I think the vitriol was a way to stop flame wars before they could really get started. Sometimes it was unneeded, but more often it was absolutely appropriate.
It said way more about Erin than it did the issue.
Oh look, lilbuddha now thinks she's an expert on British education based on reading a 16 year old PhD thesis and is accusing me of racism and/or classism without explanation. Fuck off you sanctimonious blancmange.
In fairness, @Arethosemyfeet, your comment was kind of based on an upper-middle-class white norm. Not deliberate racism and classism, of course, but lack of awareness/consideration of different norms. I thought lilbuddha explained quite well, but perhaps she was assuming more awareness on your part than was there.
To explain more fully, let's take lower/working class people. In a society where they are often treated as less worthy (often due to unquestioned assumptions people hold, rather than deliberate classism), and are not expected to succeed, a culture develops where lower class people see higher education as the domain of the richer/upper middle class people - a kind of 'not for the likes of us' mentality. Lots of very low self-esteem when it comes to schooling and academia - and because it's associated with the richer people, people who often look down on them, treat them in a snobby way, they don't want to be associated with it. They often had very negative experiences of school themselves and can see teachers as the enemy. So, quite simply, parent often simply aren't equipped to encourage and support their kids with schoolwork. Here are some additional factors: in poorer communities, parents are often exhausted doing physically exhausting work, stressed with worrying about making ends meet, and the neighbourhood is more likely to be noisy, there is more likelihood of domestic violence, families may not have the most nutritious meals, etc. So a blanket judgemental statement that it's the responsibility of all parents to be ensuring their kids have a positive attitude to maths and school in general is ignorant of the very different challenges different groups of people can face, and the huge advantages and privileges upper middle class families tend to have in this area.
To explain more fully, let's take lower/working class people. In a society where they are often treated as less worthy (often due to unquestioned assumptions people hold, rather than deliberate classism), and are not expected to succeed, a culture develops where lower class people see higher education as the domain of the richer/upper middle class people - a kind of 'not for the likes of us' mentality. Lots of very low self-esteem when it comes to schooling and academia - and because it's associated with the richer people, people who often look down on them, treat them in a snobby way, they don't want to be associated with it. They often had very negative experiences of school themselves and can see teachers as the enemy. So, quite simply, parent often simply aren't equipped to encourage and support their kids with schoolwork. Here are some additional factors: in poorer communities, parents are often exhausted doing physically exhausting work, stressed with worrying about making ends meet, and the neighbourhood is more likely to be noisy, there is more likelihood of domestic violence, families may not have the most nutritious meals, etc. So a blanket judgemental statement that it's the responsibility of all parents to be ensuring their kids have a positive attitude to maths and school in general is ignorant of the very different challenges different groups of people can face, and the huge advantages and privileges upper middle class families tend to have in this area.
That spin involves reading blame into responsibility. I'm aware of all those drivers. My point was that those things can and do lead to lower attainment. The solution is dealing with poverty, not beating teachers for failing to overcome those barriers erected by our economic and social system. Yes, some parents can do more. Even biting your tongue when you're tempted to say "oh, I was rubbish at maths" would help. It's not classist to describe how things are.
. So a blanket judgemental statement that it's the responsibility of all parents to be ensuring their kids have a positive attitude to maths and school in general is ignorant of the very different challenges different groups of people can face, and the huge advantages and privileges upper middle class families tend to have in this area.
You seriously think that only upper-middle class families should have the responsibility to give their kids a positive attitude to maths in school?
Your whole argument seems to be a variation of "working class people are bigger thugs (domestic violence) and generally thicker (can't cook well) than the middle classes. They spend a day down the mines (so no shop workers, unemployed etc), doff their forelocks to their 'betters' so much that they aren't fully emotionally developed (low self esteem)."
Plenty of working class people in working class communities don't struggle with what you listed. On the other hand plenty do have to deal with all of the problems you listed and still try to instill a positive attitude to school in their kids.
The alternative is to look to "the upper middle classes" to "rescue" working class kids, because their parents and culture is deficient.
. So a blanket judgemental statement that it's the responsibility of all parents to be ensuring their kids have a positive attitude to maths and school in general is ignorant of the very different challenges different groups of people can face, and the huge advantages and privileges upper middle class families tend to have in this area.
You seriously think that only upper-middle class families should have the responsibility to give their kids a positive attitude to maths in school?
Your whole argument seems to be a variation of "working class people are bigger thugs (domestic violence) and generally thicker (can't cook well) than the middle classes. They spend a day down the mines (so no shop workers, unemployed etc), doff their forelocks to their 'betters' so much that they aren't fully emotionally developed (low self esteem)."
Plenty of working class people in working class communities don't struggle with what you listed. On the other hand plenty do have to deal with all of the problems you listed and still try to instill a positive attitude to school in their kids.
The alternative is to look to "the upper middle classes" to "rescue" working class kids, because their parents and culture is deficient.
There are plenty of middle-class people who experience domestic violence, have exhausting jobs, don't have a clue how to cook a meal and see it as being the school's job to motivate their kids to do well. The drivers for why people from different backgrounds interact with education may be different, but the outcomes are the same.
One of Rev T's church placements was in one of the poorest housing estates in Europe - 20 minutes down the road from where I grew up. The main difference between me and the women I met there was the expectations that society had for them. Staying on at school then going to university v leaving school early to get a job plus some social norms about the age you had kids. I was the only woman my age there who wasn't a grandmother.
