Yes. "Those organising a funeral should adhere to the following: ... it is advised that the number of attendees should be restricted to 30 persons for public health reasons".
Yes. "Those organising a funeral should adhere to the following: ... it is advised that the number of attendees should be restricted to 30 persons for public health reasons".
But no restrictions for Sundays, the size of the building being the indicator of the number allowed.
In Wales, the number allowed at funerals is determined by the venue. And - knowing there is a tradition of whole villages or streets turning out - at the moment everyone must be specifically invited.
In Scotland the number allowed to attend a service in church is 50,irrespective of the size of the building. It is 20 for funerals in the same buildings. The Scottish government says this is because at a funeral there will be a greater wish for people to come closer to one another than they might at an ordinary church service.
In Scotland the number allowed to attend a service in church is 50,irrespective of the size of the building. It is 20 for funerals in the same buildings. The Scottish government says this is because at a funeral there will be a greater wish for people to come closer to one another than they might at an ordinary church service.
Actually it isn't 50 regardless of the size of the building. The 2 metre restrictions still apply but 50 is the maximum. I can get 26 in one of my buildings (if the animals come in two by two - i.e. in households who can sit together so need less individual space - and of course they don't), I can get 30 in one and 40 in the one that we are actually opening for prayer services next week. But no matter how large the building, 50 is the maximum. I know of no church buildings in the neck of the wood, of any denomination, which could rise to that height.
Based on my unnerving funeral experience last Saturday, I suggest reassuring people with clear guidelines at the outset, and perhaps even adding a line in the funeral notice: "health measures will be applied" or some such.
Especially because funerals often bring together diverse people rather than those used to attending a venue together.
I have taken a number of funerals recently, all at public crematoria and, although I've been punctilious myself in not shaking hands with people or not getting too close, decorum does tend to break down a bit afterwards. I suppose it's inevitable - and I know that some of these households will have got together before the service anyway, even though they may not be supposed to.
Cathscats is right in saying that 50 is the maximum, irrespective of the size of a building and that social distancing rules apply as well which can bring down the maximum size allowed in any church. I was just talking to the priest in charge of a church where only 16 would be allowed to any one service, so they are going to use another church for their Sunday services.
We had 7 at our mid-week Mass this morning - our Lady Chapel safely accommodates 5, so two of us sat back somewhat in the nearby north aisle...which will not be used again until next week!
3 of those attending were people returning after 4 months' absence, so it was indeed good to see them (at an appropriate distance, of course...).
I was a bit surprised by the number I had last Sunday Evening, which was 19. This would be pretty decent for an evening Eucharist in our place normally, but it is the largest congregation we have had since the beginning of Covidiocy. "Covidiocy," by the way, is my nickname for the ever changing and somewhat contradictory advice we receive about slowing the spread of The Virus. A couple of the folks there were people I have not seen in three months, and there were a couple a visitors who "got it" in terms of social distancing. I have tried to be as 'unheavy' as possible about the social distancing things, trusting to basic literacy to get the message across. This is many because we have some folks who easily stressed, and, without doing anything daft, I felt we needed to create as unchallenging environment for them as we can under the circumstances.
Because of the lay out of the church, every other pew with folks sitting at either end of the pew seems to work for us and give us an all up capacity of somewhere between 30 and 50 depending on the mix of singles, couples, and families. This is not stressing us as we are a small congregation, but the Catholic Church a short block up the street from us has had to introduce quite elaborate measures to ensure that they keep it socially distanced.
Hmm. Not unexpected, but unenforceable, despite what Johnson might say.
I guess we'll wait and see what our Bishop and Archdeacon advise...though masks are strongly recommended already.
Last Sunday, many of our folk did indeed wear a face-covering, anyway, but readers/preachers need to remove theirs in order to be heard! Some sort of sensible balance has to be found here, I think.
In Virginia we are in a funny position on masks. They are required indoors, but they can be removed as part of a religious ritual, and this is being monitored/enforced by public health. It has all the hallmarks of someone actually joining some dots together in Richmond and deciding that (a) 99.99% of church will not do anything daft, and (b) the 0.01% that do can be dealt with by the police under social distancing rules.
