I don’t think Scots has the same short ‘a’ as northern English does.
Seven out of my eight great-grandparents were Scots, and the hw sound survives in me and my siblings. (My English born and raised children tease me for it, but nobody is ever in doubt about whether ‘great news about W...........’ is good news for cetaceans, or for the Principality.)
My English born and raised children tease me for it, but nobody is ever in doubt about whether ‘great news about W...........’ is good news for cetaceans, or for the Principality.
But then you can't do the full elephant litany. (The one that starts, How do you get four elephants in a mini?)
Some people might see that as a plus.
The breathy 'wh' was definitely still a thing in Northern Ireland, if our posher sounding teachers were anything to go by. Even now I find myself saying it having been drilled to it by one particular RE teacher who seemed to make quite a virtue of it.
And I'm surprized/surprised about what Alien from Zog says bout the ise/ize thing. Again, from earliest days in primary school, it was always -ize. Somehow I always thought -ise was a modern import from the US.
I love all the variations on 'Mary'. In Ireland, north and south there is the 'Meery' pronunciation, which seems to be a kind of vernacular way of saying it. In church the priest might talk about 'Mary, the mother of God'. But Auntie Meery will be the one who buys you a selection box for Christmas.
I think the /hw/ pronunciation was considered posh and well-spoken, I mean in England. But it seems to be dying out. (Rushes off to study old film of queen).
Historical point, that 'who' went the whole hog and got rid of /w/.
I love all the variations on 'Mary'. In Ireland, north and south there is the 'Meery' pronunciation, which seems to be a kind of vernacular way of saying it. In church the priest might talk about 'Mary, the mother of God'. But Auntie Meery will be the one who buys you a selection box for Christmas.
I've noticed Dublin RC priests say 'Jesus' with an /s/ and not a /z/ in the middle. I don't know why!
I love all the variations on 'Mary'. In Ireland, north and south there is the 'Meery' pronunciation, which seems to be a kind of vernacular way of saying it. In church the priest might talk about 'Mary, the mother of God'. But Auntie Meery will be the one who buys you a selection box for Christmas.
I've noticed Dublin RC priests say 'Jesus' with an /s/ and not a /z/ in the middle. I don't know why!
... I find it very soothing to listen to - I like to hear Scottish people talk ...
I wish I had a fiver for every time someone in Canada said to me, "I love your accent!" - I'm going to rather miss being a linguistic curiosity!
I deliberately put my name down to read the Intercessions on the last Sunday I was in Fredericton, because I knew people liked to hear me read (and, because it was a Prayer Book service, I could use the Prayer for the Church Militant, which lots of people liked, but nobody else seemed to use).
... I find it very soothing to listen to - I like to hear Scottish people talk ...
I wish I had a fiver for every time someone in Canada said to me, "I love your accent!" - I'm going to rather miss being a linguistic curiosity!
I experienced that when I was in Canada, with my southern English accent. Sometimes people weren't actually listening to what I was saying, but just enjoying the accent!
Once when I was working in Texas I had to phone someone in Washington, I think it was, and had hardly finished introducing myself before she said, "I love the English dramas on public TV!"
When I was in seminary in Chicago some of the other students asked me to teach them to say “God” because they thought it sounded so much holier when I said it. This was a Presbyterian seminary, so maybe they were conditioned to find a Scottish accent holy!
Later, when I served at a suburban Methodist church I became aware of regular disturbances in the choir when I preached. The choir was just on my fringe of vision. So I made discreet inquiries, in case I was making some unintentional faux pas. But no, they just thought the way I said “Lord” was cute and passed a nudge along the row whenever I said it. Well, it kept them listening!
Ha, some of my friends in Canada asked me to say 'You know my name is Simon and I like to do drawings', because of the Mike Myers sketch from Saturday Night Live, where he is putting on an English accent, and exaggerating the intrusive 'r' that many English people use when saying 'drawing.' I hadn't heard of the sketch, and had no idea why I was being asked to say something so odd, but I said it and they fell about laughing.
