I am going into the local primary school in half an hour, There are three Zanders among the 120 pupils. In Scotland. There is also a Sandy. And a male and a female Alex. We need more names!
@Cathscats although I know it isn't and the name comes from Macedonia, Alexander and its diminutive Sandy sound as unmistakably Scottish as Hamish, Archie and Fiona, just as Iolo (mentioned above), Glyn and Blodwyn are Welsh.
Oh yes, I know. And we aren't even in the part of Scotland which goes so much all out on Alexanders that they have (or used to, I knew one) "Double Alexanders" i.e. boys names Alexander Alexander, as first and surname. They pretty much have to abbreviate the first one!
Interesting - I've never thought to associate the name Alexander with Scotland. I guess I don't know enough Scottish people. I'm realising I actually associate Alexander more with Russia, though it's not from there either, because in groups of Russian people, and when I've been to Russia, it always seems to be the most common male name, and always shortened to Sasha there.
Someone referred to Alec as an abbreviation. My experience here is that Alec is a male name on its own, with Alex being a diminutive of Alexandra, Alexandria and Alexander.
That was me, I’ve encountered both—Alec as a diminutive for Alexander and as a name on its own. I’ve encountered the former more often.
Among well-known folk, Alec Baldwin and Alec Douglas-Home are examples of the former (both Alexanders), and Alec Guinness an example of the latter.
There are no more people named Gay or Gaye. It used to be men and women. Randy is also gone. As are a bunch of E names: Edward, Edwin, Edgar. I hear Douglas occasionally again, but almost never Doug.
For girls/women, some names are definitely perceived negatively. Bertha means fat (big Bertha I think was a weapon), and Claudia means the person is a clod (not smart).
There are a number of people I know, including my brother, who use none of their given names at all, and are known by something altogether different. Some names are definitely denigrated, or sound too ethnic. I know a Muhammed who is affectionately called Moe and periodically Moose.
I find these days people are much freer to create their own shortened version of their name, without feeling the need to stick to traditional diminutives. When I was a kid, shortened versions of girl's names generally ended in 'y' (Vicky, Mandy, etc.) or 'ie' to distinguish them from a male version ending in 'y' (eg. Bobbie for a girl, Bobby for a boy). Then it became popular for girls to end these names with 'i' instead, and then to experiment with all sorts of alternatives, and these days I observe it's far more popular to have gender-neutral shortened forms, whereas when I was a kid, people often liked to have a clear way of telling if a name was male or female.
Something I observed as a kid, going to Baptist churches in the UK, was that most church kids had biblical names - lots of Hannahs, Rachels, Rebeccas, Peters, Pauls and Johns. All names that were fairly common names in general, but used much more in a church setting. I would often feel like the odd one out at church, as I would mentally go through everyone's names and realise I was the only kid in Sunday School with a non-biblical name! But when I went to Bible school for a year, before uni, where a lot of students were North American, I observed that the North American Christians my age were far less likely to have these names - they mostly had non-biblical names, or occasionally less usual biblical names, like Damaris.
Similarly when I was in Canada in my 20s, the church people my age there tended not to have biblical names. What I noticed with the little kids (I taught Sunday School, so got to know all the kids' names) was the little girls would generally have non-biblical names (often newer names that I hadn't heard in the UK at all) while the little boys would more often have less-usual biblical names, like Ezra and Malachi.
No idea if my experience is representative in any way, or if anyone else has ever observed similar, but it was interesting to observe. I've noticed among my Canadian church friends who now have children that the same pattern seems to happen. Girls have modern, non-biblical names and boys often have less-usual biblical names (by 'less usual', I mean these names were/are not common names in the UK, and also didn't seem common outside of church settings in the part of Canada where I was, so it is of course subjective).
There are no more people named Gay or Gaye. It used to be men and women. Randy is also gone. As are a bunch of E names: Edward, Edwin, Edgar. I hear Douglas occasionally again, but almost never Doug.
Edward, and to a lesser extent, Edwin, are still very common here across the age span. Doug and Randy are fairly common too, and I know a number of Claudias, one of whom is 17 years old.
Interesting how the use of names varies by region.
I was also just thinking that in my grandparents' generation, Richards were more likely to be shortened to Dick, and these days it seems more often Rich, and in between there has been Rick and Ricky. Also in my grandparents' generation, Margarets were more likely to be shortened to Peggy, and then Maggie/Mags was more popular, and the few people I know of my generation called Margaret don't shorten it.
