Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    rhubarb wrote: »
    I don't know if this has been mentioned previously, but why do Americans pronounce CARAMEL as CARMEL? Other English speaking countries say CAR-A-MEL. This just doesn't make sense to me.
    Nor to me. It’s not all Americans who say “carmel,” it’s a regional thing. Where I am, it’s “car-a-mel.”

    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    In a couple of American novels I've come across Bryn used by girls. It's a fine Welsh name, but very much male (it was my father's). Why did it change, and how widespread is the feminine form?
    I haven’t encountered it IRL, either for a boy or a girl.
    Not even heard of Bryn Terfel?
    Sorry, I should have been more clear. @Robert Armin referred to American novels; by “in real life” I meant I have not encountered it as a name used in the US.

  • PigwidgeonPigwidgeon Shipmate
    rhubarb wrote: »
    I don't know if this has been mentioned previously, but why do Americans pronounce CARAMEL as CARMEL? Other English speaking countries say CAR-A-MEL. This just doesn't make sense to me.

    This American pronounces it with three syllables, as does everyone I know. Also, caramelized has four syllables.

    There's a church not far from me named Our Lady of Mount Carmel, but I don't think she was named after a confectionery syrup. :smile:
  • rhubarb wrote: »
    I don't know if this has been mentioned previously, but why do Americans pronounce CARAMEL as CARMEL? Other English speaking countries say CAR-A-MEL. This just doesn't make sense to me.
    Southern East Coast USA, I say Car-a mel. for the candy but carmel for the sauce and ice cream flavor. I never noticed that until I read your post.

  • There's also quite a difference between Brynmawr and Bryn Mawr, other than a local connection to coal mining.
  • MarthaMartha Shipmate
    It was definitely carmel (and often misspelled as such) when I lived in north Texas. Also mocha was pronounced moe (to rhyme with toe)-ka, whereas in the UK it is pronounced mokka (short o).
  • rhubarb wrote: »
    I don't know if this has been mentioned previously, but why do Americans pronounce CARAMEL as CARMEL? Other English speaking countries say CAR-A-MEL. This just doesn't make sense to me.

    We say and spell it "carmel". The opposite of what I understand in the UK re "medicine" which is med-i-cine with 3 syllables here.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited May 2020
    Martha wrote: »
    It was definitely carmel (and often misspelled as such) when I lived in north Texas. Also mocha was pronounced moe (to rhyme with toe)-ka, whereas in the UK it is pronounced mokka (short o).
    That's true as regards the 'o', but a lot of us, including me, pronounce the 'ch' like the 'ch' in 'loch'.

    I've no idea, by the way, what the 'right' pronunciation is, or even which language it originally comes from. That's just what I've usually heard.

    Whereas most people would understand yoe-gǝt, I think 'moe-ka' might get a puzzled stare.


  • Another Texan oddity I liked was their rendition of 'vehicle', which came across as 'vee-hickle, almost two words. They could also say the word 'shit' in three syllables, 'shi-i-it', which was quite an achievement. (I was driving a Fiat at the time, so was used to hearing both of those words together in a conversation).
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    rhubarb wrote: »
    I don't know if this has been mentioned previously, but why do Americans pronounce CARAMEL as CARMEL? Other English speaking countries say CAR-A-MEL. This just doesn't make sense to me.

    We say and spell it "carmel". The opposite of what I understand in the UK re "medicine" which is med-i-cine with 3 syllables here.

    Three here as well.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    Martha wrote: »
    It was definitely carmel (and often misspelled as such) when I lived in north Texas. Also mocha was pronounced moe (to rhyme with toe)-ka, whereas in the UK it is pronounced mokka (short o).
    That's true as regards the 'o', but a lot of us, including me, pronounce the 'ch' like the 'ch' in 'loch'.

    I've no idea, by the way, what the 'right' pronunciation is, or even which language it originally comes from. That's just what I've usually heard.

    Whereas most people would understand yoe-gǝt, I think 'moe-ka' might get a puzzled stare.


    Arabic.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mocha,_Yemen

    I would imagine a guttural consonant is closer to the original than a simple K sound.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    When I was in Canada, people said carmel for caramel.

    Here in the UK, I find some say medicine with three syllables, some with two, and I'm sure, as with plenty of words, people vary their pronunciation according to context. Julie Andrews certainly sang it with three. But a lot of words get shortened here in regular conversation.

