Church Covid-19 workarounds

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  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    We were planning incense I believe. The communion rubrics sound the same as what was in the order of service sent round by email. (We were asked to print it ourselves or bring a device to read it on, so they could print only the bare minimum of copies. I haven't had the verdict from Mr Dragon about this morning yet. I plan to go mid-week.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    We could use incense (perhaps only for censing the altar, and gifts, at the Offertory), and FatherInCharge is perfectly capable of managing it himself. I've seen this done at other 'online' services.

    OTOH, today's Mass was very much a trial run (and there was an additional bit, in the blessing and lighting of the 2020 Paschal Candle, which FInC did immediately after the Confession), so I didn't want to give the poor man too much to think about!

    (BTW, I guess most fairly Igh-Church or Anglo-Carflick Places in the C of E will be doing much the same, in each Diocese. Local conditions apply, of course. AFAIK, we were the first in our immediate neighbourhood to celebrate the Eucharist today).
  • No masks (except on just one person) at Our Place - they aren't mandatory, but FatherInCharge has emphasised that peeps must do as they see fit in this respect.

    I may as well sigh at this point and point out how absurd this idea is. Face coverings are largely ineffective at preventing you from getting infected, but help prevent you from infecting someone else. Saying "you can wear a covering or not as you see fit" is equivalent to saying "you can urinate in the toilets if you see fit, but if you'd rather piss all over the people in the next pew, that's your choice.

    Saying "because we've got these distancing measures, we don't think masks are necessary in our church" is one thing, but allowing the idea that covering your face is a personal preference to creep in to people's minds is dangerous.
  • OK @Leorning Cniht - are you saying that face-masks should be mandatory in Church?

    If so, that's not at all the advice/guidance/instructions we're receiving from Head Office - and THAT is what we're following.

    I take your point, but ISTM that this is yet another of the 'Matters Arising' from this bl**dy Plague upon which opinions can (and do) differ.

    You may have said this already, in which case please excuse me, but does your denomination/church insist upon them?
  • You may have said this already, in which case please excuse me, but does your denomination/church insist upon them?

    Yes, we're requiring masks for everyone when we open up the building (probably next month - we've got some details still to work out.) I think the diocese is insisting on masks, but it's something we would have done anyway without the directive from above. We'll have masks available in case anyone comes without.

    If you don't want to wear a mask, you can come to one of our zoom services.

    My point is that making masks a personal preference makes no sense, because that's not how they work. You're right - people can disagree about how important mask-wearing is at reducing the spread of infection, but the thing that affects the chance of you getting infected is whether the people around you are masked - not whether you are. That makes mask-wearing a community standard, rather than a personal choice.
  • Thx.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    I take your point, but ISTM that this is yet another of the 'Matters Arising' from this bl**dy Plague upon which opinions can (and do) differ.

    You may have said this already, in which case please excuse me, but does your denomination/church insist upon them?

    If masks aren't mandatory (which they are here by government order) it suddenly becomes easier to understand the no singing rule.

    Earlier on, @ExclamationMark was bothered about how to do registration equitably. I learn today that one church locally has invited people to sign up for one of three consecutive Sundays - and not the other two. Seems not a bad way of sharing out the places. (We are far too anarchic for anything like registration to work, and have yet to reach our attendance threshold anyway...).
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    We are down to a few common sense restrictions, mainly because local infection rates are on the low side, mainly because it is a rural area and folks do not live in one another's pockets anyway. The rules of the game at the moment are:

    1. Please sit six feet away from anyone who does not live in the same house as you.
    2. No Intinction - and I mean NO INTINCTION - this is a concept very difficult for the Virginian Episcopalians in my mixed multitude to grasp.
    3. When receiving communion spread yourselves out along the rail leaving plenty of space between household groups.
    4. If you showing symptoms which might be Covid-19 stay at home
    5. If you are in a high risk group, please stay at home

    I have a few folks self-isolating, but we have been back to semi-normal since mid-May. Midweek activities are still very limited, and coffee time is still no go.
  • My sister went to her large, small-town East Anglian church today. Usually they have several services but today only one. She says, "Strict distancing, you could only sit where there was a service sheet and had to use hand sanitizer on the way in. It was a short service devoted to the NHS. There is a tradition of asking who has a birthday and then singing Happy Birthday, the Vicar launched into it but not the congregation, he had forgotten about no singing. We had organ music and some taped suitable music. At the end we were told when to get up by stewards, and encouraged to chat outside at a suitable distance. All possible seats were taken and there were some very old and frail people which surprised me. We had all been sent the risk assessments to peruse during the week".


