Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson

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  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    I find myself now praying for someone whom I despise. Kyrie eleison.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus

    Currently there is neither Deputy PM nor Deputy Leader of the Conservative Party: technically the next in line is Leader of the House of Commons which is Jacob Rees Mogg :grimace:

    Get well soon, Boris.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Let us assume that BJ is unable to give any advice to the Queen but dies. I suppose she then relies upon her PPS to sound out the Tory leadership. Different here where there is a Deputy PM whom the Governor-General could commission on a short term basis - assume Canada and NZ are much the same, no idea about the other Commonwealth countries of which she is still monarch.
  • Is this situation one giant Brexit metaphor, with Britain now the sick man of Europe? Germany's vibrant, vital leader is diagnosed, rests for a while and is cleared. Britain's degenerate, shambolic and decrepit leader is diagnosed, and into the ICU, playing a game of chess with death in his subconscious.

    Like Ross, I am praying for him, although not as an individual.
  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    I find myself now praying for someone whom I despise. Kyrie eleison.

    I'm trying to. It's hard.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    So just to be clear, if the PM is suddenly incapacitated nobody knows who's in charge until the Queen makes up her mind or there's a leadership contest? What happens if there's, say, an immediate defence situation that crops up just then?
  • {Cross-pond.}

    FWIW: I like to do "everybody" prayers. They make me feel connected; and I know that other people are doing the same thing, so I know I'm being prayed for, too. And, by default, people I don't want to pray for are included.

    *IF* you feel the need to pray for Boris, but can't bring yourself to do it, you might find an "everybody" prayer easier--he'll be included, even if not by name.

    I'm *not* saying you should pray for him--just pointing out a different approach if you choose to pray.

    YMMV.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    If he were incapacitated but not resigned, the Defence Secretary would still be in office and could take most, if not all, steps. Not sure if that remains the position if a PM dies.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Great. So if something comes up that is, say, somehow borderline between domestic terrorism (Home Office) and defence (say with the involvement of a state), who gets to decide who handles the response? If there's no continuity of command, it seems like a pretty gross oversight to me.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    Great. So if something comes up that is, say, somehow borderline between domestic terrorism (Home Office) and defence (say with the involvement of a state), who gets to decide who handles the response? If there's no continuity of command, it seems like a pretty gross oversight to me.

    Generally in the UK we try to avoid having constitutional provision for things that have never happened before. It's much more fun that way. Part of the issue is that a lot of ministerial posts have only the flimsiest legal underpinning.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    Immediate defence response, sans political leadership, would probably default to the joint chiefs of the command staff (military leadership) I suppose. The civil service can run the country on autopilot.

    Both military and civil service will act according to existing policies. The problem of lack of leadership, is that no one has the authority to change those policies.

    Contingency planning is based on a gold, silver, bronze command structure across agencies - ultimately headed up by the Cobra committee. That’s currently being chaired by Raab.
  • (If Boris dies, it is possible that at that point parliament might go for a government of national unity - for psychological reasons as much as anything else.)
  • My experience of government emergency planning is that there are clearly marked divisions of responsibility between departments, with the lead department identified during planning stages. So, I've been involved in nuclear emergency responses where in the emergency phase the lead department is DEFRA, with onsite response within the remit of the operator (which, for military sites would be the MoD but in most cases would be a private business) with on the ground leadership being the local chief constable; if there's a terrorist aspect then the Home Office has a significant role in relation to gathering forensics and apprehending those responsible but has a back seat in relation to issues of how to protect the public from radioactive contamination. As has been said, this will happen without the need for political leadership - the responders will report up to Cabinet level, but if a minister was to start issuing instructions they'll be simply ignored and those who know what they're doing will get on with doing what they know should be done. The politicians get to be infront of the cameras telling people what's happening, the machine that has (hopefully) been put together in advance will roll on doing what needs to be done.

    I can't imagine a situation arising where there's, say, a terrorist attack and the response of the emergency and intelligence agencies hasn't already kicked in by the time the PM and other ministers get told, and be well under way by the time Cobra is assembled.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    "Across the wires the electric message came: He is no better, he is much the same."