There was no difference in brain power. Hell, most of them were way smarter than me! Many of them were re-entering education as they wanted qualifications etc and saw them as a passport to a better life for both them and their kids. Many of them were pushing their kids hard to do well at school as well.
. So a blanket judgemental statement that it's the responsibility of all parents to be ensuring their kids have a positive attitude to maths and school in general is ignorant of the very different challenges different groups of people can face, and the huge advantages and privileges upper middle class families tend to have in this area.
You seriously think that only upper-middle class families should have the responsibility to give their kids a positive attitude to maths in school?
Your whole argument seems to be a variation of "working class people are bigger thugs (domestic violence) and generally thicker (can't cook well) than the middle classes. T
If you think that is what fineline wrote, you are a disgrace to whatever educational system you went through.
All she is saying is that education is aimed at the middle class and the realities of the working class mean that they will not see the best benefit from that.
Erin had a lot to do with the ethos of the boards and played an instrumental role in fending off at least one attack that could easily have sunk the Ship in its early days. If the Ship is still sailing at a time when many other forums have disappeared, it's in no small part a testimony to the robustness of what she put in place.
So basically @Arethosemyfeet you came here to argue with my argument and rag on @lilbuddha because you didn't want to have to actually argue? Kind of fits with your habit of avoiding answering my posts except to say "Oh but it's different in Britain!" I bet it's absolutely perfect in Britain. Well, guess what, it was fine in Purgatory too. And don't pretend you are just mad at lilbuddha. I was the first person to discuss math on that thread except for those boasting of their math qualifications or lacks thereof. Your argument is with me too. Or it should be if you'd stop slithering away.
...Your whole argument seems to be a variation of "working class people... doff their forelocks to their 'betters' so much that they aren't fully emotionally developed (low self esteem)." ...
[pedant alert] Not to argue with your basic points, [Deleted User], but anyone "doff(ing) their forelocks" has to be wearing a wig. To be properly servile, one must tug one's forelock.
So basically @Arethosemyfeet you came here to argue with my argument and rag on @lilbuddha because you didn't want to have to actually argue? Kind of fits with your habit of avoiding answering my posts except to say "Oh but it's different in Britain!" I bet it's absolutely perfect in Britain. Well, guess what, it was fine in Purgatory too. And don't pretend you are just mad at lilbuddha. I was the first person to discuss math on that thread except for those boasting of their math qualifications or lacks thereof. Your argument is with me too. Or it should be if you'd stop slithering away.
It's not perfect in Britain, but the particular criticisms raised are not relevant to the UK. I think your comment blaming underperformance in maths on teachers was fucking stupid, and said so. You didn't bother to try and support it so I argued with the person who did, in this case lilbuddha who keeps pontificating about something she knows nothing about and wriggles away every time an attempt is made to pin her down to anything other than vague assertion.
You clearly didn't read it very well then. Because no I don't blame the teachers. I blamed the school system. If you think you are a whole school system, you have bigger ego issues than I thought. It's the system that gives schools money based on testing scores. It's the system that often pays teachers better if their students do better. It's the system that doesn't value teachers nearly enough and often doesn't pay them enough. You get what you pay for often.
I did support it but you didn't like my answer because it was complex and logical. You ignored my answer and my question until lilbuddha asked something similar. I reminded you that I would like an answer to that question too. And you finally answered lilb. Between my explanations and others' you have been told what I meant eleventy-billion and one times. Might help if you started listening.
You clearly didn't read it very well then. Because no I don't blame the teachers. I blamed the school system. If you think you are a whole school system, you have bigger ego issues than I thought. It's the system that gives schools money based on testing scores. It's the system that often pays teachers better if their students do better. It's the system that doesn't value teachers nearly enough and often doesn't pay them enough. You get what you pay for often.
I did support it but you didn't like my answer because it was complex and logical. You ignored my answer and my question until lilbuddha asked something similar. I reminded you that I would like an answer to that question too. And you finally answered lilb. Between my explanations and others' you have been told what I meant eleventy-billion and one times. Might help if you started listening.
If you don't say what you mean then write something different later to cover your arse then you can't blame people for reacting to what you originally wrote. Here it is again:
and their teachers failed them
Note the "and". If you want to apologise and say that's not what you meant, fine, but it is what you wrote.
And I didn't ignore your response, I pointed out that those things might be true where you are but they aren't true where I am but we still have the same problems with attainment in maths so they're unlikely to be the issue (we don't have payment by results either for schools or teachers). Value is hard to measure but pay is certainly higher, on average, in the UK than in the US.
Teachers here get more pay by sticking around (experience) and taking on more roles (responsibility).
It's been the teaching unions that have vigorously resisted payment by results, because they can see not only that it will fail pupils, but also staff.
We're working with different systems and talking past each other on this is not helping.
IMO, ego is always part of the problem. If someone mentions an issue with one's own profession, the automatic reaction is to retaliate rather than listen. We can see there is a fucking problem in education, blaming the parents is a cop-out. If teachers are not there to bridge the gap between what a student gets from home and what they need to learn, then we might as well just use audio books and Youtube.
So basically @Arethosemyfeet you came here to argue with my argument and rag on @lilbuddha because you didn't want to have to actually argue? Kind of fits with your habit of avoiding answering my posts except to say "Oh but it's different in Britain!" I bet it's absolutely perfect in Britain. Well, guess what, it was fine in Purgatory too. And don't pretend you are just mad at lilbuddha. I was the first person to discuss math on that thread except for those boasting of their math qualifications or lacks thereof. Your argument is with me too. Or it should be if you'd stop slithering away.