I've never heard of Claudia being perceived negatively. I don't think (unless I'm just oblivious) that this association happens in the UK - the 'claud' part is not a homophone of 'clod' in most British accents. I know a few Claudias. The names Sharon and Tracey were perceived negatively in the UK for a while, because of certain TV shows, but that seems to have passed by now. Right now, the name Karen is getting a bad rap (in North America too, I believe, and no doubt elsewhere) as representing an idea of the stereotypical 'boomer' who judges people and complains self-importantly about unimportant things. So I imagine there might be a drop in babies being named that for a while.
I don't think Randy was ever common in the UK as a name, because of the sexual meaning it has here. It'd be like naming a kid Horny.
Wasn't there a singer called Randy Van Warmer? That always got giggles in the UK.
Can't believe no-one has mentioned the UK's most popular Xander at the moment. Guess the Ship doesn't have many fans of Pointless... Alexander Armstrong is often called Xander.
Can't believe no-one has mentioned the UK's most popular Xander at the moment. Guess the Ship doesn't have many fans of Pointless... Alexander Armstrong is often called Xander.
Yes, I was thinking that. When he did The Twelve Drinks of Christmas with his brother in law, Giles Coren, he called him Xander.
Margaret is like Elizabeth in having a lot of nicknames. My mum was Moggie, but there's Meg, Meggie, Greta as well as those above. We know a Margy (hard G).
I don't think I've come across since school days another Hester, or many a Muriel, Audrey, Priscilla or Irene. Ulster tended to be a redoubt of unfashionable names, passed down from grannies and great-aunts - Bertha, Mabel (not merely Mabel, but Mabel Wilhelmina). And one Juanita (I think the parents must have had the Spanish honeymoon).
Until I went up to university I never of course met a Niamh or a Bernadette.
As @fineline has said, Peggy and Peg were originally diminutives of Margaret, just as Polly was a diminutive of Mary via Molly. No idea where the shift from 'M' to 'P' comes from. The assumption that a parrot would be called Polly seems to come from a Broadside Ballad which seems once to have been very widely known.
I also agree that Hannahs, Rachels, Rebeccas, Peters, Pauls and Johns do often tend to be church kids. I once guessed correctly that the husband of a mother of three sisters listed as Rachel, Rebekah and Ruth would turn out to be a Rev.
For the reasons already given, Randy is out of the question as a name in the UK. Claudia, though is fine, and rather stylish.
Incidentally, since she ruled after US independence are Victoria (short form Vicky) used as names much or even known south of the 49th Parallel?
Until I went up to university I never of course met a Niamh or a Bernadette.
Bernadette was a moderately common name here, usually a Catholic girl in the days when that mattered. I don't know how many clients I had over the years, all sorts of names from many different nationalities, but no Niamh amongst them. Spellcheck seems to know it though.
@Gee D what's confusing is that Niamh is pronounced either Neeve or sometimes with a slight extra syllable a bit like Neeǝve.
Bernadette is an almost exclusively Catholic name as it's from St Bernadette of Lourdes. It's possibly even more a Catholic name than Wesley is a Methodist one.
Bernadette was restricted on that basis, but with the breakdown in all those barriers names once indicative of one or the other are now in general use.
Niamh is unheard here. No one would know how to pronounce, it would be assumed to be ethnic something. And if said as neeve would always be misspelled. I learned about this name only a year or so ago, in my 7th decade of life.
I'm also reminded of names like Jaxson, Jaxsyn, Jacks'n, all of which burden the bearer with spelling, though probably pronounced correctly from writing.
Priscilla is denigrated as well because of the term prissy. Which means to be a polite but rigid and bossy person.
Victoria being a city in Canada, I think this makes it less likely. Vicky isn't a liked name, I know one in her 60s.
I've seen that Dido has emerged as a given name for girls. Because it also means grandfather in Ukrainian as spoken here (pronounced dee-dough, with almost equal stress on the syllables).
They've recently instituted here that to get a name change you have to get a criminal records check. The number of people wanting to rename themselves had greatly increased and included some sex offenders.
