I am wondering if he went for a run at the same time each day it might help. He might try couch to 5k but it is not about getting fit. It builds routine and it also gives him exercise and exposes him to natural daylight. I find days when I have enough* exercise I can get to sleep more easily than on days when I do not. I also find that exposure to daylight helps with sleep timing. He needs to do it away from bedtime so perhaps on first getting up in the morning.
Another thing you could do is see if getting him to use a daylight alarm clock (don't bother with the expensive the cheap ones will do) as this will tune him to waking with the light.
*enough works out for me at about walking a mile to two miles.
It is very common for people with an owl body clock and without a set routine to drift into later and later bedtimes, knocking on into later and later rising ...
I can totally identify with that. D. and I are both "owls" by nature, and because most days neither of us has to be anywhere by a set time, our bedtimes (and waking up times) can get very silly indeed.
I know in my head I'm not doing myself any favours, but it's hard to break a bad habit.
When I posted on Monday, I expected the Loon home on Tuesday. However, there has been a problem with his sertraline prescription; he expected to collect it last week, but the pharmacy didn't have it, but said to come back on Tues. They still didn't have it yesterday, which meant he couldn't head home. The pharmacy have said they'll have it this afternoon, too late for him to come home today. I'm really hoping it gets sorted out today; he runs out of his current prescription on Friday.
(He knows I'm posting here, but isn't planning to read it till he comes home).
NEQ I know that you are afraid that your advice, given already, won't be of much help. But don't forget he is coming home to you, so he must think that you are able to be helpful, and that hope is based on the past, however imperfect you may think your help has been.
--I take it he's at college/uni? Is there an on-campus clinic? If so, they might have experience in this with other students.
--Medication timing: Dealing with severe depression, I wound up with a large dose of Zoloft/sertraline at night, and a smaller dose midday. The larger dose at bedtime was evidently atypical. However, it helped my sleep. It didn't necessarily make me sleep *more*; but insomnia didn't wear me out as much. It smoothed things out somewhat.
My situation has shifted, due to other health problems. One is Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome (CFIDS/CFS/ME). There's a running joke in the Chronic Fatigue community that it's like having insomnia and narcolepsy and the same time.
But the Zoloft/sertraline still helps.
--Sometimes, certain sounds can help in a similar way. Back when I was sorting all this out, I found that I desperately needed distraction when I couldn't get to sleep. Otherwise, my mind would sort of gnaw on itself. With some experimenting, I found that nature/environmental sounds helped if played all night. Mostly ocean. The rhythm is soothing, and I love the ocean.
Eventually, I found that having the radio on all night helped, too, and I didn't have to worry about the cassette tape (back then) running out. I usually have NPR (like the BBC) on all night--the volume somewhere between low enough not to really wake me up, and loud enough to actually follow what's being said, if I choose.
--Sometimes, slow breathing and meditation can help, even if it's just a minute or so at a time.
--YouTube has all sorts of audio/visual nature recordings. Many are set to run for 11 hours! A YT search on "ocean sounds no music" finds many good ones.
--OnlineClock.net is a really cool resource, with many functions available. I use it for the alarm clock system and the video backgrounds. IME, it takes a little tinkering to get how it works. And it tends to create a new page if you click on an option. But it's fun. I usually need to set multiple alarms, one way or another; and if I need something extra, I use the site and leave my computer on all night. Bonus is that if I need help relaxing/sleeping, I can watch the video backgrounds: aquarium, rain, fireplace, etc.
--Note about blue computer light at night: one of the things I love about Windows 10 is the Night Light function. I can set it to redden the light on a schedule. Much easier on my eyes.
--Neither a doctor nor a parent; but, from my experience and various news stories, ISTM that he may have a hormonal imbalance. E.g. Many teenagers are wired for sleeping in, and many schools are adjusting schedules to allow for that.
It may not be that he's doing anything "wrong", making poor choices, not buckling down, etc. Maybe there are physical things going on that keep him from doing what he "should", when he "should".
After much running around, he got his sertraline. However, he's decided it would make more sense to come home next week now.
He's not at uni; he graduated in 2017. He's a self-employed writer, who is still young enough to be happy with a "starving artist" lifestyle. He's a good cook and he eats well, though cheaply. Eating at erratic times is an issue, though, and because each day is configured differently depending on when he wakes, naps and goes to sleep, some days have two breakfasts and some have none etc. If he could sort the sleep, the meals would fall into place.