It's not perfect in Britain, but the particular criticisms raised are not relevant to the UK. I think your comment blaming underperformance in maths on teachers was fucking stupid, and said so. You didn't bother to try and support it so I argued with the person who did, in this case lilbuddha who keeps pontificating about something she knows nothing about and wriggles away every time an attempt is made to pin her down to anything other than vague assertion.
You want specific instructions from someone who is not a teacher and no longer in school. I know when my mechanic is failing to fix my car, even when I cannot give him instructions on how to do it.
So basically @Arethosemyfeet you came here to argue with my argument and rag on @lilbuddha because you didn't want to have to actually argue? Kind of fits with your habit of avoiding answering my posts except to say "Oh but it's different in Britain!" I bet it's absolutely perfect in Britain. Well, guess what, it was fine in Purgatory too. And don't pretend you are just mad at lilbuddha. I was the first person to discuss math on that thread except for those boasting of their math qualifications or lacks thereof. Your argument is with me too. Or it should be if you'd stop slithering away.
It's not perfect in Britain, but the particular criticisms raised are not relevant to the UK. I think your comment blaming underperformance in maths on teachers was fucking stupid, and said so. You didn't bother to try and support it so I argued with the person who did, in this case lilbuddha who keeps pontificating about something she knows nothing about and wriggles away every time an attempt is made to pin her down to anything other than vague assertion.
You want specific instructions from someone who is not a teacher and no longer in school. I know when my mechanic is failing to fix my car, even when I cannot give him instructions on how to do it.
What you're doing is complaining to your mechanic that the car doesn't get the MPG specified in the manual and demanding they fix it.
<snip>I know when my mechanic is failing to fix my car, even when I cannot give him instructions on how to do it.
You can tell whether the mechanic can get your car going or not, but if he/she can’t you may not be able to judge whether that’s the mechanic’s fault or whether, because of poor design, shoddy manufacture, or harsh use the car is not repairable.
Similarly, you can easily tell whether the mechanic can get your car going again or not, but you may not be able to tell whether he has really fixed it properly, or just botched something up to get you back on the road which is storing up problems for later.
There’s a limit to how far a teacher can compensate for wider social and cultural issues which create a barrier to learning - especially where a teacher is overseeing 30+ children in a primary setting, or even more in a secondary setting, and there only for a few hours a week.
Even if there is no home-learning (i.e. homework) component to children’s education, a child whose parents take an encouraging interest in the child’s school experience, and who value and respect a teacher’s input, is likely to do better than one whose parents think school’s mostly just a waste of time, and there’s not a lot of point in school education provided someone can read and write.
<snip>I know when my mechanic is failing to fix my car, even when I cannot give him instructions on how to do it.
You can tell whether the mechanic can get your car going or not, but if he/she can’t you may not be able to judge whether that’s the mechanic’s fault or whether, because of poor design, shoddy manufacture, or harsh use the car is not repairable.
Similarly, you can easily tell whether the mechanic can get your car going again or not, but you may not be able to tell whether he has really fixed it properly, or just botched something up to get you back on the road which is storing up problems for later.
There’s a limit to how far a teacher can compensate for wider social and cultural issues which create a barrier to learning - especially where a teacher is overseeing 30+ children in a primary setting, or even more in a secondary setting, and there only for a few hours a week.
That is failure in the system, of which the teacher is part.
Even if there is no home-learning (i.e. homework) component to children’s education, a child whose parents take an encouraging interest in the child’s school experience, and who value and respect a teacher’s input, is likely to do better than one whose parents think school’s mostly just a waste of time, and there’s not a lot of point in school education provided someone can read and write.
Of course. But the school system should make the effort to help fix that. There have always been, ans will always e, students whose parents cannot/will not help them. To leave it at that is to further the inequities in the outcomes.
Fuck off. I'm not a teacher and no longer a student. I've no ego invested in the problem.
Narrator: But she did have ego invested in the argument.
No one is saying that teachers aren't part of the solution. What those who have been teachers are saying is that being part of the solution isn't all of the solution. Poverty doesn't have to be a barrier to getting a good education (even though it often is), but everyone needs to pull together: student, parents, teachers, the school, the whole community.
I care a huge amount about education, so I'm definitely invested. But that doesn't mean it'll be easy to fix, and yes the reason I keep saying "school system," which @Arethosemyfeet magically translates into "teachers"--guess what, teachers aren't the only people in the whole fucking school system--is because I am very aware the teachers can't fix it by themselves. It will take social workers, nurses, principals, administrators, budget makers, and law makers at the very least. The fact that it's not an easy solution in no way invalidates my original statement that if a student is multiple grades behind in math, the school system has failed them somewhere. (And yes, their parents may well have failed them too. I'm sure that differs in different cases.)
I care a huge amount about education, so I'm definitely invested. But that doesn't mean it'll be easy to fix, and yes the reason I keep saying "school system," which @Arethosemyfeet magically translates into "teachers"--guess what, teachers aren't the only people in the whole fucking school system--is because I am very aware the teachers can't fix it by themselves. It will take social workers, nurses, principals, administrators, budget makers, and law makers at the very least. The fact that it's not an easy solution in no way invalidates my original statement that if a student is multiple grades behind in math, the school system has failed them somewhere. (And yes, their parents may well have failed them too. I'm sure that differs in different cases.)
If you'd just said the school system, sure. But you didn't did you? You said "and teachers".