  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Although it wasn't normal it was GOOD to be back.
  • ChoristerChorister Shipmate
    I've not been back inside a church yet. The 'sitting quietly' thing didn't really appeal, but I'd be very tempted if it was guaranteed that there would be organ music. Until then, I'll stay with online and have found out which ones have music.
  • Pseudo OrganistPseudo Organist Shipmate Posts: 34
    What a difference a couple of months can make!

    Exactly 2 months ago when I last posted in the thread I was feeling really depressed.
    It was looking at the time that when churches were eventually allowed to reopen it would be strictly without anyone aged over 70 or any vulnerable people. As nearly all of our small congregation and our clergy are in those categories, I began to think that when we opened up I would be there on my own! After our congregation have remained faithful for 9 years without a priest I greatly feared that the Coronavirus would finally close us down.

    We opened for our first service this morning and there were 12 of us there for our Parish Mass. We very rarely get more than 15 and so it was just about our usual sized small congregation. They all turned up complete with facemasks, sticks and zimmer frames.
    Our two youngest retired priests, who are only in their late 70's, have agreed quite enthusiastically to cover our Sunday Mass between them, for the next few months.

    We decided not to open our church for private prayer, as the cleaning and sanitising guidance and supervision of the building was too complex for our elderly people. We are not going to have Mass midweek for at least the rest of July and August. This means that we can leave at least 72 hours between entering and using the building which cuts down on lots of sanitising and hygiene measures. Two people are going to set everything out and prepare for Mass on Wednesday and then the church can remain locked until Sunday and after Mass we can just leave everything untouched in a locked church until the setting up again following Wednesday. Sad that the church has to remain locked for much of the week but necessary in our circumstances.

    Everything went very smoothly for our first Mass this morning. With only 12 people we were able to socially distance but still remain fairly near the front of the church. Father said Mass without any servers but he did have the thurible on a stand next to the altar and so we were able to have incense as usual. One member of the congregation did the readings from the pulpit, I did the intercessions from the lectern and Father did everything else including reading the gospel and preaching standing behind the altar. We followed all of the guidance regarding distribution of communion, but as we have a nave altar in a large space, we were all able to stand around the altar in a large socially distanced circle to receive communion in one kind only.

    There was strictly no singing but we did have some hymns and other music played through the sound system. I decided not to play the organ as I had to concentrate on pressing the right things on my iPad to play the music at the correct times. We had the following music during our Mass.
    Introit Hymn - On our day of thanksgiving
    Psalm - O God, you search me and you know me
    Gospel Acclamation - Mass of Christ the Saviour by Dan Schutte
    Offertory Hymn - Be still, for the presence of the Lord
    Communion Hymn - And now, O Father, mindful of the love

    Some of our people were not really looking forward to a Sunday Mass with no singing but it turned out to be a really lovely and meaningful service. Some of our people were actually quite deeply moved by its simple beauty and informal reverence. I think its something that we can actually quite happily live with for many months if necessary.

    So there we are. A wonderful new beginning, which hopefully we can build upon and perhaps even may entice a few younger people from our community into the building.
  • Excellent news @Pseudo Organist! Much better indeed than you had anticipated, IIRC. Onwards and upwards, as the saying is...

    Sounds very much like our Mass yesterday (and the previous Sunday), though we haven't yet started using incense again (but FatherInCharge has it in mind to do so soon).

    We haven't had to use recordings yet, being blessed with an organist AND a pianist (not necessarily both every week) who play suitable music as prelude/offertory/communion/postlude - not hymn-tunes, as FInC thinks we may be inspired to spongetaneously start singing the hymns, which would be a Sin, and is Forbidden.

    Our Cathedral started public worship yesterday (Eucharists at 930am and repeated at 1130am, our Diocesan Bishop preaching at both), and, looking at the Facebook video of the 1130am service, they are doing much the same thing as Our (smaller) Places.

    I made a very rough head count of the congregation (which had had to book) at the 1130am slot - around 50, so somewhat less than the 250-300 they'd normally get for the 1030am Sung Eucharist in happier times! There may have been more at the earlier service, but, of course, they had had to space the chairs out quite widely to maintain physical distancing.
  • We did enquire as to whether we could have solo singing at a distance from the congregation. It was agreed that this presented minimal risk but we were also informed that it would contravene The Guidelines and lead to our permission to open being revoked by Presbytery.
  • Here in Wales churches have been allowed to open for worship from today ... but so far the Government hasn't published its guidelines on what is required!
  • Has your denomination provided you with at least some guidance?