    I was once part of an online discussion where Americans were laughing at an ad where Jaguar was pronounced with three syllables instead of two, saying it sounded ridiculous and pretentious and no one pronounces it that way. And Brits were saying 'Well, actually...' and wondering how else it would be pronounced! I had certainly never heard jag-wah before, and thought that sounded daft!

    Now I think of it, 'actually' is another word whose syllable number can vary. Ack-chullee. Act-yoo-ully. People often use the second one when being a bit flippant and tongue-in-cheek in their contradiction. Humour and tone can affect how people pronounce things.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I say mocha with a long oh, but I first encountered coffee shop culture in Canada, so that was where I first heard it. I've never heard a Brit say mokka though. But I don't think I've ever been with someone in the UK who's ordered one. People I know tend to order latte, cappuccino, tea or hot chocolate. The OED has both moh-ka and mokka as British pronunciations, and only moh-ka as the US pronunciation.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Appalachia is said to have a language of its own. Take this test to see if you can understand some basic words
  • MMMMMM Shipmate
    Well, I got 100%, from England. Apparently, I’m a true Appalachian.

    MMM
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    100% as well. What I didn't know, I could guess.
  • Me too - but that was accepting things like Americans using a word for underwear to describe trousers.
  • fineline wrote: »
    Now I think of it, 'actually' is another word whose syllable number can vary. Ack-chullee. Act-yoo-ully. People often use the second one when being a bit flippant and tongue-in-cheek in their contradiction. Humour and tone can affect how people pronounce things.

    Isn't this odd - as these things so often are? As a Brit, I would have said the two syllables was used for comic effect, as though the speaker were a small child, whereas three is for grown up conversations. Your mileage clearly varies (a phrase I learned on the Ship, and have only ever seen here).

  • Oh, and returning to an earlier point, for the first time I'm aware of I've found Fall used for Autumn in an English work. The Doctor Dolittle series are as English as they come,and I spotted the usage in his Garden (1927).
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited May 2020
    MMM wrote: »
    Well, I got 100%, from England. Apparently, I’m a true Appalachian.

    MMM
    Same here.

    Which may be a bit odd as I had to guess some, and some of the words actually have different meanings here. A 'buggy' doesn't mean a shopping trolley here, but a folding pushchair.

  • PigwidgeonPigwidgeon Shipmate
    Many of those were not specifically Appalachian. Some were generally Southern, and others were pretty true across the United States.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    I got
    Me oh my! Congrats y'all, you just did amazing on this quiz! From eating Po'Boys, to using your clicker to scan the channels, you are a true Southerner at heart. You know all the little quirks that make up Appalachian lingo. This probably wasn't even a challenge for you? AMAZING JOB!!
    Quite entertaining since I’m English born and raised and my closest contact with the southern USA is four hours in a transit lounge at Orlando.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Many of those were not specifically Appalachian. Some were generally Southern, and others were pretty true across the United States.
    Yes, and I was surprised to see that the announcement that I scored 100% was accompanied by a picture of Olivia de Haviland as Melanie Wilkes, neither of whom were from Appalachia.

    Speaking of which, that’s another regional marker in the US—whether one says Appa-LAY-sha/Appa-LAY-shun (or cha/chun for the final syllable) or Appa-LATCH-a/Appa-LATCH-an.

    It’s the latter here (North Carolina).

  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    edited May 2020
    fineline wrote: »
    Now I think of it, 'actually' is another word whose syllable number can vary. Ack-chullee. Act-yoo-ully. People often use the second one when being a bit flippant and tongue-in-cheek in their contradiction. Humour and tone can affect how people pronounce things.

    Isn't this odd - as these things so often are? As a Brit, I would have said the two syllables was used for comic effect, as though the speaker were a small child, whereas three is for grown up conversations. Your mileage clearly varies (a phrase I learned on the Ship, and have only ever seen here).

    Ha, no, that one is used for comic effect too. It's often the emphasis that makes the comic effect. A really exaggerated ACK-chully (or ATCH-ully), in a childish, petulant voice, or a really slow, over-pronounced act-yoo-ully (even act-yoo-hully), in a pedantic, snooty voice. I've come across both used humorously in this way, and equally I find both pronunciations, when not exaggerated and simply part of speech, are used interchangeably and quite unobtrusively.

