Fuck this fucking virus with a fucking farm implement.

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Comments

  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    anoesis wrote: »
    It is not purely utilitarian either - if you are, say, 87 with moderate dementia and osteoporosis (or family of said person) and you go into cardiac arrest at home. Do you want cpr ? Do you want someone to break your ribs to keep your heart going - to get you as far as icu,
    Sure - quite possibly you don't want these things, in such a situation, but the point is that it's meant to be about what you want, not what is most expedient, and the fact that they're called 'do not resuscitate' orders is a clue toward the default, in normal circumstances, being toward active maintenance of life. Which is good, because it means that not only does an individual have to go to the extent of making a declaration, via an official channel, but also your attending clinicians don't have to check that you've requested to be kept alive before starting to work on you.
    Quite how situations will be managed in the next little while I have no idea, but one thing I'm certain of: I'd rather have clinicians making the coal-face decisions than politicians. Sadly, to the extent that their coal-face decisions are likely to be affected by lack of personnel and under-resourcing, they're inevitably going to be clearing up after the politicians, who will themselves never have to make eye-contact with, much less turn off the machines of, those they've thrown under the bus.

    Yes, it should be about what the invidual wants - the respect process is supposed to support that. The concern is if it is misused. In cases reported in the U.K. press where it ostensibly appears a blanket decision is being made - national bodies like NHS England have claimed this a misinterpretation of official guidance.

    As I understand it, official guidance is meant to be - if you are elderly or otherwise vulnerable, it would be a good idea to talk to your family and discuss and record *what you want* to happen should you become seriously ill.

    It is not expected to be, if you fall into the vulnerable category please sign a piece of paper to say you want palliative rather than icu care - so we’ll feel better if we make that decision on your behalf.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Patdys wrote: »
    May I speak to advance care planning.
    (...)
    Quotes file.

  • fineline wrote: »
    Interesting. I googled and it seems to be a term used mainly in Canada so far. I was wondering how it is different, in how it presents, to cPTSD (complex PTSD), which is also caused by repetitive stress/trauma, though largely from childhood, so is developmental, while this seems specific to military and frontline workers. I found this article.

    I found interesting the use of the term 'injury' because I have observed a lot of people with PTSD argue that PTSD should be described as an injury rather than a disorder, as it is caused by something that happened to them and thus injured them, and if it had been a physical thing, like an accident/assault causing a broken leg, then it would be called an injury.

    I do hope ways can soon be found to help people working on the frontline deal with this repeated stress and trauma - I have been thinking a lot about the psychological impact it must have.

    The guidance cascading down from professional bodies in the U.K. to mental health professionals - who will be involved in staff support - is concern re ptsd, burnout and the risk of ‘moral injury’. Moral injury being the mental anguish caused by having to make shit decisions in a shit situation that conflict with core values that you hold.
  • OSI describes things from repetitive service, where you're maybe not exposed to a specific trauma event or series thereof. We use the term complex-PTSD here more often to describe PTSD plus another co-existing symptomatic diagnosis.

    A difficulty is that diagnostic terminology gets used in public *and* medical discourse. They may mean different things in different contexts.

    Re OSI. I'm encouraging the use of this terminology versus trauma language because of the sustained nature of the pandemic. It's not trauma the same way.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    @Doublethink, yes, those awful decisions that have to be made must be morally heartbreaking and traumatic.

    @NOprophet_NØprofit , pretty much everything I've read on cPTSD, from any country, including Canada, is that it is caused by exposure to sustained/prolonged stress/trauma (from the very start, when the term was first suggested by Judith Herman in the early 1990s) so that doesn't seem to be a useful distinction for differential diagnosis to me, and doesn't seem to be the distinction made in the article I linked to in my previous post either. I can definitely see how this particular type of stress would benefit from more specific research of the specific issues encountered, as Doublethink has described, but what you are suggesting seems like a bit of a red herring and doesn't fit with anything I've read.
  • Re Herman. Sexual abuse, incest etc is not medical frontline workers' experience in a pandemic.
  • Most of mental health is private here and not publicly funded. This is what's online right now here re public funding for workers, it predates the pandemic (health is provincial not national). The CPA (Cdn Psychological Association) response was to ask for volunteers to provide free services in an ad hoc manner. So disorganized for mental health injury. Contrasting with the physical medicine response which is pretty well organized.

    Thanks for the links. I'll use them.
  • The CPA has some fact sheets online now, obviously the set up in the U.K. is different - but if they are giving systems level advice to the government it is possible it hasn’t been put on the public facing site.

  • In the helpful advice category, I've just heard of a snappy acronym to motivate commuters to be careful: Stay Healthy In Transit.
  • Covid Really Affects People
  • The most damaging things I've seen from the point of view of my mental health are these articles that try and make anyone who is feeling bad feel guilty about communicating these feelings. There has to be some kind of way of helping people in the community process their feelings so that we don't explode back into each other's physical company in such poor shape that we end up damaging each other. A personality reshaped by enforced solitude, or the company of one other person, may be singularly poorly adapted to the company of others.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Not unexpectedly domestic violence rates have risen here,
  • The most damaging things I've seen from the point of view of my mental health are these articles that try and make anyone who is feeling bad feel guilty about communicating these feelings. There has to be some kind of way of helping people in the community process their feelings so that we don't explode back into each other's physical company in such poor shape that we end up damaging each other. A personality reshaped by enforced solitude, or the company of one other person, may be singularly poorly adapted to the company of others.

