NOprophet_NØprofit and transgender
Curiosity killed
Shipmate
in Hell
This comes from a discussion on the behemoth of the Transgender thread which I can't answer outside Hell. With apologies to those who have been following, but to explain to those new to NOprophet's repeated picking of this same sore, there is a summary of the thread below, with exemplifications of the umpteen seven times that NOprophet has brought the same arguments back to that thread. This should clarify why I refused to engage in the same old, same old, again.
The thread was started by @NOprophet_NØprofit purportedly questioning treatment for transgender people but within a few posts we started having comments demonstrating scepticism, such as:
After 3 painful pages, in which it was pointed out, several times in several ways, that the arguments could be seen as offensive (one example):
Here we have several people describing their or their close family's experience with transgender people and the mental health issues. And we're only on page 4.
Page 5 we had some offensive remarks made by a recent partcipant on the thread, which triggered both a Hell thread for Makepeace and the ten page Styx thread on Transphobia. By page 7 another Hell thread was started for Russ, following this comment*.
Moving on to page 9, when NOprophet rejoined the thread [2] with this comment including a link to another challenging article, summarised a few posts later as:
By p17 NOprophet's again raises this family issue, answered by a comment that his arguments against the usual treatments are a strawman and ROGD is not proven, with link upon link in the densely referenced posts [3]. There was a brief break before we start again here in March on p20 [4], in the middle of a discussion of DSD and trans athletes, and again on p22 [5]. Still we grind on, with this post on p24 challenging the WPATH guidelines for treatment, followed by this comment confirming we are back on the same treadwheel [6] and we return to the same issue again on page 26 [7]
@NOprophet_NØprofit we get you're unhappy about your relative, but really, your continued refusal to accept the experiences on the thread and much of the research you are presented with has a stench of transphobia. For any gender fluid person on the Ship those repeated arguments on that long-running thread has to be off-putting.
* I'd forgotten I'd called Russ to Hell for his comments on this thread (I remembered I'd called him to Hell, just not why) and am reminded that the Transphobia Styx thread made me more confident in doing so.
The thread was started by @NOprophet_NØprofit purportedly questioning treatment for transgender people but within a few posts we started having comments demonstrating scepticism, such as:
Throughout, NOprophet (and others) showed a reluctance to accept transgender in young people, refused to accept the science on offer and gave further details about the case in NOprophet's family that was triggering the thread [1] with so much scepticism, refusal to accept other people's experiences, continuing questioning and much infelicitous phrasing. This was debated over several pages, with distress noted by an out transgender Shipmate hereI cannot find any decent data at all for this contention. It seems to be in the realm of opinion and ideology.
After 3 painful pages, in which it was pointed out, several times in several ways, that the arguments could be seen as offensive (one example):
We then had some acceptance from NOprophet, until the very dubious theory of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria was raised. There is a certain irony in someone challenging and spurning any and all scientific information offered, but swallowing whole the premise of ROGD. This wasn't discussed until a few pages later.It's perhaps difficult for you to understand that there are very likely less condescending ways of expressing yourself.
Here we have several people describing their or their close family's experience with transgender people and the mental health issues. And we're only on page 4.
Page 5 we had some offensive remarks made by a recent partcipant on the thread, which triggered both a Hell thread for Makepeace and the ten page Styx thread on Transphobia. By page 7 another Hell thread was started for Russ, following this comment*.
Moving on to page 9, when NOprophet rejoined the thread [2] with this comment including a link to another challenging article, summarised a few posts later as:
and a continuing dismissal of much of what was posted, as commented on by various Shipmates, with NOprophet countering everything offered with quotes from hate groups (top of p10 if you need to check), with a reiteration of links to ROGD, followed by evidenced rebuttal over these arguments, concluding with comments part way down p11 that we were arguing about a strawman and that what NOprophet was experiencing was not typical and against Canadian WPATH guidelines. On p12 he tried to reframe the thread in ways that were challenged here with the proffering of links, criticism of said links and reiteration of the same arguments. NOprophet's responses were characterised as challenging anything perceived as pro-transgender and promoting any link that had conclusions that found against transgender and/or for ROGD through pp10-16.no prophet's link demonstrates a strong discomfort factor that so many people use as an excuse to stigmatize or marginalize transgender people
By p17 NOprophet's again raises this family issue, answered by a comment that his arguments against the usual treatments are a strawman and ROGD is not proven, with link upon link in the densely referenced posts [3]. There was a brief break before we start again here in March on p20 [4], in the middle of a discussion of DSD and trans athletes, and again on p22 [5]. Still we grind on, with this post on p24 challenging the WPATH guidelines for treatment, followed by this comment confirming we are back on the same treadwheel [6] and we return to the same issue again on page 26 [7]
@NOprophet_NØprofit we get you're unhappy about your relative, but really, your continued refusal to accept the experiences on the thread and much of the research you are presented with has a stench of transphobia. For any gender fluid person on the Ship those repeated arguments on that long-running thread has to be off-putting.
