Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    edited March 2020
    Gee D wrote: »
    It modifies "a" to almost an "ar" and lengthens it a bit.

    You're talking about spelling, not the sounds themselves. We use certain letters in spelling to indicate a certain sound, and this can be unrelated to the speech sound they usually represent. There is no h in ah. We just put it there to indicate that it's a long a, not the a in cat.

    A g can also be used in spelling to alter a vowel (eg. sign), but the speech sound g (voiced velar stop) is not a vowel.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    It modifies "a" to almost an "ar" and lengthens it a bit.

    What, you mean it sounds like "father" where the "a" does the same thing on its own just fine?

    Or indeed, the second half of "ah-ha"?

    I think you should quit while you're only slightly behind...

    Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Think of the effort the poor little letter has to do on its own in the examples you put forward.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    w and y are a particular type of consonant known as an approximant. They are also known as semivowels, for the reasons I was demonstrating in my previous post. Maybe the Wikipedia pages make it clearer. It is interesting, if you are interested in that sort of stuff.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Gee D wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    It modifies "a" to almost an "ar" and lengthens it a bit.

    What, you mean it sounds like "father" where the "a" does the same thing on its own just fine?

    Or indeed, the second half of "ah-ha"?

    I think you should quit while you're only slightly behind...

    Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Think of the effort the poor little letter has to do on its own in the examples you put forward.

    Exactly the same amount as any number of "a"s do without an "h" being anywhere in sight.

    So you've decided to dig. I'd consider explaining the Great Vowel Shift but I'm trying to prepare dinner.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    I note that the Wikipedia page on the letter 'H' explicitly uses "ah" as one of the examples where the letter is silent.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    I've noticed my South Wales nephew-in-law has an interesting way of using "y" in such words as "year" which is somehow more of a consonant than in the English I learned in Kent. Something like "yuh", further back in the mouth.
    Also, we have a Welsh place name in South London - Pen Coed, the head of the wood, aka Penge = the English settlers thought the suffix was their "ge" or "region", as in Lyminge
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    It modifies "a" to almost an "ar" and lengthens it a bit.

    What, you mean it sounds like "father" where the "a" does the same thing on its own just fine?

    Or indeed, the second half of "ah-ha"?

    I think you should quit while you're only slightly behind...

    Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Think of the effort the poor little letter has to do on its own in the examples you put forward.

    Exactly the same amount as any number of "a"s do without an "h" being anywhere in sight.

    So you've decided to dig. I'd consider explaining the Great Vowel Shift but I'm trying to prepare dinner.

    I have ours nicely ready. Early tonight, too cold to be standing outside over the bbq. Far from dug in, save for the defence of innocent letters
  • Robertus LRobertus L Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Penny S wrote: »
    I've noticed my South Wales nephew-in-law has an interesting way of using "y" in such words as "year" which is somehow more of a consonant than in the English I learned in Kent. Something like "yuh", further back in the mouth.
    Also, we have a Welsh place name in South London - Pen Coed, the head of the wood, aka Penge = the English settlers thought the suffix was their "ge" or "region", as in Lyminge

    In some southern Welsh Englsh accents the words 'year' 'ear' 'here' and 'your' are practically indistinguishable.

    There's also an entire London Underground map that's had all the place names 'translated' in to Welsh, some a bit tenuous 🤔
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Robertus L wrote: »
    Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.
    “Nanny,” “Nanna” and “Nan” are fairly common names for grandmothers around here (American South). My sister is “Nan” to her grandkids. (Her husband is “Pop.”)

    In the UK it all depends on upbringing and background. For some the word "Nanny" has two possible meanings - a female goat or a trained live-in childcarer. "Nana" (sometimes spelled with two Ns) is the dog in Peter Pan. "Nan" is how some describe the bread you get with Indian food.