And teachers are definitely part of the problem. For instnace there's this teacher somewhere in Britain who seems to have trouble with the the word "and." It doesn't help that he thinks all teachers are perfect. So if you say "Teachers and the school system" he seems to think that means only teachers suck. His lack of understanding of "and" sure worries me about his students. And he is so very defensive that I do wonder what's he's worried about sometimes.
I will give you another story of a teacher who is not a bad person but is part of the problem:
I remember when I was a tutor watching one of my favorite students come up. She was poor, African American, and already at 10 years old quite behind but she really worked hard and I was proud of her. She came up to ask me for help while her teacher was chatting at me. She waited patiently until Teacher was done, but her teacher just kept talking about some blond haired blue-eyed girl who looked so perfect in a full length fur coat. I heard about the color of the fur coat. I heard about the length of the fur coat. Still the student waited. I gestured that she was waiting but the teacher just told her to wait and then went on to discuss the way the girl's hair had looked in the coat. My student turned around and just left. It was so clear that she had heard and realized she would never matter compared to that. She couldn't be that blond-haired blue-eyed girl, well-coated girl, visually, financially, or culturally.
@Gwai - there is a thing called dyscalculia which is only just being recognised, but is a form of difficulties with maths and figures similar to that of dyslexia. That's first of all going to need recognition and then a lot of remedial work and support, and that is in short supply in UK schools with the funding cuts from the current Government. (It was something I was trying to preemptively identify through the CATS* scores when I was a SENCo†)
And then there are the children who have such learning difficulties that with the best will in the world, no teacher or school system is going to move them into fluency in mathematics. I have had the misfortune to work with two young men, both of secondary school age, neither of whom could understand that counting meant adding one on, and until they understood how the number system worked, there was no way that they could add or subtract, let alone multiply or divide. They could both recite numbers but ask them to count out a number of pencils or counters, they looked at me blankly and I got a random number. (One could count objects reliably to 8 when I'd finished painfully slowly working with him for 6 months. He could also recognise various simple shapes and could pay for a drink when given the right money.)
But neither of those students came to me with any understanding of their difficulties, they were known to struggle with maths, but nobody had sat with them to work out the root of the comprehension problems. (I had a fellow tutor tell me that the second boy needed to work on multiplication. He hadn't worked back far enough to realise he didn't understand numbers at all.)
* cognitive assessment tests - carried out on entry in many secondary schools as the national SATS (school assessment tasks) are more a measure of the schools than the child;
† school special needs co-ordinator.
And teachers are definitely part of the problem. For instnace there's this teacher somewhere in Britain who seems to have trouble with the the word "and." It doesn't help that he thinks all teachers are perfect. So if you say "Teachers and the school system" he seems to think that means only teachers suck. His lack of understanding of "and" sure worries me about his students. And he is so very defensive that I do wonder what's he's worried about sometimes.
Interesting. Where did you encounter this mythical teacher?
Fuck off. I'm not a teacher and no longer a student. I've no ego invested in the problem.
Recognizing that Doc Tor already snarked at this, but you do recognize the degree to which every single conversation you participate in seems to be an ego project? Indeed, your fundamental mode is one of "peak correctness" with only the most vestigial ability to acknowledge anyone else being right, and no apparent ability to concede anything ever.
Fuck off. I'm not a teacher and no longer a student. I've no ego invested in the problem.
Recognizing that Doc Tor already snarked at this, but you do recognize the degree to which every single conversation you participate in seems to be an ego project? Indeed, your fundamental mode is one of "peak correctness" with only the most vestigial ability to acknowledge anyone else being right, and no apparent ability to concede anything ever.
[Waits patiently to be told how this is wrong.]
Do I have an ego? Yes. Is it involved in every discussion on these forums? No.
A huge problem here is projection.
Another thing. One reason I have not participated in my hell thread is the avoidance of dealing with the topic in favour of diminishing it by attacking me. Can I be a pain in the arse? Yes. Does it change the relevance of my arguments? No.
So you can both deal with the issue or piss off. I don't care which.
Fuck off. I'm not a teacher and no longer a student. I've no ego invested in the problem.
Narrator: But she did have ego invested in the argument.
No one is saying that teachers aren't part of the solution. What those who have been teachers are saying is that being part of the solution isn't all of the solution. Poverty doesn't have to be a barrier to getting a good education (even though it often is), but everyone needs to pull together: student, parents, teachers, the school, the whole community.
Arethosemy feet pushes the burden more towards the parents than reality warrants. Parents who cannot/will not participate have always been part of the mix.
Once again:If teachers are not there to bridge the gap between what a student gets from home and what they need to learn, then we might as well just use audio books and Youtube.
Fuck off. I'm not a teacher and no longer a student. I've no ego invested in the problem.
Narrator: But she did have ego invested in the argument.
No one is saying that teachers aren't part of the solution. What those who have been teachers are saying is that being part of the solution isn't all of the solution. Poverty doesn't have to be a barrier to getting a good education (even though it often is), but everyone needs to pull together: student, parents, teachers, the school, the whole community.
Arethosemy feet pushes the burden more towards the parents than reality warrants. Parents who cannot/will not participate have always been part of the mix.
Once again:If teachers are not there to bridge the gap between what a student gets from home and what they need to learn, then we might as well just use audio books and Youtube.
You're missing (deliberately, obviously - whether it's for the hyperbole or genuine Dunning-Krueger) two essential and immovable factors.
Firstly, the student may be actually thick as mince. If the teacher - more commonly the TA - is able to get them to the point where they can count the correct change from a note, that is a fucking win right there.