I definitely don't think that he's not "buckling down" I think he's putting a huge amount of effort into his life, but he's not getting much payback. I put no effort into sleeping, and generally very little effort into staying awake (I might nod off after a big meal). He's actually putting effort into both, but it's still not working out for him.
Apologies for any offense. Your comments about being baffled and such seemed, to me in the middle of the night, like you might be thinking "well, if he'd just do X", as many parents think. Or as people often do when someone they care about does something they don't understand, and are worried about them.
FWIW, I can relate to his erratic schedule, somewhat. I sleep much of the time, and can drop off for hours without warning. It's hard for me to manage my many meds because of that, and because of usually having low energy. My meal times are very erratic for the same reasons, and also due to some gastro issues. So if I'm awake, and have the energy to take meds, and can remember to do so, I still have to figure out whether my insides can cope with them. Etc.
I have issues with sleep too - too little sleep, too much sleep... It's a thing with people who live with bi-polar I think. I have no answers. On the plus side, I don't have problems with jet lag, whereas my wife suffers terribly. I also work nights, so that doesn't help with routine.
I wonder if there might be a compromise between lack of routine and not seeing it (sleep) as a problem? I'm not really sure what I mean, other than perhaps trying little changes to lifestyle to get some semblence of order, medication and/or counselling and not focusing on the sleep as a big issue. Kind of like finding something you lost when you stop looking?
Anyway, this sleeping bizzo is something that started around Uni for me too. I wish your son all the best.
I worded it badly, Golden Key. I'm baffled as to how I can help. And I wonder if this is something which I neglected when he was younger.
The Loon's first episode of disrupted sleeping happened when he was about 10 or 11. The Fire Brigade made a visit to his school, and showed them a film about a (fictitious) family whose house caught fire in the middle of the night (electrical fault). The family - father, mother, son, daughter and the dog all died. His teacher said she could see he was finding this distressing, and swithered about taking him out of class, but didn't.
Anyway, he couldn't sleep through the night for the next couple of weeks - he was falling asleep over his desk at school, because he said he felt "safe" to sleep while his teacher and the rest of the class were awake, but, as the Fire Brigade had helpfully pointed out, it wasn't safe to go to sleep when your parents were also asleep. And if your house has electricity (why yes! ours does!) then it is at risk of burning down while you and your family are in it.
After a grim couple of weeks, he started to sleep through again, and stay awake in class, but I'd say it took almost 18 months before he was completely relaxed about it. And I wonder if this set a pattern of anxiety and weird sleeping, so that in future if he was anxious, the disrupted sleep kicked in, and whether we, his parents, should have been pro-active in some way then.
Meh! Parenting! It's supposed to get easier once they've left home!
When I was at University I had a friend whose sleep cycle was something like 40 hours long. She probably averaged 8 hours sleep per day but on a given day she might be up all day or sleeping for 14 hours during the day. Not saying this because there is any advice there but also so you know that odd sleeping patterns do occur in other people as well.
I find audiobooks and sleep stories helpful with getting to sleep sometimes. But sometimes its staying asleep or quality of sleep thats the hard part. Routine does help but can be hard to establish when you are on your own.
My anxiety and panic attacks are getting worse...I almost lost it yesterday when I found out I had lost my bank card. My heart was racing and I couldn't breathe...even booking plane tickets is causing me anguish. I have an appointment with the doctor on Friday, but I am panicking about that now!!
I have a thought. IANAD, but doctors sometimes have people do "sleep studies". AIUI, they're in a (hospital?) facility overnight, hooked up to monitors while they sleep. Gives the docs a chance to see brain patterns and such.
May the peace and joy of Easter bring some comfort in these times of distress. :votive:
(although personally I get rather anxious in the intensity and large-congregation-sizes of Easter Sunday services...I like a 'quieter' service...)
Anxiety is really getting to me at the moment. I can’t sleep but am too tired to do anything else. My chest tightens and I feel gripped by panic and then think about all my failings as a person and feel intense shame.
I’m not sure how much, if any, faith I have at the moment. However the message of grace and forgiveness at Easter does give me some hope. Thanks for echoing this @Climacus@Lothlorien.
Any advice in how to deal with panicking in the middle of the night would be appreciated.
Not entirely me, I do hope you can find comfort. I often wake recently with a feeling of dread in the pit of my stomach. No real reason evident for this. Ithink different things help at different times. A couple of pieces of toast with peanut butter is often a help. Apparently the carbs are what helps. Sometimes I do not listen to a Headspace meditation but do the concentrating on breath, in, out. Then the review of each part of the body will often help and I wake still saying in, out for breathing.The emptiness and dread is hard to account for so hard to deal with. Saying Compline before settling to sleep is calming. Such a beautiful liturgy.