We had a gentleman from Antigua (which he and his wife pronounced An-TEE-gwa, whereas the news folks and others here pronounce An-TEE-ga) in our church. He had the most glorious accent which to my ears was very British sounding and had actually been a radio broadcaster at his home. Every year, he was asked to read the Isaiah scripture for Christmas Eve services, and bless his heart, every year he did so! You could see everyone in the congregation enjoy his reading, starting with "From the book of Isaiah..." which he pronounced I-sigh-ah, as opposed to our mixed southern I-zay-a.
When I was in seminary in Chicago some of the other students asked me to teach them to say “God” because they thought it sounded so much holier when I said it. This was a Presbyterian seminary, so maybe they were conditioned to find a Scottish accent holy!
Without a doubt. American Presbyterians love a Scottish accent in the pulpit.
We had a gentleman from Antigua (which he and his wife pronounced An-TEE-gwa, whereas the news folks and others here pronounce An-TEE-ga) in our church. He had the most glorious accent which to my ears was very British sounding and had actually been a radio broadcaster at his home. Every year, he was asked to read the Isaiah scripture for Christmas Eve services, and bless his heart, every year he did so! You could see everyone in the congregation enjoy his reading, starting with "From the book of Isaiah..." which he pronounced I-sigh-ah, as opposed to our mixed southern I-zay-a.
He made Christmas even more special!
There was an old king from Antigua
Whose wife said to him: What a pig you are.
He turned to his queen,
Said: "Is it manners you mean,
Or do you refer to my figure?"
From which I've always assumed that it is a short "i".
A college (uni) mate of mine, now a Presbyterian minister, said that when he was in high school he want on a holy land trip with a woman from the US South. He told her it was cute the way she said Bahhhh-buhhhhhl. She asked him how he pronounced it? By-b'l. She replied, "Why it don't hardly sound like the word of God like that."
When I was in seminary in Chicago some of the other students asked me to teach them to say “God” because they thought it sounded so much holier when I said it. This was a Presbyterian seminary, so maybe they were conditioned to find a Scottish accent holy!
Without a doubt. American Presbyterians love a Scottish accent in the pulpit.
And American Episcopalians tend to like English accents in their pulpits.
You could see everyone in the congregation enjoy his reading, starting with "From the book of Isaiah..." which he pronounced I-sigh-ah, as opposed to our mixed southern I-zay-a.
When I was at uni, years ago, I went to a church with an American pastor who pronounced certain names and places in the Bible quite differently from what we English people were used to. And again I noticed the same differences when I was in Canada.
Pronunciation of Isaiah was one example - he said I-zay-a, like you do, Judy, while we say I-zy-a. Another was Philemon, which he said as FILL-a-mon, while we say fye-LEE-mun. And also Joseph - in southern England, at least, people generally say it with a 'z' in the middle, while he used an 's.'
Thinking of places, he pronounced Nineveh with an 'ay' sound at the end, while in the UK I've only heard it with an 'uh' sound (schwa) at the end.
There were quite a few more, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.
I love all the variations on 'Mary'. In Ireland, north and south there is the 'Meery' pronunciation, which seems to be a kind of vernacular way of saying it. In church the priest might talk about 'Mary, the mother of God'. But Auntie Meery will be the one who buys you a selection box for Christmas.
I've noticed Dublin RC priests say 'Jesus' with an /s/ and not a /z/ in the middle. I don't know why!
Antigua is an-tee-ga and Guyana is Guy-anna, with the guy a long I sound. It's never a long E sound. To the people from both. (Family lived there).
Which leads to Caribbean. CUH-rib-ee-in or care-uh-BE-in? I actually say both depending on who I'm talking to.
We have in Saskatchewan (which if you're asked to say, we know immediately of you're luck) a small town called named Mozart, which post office remains open because people send self addressed envelopes to get the post office stamp on them. It's said mose-ert (rhymes with dessert).
This is where you have to be careful. To me, a long I is the sound English spells as 'ee'. The sound in "I" and "High" is a dipthong, not a long vowel.
Caribbean is interesting because of different stress positions, I know 'Caribbean and Ca'ribbean, but Cari'bbean is possible. Must ask somebody Irish, as they have different stresses from English English.
Primary emphasis on the 'bee' and secondary emphasis on the 'ca' is the traditional RP way of saying Caribbean. If you log into the OED online, it's the first pronunciation there, and you can click to hear it.