Secondly, teachers can do nothing about the home situation of every child they teach. Unless they adopt them. And it has happened. But not 30 kids, each year, every year.
Your demands? Expectations? are so wildly and wilfully ludicrous as to defy reason and reality.
You won't back down from this, because you never do, but Sweet Jesus, just volunteer in a school and see how it works.
@Doc Tor: "Firstly, the student may be actually thick as mince. If the teacher - more commonly the TA - is able to get them to the point where they can count the correct change from a note, that is a fucking win right there."
And that's been my objection to League Tables ever since they were first introduced - they ignore the individual. For one student a C grade is a triumph, for another it's a disaster.
@Curiosity killed Totally true. And there are certainly students who are way behind and it's not anyone's fault, or other students who are way behind and it's the fault of some particular person who isn't in the school system. But when we have 81% of African American and Hispanic 9 year olds behind in the U.S.A? That's fucked up, and they're definitely not getting the help they deserve. Hell the whole country owes those kids better than they're getting.
If you don't say what you mean then write something different later to cover your arse then you can't blame people for reacting to what you originally wrote. Here it is again:
and their teachers failed them
Note the "and". If you want to apologise and say that's not what you meant, fine, but it is what you wrote.
Well, I pointed out on the thread very specifically that @Gwai did not say what you were paraphrasing her as having said, and you totally ignored that post too.
Once again: you weren’t reacting to what she originally wrote. You picked one phrase, reacted to that, and ignored the rest.
You evidently have a lot of experience, a lot of useful insight and a lot of knowledge, which is great, and helpful. But with that, you’re coming over as a know-it-all who is dismissing anyone who has a slightly different perspective than you.
@Gwai - currently in England and Wales within schools there is extra funding available for disadvantaged pupils, the pupil premium and/or extra money attached to certain students with additional needs, theoretically ring fenced*. OFSTED (the schools inspection service) as part of the regular inspections checks how that funding is used and compares the progress of all groups against the general progress in the school. Schools have to monitor this progress to be able to demonstrate they are meeting the needs of all students to pass the OFSTED inspections (which goal posts move with depressing frequency). Schools that fail are forced to become academies and often taken over by academy trusts (part of this Government's obsession with private companies achieving more than public).
Internally in schools, the headteacher and senior management team will be responsible for driving up achievement with the board of governors. How much that pressure translates down to individual teachers varies, but it means there is often very little flexibility in how teachers teach their classes, to ensure they meet the academy's guidelines and curriculum.
There are regular reports on underachieving groups and how to meet their needs. A lot of work over the last 20 years or more has gone into the sink schools in London that were failing their students, and now most of those schools are doing better with the schools that are doing less well outside London. The group that is generally not doing so well is white working class boys in the UK. Schools are expected to be abreast of this research and implementing it, or at least showing they are doing something about the identified needs.
It's all becoming very much a sausage factory and students that don't fit are often forced out. I've been working in the sector that picks up the rejects for the last decade or more.
* this was part of the statementing system where students had statements of special educational needs, now replaced by Education Health and Care Plans, EHCPs, which are supposed to identify student's needs, the ways to manage those needs and set targets to be achieved, but chronic underfunding has cut much of the additional support to manage the needs.
If you don't say what you mean then write something different later to cover your arse then you can't blame people for reacting to what you originally wrote. Here it is again:
and their teachers failed them
Note the "and". If you want to apologise and say that's not what you meant, fine, but it is what you wrote.
Well, I pointed out on the thread very specifically that @Gwai did not say what you were paraphrasing her as having said, and you totally ignored that post too.
Yep. @Arethosemyfeet, you wonder why I'm not bothering to argue you? It's because I get more logic and understanding from my child's cat. Cherrypicking quotes nonsenically is not impressive, and it's a waste of my time.
I've been a "teacher" (however defined, and let me assure you that I feel far less able to define "teacher " today than when I began eons ago) of college-level freshman English comp for 25 years.
Am I a good "teacher?" Or a good "teacher of English composition?" What does this question mean? What exactly are we asking here? I wish I knew.
Are we asking, "What percentage of students who pass Ohher's one-semester (yep, that's all they give us) English comp course can produce a clear, understandable, organized, detailed response to a question in academically-acceptable English prose?"
If that's what we're asking, here's the answer: in my experience, everyone who enters my course (it's required) already able to write clear, academically-acceptable English leaves the course still able to do this. The percentage varies from one semester to the next, but I'd guess about 15-20% of students fall into this A to B- category.
The other 80-85%? Mind you, the vast majority of these students are native speakers of English who know no other language (assuming, as I force myself to assume, they can be said to "know" this one).
I do understand that we have no right to demand, or even hope, that adult students will value precisely what we value to the same extent or in the same ways that we do. But our collective and widespread failure -- indeed refusal -- to pass on some semblance of respect for the possibilities language -- any language -- offers the human imagination simply bewilders me.
@Gwai - there is a thing called dyscalculia which is only just being recognised, but is a form of difficulties with maths and figures similar to that of dyslexia. That's first of all going to need recognition and then a lot of remedial work and support, and that is in short supply in UK schools with the funding cuts from the current Government. (It was something I was trying to preemptively identify through the CATS* scores when I was a SENCo†)
And then there are the children who have such learning difficulties that with the best will in the world, no teacher or school system is going to move them into fluency in mathematics. I have had the misfortune to work with two young men, both of secondary school age, neither of whom could understand that counting meant adding one on, and until they understood how the number system worked, there was no way that they could add or subtract, let alone multiply or divide. They could both recite numbers but ask them to count out a number of pencils or counters, they looked at me blankly and I got a random number. (One could count objects reliably to 8 when I'd finished painfully slowly working with him for 6 months. He could also recognise various simple shapes and could pay for a drink when given the right money.)
