Fucking Guns

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  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Here in the US, it goes federal, state, county (that's the sheriffs), and city. Plus FBI, NSA, CIA (if they break the law and act within the US), and a bunch of other alphabet-salad names.

    I think people here might feel a bit invaded if their state handled local issues.

    I don't think anywhere else has nearly as many different police jurisdictions as the US. Does anywhere other than the US elect judges and sheriffs / police chiefs?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited October 2019
    UK now has elected police commissioners - they replaced police boards I think, but there was little public interest and voting rates are v low.

    (UK has regional police forces, from which folk can be seconded into national task forces and agencies dealing with serious and organised crime or terrorism etc - but they are not really separate agencies as such. We don’t have a national and local split per se.)
  • jbohnjbohn Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    wow. There are more coppers than I thought :)

    GK missed a few, at least in some jurisdictions - here in the sunny Twin Cities, the University of Minnesota, the Minneapolis Park Board, and Metro Transit all field their own, separate police forces...
  • That’s a good point. All of the universities I’ve attended or been to have their own police force, and that police force usually doesn’t interface well with others, for some reason.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited October 2019
    I fear two things: 1. The agressive jurisdictional fights between various branches we see on American cop shows, such as when the FBI turns up and tells the local boys, "This is our case now, go home to mommy."; and 2. Police telling people that this or that isn't in their jurisdiction, and people having to shop their information around to the various services to try and get something investigated.

    I am a complete outsider on this. My sole experience with the Police in the US was meeting a retired couple, one of whom was a former Sheriff, on a family holiday in 1980. I was 14 and had just worked out a trick to make it seem like I could solve the Rubiks Cube. This did not end well for me, some weeks later.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/23/19

    Statistics for 10/22/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 0
    Total deaths: 21
    Total injuries: 39
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • ECraigR wrote: »
    That’s a good point. All of the universities I’ve attended or been to have their own police force, and that police force usually doesn’t interface well with others, for some reason.

    Where are you from ECR? As a Brit, the idea of a university having its own police force sounds both bizarre and scary to me.
  • How would a university police force have any authority ?
  • In the USA, if you have a gun and a uniform, it seems that you have authority.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    In some cases, the gun alone suffices.
  • jbohnjbohn Shipmate
    edited October 2019
    How would a university police force have any authority ?

    The University of Minnesota is a public institution, funded by the state; its police are duly sworn law enforcement officers.

    It should be noted here that MN is a little odd as regards police licensure - a licensed police officer in MN has statewide, 24/7 powers so far as the state is concerned; limitations to jurisdiction are generally a matter of department policy. (i.e., an off-duty cop in another MN city can, legally speaking, exercise his/her police powers; they may or may not get in hot water with their superiors later.)
  • ASIS=CIA
    ASIO=NSA
    AFP=FBI
    The Aussie fed apahbet is nearly as complex as the American one.
    One difference with the US is that Australian State police do the jobs of the US State, county and city police forces.
    Another is uniformity of training. State and below training in the US is highly variable. From highly professional to barely security guard level. And, increasingly, city forces are equipped with military equipment and using it in increasingly inappropriate situations.
  • How would a university police force have any authority ?
    A quick search seems to indicate it is the same hodge-podge as city policing.

  • I had assumed it was a hyperbolic name for security guards, I hadn’t realised they were actually a separate law enforcement body - that seems insane.
  • It is. US policing standards are far too loose. Generally speaking, the larger the force, the better the training. But even that is uneven and has large inadequacies. Including the aforementioned military weapons.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/24/19

    Statistics for 10/23/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 0
    Total deaths: 29
    Total injuries: 57
    Children under 12 killed: 1, age 11
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • ECraigRECraigR Castaway
    edited October 2019
    ECraigR wrote: »
    That’s a good point. All of the universities I’ve attended or been to have their own police force, and that police force usually doesn’t interface well with others, for some reason.

    Where are you from ECR? As a Brit, the idea of a university having its own police force sounds both bizarre and scary to me.

    New England and environs, currently New York in the Capital Region, so central/upstate. It’s quite common here. University police forces can fingerprint, have armored vests and military grade firepower. Good ol ‘Merka. We don’t even bat an eye, usually, at how batty it is.

    ETA: Most of my experience is with public universities, so I don’t know if that changes things. I’ve more limited experience with private universities, though Yale has its own police force, and a few other well-funded ones I’ve encountered do as well. Who knows how it works. But they’re all duly sworn law officers. In certain parts of the world, like where I live now, you can see city police, state police, and university police all zipping around. Who knows how good they are at communicating.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    ASIS=CIA
    ASIO=NSA
    AFP=FBI
    The Aussie fed apahbet is nearly as complex as the American one.
    One difference with the US is that Australian State police do the jobs of the US State, county and city police forces.
    Another is uniformity of training. State and below training in the US is highly variable. From highly professional to barely security guard level. And, increasingly, city forces are equipped with military equipment and using it in increasingly inappropriate situations.