* I'd forgotten I'd called Russ to Hell for his comments on this thread (I remembered I'd called him to Hell, just not why) and am reminded that the Transphobia Styx thread made me more confident in doing so.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Your post is suggesting it's not worth the effort to challenge. When we are being advised that it is up to us to self-police when this has been queried in the Styx (see the Transphobia thread).
Sorry, I just find it tiring. I've read a huge amount of transphobic stuff, and I am a bit worn out by it. I think challenging is fine, but then what? You will not change his mind.
I have deliberately stayed away from the relevant thread, largely because there’s nothing useful I could contribute. I have been a developing human, a parent of one, and an adviser of sorts to many others in my role as an educator, though, and have questions of my own.
Human development, at least as it unfolds in the culture I inhabit, is a time of profound questions, most centering around identity. What will I do with my life? Who am I? Who are my people? What do I believe? Why am I here? What is love? What is responsibility?
How should I treat others? On and on, with few clear or definitive answers, and often many conflicting ones. So it’s hardly surprising that gender identity is one thing we can question as we develop.
But it’s relatively recent that gender has become one of those items (in part because it's only relatively recently that it's also become something we have the power to change). And that is one basis for whatever skepticism I myself harbor about this issue. Identity issues typically arise before individuals have reached full maturity; this particular issue is of relatively recent origin (and as social species, we’re quite easily influenced by visible “trends” in our society and by our peers). And the possibility exists that some identity questions end up being transitory. I toyed with the question of whether I'd have made a better "boy" than the girl I was during my early teens; I suspect I'm not unique in this regard.
If an adolescent came to me with questions about his/her gender identity, I’d urge caution, and waiting, and a little more experience-acquisition before going full-bore ahead with making life-altering decisions. Of course, from a different, adolescent-with-questions lens, the issue will have far more urgency. So urging patience and caution will fall on frustrated ears.
I’m also somewhat skeptical about how anyone can acquire such certainty about an identity of which they can have had no direct experience. “Inside” is always different from “outside;” sure, I can believe I’m destined to be, say, a great trial lawyer as I observe how this looks “through the window.” But what it’s like as a lived reality drives many young US lawyers straight out of the profession in under 5 years.
Frankly, I find it somewhat suspect that this identity issue seems to arise almost exclusively about gender. In the US, where I live, race (however nonexistent) is a huge issue. Yet we rarely see people questioning racial identity and believing they’ve been “assigned” to the wrong one. (Aren’t I, in my deepest sense of self, really Asian?) We rarely see people wanting surgery or other medical interventions to make our outward appearances match up with our inner, “correct races.” To the extent that this happens, people tend to request changes that make them blend in with the dominant group. How often do we come across, “Shouldn’t I darken my skin, have my skull elongated a bit, and alter my nose and cheekbones to reflect the “black” identity I feel I really should have been born to?”
I don’t question the sincerity of those seeking gender re-assignment, and I don't wish to upset anybody for whom this is a deeply personal issue, which is why I stayed out of the thread. I simply remain skeptical about human social nature, and our ability to persuade ourselves of beliefs which later turn out to have a dodgy basis. I don't know there's a dodgy basis for the transgender question; I think it's possible, but I am far from sure. This contrasts, for me, with a different group: I don't doubt the sincerity of those who believe they’re of pure Aryan stock, making them a superior sort of human. I am quite sure they’re mistaken, however.
I am NOT sure that transgender folk are mistaken in any way, but I am in considerable doubt on the matter.
I don’t, can’t speak for NPNP, but find him a thoughtful and respected Shipmate (aside from his permanent blanket frustration with and disapproval of the US, which I have come to share since 2016). So I’d be inclined to give his skepticism a pass.
That youngster was denied any support and nearly died many times, When given support he stabilised and was allowed to transition when he was old enough.
DT
HH
@NOprophet_NØprofit seems to be under the misapprehension that his posts are rational contributions to a productive discussion. If that was ever the case, it’s not the case now. His posts have long ceased to make any sense whatsoever. The only reason this thread is 26 pages long is that he is in the grip of a personal obsession that he insists on inflicting on the rest of us, thereby making Purgatory a cesspool of ill-informed commentary on transgenderism that would immediately convince any halfway-intelligent transgender person to flee SOF with all possible haste.
Maybe this thread will bring the point home.
I don't think the problem is his scepticism per se.