But neither of those students came to me with any understanding of their difficulties, they were known to struggle with maths, but nobody had sat with them to work out the root of the comprehension problems. (I had a fellow tutor tell me that the second boy needed to work on multiplication. He hadn't worked back far enough to realise he didn't understand numbers at all.)
* cognitive assessment tests - carried out on entry in many secondary schools as the national SATS (school assessment tasks) are more a measure of the schools than the child;
† school special needs co-ordinator.
Fuck off. I'm not a teacher and no longer a student. I've no ego invested in the problem.
Do not kid yourself for one instant longer. You have ego, massive quantities of ego, invested in Every.Word.You.Write.
I could continue, but my life is too short to waste on explanations that will just be rudely disputed (because rude disputations are among your specialties).
@Gwai - there is a thing called dyscalculia which is only just being recognised, but is a form of difficulties with maths and figures similar to that of dyslexia. <snip>
Shorthand for being recognised in schools. Dyslexia has been known in the literature since 1877, but it was only officially recognised as a language processing difficulty in 1987. Children with dyslexia at school in the 1950s and 1960s were regarded as lazy and not trying hard enough.
In the early 90s students with dyslexia were given extra time in public exams. I remember some senior members of staff saying, "Why not give all the stupid kids more time?" It horrifies me looking back.
I’m dyslexic. I was at school in the 60s and I was considered dim. The teachers were extremely kind and sat me at the back to colour in.
One teacher wasn’t kind. He whacked me on the hand with a ruler every time I made a mistake. Interestingly my brain didn’t learn any better when my hand was red and stinging!
Every. Single. Report. said - very kindly - “If Boogie put in more effort she would do better.” “Boogie shows potential, but needs to try harder.”
That was galling because the effort I put in was ten times that of the other pupils. Learning German now, I do three hours to everyone else’s half hour.
I’d love those same teachers to have seen me leading 500 pupils in assembly as deputy headteacher and running borough wide courses in behaviour management and ICT as an advanced skills teacher.
The other 80-85%? Mind you, the vast majority of these students are native speakers of English who know no other language (assuming, as I force myself to assume, they can be said to "know" this one).
I do understand that we have no right to demand, or even hope, that adult students will value precisely what we value to the same extent or in the same ways that we do. But our collective and widespread failure -- indeed refusal -- to pass on some semblance of respect for the possibilities language -- any language -- offers the human imagination simply bewilders me.
This made me laugh. I used to spend a lot of time covering lab scripts with red pen, mostly trying to help people like this write an acceptable one. I ought to take my own advice when writing here, which was mostly 'don't say 'I', reference everything, and remember that no-one gives a shit what _you_ think!' Instead I continue as they did, sounding like a primary-school weekend news report. 'First, I connected the signal generator to the amplifier. And then...and then...'
ETA - Oddly, the wealthy students from Gulf oil states about whom (now look, I've become self-conscious) I've been complaining elsewhere, speak excellent English. They're clearly clever people, until someone asks them to add two integers or to use a tape measure.
The other 80-85%? Mind you, the vast majority of these students are native speakers of English who know no other language (assuming, as I force myself to assume, they can be said to "know" this one).
I do understand that we have no right to demand, or even hope, that adult students will value precisely what we value to the same extent or in the same ways that we do. But our collective and widespread failure -- indeed refusal -- to pass on some semblance of respect for the possibilities language -- any language -- offers the human imagination simply bewilders me.
This made me laugh. I used to spend a lot of time covering lab scripts with red pen, mostly trying to help people like this write an acceptable one. I ought to take my own advice when writing here, which was mostly 'don't say 'I', reference everything, and remember that no-one gives a shit what _you_ think!' Instead I continue as they did, sounding like a primary-school weekend news report. 'First, I connected the signal generator to the amplifier. And then...and then...'
ETA - Oddly, the wealthy students from Gulf oil states about whom (now look, I've become self-conscious) I've been complaining elsewhere, speak excellent English. They're clearly clever people, until someone asks them to add two integers or to use a tape measure.
I supervised a lab which took those who needed an extra science credit in order to access the medicine course (and become actual doctors). I just hope to God that they have a competent nurse or pharmacist working out the dosages of drugs that are based on body weight.
Comments
Name a single issue she got significantly wrong.
That spin involves reading blame into responsibility. I'm aware of all those drivers. My point was that those things can and do lead to lower attainment. The solution is dealing with poverty, not beating teachers for failing to overcome those barriers erected by our economic and social system. Yes, some parents can do more. Even biting your tongue when you're tempted to say "oh, I was rubbish at maths" would help. It's not classist to describe how things are.
You seriously think that only upper-middle class families should have the responsibility to give their kids a positive attitude to maths in school?
Your whole argument seems to be a variation of "working class people are bigger thugs (domestic violence) and generally thicker (can't cook well) than the middle classes. They spend a day down the mines (so no shop workers, unemployed etc), doff their forelocks to their 'betters' so much that they aren't fully emotionally developed (low self esteem)."
Plenty of working class people in working class communities don't struggle with what you listed. On the other hand plenty do have to deal with all of the problems you listed and still try to instill a positive attitude to school in their kids.
