Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • Is it a Pond thing?

    Like you, to me a bunch is radishes or flowers.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I thought it was a pond thing. When I was in Canada, 'bunch' was used far more broadly than it's used in the UK, to refer to a group (or a lot) of anything - a bunch of friends, a bunch of books, a bunch of cookies, bunch of idiots. A variation was 'a whole bunch', which seemed to indicate quantity, that there was a lot of something. It seems to be an imfor,al usage - different from the specific usage of 'bunch of flowers.'

    It always seemed to me quite similar (though not exactly the same) to how in the UK, it's common to say, informally, 'loads of.' I might say 'I've got loads of books/pens/sweets/etc.' Or in response to 'Do you have many ___?' I might say 'I've got loads.' I observed people didn't use that expression when I was in Canada - 'load' was used only in it's more specific meaning.
  • Is it a Pond thing?
    I think it is, and I think I recall that it’s been discussed somewhere previously in this thread. Interesting that some topics have come up repeatedly, but not surprising, I suppose, in a thread that’s been going on as long as this one has.

  • I've been using bunch for years to mean a lot. Presumably, I was influenced in some way, which illustrates how languages change, covertly. In fact, my impression is that in London, it's dying out.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    'A bunch of five', in my youth, meant a fist - coming your way. 'You'll get a bunch of five if you don't shut up'. I had toexplain this to our Vicar, who proposed toset up pastoral groups of five people under that name.
  • Nice one, I forgot about that. Probably dying out? I knew it as a bunch of fives.
  • Interesting phrase, "best of the bunch", not just about flowers, etc.
  • "What can I get yourself?" or "...and for yourself" are not uncommon queries in a restaurant or coffee shop here.

    "You can't get anything for myself. Only I can get things for myself. You can, however, get things for me."
  • rhubarb wrote: »
    I struggle with the excessive use of the word bunch to describe a group of objects. I always thought bunches referred to carrots and flowers, but now I hear bunches of whales; ideas; politicians; meat; politicians; opportunities. etc etc. I have strange visions of whales grouped together and tied with a large pink ribbon. The odd use of bunch seems to be a recent happening where I live and I can't understand what has occurred.

    I can't get used to "a lot" meaning "a large number of objects." To me, it means a collection of things being auctioned off as a unit.

    Or not.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I can never read 'and the lot fell upon Mathias' without thinking Unstable Stacking in Apostolic Times.
  • .
  • SparrowSparrow Shipmate
    rhubarb wrote: »
    I struggle with the excessive use of the word bunch to describe a group of objects. I always thought bunches referred to carrots and flowers, but now I hear bunches of whales; ideas; politicians; meat; politicians; opportunities. etc etc. I have strange visions of whales grouped together and tied with a large pink ribbon. The odd use of bunch seems to be a recent happening where I live and I can't understand what has occurred.

    Yes that has always grated with me too and I can date exactly when I first heard it: during the Falklands war, President Reagan in a speech referring to the islands as "that ice cold bunch of land down there" which I thought was very odd.

  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    I always thought that the use of 'bunch' as described above was an Americanism,although I first heard it in Canada - a bunch of people would be something strange for me,but one begins to hear it now in UK.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    rhubarb wrote: »
    I struggle with the excessive use of the word bunch to describe a group of objects. I always thought bunches referred to carrots and flowers, but now I hear bunches of whales; ideas; politicians; meat; politicians; opportunities. etc etc. I have strange visions of whales grouped together and tied with a large pink ribbon. The odd use of bunch seems to be a recent happening where I live and I can't understand what has occurred.