    (But to clarify - neither is two syllables. It's three syllables versus four syllables, and I find most people, when speaking casually and quickly, will use three, and the speech sounds used are somewhere in between the two exaggerated versions. People assimilate speech sounds a lot more than they realise.)
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Actually... having done a quick search for 'actually's in political speeches, Donimic Raab does get it down to two syllables when speaking very quickly - a kind of 'atch-lee'. But the other two 'actually's in this exchange, which can all be found by doing a search and clicking on the time of the section to go straight to that section of the video, are three syllables. Not an act-yoo-ully to be heard.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    So I'm Appalachian as well - by guess work partly.
  • fineline wrote: »
    Actually... having done a quick search for 'actually's in political speeches, Donimic Raab does get it down to two syllables when speaking very quickly - a kind of 'atch-lee'. But the other two 'actually's in this exchange, which can all be found by doing a search and clicking on the time of the section to go straight to that section of the video, are three syllables. Not an act-yoo-ully to be heard.

    Yes, its one of those words that vary a lot according to speed and informality. I think /achlee/ is common. It would be interesting to find an old recording of the queen, as she may have said /ectuli/. I think that has died out. My wife does a hair-raising imitation of her, as she is very posh. She only has to say "phillip" to have me in fits.
  • smithnsmithn Shipmate Posts: 4
    edited May 2020
    {spam deleted]
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Robert Armin, Dr Dolittle's creator, Hugh Lofting, was born in England, but moved to the US in 1919 and lived there for the rest of his life. He no doubt picked up a few Americanisms.
  • Fall is Dorset dialect, as is sidewalk, going back to the sailing of the Mayflower.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    Robert Armin, Dr Dolittle's creator, Hugh Lofting, was born in England, but moved to the US in 1919 and lived there for the rest of his life. He no doubt picked up a few Americanisms.

    Well I never. Thank you for educating me.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    In truth, Canadianisms do seem confusing for Americans. How about Brits, or Aussies?
  • Gracious RebelGracious Rebel Shipmate
    edited May 2020
    Quite a few of those Canadianisms are terms used in UK such as tap, serviette, toboggan, coriander, back bacon, brown bread, chips, tights...
  • We are not so used to hearing Canadianisms but generally assume that Canadians have more expressions in common with us. Whether that is a correct assumption, I don't know. As Gracious Rebel days, from the list on the link we share many in common.

    Most of us find it hard to distinguish Canadian accents from US ones - unless it is a particularly distinctive form of US accent such as the Southern US accents or the Bronx, New Jersey etc.

    Our default position when hearing a Canadian speak would be to assume they were American, unless they strongly pronounced 'out' as 'oot' in which case that would be the giveaway.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    We are not so used to hearing Canadianisms but generally assume that Canadians have more expressions in common with us. Whether that is a correct assumption, I don't know. As Gracious Rebel days, from the list on the link we share many in common.

    Most of us find it hard to distinguish Canadian accents from US ones - unless it is a particularly distinctive form of US accent such as the Southern US accents or the Bronx, New Jersey etc.

    Our default position when hearing a Canadian speak would be to assume they were American, unless they strongly pronounced 'out' as 'oot' in which case that would be the giveaway.

    I've never noticed that alleged Canadianism. Someone did explain once that it's more obvious to many US English speakers because of the way they say "out".
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Robert Armin, Dr Dolittle's creator, Hugh Lofting, was born in England, but moved to the US in 1919 and lived there for the rest of his life. He no doubt picked up a few Americanisms.

    Well I never. Thank you for educating me.

    Ditto.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    To me, some Canadian accents have a hint of Scots.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited May 2020
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Appalachia is said to have a language of its own. Take this test to see if you can understand some basic words

    Are we sure this isn't one of those quizzes that tells you got 100% regardless of what you answer? Social media is rife with such things, and I'm pretty sure I encountered one on that exact same site.

    EDIT: In fact it is one of those quizzes. Change your answers and you still get 100%. I thought Shipmates wouldn't fall for that trick.
  • MMMMMM Shipmate
    I just changed my answers and got ‘you could have done better’.

    MMM
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    Haven't tried the test yet. But, AIUI, the Appalachian dialect is apt to contain Irish and Scottish words, 'cause Irish and Scots settled there.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    fineline wrote: »
    Actually... having done a quick search for 'actually's in political speeches, Donimic Raab does get it down to two syllables when speaking very quickly - a kind of 'atch-lee'. But the other two 'actually's in this exchange, which can all be found by doing a search and clicking on the time of the section to go straight to that section of the video, are three syllables. Not an act-yoo-ully to be heard.