Edit: Or here, the Cambridge Dictionary, which you don't have to log into.
Primary emphasis on the 'bee' and secondary emphasis on the 'ca' is the traditional RP way of saying Caribbean. If you log into the OED online, it's the first pronunciation there, and you can click to hear it.
Edit: Or here, the Cambridge Dictionary, which you don't have to log into.
We have in Saskatchewan (which if you're asked to say, we know immediately of you're luck) a small town called named Mozart, which post office remains open because people send self addressed envelopes to get the post office stamp on them. It's said mose-ert (rhymes with dessert).
You could see everyone in the congregation enjoy his reading, starting with "From the book of Isaiah..." which he pronounced I-sigh-ah, as opposed to our mixed southern I-zay-a.
When I was at uni, years ago, I went to a church with an American pastor who pronounced certain names and places in the Bible quite differently from what we English people were used to. And again I noticed the same differences when I was in Canada.
Pronunciation of Isaiah was one example - he said I-zay-a, like you do, Judy, while we say I-zy-a. Another was Philemon, which he said as FILL-a-mon, while we say fye-LEE-mun. And also Joseph - in southern England, at least, people generally say it with a 'z' in the middle, while he used an 's.'
Thinking of places, he pronounced Nineveh with an 'ay' sound at the end, while in the UK I've only heard it with an 'uh' sound (schwa) at the end.
There were quite a few more, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.
FWIW, this American (American South) says, and usually hears, fi-LEE-mən and NIH-nə-və.
I just realized that the HTML codes for phonetic symbols haven't changed since I were a lad, hence, ə, and other delicacies. It's the future!
I actually had no idea there were HTML codes for phonetic symbols - this is handy. Easier than copying and pasting each symbol from its Wikipedia page, which is what I have done in the past. Though I also tend to use regular alphabet letters here as an approximation for pronunciation, as I'm not sure to what extent people are familiar with IPA, and I don't want to be exclusionary. But I guess everyone knows the schwa. Here is a web page I just found of HTML codes for phonetic symbols. Is it just me or does the schwa symbol, ə, look quite a bit smaller than the English text?
I am wondering what different English speakers call their parents, and grandparents? My parents were Mommy and Daddy. Grandparents were Grandmother last name, ( I had two) and Granddaddy. (I had only one.) I continued to use these names even as an adult. It was a Southern thing I am guessing that I did not shorten to Mom and Dad.
My parents were Mommy and Daddy when I was young, Mom and Dad when I was older. My paternal grandmother was Grandma. My maternal grandmother was Swedish, and we called her Mormor (literally "mother's mother"). Both of my grandfathers had died before I was born.
I (also American Southern) called my parents Momma and Daddy (pronounced more like “deddy”), until as a young adult I learned my momma actually preferred to be called Mother (which she called her own mother). So I made the switch.
Wife and I were Mommy and Daddy when the kids were little, but became Mom and Dad as they grew older.
My grandparents were Gran’Mary and Gran’daddy, and Gran and Daddy Mac. My parents were Gran and Gran’daddy to their grandkids. My mother-in-law is Mimi to her grandkids, and her mother (the only one of my wife’s grandparents that I knew) was Grammy.
Ok, here in England I called my parents Mummy and Daddy which became Mum and Dad once I was in my teens. My paternal grandparents were Grandma and Grandad , and maternal grandparents were Nana and Grandad. The two Grandads were distinguished by using their surnames in cases of ambiguity when referring to them in conversation.
My parents were addressed as Mummy and Daddy - still are - Mum and Dad were deprecated. Paternal grandparents were Gran and Papa. Maternal grandmother died before I was born, but would probably have been Grandma. Maternal grandfather was Grandad.
What about the h in where and white? Is it very old-fashioned to pronounce it?
Not in Scotland.
Exactly what I was about to say!
D., who was English, and didn't voice it very strongly in ordinary speech, always insisted on his singers voicing the "h" in white and where, even suggesting that we voice it before the "w" - "hwere", so that it would be heard in a big acoustic.
That would actually be consistent with the original spelling. All of our "wh" question words were once "hw", many centuries ago.
I was quite startled when I found this out. But when I learned Danish I noticed that all their question words start with "hv". It turns out the Danes have preserved the original idea and English has shifted.