Boris Johnson has just announced face coverings are to be made mandatory for the public in places of worship.
Thats been the rule in RC (Eng and Wales) places since reopening, except for readers and celebrants and people receiving communion at the moment of communion. Its no big deal. PP is a massive Liverpool football fan and he sports a club mask - but not while officiating, though the red would work at Pentecost and Good Friday.
In RC churches in Scotland only the celebrant and/or deacon will do readings etc. Masks should be worn by those attending, but not by celebrant doing readings or prayers. Communion given at normal time, in England I think that it is general that Communion is administered at the end of Mass and people then leave the church.
As we only have the one priest, we've arranged a rota, so that one other person is responsible at each Sunday Mass for the OT reading, Psalm, NT reading, and the Prayers.
Presumably in order to keep the service and hence contact time short, we have only the Gospel reading. Read by the deacon, robed or unrobed according to circumstances. (last week they were child minding and so sat in the congregation). Masks worn by all except the president (for the duration of the liturgy except when administering communion). But the church is now in a local Covid-spike area: too local apparently for national government to be involved, but local government has issued some tightening of restrictions. Maybe it will mean back to virtual church for a while.
For those concerned about the method of data gathering (pieces of paper, shared writing implements, &c.) for tracing purposes, one possibility might be to adopt the method used in a pub I visited with a parishioner two days ago, (back in the days when we were allowed to do such things!).
They just set up a basic web form to capture the information, and as you enter, they invite you to scan a QR code that loads up the form. QR codes are already everywhere these days so it should be easy enough to introduce that into church. (My little mission already uses them on our publicity and outreach materials.)
The pen & paper option can still be available as an unadvertised back-up option in case there are people who don't bring their mobile phones to church or who don't possess such things but at least it would reduce the number of people using them.
In RC churches in Scotland only the celebrant and/or deacon will do readings etc. Masks should be worn by those attending, but not by celebrant doing readings or prayers. Communion given at normal time, in England I think that it is general that Communion is administered at the end of Mass and people then leave the church.
No. Communion is at the normal time, but without the usual words. The time is actually up to the local bishop. My side of the Mersey its the usual place, but in Liverpool it seems to be at the end.
For those concerned about the method of data gathering (pieces of paper, shared writing implements, &c.) for tracing purposes, one possibility might be to adopt the method used in a pub I visited with a parishioner two days ago, (back in the days when we were allowed to do such things!).
They just set up a basic web form to capture the information, and as you enter, they invite you to scan a QR code that loads up the form. QR codes are already everywhere these days so it should be easy enough to introduce that into church. (My little mission already uses them on our publicity and outreach materials.)
The pen & paper option can still be available as an unadvertised back-up option in case there are people who don't bring their mobile phones to church or who don't possess such things but at least it would reduce the number of people using them.
The CofS has joined a QR code scheme. However they don’t know my congregation! I am using paper, which only I write on. At least for now.
For those concerned about the method of data gathering (pieces of paper, shared writing implements, &c.) for tracing purposes, one possibility might be to adopt the method used in a pub I visited with a parishioner two days ago, (back in the days when we were allowed to do such things!).
They just set up a basic web form to capture the information, and as you enter, they invite you to scan a QR code that loads up the form. QR codes are already everywhere these days so it should be easy enough to introduce that into church. (My little mission already uses them on our publicity and outreach materials.)
The pen & paper option can still be available as an unadvertised back-up option in case there are people who don't bring their mobile phones to church or who don't possess such things but at least it would reduce the number of people using them.
The CofS has joined a QR code scheme. However they don’t know my congregation! I am using paper, which only I write on. At least for now.