  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I remember reading Jilly Cooper's tongue-in-cheek book Class years ago, and she said that the upper middle classes call their grandmother 'Grandma,' while lower middle classes call their grandmother 'Nana,' which confuses the upper middle classes, because for them, Nana is the dog in Peter Pan. (Or something like that - it was more humorous the way she wrote it!)
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Robertus L wrote: »
    Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.
    “Nanny,” “Nanna” and “Nan” are fairly common names for grandmothers around here (American South). My sister is “Nan” to her grandkids. (Her husband is “Pop.”)

    In the UK it all depends on upbringing and background. For some the word "Nanny" has two possible meanings - a female goat or a trained live-in childcarer. "Nana" (sometimes spelled with two Ns) is the dog in Peter Pan. "Nan" is how some describe the bread you get with Indian food.
    All those meanings are present here, except that the Indian bread is Naan, and if the female goat is meant, the term is “nanny goat.” Doesn’t keep any of the words from being used for a grandmother, though “nanny” probably isn’t as common as it was 50 years ago.

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Robertus L wrote: »
    Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.
    “Nanny,” “Nanna” and “Nan” are fairly common names for grandmothers around here (American South). My sister is “Nan” to her grandkids. (Her husband is “Pop.”)

    In the UK it all depends on upbringing and background. For some the word "Nanny" has two possible meanings - a female goat or a trained live-in childcarer. "Nana" (sometimes spelled with two Ns) is the dog in Peter Pan. "Nan" is how some describe the bread you get with Indian food.
    All those meanings are present here, except that the Indian bread is Naan, and if the female goat is meant, the term is “nanny goat.” Doesn’t keep any of the words from being used for a grandmother, though “nanny” probably isn’t as common as it was 50 years ago.

    Hmmm - my mother and her mother and grandmother before her were nanas.

    Nan isn't pronounced the same as Naan. Naan has a long (as in ah, not as in make) 'a' sound. Nan has a short 'a'.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Nan isn't pronounced the same as Naan. Naan has a long (as in ah, not as in make) 'a' sound. Nan has a short 'a'.
    That’s the case here—Naan rhymes (more or less) with swan, and nan rhymes with can. But given the “taco” discussion, I didn’t want to make guesses about elsewhere. :wink:

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Swan rhymes with Ron. Naan rhymes with barn (barring the r for rhotic accents). They're distinct here.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Naan is the correct English spelling of the Hindi word.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I've found that whether a person refers to Mum or Mom is quite a reliable indicator of which side of the Atlantic they are on. In Wales, of course, though, it's Mam.

    Both Dad and Nan may come originally from Welsh.
  • rhubarbrhubarb Shipmate
    Only people on the American continent seem to say Mom. I find it odd because little babies when they babble say "Mum Mum". However, their parents say Mom and the children are taught what to say.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    It modifies "a" to almost an "ar" and lengthens it a bit.

    Not here it doesn't.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Where in the US are you please? I keep thinking it's upper mid-west.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Enoch wrote: »
    I've found that whether a person refers to Mum or Mom is quite a reliable indicator of which side of the Atlantic they are on.

    I used to think that, and then discovered that 'Mom' is used quite a bit in the Midlands too.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    fineline wrote: »
    I used to think that, and then discovered that 'Mom' is used quite a bit in the Midlands too.
    Are you sure that isn't just 'Mum' spoken with a Brummy accent?

  • Surely that comes out to rhyme Mum with Put?
  • My mother came from Lancashire, my father from Wales, and we called both sets of grandparents Nana and Grampy. I always thought these were Welsh terms, but comments here have got me wondering if they were Lancastrian.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Enoch wrote: »
    fineline wrote: »
    I used to think that, and then discovered that 'Mom' is used quite a bit in the Midlands too.
    Are you sure that isn't just 'Mum' spoken with a Brummy accent?

    Well, it is written 'Mom.' I come across it all the time on social media. It may well be Mum with a Brummy accent, but if it is written 'Mom,' then it is 'Mom.' Shortened forms do tend to be written phonetically.

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    My mother came from Lancashire, my father from Wales, and we called both sets of grandparents Nana and Grampy. I always thought these were Welsh terms, but comments here have got me wondering if they were Lancastrian.