    You do bring up a good point. Below are names for groups of animals. I find some names very odd, though:

    Apes: a shrewdness
    Baboons: a congress
    Badgers: a cete
    Bats: a colony, cloud or camp
    Bears: a sloth or sleuth
    Bees: a swarm
    Buffalo: a gang or obstinacy
    Camels: a caravan
    Cats: a clowder or glaring; Kittens: a litter or kindle; Wild cats: a destruction
    Cobras: a quiver
    Crocodiles: a bask
    Crows: a murder
    Dogs: a pack; Puppies: a litter
    Donkeys: a drove
    Eagles: a convocation
    Elephants: a parade
    Elk: a gang or a herd
    Falcons: a cast
    Ferrets: a business
    Fish: a school
    Flamingos: a stand
    Foxes: a skulk or leash
    Frogs: an army
    Geese: a gaggle
    Giraffes: a tower
    Gorillas: a band
    Hippopotami: a bloat
    Hyenas: a cackle
    Jaguars: a shadow
    Jellyfish: a smack
    Kangaroos: a troop or mob
    Lemurs: a conspiracy
    Leopards: a leap
    Lions: a pride
    Moles: a labor
    Monkeys: a barrel or troop
    Mules: a pack
    Otters: a family
    Oxen: a team or yoke
    Owls: a parliament
    Parrots: a pandemonium
    Pigs: a drift or drove (younger pigs), or a sounder or team (older pigs)
    Porcupines: a prickle
    Rabbits: a herd
    Rats: a colony
    Ravens: an unkindness
    Rhinoceroses: a crash
    Shark: a shiver
    Skunk: a stench
    Snakes: a nest
    Squirrels: a dray or scurry
    Stingrays: a fever
    Swans: a bevy or game (if in flight: a wedge)
    Tigers: an ambush or streak
    Toads: a knot
    Turkeys: a gang or rafter
    Turtles: a bale or nest
    Weasels: a colony, gang or pack
    Whales: a pod, school, or gam
    Wolves: a pack
    Zebras: a zeal

    Now there are several names for a group of politicians. Here are a few I found:

    An ambition of politicians.
    A team of politicians.
    An equivocation of politicians.
    An odium of politicians
    A lie of politicians.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Bunch is used here pretty much as Fineline describes, not just for flowers, vegetables and fruit. "A prize bunch" of any particular group of people is not complimentary.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Don't forget 'a murmuration of starlings'.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Those collective names seem more the domain of quizzes - we learnt them in primary school, but in reality, I find they are not used much in general conversation. I frequently see deer when I'm in the woods, and sometimes I pass other people who've seen them, and we have a brief conversation about them. We don't refer to them as 'a herd of deer,' though in theory we know that's the term. We say, 'I've seen some deer through there' or 'There's loads of deer up there!' or 'There's a lot of deer over that way - about a hundred of them.' (Pretty sure that man was exaggerating for effect, as I've never seen more than ten!)
  • That's because herd suggests a big group of deer or cows or whatever, as in counted in tens, and if I've just seen three or four deer, as is usually the case, I wouldn't think of them as being a herd.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Many of those collective nouns look to be more like poetical conceits than terms in actual daily use.
  • Really obscure inquiry here. What does "Nemesis" mean in the States?

    Back in the 60s there was a comic character, Nemesis Lad, who joined the Legion of Superheroes in order to betray them. One discussion page I follow regularly has comments saying, "They were stupid to accept him as his name tells you he's a villain," which makes no sense to me. (By enquiring about a term from the 60s I am showing how hip and with it I am!)
  • Off the top of my head I'd say your nemesis is your worst enemy, the person or thing that haunts you, that you spend your life trying to rid yourself of, or vice versa. Something along those lines.
  • Whereas I think of Nemesis as avenging justice. Even Miss Marple was once described as such.
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    Really obscure inquiry here. What does "Nemesis" mean in the States?

    Nemesis was certainly the goddess of divine retribution - the downfall of those who fall victim to hubris. But that's a little specialized for everyday use.

    In general use, I agree with @mousethief - it is used to mean something more like arch-enemy, definitely with the sense that the enmity is personal, long-standing, and relentless.

    It has this sense in the Star Trek film of that name.
  • Isn't Moriarty described as the nemesis of Sherlock Holmes, and vice versa, in those books? Or did that come later?
  • Really obscure inquiry here. What does "Nemesis" mean in the States?

    Nemesis was certainly the goddess of divine retribution - the downfall of those who fall victim to hubris. But that's a little specialized for everyday use.
    That's exactly what I was taught in school and what I have always understood it to mean. The teacher was always right back then.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    edited June 2020
    That's because herd suggests a big group of deer or cows or whatever, as in counted in tens, and if I've just seen three or four deer, as is usually the case, I wouldn't think of them as being a herd.