These offered as coming from my experience and definitely they are not foolproof as to efficacy.
I might just try that now. Better than sitting here worrying about possible jobs/house moves/business opportunities. In daylight its all rather exciting, but at night I start thinking that I've lost the plot and ought to stay where I am and retire gracefully.
Anxiety is really getting to me at the moment. I can’t sleep but am too tired to do anything else. My chest tightens and I feel gripped by panic and then think about all my failings as a person and feel intense shame.
{{ not entirely me }}
I am so sorry... especially re the panic and your thoughts on your supposed failings...I can identify.
To add to Loth's comments, if you aren't lactose intolerant a warm glass of milk (with honey or Australia's (and NZ's) preferred malted beverage) can help me get back to sleep. I can identify with not wanting to get out of bed, especially on a cool night, but I have found getting up and doing something (even if it is just making a warm drink), can keep the beast at bay -- if only for a little while.
Give meditation or some form of distraction a go. It took me a while to find something that worked for me, so if something doesn't work for you do not blame yourself! Try something else. I have some techniques that work for some anxieties and others for other types.
I am grateful that the third anti-depressant my psychiatrist prescribed for me is working. I don’t mean third in a row; I mean I’m taking three at the same time. (One of them I think is more of an anti-anxiety than anti-depressant, but still.). I am grateful that my depression responds to medication and I don’t have bad side-effects. I know that either or both of those statements don’t apply to everyone.
I find belly breathing helpful. If I need words as well I use, Each in breath a new beginning, each out breath a letting go, which I borrowed from a longer meditation.
Sometimes it doesn't actually help me get to sleep, but means I am more relaxed just lying there and, for me, it stops the constant ruminating, which goes nowhere and is a form of self torture.
Shame is the pits - can you find some ways of being kind to yourself?
((Not entirely me))
I’m another one who favours getting up when I wake in the middle of the night, I have a cup of tea in the kitchen and a little read. This distracts me from my thoughts and half hour later I go back to bed.
I do breathing exercises too (we do controlled deep breathing in my yoga class) and I have done progressive muscle relaxation with patients before so it worth trying those to see what suits you.
If you can, try writing down three things that you know you have done well. They can be as mundane as they need to be if you know that you really were a help to someone or that you accomplished something that brought you great pleasure or that you did something that you really wanted. Keep the note about them on the bedside table and then, when you feel horrible or have shame worming its way in, pick one of the three and tell yourself the bedtime story of how it went. Describe everything just like a granny telling her grandchild about that day - what did you wear, where did you go, who else was there, etc. Just keep weaving more and more details in and feel how warm and nice it was. If you don't think you can do it, then write the story out during the daytime or in the evening when going to bed. Take several days if you need to for each story. Remind yourself of the good feeling then and the potential for it in the future.
Gosh, I have no idea where that came from today but I may take my own advice! Shame is a terrible feeling and completely unproductive.
One of the things I'm finding is helping is listing out three good things from every day - it may be something completed, a particularly nice meal, the weather being nice or for me at the moment getting out for a walk.
I'm finding it particularly challenging at the moment that my usual way of dealing with finding life tough would be to walk - a good daily walk. But I can't leave my daughter most days.
Had a shower, ate oaty cereal with oat milk for supper, did a tad bit of yoga and tried the deep breathing. Ok so I had some red wine as well. But all seemed to work as I slept and didn’t have any noctural panic attacks. A bit of light anxiety but nothing major. Thanks for all the advice and support.
Even though I don't actually have a Black Beastie, I confess that brighter days and the increasing absence of sn*w is improving my mood more than somewhat.
Whether this improvement will outlive the 25°-plus days and the attacks from actual Wee Beasties remains to be seen ...
I find this time of year (mid-autumn here) wonderfully invigorating and good for my soul. The brisk mornings, the chill in the air... Spring is a time I've needed to be wary in the past for some reason... The brilliant colours of the trees on campus, including some glorious yellows outside my unusually large) work windows currently, give a boost too.
We’re having brisk clear days interspersed with rain, which is what passes for spring here. Soon we’ll get one day of pleasant warmth, and then, zap, it will be disgustingly hot and summertime.
I actually really love the current weather, but seriously, spring seems to last a very short time here. So I prefer autumn, which has similar though slightly colder weather, but actually stays stable long enough for one to get time to enjoy it.