    Nain and Taid in the N., Mam-gu and Tad-gu in the S., mainly.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    It modifies "a" to almost an "ar" and lengthens it a bit.

    Not here it doesn't.

    Nor here (American South). And @Gee D, @mousethief is in the American Pacific Northwest.

  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    fineline wrote: »
    ... Well, it is written 'Mom.' I come across it all the time on social media ...
    I'm inclined to think that might be an American spell-checker or predictive text. I don't think any Brits would instinctively spell "Mum" as "Mom" - I certainly wouldn't.
  • fineline wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    fineline wrote: »
    I used to think that, and then discovered that 'Mom' is used quite a bit in the Midlands too.
    Are you sure that isn't just 'Mum' spoken with a Brummy accent?

    Well, it is written 'Mom.' I come across it all the time on social media. It may well be Mum with a Brummy accent, but if it is written 'Mom,' then it is 'Mom.' Shortened forms do tend to be written phonetically.

    Righty-o, guv.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Piglet wrote: »
    fineline wrote: »
    ... Well, it is written 'Mom.' I come across it all the time on social media ...
    I'm inclined to think that might be an American spell-checker or predictive text. I don't think any Brits would instinctively spell "Mum" as "Mom" - I certainly wouldn't.

    Heh, I'm surprised people are disbelieving me! You could google rather than imagine. But it's worth pointing out that when I state something, especially something linguistic, I have generally been very thorough checking it, and if there is a doubt, I express that doubt. If I had simply heard people say what sounded like Mom in their accent, I would not have assumed they were spelling it Mom. And if I had just seen it now and then spelt 'Mom' and never talked to anyone about it, I wouldn't assume that was specifically a Midlands spelling. I am someone who needs to have had multiple conversations and read articles and such before I will accept something isn't simply an individual's quirk or an error. (In fact, at uni, whenever my linguistics teachers stated something about a certain pronunciation being Scottish or American, I would go onto my LiveJournal and ask all my Scottish and American friends if this were true, and get them to make voice recordings to prove it! :lol:)

    The first time I encountered a British person online talking about her 'Mom' was about fifteen years ago, and I immediately noticed and asked her about it. She said that yes, that is how she spells it, and no, it is not an Americanism, and where she lives this is how people spell it. She was from Birmingham. She wasn't the kind to make spelling errors. Her spelling was good. Is good. I am still friends with her on Facebook. However, I didn't know from that one conversation whether she was really representative of where she lives.

    However, since then, in various Facebook groups I'm in, there will sometimes be talk about how Americans use 'Mom' and Brits use 'Mum' or 'Mam,' and then quite a few people from the Midlands speak up and say that actually, where they're from, Mom is the norm. And sometimes in a British group, someone will talk about their 'Mom,' and people will 'correct' them, or comment on their Americanism, and they will invariably say it is not an Americanism, but the way people spell it in the Midlands. And there will be discussion about it - including the discussion that their pronunciation may have influenced the spelling, but nevertheless, it is definitely a deliberate spelling, and not an accidental usage of the American spelling.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I realise that might read as a rant, so wanted to clarify it was not intended in a hostile manner, and my frame of mind was simply bewildered. I didn't understand why I said something (something very straightforward and easy to google) and people seemed to simply assume I was probably mistaken. I guess I must express myself in a way that makes me seem like I'm not very logical or thorough. So, I looked in the OED, and give you a quote from there instead. :smile:

    In addition to North American use, mom is also found in English regional (West Midlands) use (cf. quot. 1996; quots. 1904 and 1911 show early use in British sources) and in South African English.
  • fineline wrote: »