    (You don't get Poets Laureate knocking out lines like that these days. Fortunately.)
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Immediate defence response, sans political leadership, would probably default to the joint chiefs of the command staff (military leadership) I suppose. The civil service can run the country on autopilot.

    I don't know if the power of the joint chiefs would extend to ordering the RAF to start dropping bombs on Moscow. They would almost certainly have power to get the planes into the air and on their way as long as they did not cross into the airspace of the USSR or one of its allies. Beyond that gets very interesting. Perhaps the Defence Secretary could have an audience with the Queen and give her advice to issue the necessary commands.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Even with the PM hors de combat there is no department of state which doesn’t have a responsible minister.
  • If I'm happy to accept prayers from other people on my own behalf, I should be happy to offer them for Boris.

    I hope it doesn't come to it, but think of Donne's sermon. 'Any man's death diminishes me ...'

    'Send not to ask for whom the bell tolls: it tolls for thee.'

    For all who are sick and dying and for all who care for them at great risk to themselves: Lord have mercy.
  • Sorry, 'seek for whom the bell tolls'.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Yes but a real crisis emergency surely requires coordination between all those people. I suppose COBRA and whoever chairs it is probably that. But who gets to decide to convene COBRA?
  • It's not really been an issue since the 1860s, when Lord Palmerstone was the last PM to die in office. We've had a few since then leave office as they're very ill and die, but no reason to do anything other than dance around the issue constitutionally.

    Dominic Raab currently has the job de facto as he's First Secretary of State, so the senior member of cabinet.
  • Pyx_ePyx_e Shipmate Posts: 4
    Being a Christian, off course I pray for BJ (and everyone who is ill , and all my "enemies") it's the thing to do, apparently. sigh.

    My slight concern is around is if he stands under the mortal shadow and his children are called* to be near him will he know /acknowledge all of them or will the nurses consider his confusion as a sign of febrile rantings and send him under with more tranquilisers.

    Strange Times.

    Pyx_e

    * yes I know they can't / won't be called, it's a device to aid the weak joke. FML
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate

    Well, you can't write the difference between a written and an unwritten constitution much larger than that. Let's hope the effectiveness of the UK system doesn't have to be put to the test (letters of last resort are scary).
  • {Cross-pond.}

    Dominic Raab looks very fierce in that pic. Is he, or is it just that pic?

    Thx.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    {Cross-pond.}

    Dominic Raab looks very fierce in that pic. Is he, or is it just that pic?
    .

    Whereas Johnson is more of a Libertarian, Raab is firmly in the social darwinian mould.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    What about Gove. I thought he was defacto assistant leader?
  • I have complex feelings this morning. I will try to explain them:

    I totally and completely agree with the Ask not for whom the bell tolls... philosophy. As a suffering human person, Boris has my sympathy and my best wishes and my prayers.

    However, I think it dishonest to pretend that it ends there. In some ways I wish I didn't feel the next bit but I do. As Prime Minister, Mr Johnson has taken several decisions that have increased the risks for others. He has delayed key decisions. He has repeatedly lied about the decision-making, about PPE for NHS staff and availability of testing.* The death toll will be higher than it could have been. On an individual level, he ignored advice and didn't follow best practice - putting himself at risk and countless others who might have been influenced by him setting a good example. I take no joy in this but there is no injustice in him sharing in the consequences of his folly. Sharing in the dangers he is, in part, responsible for.

    The third layer is the social media posts lauding him as our great leader and a supporter of the NHS... That just makes me angry and sick. It's simply not true. The NHS will give him the best possible care because that's what we do for everyone but the notion that he is somehow especially deserving is profoundly wrong.

    Why does it matter? Because Mr Johnson is one of hundreds of thousands of people affected and they all deserve our prayers and best wishes. And unlike our Prime Minister, the overwhelming majority of the victims are not partly responsible for the scale of this crisis.

    Lord, heal Boris. Not for the sake of our nation but for him and his loved ones. And Lord we pray for the thousands of others whose names we do not know. Many are sick because they have selflessly served others. Father, keep them safe. And Lord God we pray for all those who mourn, may they know your comfort.

    In Jesus' name, Amen.