Comments
Another thing you could do is see if getting him to use a daylight alarm clock (don't bother with the expensive the cheap ones will do) as this will tune him to waking with the light.
*enough works out for me at about walking a mile to two miles.
I know in my head I'm not doing myself any favours, but it's hard to break a bad habit.
(He knows I'm posting here, but isn't planning to read it till he comes home).
--I take it he's at college/uni? Is there an on-campus clinic? If so, they might have experience in this with other students.
--Medication timing: Dealing with severe depression, I wound up with a large dose of Zoloft/sertraline at night, and a smaller dose midday. The larger dose at bedtime was evidently atypical. However, it helped my sleep. It didn't necessarily make me sleep *more*; but insomnia didn't wear me out as much. It smoothed things out somewhat.
My situation has shifted, due to other health problems. One is Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome (CFIDS/CFS/ME). There's a running joke in the Chronic Fatigue community that it's like having insomnia and narcolepsy and the same time.
But the Zoloft/sertraline still helps.
--Sometimes, certain sounds can help in a similar way. Back when I was sorting all this out, I found that I desperately needed distraction when I couldn't get to sleep. Otherwise, my mind would sort of gnaw on itself. With some experimenting, I found that nature/environmental sounds helped if played all night. Mostly ocean. The rhythm is soothing, and I love the ocean.
Eventually, I found that having the radio on all night helped, too, and I didn't have to worry about the cassette tape (back then) running out. I usually have NPR (like the BBC) on all night--the volume somewhere between low enough not to really wake me up, and loud enough to actually follow what's being said, if I choose.
--Sometimes, slow breathing and meditation can help, even if it's just a minute or so at a time.
--YouTube has all sorts of audio/visual nature recordings. Many are set to run for 11 hours! A YT search on "ocean sounds no music" finds many good ones.
--OnlineClock.net is a really cool resource, with many functions available. I use it for the alarm clock system and the video backgrounds. IME, it takes a little tinkering to get how it works. And it tends to create a new page if you click on an option. But it's fun. I usually need to set multiple alarms, one way or another; and if I need something extra, I use the site and leave my computer on all night. Bonus is that if I need help relaxing/sleeping, I can watch the video backgrounds: aquarium, rain, fireplace, etc.
--Note about blue computer light at night: one of the things I love about Windows 10 is the Night Light function. I can set it to redden the light on a schedule. Much easier on my eyes.
--Neither a doctor nor a parent; but, from my experience and various news stories, ISTM that he may have a hormonal imbalance. E.g. Many teenagers are wired for sleeping in, and many schools are adjusting schedules to allow for that.
It may not be that he's doing anything "wrong", making poor choices, not buckling down, etc. Maybe there are physical things going on that keep him from doing what he "should", when he "should".
FWIW, YMMV, good luck.
He's not at uni; he graduated in 2017. He's a self-employed writer, who is still young enough to be happy with a "starving artist" lifestyle. He's a good cook and he eats well, though cheaply. Eating at erratic times is an issue, though, and because each day is configured differently depending on when he wakes, naps and goes to sleep, some days have two breakfasts and some have none etc. If he could sort the sleep, the meals would fall into place.
I definitely don't think that he's not "buckling down" I think he's putting a huge amount of effort into his life, but he's not getting much payback. I put no effort into sleeping, and generally very little effort into staying awake (I might nod off after a big meal). He's actually putting effort into both, but it's still not working out for him.
Apologies for any offense. Your comments about being baffled and such seemed, to me in the middle of the night, like you might be thinking "well, if he'd just do X", as many parents think. Or as people often do when someone they care about does something they don't understand, and are worried about them.
FWIW, I can relate to his erratic schedule, somewhat. I sleep much of the time, and can drop off for hours without warning. It's hard for me to manage my many meds because of that, and because of usually having low energy. My meal times are very erratic for the same reasons, and also due to some gastro issues. So if I'm awake, and have the energy to take meds, and can remember to do so, I still have to figure out whether my insides can cope with them. Etc.
Anyway, best of luck!
I wonder if there might be a compromise between lack of routine and not seeing it (sleep) as a problem? I'm not really sure what I mean, other than perhaps trying little changes to lifestyle to get some semblence of order, medication and/or counselling and not focusing on the sleep as a big issue. Kind of like finding something you lost when you stop looking?
Anyway, this sleeping bizzo is something that started around Uni for me too. I wish your son all the best.
The Loon's first episode of disrupted sleeping happened when he was about 10 or 11. The Fire Brigade made a visit to his school, and showed them a film about a (fictitious) family whose house caught fire in the middle of the night (electrical fault). The family - father, mother, son, daughter and the dog all died. His teacher said she could see he was finding this distressing, and swithered about taking him out of class, but didn't.