    Heh, I'm surprised people are disbelieving me! You could google rather than imagine. But it's worth pointing out that when I state something, especially something linguistic, I have generally been very thorough checking it, and if there is a doubt, I express that doubt. If I had simply heard people say what sounded like Mom in their accent, I would not have assumed they were spelling it Mom. And if I had just seen it now and then spelt 'Mom' and never talked to anyone about it, I wouldn't assume that was specifically a Midlands spelling. I am someone who needs to have had multiple conversations and read articles and such before I will accept something isn't simply an individual's quirk or an error. (In fact, at uni, whenever my linguistics teachers stated something about a certain pronunciation being Scottish or American, I would go onto my LiveJournal and ask all my Scottish and American friends if this were true, and get them to make voice recordings to prove it! :lol:)

    Yes. I know you are. That is exactly why I covet you to come to the U.S. and be our proofreader and fact-checker, so we'd never make embarrassing mistakes again (such as the totally wrong phone number I caught on a brochure yesterday).

  • edited March 2020
    I only hear "mommy" and "mom" when people are mocking it. Mom said this way is like the word awe with M the front and back. But Mom is the more common spelling, but said as "mum". A mum is also a flower (chrysanthemum) and to keep mum is to not talk.

    My parents were usually Ma (said with a short U sound) and pappa (said like pawp-paw) and frequently pops after he got over the authoritarian idea he should be called "sir". My grandparents were 3 dead before I was born. The one I knew until age 6 was gramma. My wife's parents were gramma and grampa to my children. My parents absented themselves from our lives so never really got names. After I repatriated my doddering father, he's back to being pappa for everyone, except me who calls him "mein Vater" (mine f'awe-tuh) about half the time in a vain attempt to be closer to him.

    Do children call adults by their first names where you live? In my lifetime, it is common for children to do so once they're school age. Teachers not, doctors probably 50% of the time when younger than about 40, university professors with undergrad not usually, but has been first names with grad students for at least 45 years because it was when I went through. I think we're quite informal here comparatively.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Reminds me of Eustace Clarence Scrubb who did not call his parents Father and Mother but 'Harold' and 'Alberta'. (CSL clearly thought this a bad thing).
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I remember being quite taken aback when a colleague in Northern Ireland (who'd have then been in her 50s) always referring to her mother-in-law as "Mrs. X". It seemed very formal to me; D. and I had never called each other's parents by anything other than their Christian names.* I was introduced to D's parents as L. and N. (quite a while before D. and I were an item), and it would never have occurred to me to call them anything else.

    * well, I suppose D. would have initially called my dad Mr. Bain, as when he came to Orkney Dad was his boss ...
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    As my parents are ‘Mummy’ and ‘Daddy’ it worked well for me to call my in-laws, as my wife did, ‘Mum’ and ‘Dad’. She, by contrast, called my parents by their a Christian names. Everyone seemed happy with those arrangements.
  • My parents, who called their own parents Mother and Daddy, called each others’ parents Mom and Dad.

  • I was married for 26 (miserable) years and never called my in-laws anything. I guess I was waiting for them to tell me what they preferred. I don't remember my ex calling my parents anything either. We had no children, so grandparent names weren't an issue.
  • Tree BeeTree Bee Shipmate
    My Leicestershire-born husband used to call his Mum ‘Mam’, the first time I’d heard this pronunciation.
    My Mum used to call my Nana (her mother in law), ‘Mother’, while Nana herself would sign cards and letters ‘Ma’.
    I find children go through a period of calling their parents by their first names, just to try it out, then they go back to Mum and Dad or whatever.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    My father called his father-in-law Pop. My mother’s mother died before they were married. She called his parents Ma and Pa.
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    My parents were Mom and Dad, except when I was very young when they were Mommy and Daddy. Of my grandparents, my maternal grandparents were Grandma (last name) and Grandpa (first name). My paternal grandmother was just Grandma, unless it was to distinguish her from my other grandmother, in which case it was Grandma (last name). My paternal grandfather died before I was born, if referred to in passing, he was Grandpa (last name). When my daughter was young, I was Mommy, and her father was Daddy. Now I'm Mom, and her father, who has left her life, is either Dad, or "my father" depending on her mood. She called my parents Grandma and Grandpa, and my husband's mother also just Grandma.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    It modifies "a" to almost an "ar" and lengthens it a bit.