It's a while since I posted on that thread, but when I did, the pattern was constant. NP would make a point that is, in itself, entirely reasonable. Other posters would respond to that point. NP would then make exactly the same point that he's just made, without reference to anything anyone else has said, exactly as though they hadn't posted. Other posters would then reword their response in case there was a communications issue. NP would continue to post the same argument, unalloyed by anything anyone else has said.
Gender is also largely a social construct. Like race, however, physical markers are involved.
We "recognize" (sometimes mistakenly) race in others by physical markers: skin color, hair texture, eyefold configuration, etc. We "recognize" (sometimes mistakenly) gender in others by body shape/size, vocal tones, Adam's apple, body hair, etc.
This states it pretty well for me. (I shld note in tangent that I've an American grandfather and sister, which isn't an excuse for anti-Americanism, and I'll take this under advisement)
This also states things pretty well about a specific case.
About the general issue, I don't see any way clear to not discussing things in Purgatory because that is what that forum is for. I get frustrated when people want to turn discussion into support. I was serious (though frustrated) when I suggested there could be a trans support topic elsewhere.
I am persuaded that some people who've been through some exploration of the issues for themselves are transgender. I'm also persuaded that it is best to wait and watch with not yet fully formed children and that, while unclear, that some proportion of the transgender-questioning children align their gender and sexuality to the statistical norm. In addition I note, I've not been passively discussing, I've been doing what I tend to do with any topic: learn about it, applying my understanding of how to appraise medical and related information, and advocacy information. I have a bias toward evidence and data, I don't respond to individual case histories very well.
I do not think I can answer CK's issues with me on this topic in any satisfactory way. I respect the feelings about the topic. But again, I don't believe that Purgatory is the place to provide support. I've also noted IRL how I conduct myself. There are few places in life where discussion is as free as it is on this forum and I've valued the ship because it allows for this. If this makes me a bad person in the views of some, that's all right. I don't see a way to bend re discussion in Purgatory. Is the real desire to ask me to shut-up and desist from the topic? If that carried, I'd need to quit the Ship.
As for repetition, with a year long thread, no doubt true. I am guilty of repeating things. My frame of mind is different now than when I started the thread which would not be evident from typed words.
I am not suggesting that Purgatory is turned into a support thread, but that you realise you are talking about real people's lives when you find these ridiculous sources to prove your transphobic ideas. Those sources that are so ludicrous that we can tear them to shreds in seconds.
Yeah, right - that's why you've spurned all the peer reviewed science we have quoted and chosen to follow the stuff that proves your points over and over again - confirmation bias much.
No you don't. If you did you would not continue finding quotations that confirm your bias, you'd be thinking of others
But you are expecting us to support you in your obsession of your one case, while saying that you don't think it's possible to support others to allow you to trample all over the trans people on the Ship, their friends and families.
So you are going to keep posting in this way in Purgatory, whatever? Inflexible, much?
And passive aggressive too - that's effectively saying "if you don't let me post this way, I'll flounce".
If this thread is so important to you that it's the only reason for coming to the Ship, then that is a concern.
If gender is a social construct, doesn't that mean that any particular person's gender is what society construes it to be ?
How can it be objectively true that someone is a member of a category if that category does not itself have objective reality but is defined by whatever people agree that it is ?
One of the things I've learned from the discussion is how slippery the concept of "gender" is...
NPNP has dug up more bullshit on this topic than I even knew existed. He's not interested in evidence or data.
Note how I didn't say "gender."
And this discussion, Doc Tor warns us, belongs on the Purg thread. I did note you left "gender" off the table. Alas, this issue manages to span both sex and gender -- however they're defined.
I realize that there are people who become deeply upset about positions like that of NOProphet. I also sympathize with his recurring suggestion that Purgatory has other functions than support. There are many posts, posters, and threads on the internet that upset me personally and deeply. I have learned how to avoid them.
What some of us are asking is that NPNP give his irrational obsession with proving transgender people and the medical profession wrong about transgenderism a rest, or at least a break. We’re not having a productive discussion about transgenderism on that thread (we did have a productive discussion of testosterone in women’s sports, but technically that was a massive tangent). We’ve been spending months basically replying to variations of the same argument over and over again, and it’s wearing thin. It’s true, of course, that we could just ignore the thread, and I have on occasions ignored the thread in the hope that it might just end, but that doesn’t seem to be in the cards.
I get it that Purgatory is about free discussion. But free discussion has its costs, especially when it is ill-informed discussion about members of a vulnerable minority group whose circumstances remain poorly understood in broader culture. Hell is about bringing that point home.