    Yes, its one of those words that vary a lot according to speed and informality. I think /achlee/ is common. It would be interesting to find an old recording of the queen, as she may have said /ectuli/. I think that has died out. My wife does a hair-raising imitation of her, as she is very posh. She only has to say "phillip" to have me in fits.

    I was curious about the Queen too, but I suspect 'actually' is a word the Queen doesn't use. I did a search of transcripts of royal speeches, and the only royals to use 'actually' seem to be Harry and William!

  • fineline wrote: »
    fineline wrote: »
    Actually... having done a quick search for 'actually's in political speeches, Donimic Raab does get it down to two syllables when speaking very quickly - a kind of 'atch-lee'. But the other two 'actually's in this exchange, which can all be found by doing a search and clicking on the time of the section to go straight to that section of the video, are three syllables. Not an act-yoo-ully to be heard.

    Yes, its one of those words that vary a lot according to speed and informality. I think /achlee/ is common. It would be interesting to find an old recording of the queen, as she may have said /ectuli/. I think that has died out. My wife does a hair-raising imitation of her, as she is very posh. She only has to say "phillip" to have me in fits.

    I was curious about the Queen too, but I suspect 'actually' is a word the Queen doesn't use. I did a search of transcripts of royal speeches, and the only royals to use 'actually' seem to be Harry and William!

    Yes, it was probably considered vulgar by the old royals, like carrying money. We pay the servants to say actually.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Our default position when hearing a Canadian speak would be to assume they were American, unless they strongly pronounced 'out' as 'oot' in which case that would be the giveaway.

    I've never noticed that alleged Canadianism. Someone did explain once that it's more obvious to many US English speakers because of the way they say "out".

    I think there is a Canadian way of saying 'out', but to me (native accent quite RP southern English) it doesn't sound at all like 'oot'. You can hear it several times in the first minute or so of this video, and an explanation of it here.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Our default position when hearing a Canadian speak would be to assume they were American, unless they strongly pronounced 'out' as 'oot' in which case that would be the giveaway.

    I've never noticed that alleged Canadianism. Someone did explain once that it's more obvious to many US English speakers because of the way they say "out".

    I think there is a Canadian way of saying 'out', but to me (native accent quite RP southern English) it doesn't sound at all like 'oot'. You can hear it several times in the first minute or so of this video, and an explanation of it here.
    And you can hear a similar pronunciation of “out” and “about” from some Virginians and North Carolinians.

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    And you can hear a similar pronunciation of “out” and “about” from some Virginians and North Carolinians.

    Do other Americans hear (or stereotype) those people as saying 'oot', as apparently happens to Canadians?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    No, I’d say it’s heard more as somewhere between “out” and “oat,” though probably closer to “oat.”

  • I've noticed that Americans pronounce buoy boo-ee whereas in the UK we all know its boy as in small male child.

    Question: does the brand Lifebuoy not exist in the USA?
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    It does exist, pronounced "LIFE-boy".

    "Buoy" is French, isn't it? What's the French pronunciation, anybody?
  • Apparently its from Spanish.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I once read a phonology article about the Canadian accent - wish I still had it and could quote from it, but from what I remember, the way 'out' is pronounced is part of a wider phenomenon in Canadian accents, where diphthongs followed by voiceless consonants are pronounced in more of a 'close' way - the tongue higher in the mouth. So the same applies to the word 'night,' for instance - which was something I noticed when I was in Canada. It sounds more like neet/nate, because the tongue is higher up, making more of a close sound. There are of course also some US accents that do it, but it is a specific feature of Canadian accents.

    The 'ow' sound (how now brown cow) is an interesting one in general - in the UK too, it varies a lot and can be very revealing of where someone comes from. When I moved from near London to the West Country, and I was working in a care home, I remember a little group of elderly residents commenting in loud whispers to each other on my accent when I guided one resident to 'sit down' in her wheelchair: ''Ark at 'er!' they were saying. 'She says "dah-oon," not "deh-oon."'

    (Clumsy transcription of mine - I could do it in IPA, but thought it would be more accessible this way. It's one syllable, but it's the first part of the diphthong that accounts for variations of pronunciation. Though Eliza Doolittle omits the final part of the diphthong, so it's a monophthong, and would say 'dahn'.)
  • Apparently its from Spanish.

    It's from Spanish. It's pronounced 'boy' in UK English, but not in US English apparently. I didn't know that.

    What we should all know, of course, is that a contraction of 'it is' should have an apostrophe.
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