    I guess it would be wisest to wait until the government does...very frustrating, though, I don't doubt.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Why wait for the government? I think we all know the drill by now - keep people spaced out, avoid activities which lead to the widespread distribution of infected material, clean thoroughly afterwards, keep washing your hands, etc., so it should not be too difficult to evolve an appropriate protocol.
  • Yes, but what we presently do in England or elsewhere may not be the same as what may be required in Wales - for instance, the Welsh government may say that face-masks/coverings are mandatory in church...

    After nearly 4 months, I know, people will want to be in church again, but it may still be prudent to wait another few days.
  • Here in Wales churches have been allowed to open for worship from today ... but so far the Government hasn't published its guidelines on what is required!

    It looks as though the Welsh Government does not think that it has responsibility for such guidelines. Under the guidelines for "Historic Churches" one finds: "For places of worship that are still in active use, the major faith groups in Wales are in the process of drawing up their own guidelines."
  • Ah - if that's the case, then I suppose it is up to each denomination to provide guidance. As @PDR says, common-sense comes into play, in line with any general restrictions/guidelines there may already be.
  • We are definitely expecting guidance from the Welsh Government who I know have been working with the CinW to draw it up. I've been looking all day but it hasn't happened yet!
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    xkcd weighs in, placing "singing in church" at the high end of "Covid-19 risk" - and the bottom end of "non-Covid-19" risk. I guess that helps explain why people have difficulty integrating the difficulties: the gap between normal risk and the new risk is so huge and counter-intuitive.
  • We have had an extremely constructive meeting re. re-opening for worship, although it won't happen for a couple of weeks.
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    I was delighted to be able to be present physically at Mass today, first time since 19th March. There were about 30 people present in a medium sized church. For the moment in Scotland there is an upper limit of 50 no matter how big the building is.
    Usually at the three Sunday Masses there are about 500 people all together. The number of Masses is now increased to five with a total possible attendance of 250.
    Social distancing etc was scrupulously involved but I was impressed to see that on each row where a seat was occupied someone came and put a little white sticker. This is to indicate that that particular row of seats has to be sanitized after the Mass.
  • @Forthview - sounds good, and yes, how lovely it is to be back, even with all the restrictions . Presumably there was, however, no music, or singing? Given the reluctance of quite a few people to come back to church just yet, your 5 Masses may be sufficient. Do you have some sort of advance booking system?

    At Our Place, we have pieces of paper with a black X inscribed thereon, to mark where someone has been sitting, and which pew therefore needs sanitising. I'd like to have had The Black Spot (as in Treasure Island ), but Father said no, he thought not...
    :disappointed:

    However, we only have one service a week in the nave (the mid-week service is in a completely separate side chapel), so the advice we've been given is that the pews don't require sanitising, as the virus (if present to start with) will have gone by the following Sunday...clearly, this doesn't apply if you have another service (or other services) on the same day.
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    There will be some sort of booking system put in place after the first weekend, which will be just first come, first served up to 50. This will be the first weekend in Scotland where there can be public services.
  • Understood - early days yet, no?
    :wink:
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    We'll be continuing with midweek private prayer. But not reopening for services as yet. Apart from the pandemic guidelines, part of our building is in the middle of a hugely disruptive repair job which inflicts chaos all by itself. However, before the end of summer I'm hoping we'll be able to resume Sunday morning Eucharist. I keep telling folks it'll depend on having enough cleaners and stewards to keep things going, according to the guideline requirements; and we're very low on people who are available and able to do those things. So that's another reason not to rush it.

    It really helps that the Bishops' Advisory Group make it clear that just because Nicola says we can have services doesn't mean all of a sudden everyone should be having services! Apart from anything else, we have a proforma application plan to fill in, demonstrating how we've risk assessed everything, and covered every aspect raised in the guidelines; to be submitted to our bishop who will then hopefully give his permission!
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    We've been open for Mass for three weeks now. All socially distanced, no singing etc. Our 11am Sunday Mass normally has 150. Its down to 50 (out of the permitted Covid-secure 80.) Total attendance is down to a third, about 130-150 across three masses.
    All very subdued, no young folk, no families so it isn't the usual noisy/hand-clappy family Mass.
    PP asked me to play some quiet mood music on the piano at the offertory and communion. I was delighted to oblige and the response from the congregation was very warm.
    I've avoided broadcast/streamed Masses. Too much like voyeurism. So its brilliant to be back.
  • No young kids at Our Place, either, though we have a couple of teenagers.