    ASIS and ASIO aren't regarded as police forces. They are spooks.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    ASIS=CIA
    ASIO=NSA
    AFP=FBI
    The Aussie fed apahbet is nearly as complex as the American one.
    One difference with the US is that Australian State police do the jobs of the US State, county and city police forces.
    Another is uniformity of training. State and below training in the US is highly variable. From highly professional to barely security guard level. And, increasingly, city forces are equipped with military equipment and using it in increasingly inappropriate situations.

    ASIS and ASIO aren't regarded as police forces. They are spooks.
    As are the the CIA and NSA. They were in the post you responded about America having loads of different coppers. Anyhoo, my point was to point out where Australia and the US differ.
  • Where are you from ECR? As a Brit, the idea of a university having its own police force sounds both bizarre and scary to me.

    Oxford used to have one, and AFAIK Cambridge still does, although it's probably half a century since either one did anything resembling what you'd normally call police work.
  • You’re right, colour me surprised.

    Nonetheless, actual crime - e.g. rape - would go to the Cambridgeshire police.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    I fear two things: 1. The agressive jurisdictional fights between various branches we see on American cop shows, such as when the FBI turns up and tells the local boys, "This is our case now, go home to mommy."; and 2. Police telling people that this or that isn't in their jurisdiction, and people having to shop their information around to the various services to try and get something investigated.

    Those factors contributed to the occurrence of 9/11. Various federal agencies had various pieces of the puzzle ahead of time--but *would not talk to each other*. AIUI, this was more about agency and DC (as in Washington) culture than rules and laws.

  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/25/19

    Statistics for 10/24/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 0
    Total deaths: 29
    Total injuries: 53
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/26/19

    Correction to 10/24 stats: 1 mass shooting with 2 dead, 2 injured.

    Statistics for 10/25/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 0
    Total deaths: 15
    Total injuries: 56
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/27/19

    Statistics for 10/26/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 1, with 4 injured
    Total deaths: 30
    Total injuries: 56
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    Historically, in England (not sure about Scotland which had a slightly different system) most villages would have had a constable. Towns and cities would have had more than one, probably called watchmen instead of constables. The Oxford and Cambridge University constables date back to then. Nowadays they probably just act as security guards.

    More modern universities will have security guards, but they would call in the police to deal with serious crimes. They wouldn't carry guns, but most of our police don't either.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/28/19

    Statistics for 10/27/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 1, with 1 dead and 4 injured
    Total deaths: 35
    Total injuries: 81
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    ADVANCE NOTICE re: US SHOOTINGS REPORTS

    Dear folks: As I am planning a semi-participation in NaNoWriMo for all of November (and am doing so while teaching two sections of freshman composition and managing a doc-imposed low-salt diet (meaning I must make most items from scratch -- no canned soups /other convenience foods, etc.) I will suspend posting SHOOTING REPORTS for the month. My last report postings will appear Nov. 1; one for Oct. 31 incidents and one summarizing results for the month of October.

    If any of those who have expressed interest in this reports or who follow them for devotional purposes would like to fill in the gaps thus produced, please PM me. I can send you a template, a link and some tips I've picked through my stumbles along the way.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Thank you, Ohher. I can't take over, but I appreciate all your efforts with this.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/29/19

    Statistics for 10/28/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 1, with 1 dead and 3 injured
    Total deaths: 25
    Total injuries: 54
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Three dead, nine injured, at a Halloween party last night a few blocks from where I live.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    And our city council member has sent out an email full of the usual bullshit -- "our community is strong, loving, and resilient" ... there's gonna be a vigil, call the trauma recovery center if you feel like shit because people died at a fucking Halloween party -- it's not her fault that there's nothing else she can do, but c'mon, "our community is strong, loving, and resilient"? People are dead. Others are in critical condition. Families now have gaping holes that will never be filled.

    The local press is saying many neighbors are nonchalant. This happens all the time, so it was just a matter of time before it happened here. They're not going to a vigil. And why should they?
  • I wonder if more civilians die by violence in Syria than the USA per year.
  • Depends on time scale, how you count civilians and the like.

    Absolute numbers, it's basically the same as US homicides, though.

    Population wise the US is 15 times higher so you would expect more (all else being equal, which it quite clearly isn't).
    In 2010 the murder rate was half the rate of the USA (which is about 1/200 over a lifetime)
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/30/19

    Statistics for 10/29/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 2: one with 1 dead and 3 injured; one with 3 dead and 9 injured
    Total deaths: 24
    Total injuries: 70
    Children under 12 killed: 3 from 1 family, age 7, 9, and 11
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Ruth wrote: »
    Three dead, nine injured, at a Halloween party last night a few blocks from where I live.
    Oh, Ruth, that's horrible. And the nonchalance about it is, too.