Yeah... with careful instruction some of our elders can just about manage to connect to a Zoom meeting (around half) using an iPad. The chances of them being able to operate a smart phone sufficiently well to use a QR code, never mind having data with which to connect to a website, are slim. As for the rest of the congregation, it is perhaps illustrative that on dropping off last week's DVD service I discovered that one of our elderly members did not in fact have a functioning DVD player and had been trying to use it in her CD player. Fortunately I have a spare and will rectify the problem today but that gives you an idea of where we're at technologically. These aren't stupid people, but many of them are elderly and others work in crofting or construction where IT skills simply aren't a major part of their lives. Heck, I'm a heavy IT user and I'm more likely to type in a URL than use a QR code under most circumstances. I think when you're used to computers and other electronics it's easy to forget just how much that familiarity is transferrable to new tech and how much unfamiliarity can make the whole thing appear fiendishly complex and scary.
If we ever have to do the contact tracing thing, it would be pen and paper in my congregation as we are not a tech savvy bunch in the main. In my early-fifties I am among those who had to learn to fight technology after school, and I am pretty typical of the parish. Some of us never got the hang of it, and several of us have professions where IT is not required. With regards to the virus, we seem to be holding our own here quite well. The city does not have much in the way of bars, which is a relic of the days of Local Option, and we are a long way from the beach.
For our Wednesday private prayer we have a designated steward alone taking down details using paper and pen, in a folder; wiping it all with anti-bacterial wipe afterwards. And as we're supposed to destroy the details three weeks later, it'll be easy enough to shred the pages. For return attenders, it's also easy just to note that they're there. For attendance of services, I notice that the Scot. Episc. Church guidelines suggest we might like to have a pre-printed list ready with regular attenders and tick them off (in a manner of speaking) as they enter.
Well, I suppose the QR idea isn't the best solution for everywhere by the sounds of things. I thought I'd offer it as a suggestion as I thought it was a good idea when I saw it.
For me, personally, I find text entry on my phone to be really very tedious, to the point that I only really use it for brief messages. If I'm writing a detailed email, posting to somewhere like SoF, or having a long conversation in text, I usually ditch my phone and open the laptop.
I've used the swipe-style keyboard on my phones for about 10 years now, which makes it easier, but that only works for recognised words and not for URLs, which require going back to typing each character individually. In short, if there's a QR code, you can be sure I'll be using that to make life easier.
I think I must be officially an Old Reactionary Git, as I'm afraid I shrink from relying too much on technology (having just been without BT broadband for a fortnight...TBTG for Vodafone...).
Re masks - the C of E is still considering the PM's latest diktat, causing some angst to our Churchwarden (in his 50s, and a busy schoolteacher, and who has therefore had a lot to put up with as regards *government* guidance).
The good CW had a bit of a Rant before Mass this morning, saying that he was heartily fed up with the Whole Thing, and railing against the *government* and its apparent inconsistencies...
I saw his point, but We Are All In This Together, and the wearing of masks at least shows some practical concern for the well-being of others. I hope that sensible counsels will prevail, and that people will cheerfully wear masks in church (most of our folk do so already, good bunnies that they are), but some leeway needs to be allowed for those presiding/reading/preaching.
Incidentally, Brother R (to whom I give a lift to church on Sundays - with him sitting, duly masked, in the back seat) pointed out that he, being epileptic, is not required to wear a face-covering. His epilepsy is controlled well by medication (I don't think he's had a seizure for some years now), but he masks up as a protection of others.
I'm also officially epileptic (again, controlled by meds), so I wonder if the same exemption applies to me?
@Bishops Finger I teach for the diocesan Theological Institute here, and I have become a definite skeptic about technology, especially IT. The usual deal is that I lecture online, and the lectures are recorded and put into an archive so that students can refer back to them. Sadly, the quality of the recordings is frequently so bad due to our on-again; off-again bandwidth that they are either difficult to use, or they have to be re-recorded, which is a chore. The system works fine for tutorials, but lectures, with 12 to 15 folks tuning in, seems to strain the server somehow. I would hate to try and do a church service over a wire that way. Some IT whiz could doubtless sort our end out, if it is indeed the problem, but the bandwidth is an issue largely beyond our control.
Basically, that is what the local telephone chaps say too. At the beginning of this mess I was total 'off the record' that they wish churches would stagger it a bit rather than all trying to live stream at 11:00am on a Sunday morning. I notice that since early May they have been staggering it a bit. The Lutherans do 10:00am, the Presbyterians 10:30am, etc..