I am wondering what different English speakers call their parents, and grandparents? My parents were Mommy and Daddy. Grandparents were Grandmother last name, ( I had two) and Granddaddy. (I had only one.) I continued to use these names even as an adult. It was a Southern thing I am guessing that I did not shorten to Mom and Dad.
Grandad... I genuinely am unsure about how many 'd's I want to spell that with and now I feel like going to a newsagent to find a card just to check (neither of mine have been living for some time).
And one Grandma and, most crucially, on the other side it's Nana. And Lord help you if you spell it "Nanna" which the majority of cards seem to. I've no idea how the 'Nana' terminology started but in my mother's line that's quite definitely the term.
We have in Saskatchewan (which if you're asked to say, we know immediately of you're luck) a small town called named Mozart, which post office remains open because people send self addressed envelopes to get the post office stamp on them. It's said mose-ert (rhymes with dessert).
You pronounce dessert "dose-ert"?
Hadn't really thought of it but it's somewhere between des with short e and dose.
It reminds me of pillow, which is pellow sort of for many here.
The names Ian/Iain and Ann are distinct here, but were not distinct in mid-west USA when we visited. And Ann was said in almost 2 syllables. So was dog: daw-awg. It's a very short awe sound here. Diaper is dye-per here. They said dye-a-per. Which if shopping we buy, we don't tend to purchase. Though a purchase will also refer to getting a good hold with your hand on something: "I had a good purchase on it, but it let go anyway." not "anyhow".
Garage. Which is a guh-RAJ. The j sounds like as in Jim or gym.
I am wondering what different English speakers call their parents, and grandparents? My parents were Mommy and Daddy. Grandparents were Grandmother last name, ( I had two) and Granddaddy. (I had only one.) I continued to use these names even as an adult. It was a Southern thing I am guessing that I did not shorten to Mom and Dad.
My parents were rather old-fashioned and our upbringing fairly formal. Our parents were Mama and Papa, occasionally Daddy for our father. Our paternal grandmother was Grandma, maternal grandparents were Grandmama and Grandpapa. Two great-grandmothers were Granny for one and Grand-gran for the other.
Things loosened up a bit when we were adults and our father became Daddy all the time, but Mama remained just that to her death.
Comments
Seven out of my eight great-grandparents were Scots, and the hw sound survives in me and my siblings. (My English born and raised children tease me for it, but nobody is ever in doubt about whether ‘great news about W...........’ is good news for cetaceans, or for the Principality.)
Some people might see that as a plus.
And I'm surprized/surprised about what Alien from Zog says bout the ise/ize thing. Again, from earliest days in primary school, it was always -ize. Somehow I always thought -ise was a modern import from the US.
I love all the variations on 'Mary'. In Ireland, north and south there is the 'Meery' pronunciation, which seems to be a kind of vernacular way of saying it. In church the priest might talk about 'Mary, the mother of God'. But Auntie Meery will be the one who buys you a selection box for Christmas.
Historical point, that 'who' went the whole hog and got rid of /w/.
I've noticed Dublin RC priests say 'Jesus' with an /s/ and not a /z/ in the middle. I don't know why!
The /z/ phoneme is absent in Irish.
I deliberately put my name down to read the Intercessions on the last Sunday I was in Fredericton, because I knew people liked to hear me read (and, because it was a Prayer Book service, I could use the Prayer for the Church Militant, which lots of people liked, but nobody else seemed to use).
Not the same sound, but there's no difference between the a in hat, bath and palm.
I experienced that when I was in Canada, with my southern English accent. Sometimes people weren't actually listening to what I was saying, but just enjoying the accent!
Later, when I served at a suburban Methodist church I became aware of regular disturbances in the choir when I preached. The choir was just on my fringe of vision. So I made discreet inquiries, in case I was making some unintentional faux pas. But no, they just thought the way I said “Lord” was cute and passed a nudge along the row whenever I said it. Well, it kept them listening!
He made Christmas even more special!
There was an old king from Antigua
Whose wife said to him: What a pig you are.
He turned to his queen,
Said: "Is it manners you mean,
Or do you refer to my figure?"
From which I've always assumed that it is a short "i".