The alternative is to look to "the upper middle classes" to "rescue" working class kids, because their parents and culture is deficient.
Fuck off. Try harder. Engage brain before engaging default.
There are plenty of middle-class people who experience domestic violence, have exhausting jobs, don't have a clue how to cook a meal and see it as being the school's job to motivate their kids to do well. The drivers for why people from different backgrounds interact with education may be different, but the outcomes are the same.
One of Rev T's church placements was in one of the poorest housing estates in Europe - 20 minutes down the road from where I grew up. The main difference between me and the women I met there was the expectations that society had for them. Staying on at school then going to university v leaving school early to get a job plus some social norms about the age you had kids. I was the only woman my age there who wasn't a grandmother.
There was no difference in brain power. Hell, most of them were way smarter than me! Many of them were re-entering education as they wanted qualifications etc and saw them as a passport to a better life for both them and their kids. Many of them were pushing their kids hard to do well at school as well.
All she is saying is that education is aimed at the middle class and the realities of the working class mean that they will not see the best benefit from that.
Sort of like the founder
The anti-Christ uses social media.
Thank you for your patience. [/pedant alert]
It's not perfect in Britain, but the particular criticisms raised are not relevant to the UK. I think your comment blaming underperformance in maths on teachers was fucking stupid, and said so. You didn't bother to try and support it so I argued with the person who did, in this case lilbuddha who keeps pontificating about something she knows nothing about and wriggles away every time an attempt is made to pin her down to anything other than vague assertion.
I did support it but you didn't like my answer because it was complex and logical. You ignored my answer and my question until lilbuddha asked something similar. I reminded you that I would like an answer to that question too. And you finally answered lilb. Between my explanations and others' you have been told what I meant eleventy-billion and one times. Might help if you started listening.
If you don't say what you mean then write something different later to cover your arse then you can't blame people for reacting to what you originally wrote. Here it is again: Note the "and". If you want to apologise and say that's not what you meant, fine, but it is what you wrote.
And I didn't ignore your response, I pointed out that those things might be true where you are but they aren't true where I am but we still have the same problems with attainment in maths so they're unlikely to be the issue (we don't have payment by results either for schools or teachers). Value is hard to measure but pay is certainly higher, on average, in the UK than in the US.
It's been the teaching unions that have vigorously resisted payment by results, because they can see not only that it will fail pupils, but also staff.
We're working with different systems and talking past each other on this is not helping.
What you're doing is complaining to your mechanic that the car doesn't get the MPG specified in the manual and demanding they fix it.
Similarly, you can easily tell whether the mechanic can get your car going again or not, but you may not be able to tell whether he has really fixed it properly, or just botched something up to get you back on the road which is storing up problems for later.
There’s a limit to how far a teacher can compensate for wider social and cultural issues which create a barrier to learning - especially where a teacher is overseeing 30+ children in a primary setting, or even more in a secondary setting, and there only for a few hours a week.
Even if there is no home-learning (i.e. homework) component to children’s education, a child whose parents take an encouraging interest in the child’s school experience, and who value and respect a teacher’s input, is likely to do better than one whose parents think school’s mostly just a waste of time, and there’s not a lot of point in school education provided someone can read and write.
Narrator: ... *looks pointedly at camera*
Narrator: But she did have ego invested in the argument.
No one is saying that teachers aren't part of the solution. What those who have been teachers are saying is that being part of the solution isn't all of the solution. Poverty doesn't have to be a barrier to getting a good education (even though it often is), but everyone needs to pull together: student, parents, teachers, the school, the whole community.
If you'd just said the school system, sure. But you didn't did you? You said "and teachers".
I will give you another story of a teacher who is not a bad person but is part of the problem:
I remember when I was a tutor watching one of my favorite students come up. She was poor, African American, and already at 10 years old quite behind but she really worked hard and I was proud of her. She came up to ask me for help while her teacher was chatting at me. She waited patiently until Teacher was done, but her teacher just kept talking about some blond haired blue-eyed girl who looked so perfect in a full length fur coat. I heard about the color of the fur coat. I heard about the length of the fur coat. Still the student waited. I gestured that she was waiting but the teacher just told her to wait and then went on to discuss the way the girl's hair had looked in the coat. My student turned around and just left. It was so clear that she had heard and realized she would never matter compared to that. She couldn't be that blond-haired blue-eyed girl, well-coated girl, visually, financially, or culturally.
And then there are the children who have such learning difficulties that with the best will in the world, no teacher or school system is going to move them into fluency in mathematics. I have had the misfortune to work with two young men, both of secondary school age, neither of whom could understand that counting meant adding one on, and until they understood how the number system worked, there was no way that they could add or subtract, let alone multiply or divide. They could both recite numbers but ask them to count out a number of pencils or counters, they looked at me blankly and I got a random number. (One could count objects reliably to 8 when I'd finished painfully slowly working with him for 6 months. He could also recognise various simple shapes and could pay for a drink when given the right money.)
But neither of those students came to me with any understanding of their difficulties, they were known to struggle with maths, but nobody had sat with them to work out the root of the comprehension problems. (I had a fellow tutor tell me that the second boy needed to work on multiplication. He hadn't worked back far enough to realise he didn't understand numbers at all.)
* cognitive assessment tests - carried out on entry in many secondary schools as the national SATS (school assessment tasks) are more a measure of the schools than the child;
† school special needs co-ordinator.
Interesting. Where did you encounter this mythical teacher?