    We do, however, miss the young families with toddlers etc., but they are 'playing safe' - FatherInCharge is in touch with them, so we know they're OK.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Our church toilet is locked. Rules out toddlers .... and being "of an age" I restricted myself to a single cup of coffee at breakfast.
  • Yes, our Hall (albeit linked to, and accessible from, the Church) is strictly Out Of Bounds, as we are maintaining it as a safe 'bubble' for the pre-school Nursery which uses it Mondays to Fridays. They, therefore, are entirely responsible for its cleanliness etc.

    We have a single WC, just off our Vestry, but we regard this as for emergency use only! If need arose, Parents and Toddlers could use it - it is quite spacious.

    BTW, I, too, restrict my liquid intake until AFTER Mass...
    :wink:
  • A genuine question: is anyone's church doing Junior Church/Sunday School? If so, how? There's a belief here in Wales that it's not going to be allowed, which would be a big blow to us as we're very much family-oriented. There doesn't seem to be anything about it in the UK Guidance on worship, either.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Not in Wales, but we have basically taken our cue from what the schools round here are doing, in consultation with our Sunday School team. Although so far this has resulted in pretty much nothing happening, because of the holiday period.
  • We haven't had a separate Sunday School/Junior Church for some time now - the children we usually have are happy to stay in church for the whole service (they have their own 'safe space' with soft toys etc., and room for parents, buggies, crayons, and so on...), or else they're younger teenagers, who seem to prefer to simply sit with their families in the pews. Some of the teenagers occasionally act as servers or readers.

    We used to have a monthly 'Family Church' sort of thing on a Saturday - a bit like Messy Church, but with a slightly older age range (7-12), but that is suspended for the duration.

    There is AIUI official C of E guidance for churches with a rather more developed children's/youth work or ministry. Here is the link to the C of E website, which may (or may not) be of help:
    https://churchofengland.org/more/media-centre/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-churches#na

    You need to scroll down quite a way to find the bits about children's/youth work.

    ISTM that it's not so much 'not allowed' as so hedged about with restrictions, guidelines, etc., as to possibly not be worthwhile, certainly in the case of Our Place, even though under-16s sometimes make up a good 25% of our Sunday Mass congregation!

    I'm not entirely sure how our three closely-neighbouring parishes are coping. One of them has a number of young families, another does not, and the third is still not open apart from online - though they are live-streaming a separate children's activity/service on Sundays (which IMHO is quite imaginative of them).
  • A genuine question: is anyone's church doing Junior Church/Sunday School? If so, how?

    Our normal practice is to run Sunday School for an hour between our Sunday morning services. We're not doing that in Corona season - we're not even opening up access to the classroom part of the building.

    The youth groups (middle & high school kids) have been meeting on zoom, and will continue to do that. It's much harder to try to do little-kid Sunday School on zoom - I'm not sure whether we're going to try and do that, or just not run Sunday School this year.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    I went to a very nice Catholic confirmation for a friend of mine yesterday. Indoor church services are suspended in California, but I guess the local diocese has worked out a plan with the government for outdoor services. The church had limited guest lists for the candidates. Recorded music, no singing. The host was delivered through a opening of a Plexiglas shield onto the open hand of the person receiving. We were firmly warned that if the priest came into contact with anyone's hand everything would come to a halt while he re-sanitized, so just put your hand out flat on your side of the opening and let Father drop the host into your hand on your side of the barrier. Not being Catholic all I had to was cross my hands over my chest and receive a word of encouragement.

    The church set up the space in the outdoor school lunch area with an altar, with chairs spaced but household groups are allowed to scoot them closer together. All this under an awning. Masses will be held there about four times on Sundays, twice on Saturdays, and one each weekday morning, confessions on Saturdays in a patio area by the church proper.
  • There is AIUI official C of E guidance for churches with a rather more developed children's/youth work or ministry. Here is the link to the C of E website, which may (or may not) be of help:
    https://churchofengland.org/more/media-centre/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-churches#na

    You need to scroll down quite a way to find the bits about children's/youth work.

    ISTM that it's not so much 'not allowed' as so hedged about with restrictions, guidelines, etc., as to possibly not be worthwhile.
    Not so much hedged about with restrictions (we can cope with that) but, at times, inherently contradictory!

  • Ah well - it is the C of E, after all...
    :grimace:
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    Not in this case - the contradictions are with the Government's "advice".
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    Not in this case - the contradictions are with the Government's "advice".
    The Tory Party at Prayer is probably equally contradictory.