    AFZ

    *Remember that testing for NHS staff was being "rolled out last week." It still has not happened and we have no idea when it will start...
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    Yes but a real crisis emergency surely requires coordination between all those people. I suppose COBRA and whoever chairs it is probably that. But who gets to decide to convene COBRA?

    This reminds me of that West Wing storyline.
  • My thoughts and prayers are with the Prime Minister and all his families.
  • (In all seriousness, I hope he doesn't die, but I also hope he realises that having lied and cheated his entire life, it has come down to a metal cylinder of O2, administered by people who have every cause to hate him but will act professionally because they're simply better people than he has ever been.)
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    My thoughts and prayers are with the Prime Minister and all his families.

    (I saw what you did there...)

    What does 'thoughts and prayers are with X' actually mean, anyway?

    Prayers should surely be directed to God/god/gods.

    Or to Trump, the Deputy God, across the pond...
  • anoesisanoesis Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    (In all seriousness, I hope he doesn't die, but I also hope he realises that having lied and cheated his entire life, it has come down to a metal cylinder of O2, administered by people who have every cause to hate him but will act professionally because they're simply better people than he has ever been.)
    Well, look, obviously I hope he doesn't die, either, because the other option is hoping he does die, and I probably couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I actually hoped that.

    But, honestly? - assuming he recovers, I don't think he will be a changed man. I don't think he will have had a Damascus Road moment re: the NHS or his own massive hubris or anything else. I don't believe he is remotely capable of either epiphany or repentance. Either he will recover, and take that fact as further proof, if any were needed, of his immortality, uniqueness, elect-ness, and entitlement, or he will die, and thus be similarly incapable of deriving any teachable moments from his experience.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    I fear I'm with @anoesis on this.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    My experience of someone of whom Johnson reminds me greatly is that they are capable of epiphanies: they just wear off fast.
  • anoesis wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    (In all seriousness, I hope he doesn't die, but I also hope he realises that having lied and cheated his entire life, it has come down to a metal cylinder of O2, administered by people who have every cause to hate him but will act professionally because they're simply better people than he has ever been.)
    Well, look, obviously I hope he doesn't die, either, because the other option is hoping he does die, and I probably couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I actually hoped that.

    I could easily manage utter indifference.
  • Kept alive on a ventilator that the UK failed to order enough of in time, so someone else may die to keep him alive, using oxygen, which supply chain is struggling to make enough to keep people breathing in hospitals not designed to have this many on ventilators - story here, supported by overstretched NHS staff whose pay rise was refused in Parliament, as he cheered along with his cronies, in a hospital that has had its funding cut to the bone and beyond for the last 10 years.

    I don't wish him ill, but I hope he will reflect on all the above, if he can think straight enough for the next few weeks, while he's kept on oxygen and in the time it is going to take him to recover. - see these stories from people who have recovered - source BBC

    Implications of move to ICU Guardian link gives the some ideas as to what may happen next.
  • anoesis wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    (In all seriousness, I hope he doesn't die, but I also hope he realises that having lied and cheated his entire life, it has come down to a metal cylinder of O2, administered by people who have every cause to hate him but will act professionally because they're simply better people than he has ever been.)
    Well, look, obviously I hope he doesn't die, either, because the other option is hoping he does die, and I probably couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I actually hoped that.

    But, honestly? - assuming he recovers, I don't think he will be a changed man. I don't think he will have had a Damascus Road moment re: the NHS or his own massive hubris or anything else. I don't believe he is remotely capable of either epiphany or repentance. Either he will recover, and take that fact as further proof, if any were needed, of his immortality, uniqueness, elect-ness, and entitlement, or he will die, and thus be similarly incapable of deriving any teachable moments from his experience.
    Dafyd wrote: »
    My experience of someone of whom Johnson reminds me greatly is that they are capable of epiphanies: they just wear off fast.
    I suspect he (or, whoever replaces him) will have this sudden realisation of how much the British public values the NHS and all those who work for it, and that it will look good come election time to promise to spend more on essential services and give staff a pay rise. Of course, whether that epiphany lasts beyond the next election and is accompanied by more than just a token increase in funding, enough to be able to say "we've honoured our commitment to the NHS" but no more, is an entirely different issue ... on which I think @Dafyd has probably got the gist of.
  • anoesis wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    (In all seriousness, I hope he doesn't die, but I also hope he realises that having lied and cheated his entire life, it has come down to a metal cylinder of O2, administered by people who have every cause to hate him but will act professionally because they're simply better people than he has ever been.)
    Well, look, obviously I hope he doesn't die, either, because the other option is hoping he does die, and I probably couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I actually hoped that.