    Except that, as I pointed out, others seem to think there are many more. Which it can look like when they're all running together. And still no one says 'herd.' Same for other groups of animals, in my experience.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    AIR the Roman amphitheatre in Pula has a shrine to Nemesis - not up top, but down by the gladiators' changing room.
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    I've always said "a herd of deer", or else "a deer herd". Not sure what else you would call it...
  • NicoleMR wrote: »
    I've always said "a herd of deer", or else "a deer herd". Not sure what else you would call it...

    If you see a farmer moving a large number of cows from one field to a different field, you might say "oh look - a herd of cows". If you see three cows standing under a tree, you are unlikely to call them "a herd of cows".
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    I would. Again, what else would you say? Aside from specifically "three cows", which seems unnecessarily specific.
  • NicoleMR wrote: »
    I would. Again, what else would you say? Aside from specifically "three cows", which seems unnecessarily specific.

    "Some cows."
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    The arena at Cirencester had a shrine to Nemesis.
  • NicoleMR wrote: »
    I would.

    Fair enough. I'm surprised. I'd agree with mousethief - that's "some cows", which is different from "a herd of cows". All of the cows in the field might form a herd; the three under the tree are just some cows.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    On those collective terms, I agree that a lot of them are poetic fantasies, the preserve of pub quizzes. The ones I can think of that I'd say are in genuine use, including some not on the list, are,

    charm - goldfinches (doubtful),
    covey - game birds,
    farrow - litter of piglets,
    flock - sheep, birds,
    flight - game birds in the air together,
    gaggle - geese, but only on the ground and more often used metaphorically of humans,
    herd - cattle, deer and mammals generally, also swans on the ground but not in the air,
    litter - puppies, kittens, piglets, baby mice, etc
    murmuration - starlings but it's a specific behaviour when they gather to roost,
    pack - hounds, wolves, other canids, also lies,
    pod - cetaceans generally,
    pride - lions,
    raft - waterbirds in a flock on the water,
    school - porpoises, dolphins,
    shoal - fish,
    skein - geese in flight,
    swarm - bees,
    team - oxen, when more than two, usually eight,
    train - mules,
    troop - monkeys,
    yoke - oxen, but only as a pair.

    A drey (sic) isn't in our usage a collection of squirrels so much as the nest a squirrel makes in a tree. And a caravan isn't so much a collection of camels as the entire equipage of the travelling merchant in the desert, which probably includes camels.

    I've never heard of a cete of badgers, but the holes they dig and live in are called setts.


    On Nemesis, as a BrEnglish speaker, I would definitely agree with @Robert Armin. Using it to mean a villain generally would strike me as misleading, a metaphor which has taken leave of its foundation.

  • SparrowSparrow Shipmate
    My parents used to have an old reference book, some sort of English usage and grammar primer, that had lists of all those collective nouns. But I've never heard most of them used in real life.
  • MarthaMartha Shipmate
    My boys learned some of them in school - I was never quite sure if it was just for fun, or whether their teachers actually expected the kids to need to know them.
  • I'd describe a group of badgers as a sett of badgers, but you normally only see a group near their sett.

    One that's not on the list is a rookery for a group of rooks' nests, not that I've seen one for a while, the local one has disappeared, and possibly a parliament if I saw a group together on the ground. They do sound like parliament baying together.

    A murder of crows I'd use, but I've never seen one - crows are usually solitary.

    I would say herd - but having grown up in dairy country, it wasn't uncommon to arrive late for something saying, sorry got stuck behind Farmer X's herd as they were taken in for milking, without specifying cows.

    Yes, definitely to charm of goldfinches - they are if you see them together feeding on teasels link to a photo composite I took 18 months ago and it's a song on the Lost Words project, Spell Songs - YouTube link to Charm on Goldfinch. Jackie Morris, who is seen painting in that video, uses clowder about her cats, regularly.

    The other one I love because it's so descriptive is an exaltation or exultation of larks and the last few weeks, hearing larks over fields, that's so true.
  • Isn't Moriarty described as the nemesis of Sherlock Holmes, and vice versa, in those books? Or did that come later?