Not sure if it has spread eastwards, but a common North American word is pronounced 'bullion' in the supermarkets, as in gold bars, when in fact you want 'bouillon', which is not recognized when you want vegetable or meat concentrates.
And back to names, a local lawyer has a son and daughter named Will and Sue.
No-Prophet says that it's the right pronunciation. I have no idea about that, but it's the pronunciation everyone here uses. For the younger generation, taco rolls are a common source of nourishment on the way home from the pub.
The most confusing male name for spelling is Jonathan, Jonathon, Jonothan, Jonothon, Johnathon, Johnothan, Johnathan, Johnothon. There may be more variations than these, but I have seen all the ones in my list. I know that spelling of children's names creates a nightmare for teachers.
My here is suburban Sydney - from memory you're further north, is that right?
Yes, and west as well. How is it supposed to be pronounced? I’ve not heard it said in Spanish.
@rhubarb, I’m a teacher, and now check the roll for correct spelling, and check with the children for preferred pronunciation. I had a student whose name was spelt Amelia, and pronounced Um-a-lia...
My here is suburban Sydney - from memory you're further north, is that right?
Yes, and west as well. How is it supposed to be pronounced? I’ve not heard it said in Spanish.
@rhubarb, I’m a teacher, and now check the roll for correct spelling, and check with the children for preferred pronunciation. I had a student whose name was spelt Amelia, and pronounced Um-a-lia...
That would be the expected pronunciation in most European languages I'd think. English vowels, especially digraphs, dipthongs and long vowels, are weird, largely because of the Great Vowel Shift.
My here is suburban Sydney - from memory you're further north, is that right?
Yes, and west as well. How is it supposed to be pronounced? I’ve not heard it said in Spanish.
@rhubarb, I’m a teacher, and now check the roll for correct spelling, and check with the children for preferred pronunciation. I had a student whose name was spelt Amelia, and pronounced Um-a-lia...
I pronounce it tack-o, so obviously that's the correct way. No idea how it's pronounced by a Spaniard or someone speaking one of the traditional Mexican languages.
As to Amelia, I'd pronounce the A as an indeterminate e, hitch the m and the l to the a, and make the ia more like a ya so it becomes e-meal-ya. But if that's how the girl pronounces it, that's how I'd address her.
I pronounce it tack-o, so obviously that's the correct way. No idea how it's pronounced by a Spaniard or someone speaking one of the traditional Mexican languages.
Comments
And one very famous person who is called Lillibet by her family ....
A quick search of Scotlandspeople shows that there have been hundreds of Alexander Alexanders since official registration began in 1855.
All went together to see a bird's nest,
They found one nest with five eggs in,
They each took one and left four in.
So I read somewhere.
Among well-known folk, Alec Baldwin and Alec Douglas-Home are examples of the former (both Alexanders), and Alec Guinness an example of the latter.
They remain excellent. I have the whole series, and reread them every few years.
For girls/women, some names are definitely perceived negatively. Bertha means fat (big Bertha I think was a weapon), and Claudia means the person is a clod (not smart).
There are a number of people I know, including my brother, who use none of their given names at all, and are known by something altogether different. Some names are definitely denigrated, or sound too ethnic. I know a Muhammed who is affectionately called Moe and periodically Moose.
Something I observed as a kid, going to Baptist churches in the UK, was that most church kids had biblical names - lots of Hannahs, Rachels, Rebeccas, Peters, Pauls and Johns. All names that were fairly common names in general, but used much more in a church setting. I would often feel like the odd one out at church, as I would mentally go through everyone's names and realise I was the only kid in Sunday School with a non-biblical name! But when I went to Bible school for a year, before uni, where a lot of students were North American, I observed that the North American Christians my age were far less likely to have these names - they mostly had non-biblical names, or occasionally less usual biblical names, like Damaris.
Similarly when I was in Canada in my 20s, the church people my age there tended not to have biblical names. What I noticed with the little kids (I taught Sunday School, so got to know all the kids' names) was the little girls would generally have non-biblical names (often newer names that I hadn't heard in the UK at all) while the little boys would more often have less-usual biblical names, like Ezra and Malachi.
No idea if my experience is representative in any way, or if anyone else has ever observed similar, but it was interesting to observe. I've noticed among my Canadian church friends who now have children that the same pattern seems to happen. Girls have modern, non-biblical names and boys often have less-usual biblical names (by 'less usual', I mean these names were/are not common names in the UK, and also didn't seem common outside of church settings in the part of Canada where I was, so it is of course subjective).