Very true - we shall have to learn how to smile using our eyes!
I've actually found myself trying to do that, like an idiot. I know that if you genuinely smile 'it reaches your eyes'. But I feel so denuded of being able to show friendliness I catch myself doing stupid googly-eyed expressions at the people I'm talking to. I must look like somebody demented, from a horror movie. (Which to be honest probably does reflect a lot of what's going on inside my head...)
I have to admit that I also find this to be the case. At least the mask conceals most of the Ghastly Grimace, I suppose.
Does anyone remember the delightful Mr Men books, by Roger Hargreaves? There was also a series about 'Roundies' and 'Squaries', I think - Squaries smile with their Teeth, but Roundies smile with their Eyes...
A few people were missing (work commitments), but everyone who did attend behaved Properly in accordance with Mr Johnson's Commands, as interpreted by the Bishops and ArchdemonsArchdeacons.
The New Normal™, I know, but I was glad it was my turn to read the Lessons, preach, and lead the prayers. It's OK to remove the mask for that purpose, and the lectern is far enough away from the Faithful to make it reasonably safe (or as safe as can be), so at least I had a few minutes' respite...
For those of you whose churches are now open again for public worship - how are you getting on?
Our Place has had Mass every Sunday from 5th July, and we are now having a service on Tuesdays and on Thursdays, using two separate chapels. Weekday attendance is OK (single figures, but hey - we were lucky to get 2 or 3 before lockdown).
Sundays have been a bit low, though I know of some who view the service online (via Facebook).
Alas, our young families (those with babies/toddlers/primary school children) have NOT returned, though we do have a couple of young teenagers in church most weeks. I have no idea if or when we will be able to start singing again, or have some sort of Yoof Work in or alongside our Sunday Mass in church, but it's early days, and, of course, August is traditionally 'holiday time' (or 'staycation time' this year).
Several of our neighbouring churches report a similar scenario, which seems likely to be The New Normal for some time to come, but the clergy and ministers are encouraged by the faith and devotion of those who have returned so far!
We are down to only two 'shelter-in-places' that have not yet returned to church, but some of the faces that used to be occasional have become more regular in their attendance. We seem to be seeing slightly more people slightly less often. Yesterday, we had 16 in the morning and the same in the evening, and probably 22/3 individuals represented, which would have been a decent day Pre-Covid.
I have noticed that the folks who tend NOT to be around people during the week follow the 2 yard rule, whilst those who do work around people tend to distance at '2 yards and then some.' However the main change in the way we relate to one another has been the abolition of hugging, as we have always tended to be very northern European about personal space, as in
Lena: "The governor says we have to keep six feet apart"
Ole: "That sounds too close to me!"
The regulars have been terribly good about keeping up with their tithes and offerings, and some how have been away for several months made it up when they got back, so financially we are OK. Compared to last year we are maybe 2% down. It also looks as though we are going to have a tenant for the school building once we can get the fire marshal, building inspector, and the DSS on the same page. However, that is not my problem, as being an 'auslander' it is best to leave it to the locals to piss one another off trying to get things sorted out.
Numbers down on Sundays. No singing so I provide gentle mood music on the digi piano. No children. Not at all like the lively family Mass of yore.
Local Methodist church is closed still and a couple of their folk come to Mass on Mondays where they receive communion - the PP operating on a "dont ask" basis.
BTW - pastoral sensitivity was the phrase I was searching for...
I, too, very much miss the lively 'Family Mass' our Sunday service had become over the year or so prior to lockdown. Although still small in numbers, the congregation was growing noticeably younger, IYSWIM...
Comments
It was strange. Limited to 30 mourners even though we allow 80 on Sundays.
Is 30 a government figure?
But no restrictions for Sundays, the size of the building being the indicator of the number allowed.
Actually I think the Scottish decision is a bit wierd, as folk tend to attend funerals not as individuals but as households, which can sit together.