And American Episcopalians tend to like English accents in their pulpits.
When I was at uni, years ago, I went to a church with an American pastor who pronounced certain names and places in the Bible quite differently from what we English people were used to. And again I noticed the same differences when I was in Canada.
Pronunciation of Isaiah was one example - he said I-zay-a, like you do, Judy, while we say I-zy-a. Another was Philemon, which he said as FILL-a-mon, while we say fye-LEE-mun. And also Joseph - in southern England, at least, people generally say it with a 'z' in the middle, while he used an 's.'
Thinking of places, he pronounced Nineveh with an 'ay' sound at the end, while in the UK I've only heard it with an 'uh' sound (schwa) at the end.
There were quite a few more, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.
Stone the crows, I didn't know that.
Really? What about B'jesus?
That's English.
Don't Irish people tend to avoid /z/ in words like Jesus, in English?
Not generally. But the non-z pronunciation of Jesus reported in Dublin RC priests *could* be a hangover from a habit derived from Irish.
Which leads to Caribbean. CUH-rib-ee-in or care-uh-BE-in? I actually say both depending on who I'm talking to.
We have in Saskatchewan (which if you're asked to say, we know immediately of you're luck) a small town called named Mozart, which post office remains open because people send self addressed envelopes to get the post office stamp on them. It's said mose-ert (rhymes with dessert).
Edit: Or here, the Cambridge Dictionary, which you don't have to log into.
Yes, I got it wrong. Cari'bbean is RP.
You pronounce dessert "dose-ert"?
eye-ZAY-uh
fye-LEE-mun
Joseph with 's' (non-voiced)
NIN-nə-və
I actually had no idea there were HTML codes for phonetic symbols - this is handy. Easier than copying and pasting each symbol from its Wikipedia page, which is what I have done in the past. Though I also tend to use regular alphabet letters here as an approximation for pronunciation, as I'm not sure to what extent people are familiar with IPA, and I don't want to be exclusionary. But I guess everyone knows the schwa. Here is a web page I just found of HTML codes for phonetic symbols. Is it just me or does the schwa symbol, ə, look quite a bit smaller than the English text?
Must tell my cousins in Cork that - making sure I'm wearing body-armour first, of course
(I grew up in the northeastern U.S.)
Wife and I were Mommy and Daddy when the kids were little, but became Mom and Dad as they grew older.
My grandparents were Gran’Mary and Gran’daddy, and Gran and Daddy Mac. My parents were Gran and Gran’daddy to their grandkids. My mother-in-law is Mimi to her grandkids, and her mother (the only one of my wife’s grandparents that I knew) was Grammy.
That would actually be consistent with the original spelling. All of our "wh" question words were once "hw", many centuries ago.
I was quite startled when I found this out. But when I learned Danish I noticed that all their question words start with "hv". It turns out the Danes have preserved the original idea and English has shifted.
Grandad... I genuinely am unsure about how many 'd's I want to spell that with and now I feel like going to a newsagent to find a card just to check (neither of mine have been living for some time).
And one Grandma and, most crucially, on the other side it's Nana. And Lord help you if you spell it "Nanna" which the majority of cards seem to. I've no idea how the 'Nana' terminology started but in my mother's line that's quite definitely the term.
Hadn't really thought of it but it's somewhere between des with short e and dose.
It reminds me of pillow, which is pellow sort of for many here.
The names Ian/Iain and Ann are distinct here, but were not distinct in mid-west USA when we visited. And Ann was said in almost 2 syllables. So was dog: daw-awg. It's a very short awe sound here. Diaper is dye-per here. They said dye-a-per. Which if shopping we buy, we don't tend to purchase. Though a purchase will also refer to getting a good hold with your hand on something: "I had a good purchase on it, but it let go anyway." not "anyhow".
Garage. Which is a guh-RAJ. The j sounds like as in Jim or gym.
My parents were rather old-fashioned and our upbringing fairly formal. Our parents were Mama and Papa, occasionally Daddy for our father. Our paternal grandmother was Grandma, maternal grandparents were Grandmama and Grandpapa. Two great-grandmothers were Granny for one and Grand-gran for the other.
Things loosened up a bit when we were adults and our father became Daddy all the time, but Mama remained just that to her death.