Interesting how the use of names varies by region.
I've never heard of Claudia being perceived negatively. I don't think (unless I'm just oblivious) that this association happens in the UK - the 'claud' part is not a homophone of 'clod' in most British accents. I know a few Claudias. The names Sharon and Tracey were perceived negatively in the UK for a while, because of certain TV shows, but that seems to have passed by now. Right now, the name Karen is getting a bad rap (in North America too, I believe, and no doubt elsewhere) as representing an idea of the stereotypical 'boomer' who judges people and complains self-importantly about unimportant things. So I imagine there might be a drop in babies being named that for a while.
I don't think Randy was ever common in the UK as a name, because of the sexual meaning it has here. It'd be like naming a kid Horny.
I know three Randys. The youngest is about 30.
Can't believe no-one has mentioned the UK's most popular Xander at the moment. Guess the Ship doesn't have many fans of Pointless... Alexander Armstrong is often called Xander.
"Hi. I'm Randy!"
"Hi. Shouldn't we at least have a drink first?"
Until I went up to university I never of course met a Niamh or a Bernadette.
I also agree that Hannahs, Rachels, Rebeccas, Peters, Pauls and Johns do often tend to be church kids. I once guessed correctly that the husband of a mother of three sisters listed as Rachel, Rebekah and Ruth would turn out to be a Rev.
For the reasons already given, Randy is out of the question as a name in the UK. Claudia, though is fine, and rather stylish.
Incidentally, since she ruled after US independence are Victoria (short form Vicky) used as names much or even known south of the 49th Parallel?
I know a few Audreys and a couple of Irenes (most under 18).
Bernadette was a moderately common name here, usually a Catholic girl in the days when that mattered. I don't know how many clients I had over the years, all sorts of names from many different nationalities, but no Niamh amongst them. Spellcheck seems to know it though.
Bernadette is an almost exclusively Catholic name as it's from St Bernadette of Lourdes. It's possibly even more a Catholic name than Wesley is a Methodist one.
Bernadette was restricted on that basis, but with the breakdown in all those barriers names once indicative of one or the other are now in general use.
I'm also reminded of names like Jaxson, Jaxsyn, Jacks'n, all of which burden the bearer with spelling, though probably pronounced correctly from writing.
Priscilla is denigrated as well because of the term prissy. Which means to be a polite but rigid and bossy person.
Victoria being a city in Canada, I think this makes it less likely. Vicky isn't a liked name, I know one in her 60s.
I've seen that Dido has emerged as a given name for girls. Because it also means grandfather in Ukrainian as spoken here (pronounced dee-dough, with almost equal stress on the syllables).
They've recently instituted here that to get a name change you have to get a criminal records check. The number of people wanting to rename themselves had greatly increased and included some sex offenders.
And back to names, a local lawyer has a son and daughter named Will and Sue.
CRUH-sawnt
BULL-y'ohn
But we say fillet as fill-it. Which usually means the verb. A piece of fish would be said usually instead of a fillet as a noun.
I'm also reminded of "taco" which is commonly taw-co, but should be tack-o.
That's the pronunciation here.
I don't think I could keep a straight face.
No-Prophet says that it's the right pronunciation. I have no idea about that, but it's the pronunciation everyone here uses. For the younger generation, taco rolls are a common source of nourishment on the way home from the pub.
And on that note, I'm going to bed. Bay-ed.
My here is suburban Sydney - from memory you're further north, is that right?
@rhubarb, I’m a teacher, and now check the roll for correct spelling, and check with the children for preferred pronunciation. I had a student whose name was spelt Amelia, and pronounced Um-a-lia...
That would be the expected pronunciation in most European languages I'd think. English vowels, especially digraphs, dipthongs and long vowels, are weird, largely because of the Great Vowel Shift.
I pronounce it tack-o, so obviously that's the correct way. No idea how it's pronounced by a Spaniard or someone speaking one of the traditional Mexican languages.
As to Amelia, I'd pronounce the A as an indeterminate e, hitch the m and the l to the a, and make the ia more like a ya so it becomes e-meal-ya. But if that's how the girl pronounces it, that's how I'd address her.
Tah-co, which is how it’s pronounced in the US.