    I'd be surprised, as Moriarty only appears in one story, where he gets killed. Contrary to later Holmes myth making, they are definitely not adversaries always poised in a perpetual way.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    NicoleMR wrote: »
    I would. Again, what else would you say? Aside from specifically "three cows", which seems unnecessarily specific.

    "Those cows over there", or "those cows in the bottom paddock". Perhaps "the 3 cows" if they're in a paddock with some steers or calves.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    One that's not on the list is a rookery for a group of rooks' nests, not that I've seen one for a while, the local one has disappeared, and possibly a parliament if I saw a group together on the ground. They do sound like parliament baying together.

    I thought it was a parliament of owls - very flattering to most human members of one.
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    I think that term gets used of several of the 'cleverer' types of birds.

    I did once end up naming several members of a flock of sheep the Great Sheepscape in the context of their making me late for work 3 days running by repeatedly escaping onto a narrow country lane through a hole in the wire fence. Fortunately by day 4 the farmer had fixed it, although I'd taken the precaution of putting a large sheet of cardboard in the car to label the hole. (I was not risking my Micra on trying to find a way through a good half dozen adult sheep!)
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I have to admit Bostonians have a dialect/language all their own.

    Some of their phrases:

    U-turn---Bang a Uey
    Dinner---Suppah
    Basement---Cellah
    TV Remote---Clickah
    Liquor Store---Packie
    Traffic Circle---Rotary
    Turn Signal---Blinkie
    Sprinkles--Jimmies
    Water Fountain---Bubblah
    No Way---No Suh
    Dunken [Donuts]---Dunkies
    State Trooper--Staties
    Very Awesome---Wicked Awesome
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I agree that rookery is definitely a word that is in current use, but it's the colony of nests, not the group of rooks themselves. Theoretically, that's a parliament, but I've never heard anyone use that in ordinary speech.

    By analogy, 'rookery' is also used to describe some other colonies of birds, particularly sea birds. By further analogy it has been used to describe congested slums. The words gannetry is also used to describe a colony of gannets' nests, and of course heronry.

    Rooks and jackdaws flock. Crows and ravens don't normally, though the juveniles do and don't breed until they are 2-3 years old. They can collect in quite large numbers. Ravens particularly one often sees in pairs all year or at this time of the year in small family parties.

    Rooks aren't doing very well at the moment. A lot of rookeries are declining or being abandoned.

  • Can I lower the literary tone a notch or two, to say that when I hear 'Nemesis', the first thing that comes into my mind is the (excellent) ride at Alton Towers. (Suspended roller coaster, my favourite type.)
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    'The Parliament of Foules (Fowls)' is a poem by Geoffrey Chaucer. I had to study it at school.

    As I said earlier, I think some of these collective nouns are made up, not unlike some of the Cockney rhyming slang one sometimes hears used in banter. 'Brahms and Liszt' springs to mind.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    At the end of a night on the tiles? Never heard it used here.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    NicoleMR wrote: »
    I've always said "a herd of deer", or else "a deer herd". Not sure what else you would call it...

    Well, my post did specify several other things people where I live called it, when I encountered them.
  • Apparently a group of unicorns is called a blessing. Which is a jolly useful thing to know!
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Martha wrote: »
    My boys learned some of them in school - I was never quite sure if it was just for fun, or whether their teachers actually expected the kids to need to know them.

    Yes, that was my point - we learnt them in primary school. Actually we were given a random test to see if we knew them, having never actually being taught them, and then we were afterwards told which we got wrong and right. It was quite random - just one occasion when we learnt them like this. I don't generally come across people using them, or needing to use them, in adulthood, except in quizzes. Thinking about times I've been on retreat in Wales, for instance, where there are fields full of sheep, and fields full of cows. In casual conversation, in my observation, people don't tend to use even a common word like 'herd.' Normally the focus is simply on the fact that the animals are present in the field, so 'There are often (a lot of) cows in that field' is what people say. Not that people never say herd, but it doesn't seem to be a consistent norm, and it isn't generally considered wrong not to use it.

  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Kangaroos: a troop or mob

    Most definitely mob.

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