One last thing. We lost one transgender shipmate, very publicly, because of this thread. In her last post before this Hell call @Curiosity killed implied we’ve also lost others more quietly. I don’t have any kind of inside track on this, but there is at least one publicly trans-identified Shipmate who I haven’t seen around for a while and I have occasionally wondered why. There’s a cost to letting this go on forever and if the effect of this thread is to make the Ship a transgender-free zone I think the cost is too high.
Agree with this. Why not close the current thread? Future transgender threads could be prefaced with specific, suggested guidelines and closed if these are violated.
The sense of the Styx thread was that there are no official constraints on what can be discussed in Purgatory and realistically I don’t think it’s workable to declare certain aspects transgenderism officially off-limits for discussion.
This is really about people exercising decency, common sense, and restraint when discussing the identities of vulnerable minorities, some of whom happen to Shipmates, especially when it ought to be clear to them that they do not understand these identities very well. And people getting called to Hell if they repeatedly fail to do so.
I didn’t used to think transgenderism needed to a Dead Horse, but this thread is convincing me otherwise. Perhaps the best solution is to close the Purgatory thread and let someone start a DH thread if they really want to. Though I suppose this is a discussion that belongs elsewhere.
I participate in discussions about things which affect me to help broaden awareness. It doesn't mean that it takes no toll. For transpeople, in general, this is going to be so much more painful because they have a lower level of acceptance and support.
I think if you want to back out of a discussion, then a good way of doing that is probably not by posting a bunch of discussion points.
Seconded! Transgender issues have become as divisive as those related issues. As is, the current Pugatory thread has ceased to be a place where one can learn, chew things over, and possibly refine -- or change! -- one's positions. Dead Horses is the place for those who are not seeking new thoughts. It also serves as a Warning sign fot those who might be offended or harmed by opinions or language.
.
CK,
Your experience is of someone who suffered because others were too slow to recognise gender dysphoria. Of course you don't want to see that error repeated.
NP's experience is of a family who suffered because others were too quick to embrace a self-diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Of course he doesn't want to see that error repeated.
There's a happy medium. The two of you may never agree on exactly where that is. Because it's hard to see one's own experience as unrepresentative.
Your answers to NP have in my view been very reasonable, linking to good practice guidelines which if followed would avoid a repeat of NP's experience.
I don't think NP's beef is with you. It's with those who want to go further than you've argued for in normalising this condition.
NP's relative's case may be being mishandled, but that is not Ship's business. It might be the subject of a Hell rant, or a support request, but it really isn't, and cannot be, the basis of a general discussion of transgender issues, particularly when NP is so emotionally involved in this case as, however much he believes he is being rational and analytical, he has proved repeatedly that he is unable to achieve that dispassion here.
The other mechanism is what we are doing now, take the person who keeps doing this to Hell.
I have moved away from the specific personal case which prompted me to post at the start. We're dealing now with a general problem of lack of adequate services for adolescents, and it is now for us about advocacy for general mental health services and psychosocial counselling for young people. I have no interest in controlling the outcomes of any form of counselling and therapy for anyone, just want it to occur, remaining concerned that advocacy on the part of clinicians is a factor, more intense here than in some places. My frustration with this continues. You are correct that your jurisdiction provides much more clinical services to people about psychosocial issues. I shouldn't presume about everywhere.
We went on to discuss acceptance of athletes in national and international competitions more recently, and it was probably unwise for me to discuss the issues I understand from the organization of sport as groups of people competing when the rights of the specific individuals were the focus of the feelings of the posters. It comforted me to post re something more concrete there.
You used the word "flounce". When I said "quit", I meant the topic (including your thread here) and the rest is hyperbole - I'm unlikely to quit the Ship, Again quoting myself below; if it's transphobic, then so be it. This is what I think.
That said, if you feel like having a kick, you should certainly do so. But an endless cycle of awful material - condemnation - awfulness - condemnation serves no purpose but to keep the awfulness front and centre.
Go ahead, own these threads. They're all your's.
However, citing people as experts is a whole different ballgame.
@NOprophet_NØprofit you have already brought up social contagion as a reason why a young person might present as being transgender on the Transgender thread and had it discussed in:
I was not the only person who was challenging that idea each and every time it was brought up. There was a long list of Shipmates arguing against it. I suggest that if you want to bring it up again, that you may need to find some other evidence for your ideas, or you will be seen as transphobic for continually revisiting the same ideas.
Your other question:
I am not bothering to go through the thread to evidence this, but we have also repeatedly given you evidence in the way of papers and anecdotal evidence as to why adolescents present at puberty.
I would suggest that if you are not getting the answers you want from the Ship, you are either asking the question in the wrong place or you are hoping that if you keep asking you'll get different answers. When those of us, and it's not just me, are arguing against your ideas with evidence, I am not sure why you think you are going to persuade people into different answers.