Actually it isn't 50 regardless of the size of the building. The 2 metre restrictions still apply but 50 is the maximum. I can get 26 in one of my buildings (if the animals come in two by two - i.e. in households who can sit together so need less individual space - and of course they don't), I can get 30 in one and 40 in the one that we are actually opening for prayer services next week. But no matter how large the building, 50 is the maximum. I know of no church buildings in the neck of the wood, of any denomination, which could rise to that height.
Especially because funerals often bring together diverse people rather than those used to attending a venue together.
3 of those attending were people returning after 4 months' absence, so it was indeed good to see them (at an appropriate distance, of course...).
Because of the lay out of the church, every other pew with folks sitting at either end of the pew seems to work for us and give us an all up capacity of somewhere between 30 and 50 depending on the mix of singles, couples, and families. This is not stressing us as we are a small congregation, but the Catholic Church a short block up the street from us has had to introduce quite elaborate measures to ensure that they keep it socially distanced.
I guess we'll wait and see what our Bishop and Archdeacon advise...though masks are strongly recommended already.
Last Sunday, many of our folk did indeed wear a face-covering, anyway, but readers/preachers need to remove theirs in order to be heard! Some sort of sensible balance has to be found here, I think.
Thats been the rule in RC (Eng and Wales) places since reopening, except for readers and celebrants and people receiving communion at the moment of communion. Its no big deal. PP is a massive Liverpool football fan and he sports a club mask - but not while officiating, though the red would work at Pentecost and Good Friday.
Meanwhile, I daresay the C of E will also decree that masks are mandatory, save for the obvious exceptions @Alan29 mentions.
I wonder how much longer we've got before it's back to 'private prayer only', or even complete closure again?
They just set up a basic web form to capture the information, and as you enter, they invite you to scan a QR code that loads up the form. QR codes are already everywhere these days so it should be easy enough to introduce that into church. (My little mission already uses them on our publicity and outreach materials.)
The pen & paper option can still be available as an unadvertised back-up option in case there are people who don't bring their mobile phones to church or who don't possess such things but at least it would reduce the number of people using them.
No. Communion is at the normal time, but without the usual words. The time is actually up to the local bishop. My side of the Mersey its the usual place, but in Liverpool it seems to be at the end.
The CofS has joined a QR code scheme. However they don’t know my congregation! I am using paper, which only I write on. At least for now.
Yeah... with careful instruction some of our elders can just about manage to connect to a Zoom meeting (around half) using an iPad. The chances of them being able to operate a smart phone sufficiently well to use a QR code, never mind having data with which to connect to a website, are slim. As for the rest of the congregation, it is perhaps illustrative that on dropping off last week's DVD service I discovered that one of our elderly members did not in fact have a functioning DVD player and had been trying to use it in her CD player. Fortunately I have a spare and will rectify the problem today but that gives you an idea of where we're at technologically. These aren't stupid people, but many of them are elderly and others work in crofting or construction where IT skills simply aren't a major part of their lives. Heck, I'm a heavy IT user and I'm more likely to type in a URL than use a QR code under most circumstances. I think when you're used to computers and other electronics it's easy to forget just how much that familiarity is transferrable to new tech and how much unfamiliarity can make the whole thing appear fiendishly complex and scary.
For me, personally, I find text entry on my phone to be really very tedious, to the point that I only really use it for brief messages. If I'm writing a detailed email, posting to somewhere like SoF, or having a long conversation in text, I usually ditch my phone and open the laptop.
I've used the swipe-style keyboard on my phones for about 10 years now, which makes it easier, but that only works for recognised words and not for URLs, which require going back to typing each character individually. In short, if there's a QR code, you can be sure I'll be using that to make life easier.
Re masks - the C of E is still considering the PM's latest diktat, causing some angst to our Churchwarden (in his 50s, and a busy schoolteacher, and who has therefore had a lot to put up with as regards *government* guidance).
The good CW had a bit of a Rant before Mass this morning, saying that he was heartily fed up with the Whole Thing, and railing against the *government* and its apparent inconsistencies...
I saw his point, but We Are All In This Together, and the wearing of masks at least shows some practical concern for the well-being of others. I hope that sensible counsels will prevail, and that people will cheerfully wear masks in church (most of our folk do so already, good bunnies that they are), but some leeway needs to be allowed for those presiding/reading/preaching.