Recognizing that Doc Tor already snarked at this, but you do recognize the degree to which every single conversation you participate in seems to be an ego project? Indeed, your fundamental mode is one of "peak correctness" with only the most vestigial ability to acknowledge anyone else being right, and no apparent ability to concede anything ever.
[Waits patiently to be told how this is wrong.]
A huge problem here is projection.
Another thing. One reason I have not participated in my hell thread is the avoidance of dealing with the topic in favour of diminishing it by attacking me. Can I be a pain in the arse? Yes. Does it change the relevance of my arguments? No.
So you can both deal with the issue or piss off. I don't care which.
Arethosemy feet pushes the burden more towards the parents than reality warrants. Parents who cannot/will not participate have always been part of the mix.
Once again:If teachers are not there to bridge the gap between what a student gets from home and what they need to learn, then we might as well just use audio books and Youtube.
You're missing (deliberately, obviously - whether it's for the hyperbole or genuine Dunning-Krueger) two essential and immovable factors.
Firstly, the student may be actually thick as mince. If the teacher - more commonly the TA - is able to get them to the point where they can count the correct change from a note, that is a fucking win right there.
Secondly, teachers can do nothing about the home situation of every child they teach. Unless they adopt them. And it has happened. But not 30 kids, each year, every year.
Your demands? Expectations? are so wildly and wilfully ludicrous as to defy reason and reality.
You won't back down from this, because you never do, but Sweet Jesus, just volunteer in a school and see how it works.
And that's been my objection to League Tables ever since they were first introduced - they ignore the individual. For one student a C grade is a triumph, for another it's a disaster.
Well, I pointed out on the thread very specifically that @Gwai did not say what you were paraphrasing her as having said, and you totally ignored that post too.
Once again: you weren’t reacting to what she originally wrote. You picked one phrase, reacted to that, and ignored the rest.
You evidently have a lot of experience, a lot of useful insight and a lot of knowledge, which is great, and helpful. But with that, you’re coming over as a know-it-all who is dismissing anyone who has a slightly different perspective than you.
Internally in schools, the headteacher and senior management team will be responsible for driving up achievement with the board of governors. How much that pressure translates down to individual teachers varies, but it means there is often very little flexibility in how teachers teach their classes, to ensure they meet the academy's guidelines and curriculum.
There are regular reports on underachieving groups and how to meet their needs. A lot of work over the last 20 years or more has gone into the sink schools in London that were failing their students, and now most of those schools are doing better with the schools that are doing less well outside London. The group that is generally not doing so well is white working class boys in the UK. Schools are expected to be abreast of this research and implementing it, or at least showing they are doing something about the identified needs.
It's all becoming very much a sausage factory and students that don't fit are often forced out. I've been working in the sector that picks up the rejects for the last decade or more.
* this was part of the statementing system where students had statements of special educational needs, now replaced by Education Health and Care Plans, EHCPs, which are supposed to identify student's needs, the ways to manage those needs and set targets to be achieved, but chronic underfunding has cut much of the additional support to manage the needs.
Am I a good "teacher?" Or a good "teacher of English composition?" What does this question mean? What exactly are we asking here? I wish I knew.
Are we asking, "What percentage of students who pass Ohher's one-semester (yep, that's all they give us) English comp course can produce a clear, understandable, organized, detailed response to a question in academically-acceptable English prose?"
If that's what we're asking, here's the answer: in my experience, everyone who enters my course (it's required) already able to write clear, academically-acceptable English leaves the course still able to do this. The percentage varies from one semester to the next, but I'd guess about 15-20% of students fall into this A to B- category.
The other 80-85%? Mind you, the vast majority of these students are native speakers of English who know no other language (assuming, as I force myself to assume, they can be said to "know" this one).
I do understand that we have no right to demand, or even hope, that adult students will value precisely what we value to the same extent or in the same ways that we do. But our collective and widespread failure -- indeed refusal -- to pass on some semblance of respect for the possibilities language -- any language -- offers the human imagination simply bewilders me.
Dyscalculia was in DSM-III published in 1980. Well described in 1974. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/002221947400700309
So not "just being recognized".
I could continue, but my life is too short to waste on explanations that will just be rudely disputed (because rude disputations are among your specialties).
One teacher wasn’t kind. He whacked me on the hand with a ruler every time I made a mistake. Interestingly my brain didn’t learn any better when my hand was red and stinging!
Every. Single. Report. said - very kindly - “If Boogie put in more effort she would do better.” “Boogie shows potential, but needs to try harder.”
That was galling because the effort I put in was ten times that of the other pupils. Learning German now, I do three hours to everyone else’s half hour.
I’d love those same teachers to have seen me leading 500 pupils in assembly as deputy headteacher and running borough wide courses in behaviour management and ICT as an advanced skills teacher.
This made me laugh. I used to spend a lot of time covering lab scripts with red pen, mostly trying to help people like this write an acceptable one. I ought to take my own advice when writing here, which was mostly 'don't say 'I', reference everything, and remember that no-one gives a shit what _you_ think!' Instead I continue as they did, sounding like a primary-school weekend news report. 'First, I connected the signal generator to the amplifier. And then...and then...'
ETA - Oddly, the wealthy students from Gulf oil states about whom (now look, I've become self-conscious) I've been complaining elsewhere, speak excellent English. They're clearly clever people, until someone asks them to add two integers or to use a tape measure.
I supervised a lab which took those who needed an extra science credit in order to access the medicine course (and become actual doctors). I just hope to God that they have a competent nurse or pharmacist working out the dosages of drugs that are based on body weight.