Anyway, he couldn't sleep through the night for the next couple of weeks - he was falling asleep over his desk at school, because he said he felt "safe" to sleep while his teacher and the rest of the class were awake, but, as the Fire Brigade had helpfully pointed out, it wasn't safe to go to sleep when your parents were also asleep. And if your house has electricity (why yes! ours does!) then it is at risk of burning down while you and your family are in it.
After a grim couple of weeks, he started to sleep through again, and stay awake in class, but I'd say it took almost 18 months before he was completely relaxed about it. And I wonder if this set a pattern of anxiety and weird sleeping, so that in future if he was anxious, the disrupted sleep kicked in, and whether we, his parents, should have been pro-active in some way then.
Meh! Parenting! It's supposed to get easier once they've left home!
I'm having some ups and downs, too.
I have a thought. IANAD, but doctors sometimes have people do "sleep studies". AIUI, they're in a (hospital?) facility overnight, hooked up to monitors while they sleep. Gives the docs a chance to see brain patterns and such.
FWIW, YMMV, etc.
I feel it. When it abates I forget how debilitating anxiety can be.
{{Autenrieth Road}}
{{all suffering}}
May the peace and joy of Easter bring some comfort in these times of distress. :votive:
(although personally I get rather anxious in the intensity and large-congregation-sizes of Easter Sunday services...I like a 'quieter' service...)
I’m not sure how much, if any, faith I have at the moment. However the message of grace and forgiveness at Easter does give me some hope. Thanks for echoing this @Climacus @Lothlorien.
Any advice in how to deal with panicking in the middle of the night would be appreciated.
These offered as coming from my experience and definitely they are not foolproof as to efficacy.
I hadn’t considered the idea of a snack but it’s worth a try.
I am so sorry... especially re the panic and your thoughts on your supposed failings...I can identify.
To add to Loth's comments, if you aren't lactose intolerant a warm glass of milk (with honey or Australia's (and NZ's) preferred malted beverage) can help me get back to sleep. I can identify with not wanting to get out of bed, especially on a cool night, but I have found getting up and doing something (even if it is just making a warm drink), can keep the beast at bay -- if only for a little while.
Give meditation or some form of distraction a go. It took me a while to find something that worked for me, so if something doesn't work for you do not blame yourself! Try something else. I have some techniques that work for some anxieties and others for other types.
My best wishes.
I find belly breathing helpful. If I need words as well I use, Each in breath a new beginning, each out breath a letting go, which I borrowed from a longer meditation.
Sometimes it doesn't actually help me get to sleep, but means I am more relaxed just lying there and, for me, it stops the constant ruminating, which goes nowhere and is a form of self torture.
Shame is the pits - can you find some ways of being kind to yourself?
I’m another one who favours getting up when I wake in the middle of the night, I have a cup of tea in the kitchen and a little read. This distracts me from my thoughts and half hour later I go back to bed.
I do breathing exercises too (we do controlled deep breathing in my yoga class) and I have done progressive muscle relaxation with patients before so it worth trying those to see what suits you.
Gosh, I have no idea where that came from today but I may take my own advice! Shame is a terrible feeling and completely unproductive.
I'm finding it particularly challenging at the moment that my usual way of dealing with finding life tough would be to walk - a good daily walk. But I can't leave my daughter most days.
FWIW, when Ah Wor A Lad, and sometimes couldn't sleep at night, a Cheese-Spread Sandwich, of all things, helped......
At 68, it still does. Truly, we are fearfully and wonderfully made.
IANAD, but I like Cheese-Spread - 'Laughing Cow' (La Vache Qui Rit) if possible, please.
{{not entirely me}} and {{all abandoned by Morpheus}}
https://youtube.com/watch?v=sMCA9nYnLWo
Does this help those of us with Black Beasties? I hope so.....
Whether this improvement will outlive the 25°-plus days and the attacks from actual Wee Beasties remains to be seen ...
I find this time of year (mid-autumn here) wonderfully invigorating and good for my soul. The brisk mornings, the chill in the air... Spring is a time I've needed to be wary in the past for some reason... The brilliant colours of the trees on campus, including some glorious yellows outside my unusually large) work windows currently, give a boost too.
I actually really love the current weather, but seriously, spring seems to last a very short time here. So I prefer autumn, which has similar though slightly colder weather, but actually stays stable long enough for one to get time to enjoy it.