Incidentally, Brother R (to whom I give a lift to church on Sundays - with him sitting, duly masked, in the back seat) pointed out that he, being epileptic, is not required to wear a face-covering. His epilepsy is controlled well by medication (I don't think he's had a seizure for some years now), but he masks up as a protection of others.
I'm also officially epileptic (again, controlled by meds), so I wonder if the same exemption applies to me?
https://epilepsysociety.org.uk/news/wearing-face-mask-epilepsy-15-07-2020#.Xya8H8LsZjo
The BT technician who fixed my Broadband problem admitted that a lot of issues were being caused simply by the system being overloaded at present.
Doesn't matter if they're not cheerful about it: you can't see the lack of smiles if they are wearing masks.
Very true - we shall have to learn how to smile using our eyes!
I've actually found myself trying to do that, like an idiot. I know that if you genuinely smile 'it reaches your eyes'. But I feel so denuded of being able to show friendliness I catch myself doing stupid googly-eyed expressions at the people I'm talking to. I must look like somebody demented, from a horror movie. (Which to be honest probably does reflect a lot of what's going on inside my head...)
Does anyone remember the delightful Mr Men books, by Roger Hargreaves? There was also a series about 'Roundies' and 'Squaries', I think - Squaries smile with their Teeth, but Roundies smile with their Eyes...
A few people were missing (work commitments), but everyone who did attend behaved Properly in accordance with Mr Johnson's Commands, as interpreted by the Bishops and ArchdemonsArchdeacons.
The New Normal™, I know, but I was glad it was my turn to read the Lessons, preach, and lead the prayers. It's OK to remove the mask for that purpose, and the lectern is far enough away from the Faithful to make it reasonably safe (or as safe as can be), so at least I had a few minutes' respite...
And we're not in Wales...
Well that's not surprising. I mean, if you were to sneeze up an organ pipe just as the maestro tickled it ... quelle horreur!
Given the advocacy of perspex screens in other covid-related advice to churches I can see only one potential suspect.
Our Place has had Mass every Sunday from 5th July, and we are now having a service on Tuesdays and on Thursdays, using two separate chapels. Weekday attendance is OK (single figures, but hey - we were lucky to get 2 or 3 before lockdown).
Sundays have been a bit low, though I know of some who view the service online (via Facebook).
Alas, our young families (those with babies/toddlers/primary school children) have NOT returned, though we do have a couple of young teenagers in church most weeks. I have no idea if or when we will be able to start singing again, or have some sort of Yoof Work in or alongside our Sunday Mass in church, but it's early days, and, of course, August is traditionally 'holiday time' (or 'staycation time' this year).
Several of our neighbouring churches report a similar scenario, which seems likely to be The New Normal for some time to come, but the clergy and ministers are encouraged by the faith and devotion of those who have returned so far!
I have noticed that the folks who tend NOT to be around people during the week follow the 2 yard rule, whilst those who do work around people tend to distance at '2 yards and then some.' However the main change in the way we relate to one another has been the abolition of hugging, as we have always tended to be very northern European about personal space, as in
Lena: "The governor says we have to keep six feet apart"
Ole: "That sounds too close to me!"
The regulars have been terribly good about keeping up with their tithes and offerings, and some how have been away for several months made it up when they got back, so financially we are OK. Compared to last year we are maybe 2% down. It also looks as though we are going to have a tenant for the school building once we can get the fire marshal, building inspector, and the DSS on the same page. However, that is not my problem, as being an 'auslander' it is best to leave it to the locals to piss one another off trying to get things sorted out.
Local Methodist church is closed still and a couple of their folk come to Mass on Mondays where they receive communion - the PP operating on a "dont ask" basis.
A decent cove.
BTW - pastoral sensitivity was the phrase I was searching for...
I, too, very much miss the lively 'Family Mass' our Sunday service had become over the year or so prior to lockdown. Although still small in numbers, the congregation was growing noticeably younger, IYSWIM...