  • O well - I confess to not having completely absorbed the 'instructions', but I'm not at all surprised to learn that they aren't quite in line with the 'advice' of the *government*...
    :disappointed:
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    A genuine question: is anyone's church doing Junior Church/Sunday School? If so, how? There's a belief here in Wales that it's not going to be allowed, which would be a big blow to us as we're very much family-oriented. There doesn't seem to be anything about it in the UK Guidance on worship, either.

    No. Normally we have childrens church in the hall at the same time as the liturgy of the word, and the wee'uns would return before the offertory for a show and tell session.
    None of that now.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    FatherInCharge has suggested to any of our young families who might turn up at Sunday Mass that they can bring their own soft toys, paper, colouring pens etc. if they wish, but that they MUST take them home with them afterwards.

    The space reserved for them is still available, and, if any do come, it will be thoroughly cleaned (pews, chairs, table) after Mass.

    Best we can do for the moment, I think, but, as I've said, we really don't expect to see any of the Kidz for the foreseeable future...
    :disappointed:

    One or two of the parents/grandparents might still attend, though.

    I wonder if @Baptist Trainfan has put his finger on a sore that many feel, or will feel in the future? Children's/youth work in church is hard enough at the best of times, but the sheer disruption and upheaval in family life in general may lead to 'church' becoming an even lower priority for some.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    FatherInCharge has suggested to any of our young families who might turn up at Sunday Mass that they can bring their own soft toys, paper, colouring pens etc. if they wish, but that they MUST take them home with them afterwards.

    The space reserved for them is still available, and, if any do come, it will be thoroughly cleaned (pews, chairs, table) after Mass.

    Best we can do for the moment, I think, but, as I've said, we really don't expect to see any of the Kidz for the foreseeable future...
    :disappointed:

    One or two of the parents/grandparents might still attend, though.

    I wonder if @Baptist Trainfan has put his finger on a sore that many feel, or will feel in the future? Children's/youth work in church is hard enough at the best of times, but the sheer disruption and upheaval in family life in general may lead to 'church' becoming an even lower priority for some.

    Our PP is vicar general of the diocese. They are very concerned about how thingd will shape up in the long run. People lose the habit of church and find other things to do an a Sunday morning. Many of our parishes are on a financial knife edge and the diocese doesnt have the resources to top up falling coffers.
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    The fact that about a third of our Sunday school is related to Fr Duckling means hopefully we'll get something back when we can, but obviously they'll move on in a couple of years. At the moment we can't have a Sunday school as the room we use is very small and the hall isn't being used on a Sunday. (Most of the children are no more than 6 or 7 anyway, which doesn't help.)
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    Our Vicar had changed the main 10 am Sunday service beyond all recognition to encourage families to feel welcome. Just before lockdown he had closed down the messy church type thingy in order to encourage those families to integrate with the 10 am Family Service. Since it seems unlikely that families will be coming back very soon it would, in my opinion, be lovely to revert to a more traditional Common Worship Eucharist, but I don’t suppose we will. What purpose a family service will serve if there are no children defeats me.
    OTOH the shared family worker has maintained excellent contact online providing appropriate activities for children.
  • HeavenlyannieHeavenlyannie Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    Our church is still online and the kids have been in with us but the church has now set up their own Zoom meeting - our Relational Mission church won’t be opening til autumn at least. I think it’s the children that makes our church getting back so difficult; there a huge number of them and they are difficult to control! The youth have had their own Zoom meeting all along.
  • What's happening with Messy Church, I wonder?

    I know my local C of E church has had some success in building up a well-supported monthly event, but I guess similar issues to those facing schools (distancing, hygiene etc. etc.) would apply.

    As @Puzzler says, having a 'Family Service' when there are NO families present is a bit odd, so yes, no harm in reverting to something else (not that I regard having the Eucharist as a retrograde step IYSWIM!).
  • Although we aren't a big church, families are very important to us. The two ladies who mostly lead the work with children and young people have been very diligent with online Sunday School, virtual Youth Club and the like. However they are feeling the strain and also sensing that they are slowly losing the personal contact. We aren't sure what to do as the (Welsh) Government's guidance for churches only seems to envisage children worshipping with their families and says nothing about "Junior Church"; the advice from the local Baptist Association is that we can't run it although we are absolutely sure we can do so in a safe way. I've therefore written several letters today to what I hope are the relevant powers-that-be, asking for some clarity. It's probably way down their list of priorities so I'm not very sanguine about getting a response. We are finding the situation (as, I'm sure, are other churches) very frustrating.
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