    I could easily manage utter indifference.

    Yes, it's not binary.
  • Some caustic stuff on social media about the "libertarian alt-right death cult" who have been saying that the lockdown is encouraging hypochondria. Hear that, Boris?
  • I doubt he's capable of hearing very much at all at the moment.
    :grimace:

    But he'll be OK - Trump, and the rest of America, are praying for him, and we all know how efficacious those prayers for healing are.

    Don't we, Mr Kenneth [Billionaire] Copeland? After all, you have declared the virus 'defeated', haven't you? And you preach the True Word of God (and Deputy God), don't you?
    :naughty:

    There are links on YouTube, but Trump, and Satan, will not allow me to provide them for you, Hellbound Heretick that I am...
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Gove is also reported to be self-isolating. So Raab is safe - for the moment.
  • Just think, if the cabinet is decimated, we could end up with acting PM Grayling.
  • We're all OK - here's Copeland in action against Covid-19.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=OSIrQBGfUtw

    Would you buy a used virus from this man?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    Just think, if the cabinet is decimated, we could end up with acting PM Grayling.

    It's fine. It's not like he could find his way to number 10 or work out how to use Zoom to give anyone any orders.

    The real worry is the dishonourable member for the 18th century ending up in charge. Cupping and leeches for everyone!
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    anoesis wrote: »
    Either he will recover, and take that fact as further proof, if any were needed, of his immortality, uniqueness, elect-ness, and entitlement, or he will die, and thus be similarly incapable of deriving any teachable moments from his experience.

    Or he could partially recover, and be impaired physically, cognitively and mentally, as seems to often happen when people come off ventilators, from all I've read, for instance this.
  • SarasaSarasa Shipmate
    Does anyone ese think were getting the news about Johnson with a delay of about a day. Most of yesterday he was supposed to be in hospital as a precaution, by the evening we had a hint of the true state of affairs. Today he's in intensive care but doesn't have pneumonia and is not on a ventilator. I guess that's tomorrow's news, or am I getting cynical?
    BTW where are Sunak and Patel, haven't seen either of them in age.
  • The less we see of Priti "I'd deport my own parents" Patel, the better.
  • There's love and hate, which are about intensity of feeling, and then there's apathy in sense of not caring at all. If you care enough to hate, you care enough to pray.

    If you call him "BJ" in your prayers, that probably balances the love and hate..
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    So just to be clear, if the PM is suddenly incapacitated nobody knows who's in charge until the Queen makes up her mind or there's a leadership contest? What happens if there's, say, an immediate defence situation that crops up just then?

    It's my (outsider's) understanding the the UK is governed by the cabinet as a whole, not the Prime Minister acting alone as a single executive. (Anyone with a better understanding of the British government can chime in and correct me.) This gives a certain robustness to the day-to-day operations of the government (as well as all the drawbacks to anything done by committee). Things might get a bit sticky in a crisis situation, which brings me to:
    Just think, if the cabinet is decimated, we could end up with acting PM Grayling.

    The Prime Minister has frequent contact with the cabinet and has a very contagious and frequently debilitating illness which is widespread enough to constitute a "crisis" by any meaningful definition of the term.
  • Sarasa wrote: »
    Does anyone ese think were getting the news about Johnson with a delay of about a day. Most of yesterday he was supposed to be in hospital as a precaution, by the evening we had a hint of the true state of affairs. Today he's in intensive care but doesn't have pneumonia and is not on a ventilator. I guess that's tomorrow's news, or am I getting cynical?
    BTW where are Sunak and Patel, haven't seen either of them in age.

    Yes, it seems quite Soviet. I read a doctor who said "in good spirits" means off their trolley on morphine, probably fake news.
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