  • Ruth I would be pretty shaken up if that happened near me. I hope you are OK.
  • Thoughts with you, and apologies for the massive delay in your post sinking in.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    (Crawls out from under boatload of guilt to offer Ruth condolences for the shock she's endured)

    This reality -- the fact that it truly hits us (like Ruth) when it happens close to home and/or involves those we know -- and that that didn't happen for people interviewed for this story -- raises anew questions about posting these stats here.

    As announced earlier, I'm not posting in November, my excuse being about time (though it truthfully only takes a few minutes). The other, unstated reason is this effort's impact on my own emotional well-being. And now I'm forced to confront this issue as well: do these daily postings aid in "normalizing" gun violence? Does this relentless drum-beat of the loss of human lives cheapen it, render it routine and therefore rob it of meaning? Is it inuring us to horror? Is it doing more harm than good?

    Simon Toad has kindly volunteered to stand in for posting duties, and I will send him the info to enable this. But Ruth's post should give us all pause and re-open the question of whether this is actually worth doing at all.



  • Candles for Ruth, and her neighbourhood.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    Ruth wrote: »
    Three dead, nine injured, at a Halloween party last night a few blocks from where I live.
    Oh, Ruth, that's horrible. And the nonchalance about it is, too.

    The nonchalance is heavily disputed. There are some who have shrugged it off. There are plenty of others who went to the vigil last night at the Catholic church just a block away. And some of this is a Long Beach vs. Los Angeles thing -- the LA Times published an op-ed piece saying no one noticed this, and some locals agree, but the LB Post is not saying that. The LB Post writers live here, and several of them stayed up all night reporting the story, and then one reported the vigil, and today she's reporting on the identities of the victims. I'm sure they'll continue to cover the story, as the shooter or shooters -- no one knows if it was one or two! -- remain at large. The LA Times reporters just showed up in Long Beach the morning after the shooting, as best I can tell from the news story they filed, and went to the police press conference. We're used to be ignored by LA and by the LA Times, but the Reagan library not getting burned was a bigger story to the Times that day than 12 people getting shot, with 3 dying. So fuck them.

    The family of the man who hosted the party is Cambodian. His mother survived the Khmer Rouge genocide. She's not nonchalant.
    Ohher wrote: »
    Statistics for 10/29/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 2: one with 1 dead and 3 injured; one with 3 dead and 9 injured
    Total deaths: 24
    Total injuries: 70
    Children under 12 killed: 3 from 1 family, age 7, 9, and 11
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.

    Bold: in my town, in a safe neighborhood near me, on a street I've walked on countless times. "Blood everywhere," said those who survived.
  • Ditto.
  • How would a university police force have any authority ?
    They are provincial peace officers here. Same authority as any other municipal police force, or the RCMP who are the provincial police force here. We've also got conservation officers who have the same authority though focussed on wildlife and land. The weirdest ones in Canada in my opinion are the CN Police and CP Police, Canadian National Railway and Canadian Pacific Railway both have federally authorized police, again with all of the authority of any police officer.

  • jbohnjbohn Shipmate
    edited October 2019
    The weirdest ones in Canada in my opinion are the CN Police and CP Police, Canadian National Railway and Canadian Pacific Railway both have federally authorized police, again with all of the authority of any police officer.

    US, too - railway police are duly authorized to use all police powers on matters concerning the railway they are employed by (I'm pretty sure both CN and CP have police in their US operations).
  • We have the British Transport Police, although they only do Railways (all operators) and some local light rail services (most notably the London Underground). I suppose railways got their own forces as they often cross so many geographical jurisdictions.
  • US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/31/19

    Statistics for 10/30/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 1: 4 dead (PA)
    Total deaths: 31
    Total injuries: 53
    Children under 12 killed: 1
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.

    Lord Jesus Christ,Son of God, Have mercy on us.
  • Time difference makes it a bit weird, so give me a chance to get used to it. Man, it hurt doing it this time.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Ditto.
    This was meant to go right after Robert Armin's post--which was what showed after I posted.

  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Time difference makes it a bit weird, so give me a chance to get used to it. Man, it hurt doing it this time.

    Yeah. It gets to one. Thank you, Simon -- I meant to do this tonight and tomorrow, and you've let me off the hook.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    I am hoping and praying I've made some enormous addition error, but my currant total of US gun deaths for October comes to 785. My apologies, but I am simply not up to summarizing the injuries. Please forgive and excuse me.
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