    Not here it doesn't.

    Nor here (American South). And @Gee D, @mousethief is in the American Pacific Northwest.

    Thank you - right latitude, wrong longitude.

    Which brings a new query - do people pronounce longitude with a hard or soft g?
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I've never heard longitude with a soft 'g'. Thinking about it, though, for reasons of euphony, I think quite a lot of people insert an extra letter after the 'g' either a 't' or a 'd' 'long-di-tewd.


    Quite an interesting one - or two actually - recently. The BBC likes to adopt pronunciations of foreign words that it thinks we ought to use, but are actually rather pretentious. For several days they were ostentatiously talking about a storm that they mysteriously called 'Storm Haw-Hay'. It was only after several days of this that I discovered that it was really 'Storm Jorge', so named because it was first identified by Spanish meteorologists.

    Now, however, that's pronounced in Spanish, I'm sure that it isn't pronounced 'Haw-Hay'. I'm fairly sure that at least one of those consonants (probably both) is some sort of guttural. To be intelligible at all in English, I'd say it has to be pronounced something like 'Jaw-jay' possibly with a slightly softer 'j' than in English so as to denote that one recognises it's not an English word.

    Presumably some edict had gone out from somewhere in Portland Place that that was how everybody had to say the word.

    Meanwhile, though, with all the reports on the floods in Shrewsbury, 'everybody' knows there are two ways of pronouncing the first syllable, 'Shroo' like the little animal, and 'Shrow' to rhyme with 'throw'. And 'everybody' also thinks the way they pronounce it is the right way, and the other way is wrong. So when one added up the reports on the floods there, it came out about evens which version of the town's name one heard.

  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    I've never heard longitude pronounced with a hard g, always soft.
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Enoch wrote: »
    Quite an interesting one - or two actually - recently. The BBC likes to adopt pronunciations of foreign words that it thinks we ought to use, but are actually rather pretentious. For several days they were ostentatiously talking about a storm that they mysteriously called 'Storm Haw-Hay'. It was only after several days of this that I discovered that it was really 'Storm Jorge', so named because it was first identified by Spanish meteorologists.

    Now, however, that's pronounced in Spanish, I'm sure that it isn't pronounced 'Haw-Hay'.

    I have a colleague named Jorge. Haw-hay is a pretty good approximation of a non-rhotic English-speaking person doing their best to say his name. I'd not call it pretentious to try and actually pronounce something correctly.

    I'd think he'd have every right to be offended if we started calling him George, or Zhor-zhay, or something, because we were afraid it was pretentious to try and say his name right.
    He might actually be OK with George as a straight anglicization of his name, but putting some random slightly foreign-sounding consonant in his name that isn't close to the one that's actually there, but "recognizes that we know it's foreign?"
  • Enoch wrote: »
    I've never heard longitude with a soft 'g'.
    Interesting, I was just about to post that, like NicoleMR, I’ve never heard longitude with a hard g. It’s LON-ji-tude here.

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    I would pronounce the first syllable like the word ‘long’ with ‘itude’ added to the end of it.
  • Firenze wrote: »
    Reminds me of Eustace Clarence Scrubb who did not call his parents Father and Mother but 'Harold' and 'Alberta'. (CSL clearly thought this a bad thing).

    He also disapproved of them being non smoking, teetotal vegetarians! How times have changed....
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    I would pronounce the first syllable like the word ‘long’ with ‘itude’ added to the end of it.

    That's an interesting variation I can't remember hearing. Most of the time, I hear a hard g, which is what I'd use, but sometimes a soft one.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Yes. I have heard long-gitude or lon-gitude and lonjitude.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    I've never heard longitude with a soft 'g'.
    Interesting, I was just about to post that, like NicoleMR, I’ve never heard longitude with a hard g. It’s LON-ji-tude here.

    That's the only way I've ever heard it as well.
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