    There’s going to be a tragic number of mental health problems, domestic violence cases and divorces that will be directly caused by this lockdown. Not to mention all the economic impacts from closed businesses and lost jobs. But that’s not important, apparently. Completely destroying people’s lives is perfectly ok as long as it’s done in the name of saving their lives.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    What would you have us do Marvin? End the lockdown, see a massive rise in current cases, entirely overwhelm the NHS and see thousands of deaths of people who would not have died soon anyway if they had had access to a ventilator? We're not doing this because we like it; we're doing it because we have to.

    You've done a lot of moaning about the situation; that's fine. But you seem to think it's the wrong policy. What policy do you propose, and why?
  • Businesses will reopen, and re-employ those who've been furloughed. That's short term.

    Treating mental health problems will take longer. It can be offset a bit by investing now in providing means for people to talk with someone while they're at home.

    Domestic violence is a scourge in our society, and those who deal with this have been warning for weeks that this is going to be a problem and have been fund raising to try and mitigate the effects. Probably the government could be doing more.

    Society has been taken apart. There is hope that when we get around to putting it back together we can fix some of the deep seated problems in society. We're already regaining a sense of local community, more awareness of out immediate neighbours. We're already regaining an appreciation of the health and care services, and he other people who serve us in the background - from the workers who stock our supermarket shelves to those who teach our children and many more. We're finding new ways to do work without commuting ridiculous distances on a daily basis - if those carry over then we'll have less traffic on our roads and cut our carbon footprints. We're appreciating being able to breath on our daily walks around the neighbourhood, we won't rapidly regain the tolerance for the filthy air we endured only a few weeks ago.
  • One option would be to strictly and completely lock down those who are most at risk (over 70s and those with serious respiratory conditions), meaning they wouldn’t get the disease (which would reduce the death rate considerably). The NHS would be able to cope with the smaller number of otherwise healthy people who would need hospitalisation, and the vast majority of the population who caught it would only have mild symptoms.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    One option would be to strictly and completely lock down those who are most at risk (over 70s and those with serious respiratory conditions), meaning they wouldn’t get the disease (which would reduce the death rate considerably). The NHS would be able to cope with the smaller number of otherwise healthy people who would need hospitalisation, and the vast majority of the population who caught it would only have mild symptoms.

    Have you done the maths to be sure that the NHS would cope with this smaller number?

    If it helps, Telegraph reported on 18th March that Roughly five per cent of people in their 40s will need to be treated in hospital after contracting a Covid-19 infection, doubling to 10.2 per cent among those in their 50s and 16.6 per cent of those in their 60s.

    A significant proportion of these need the attention of the ICU.
  • The biggest problem is the total lack of an exit strategy. We’ve gone into lockdown with no way of coming back out again. This is permanent, or for so long that it may as well be.

    It’s been two weeks, and I’m about ready to break my own leg just so I’ll have to go to hospital so can get a change of scenery. I kinda want to catch the virus so that I’ll have something different to do. And this is after two weeks. The thought of it stretching out to dozens of weeks, months, years is terrifying. I can’t live like this for that long. I just can’t. I could call a therapist, but what can they do? Tell me to pretend this isn’t reality?

    I’d rather die of Covid than live in lockdown. There, I said it.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    If that is genuinely how you feel, you’d should definitely seek professional help regarding your mental health.

    Therapists won’t try to tell you everything is fine, but they will help you find ways to cope.

    In addition to talking therapies, medication can be helpful if you are anxious and/or depressed.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    You're allowed out for exercise - are you doing that? You're not stuck in your own home.

    I'm not sure what you mean by no exit strategy. Peak infection increase is expected Easter weekend; after that the infection rate is expected to slow rather than increase exponentially. The rate of increase has already dropped from what would have been without the lockdown. As this process continues, the restrictions can be relaxed. That's the strategy. What are you specifically looking at as a strategy? Specific dates?
  • I feel your pain. I'm an introvert, and I'm struggling. My change of scenery is, by necessity, either the local neighbourhood (I've been finding out where all those little side paths off the roads I'm familiar with go) or the grocery store. Plus, a fair bit more video conferencing than usual - it's amazing when a half hour talking to the boss seems a highlight of the day! It's taken a week, but I've found a routine that sort of helps focus on work even though I know productivity has fallen. But, I've also spent years living on a model of making it through to the end of the day is a success so continuing on that approach isn't too much of a shift.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    The biggest problem is the total lack of an exit strategy. We’ve gone into lockdown with no way of coming back out again. This is permanent, or for so long that it may as well be.

    It’s been two weeks, and I’m about ready to break my own leg just so I’ll have to go to hospital so can get a change of scenery. I kinda want to catch the virus so that I’ll have something different to do. And this is after two weeks. The thought of it stretching out to dozens of weeks, months, years is terrifying. I can’t live like this for that long. I just can’t. I could call a therapist, but what can they do? Tell me to pretend this isn’t reality?

    I’d rather die of Covid than live in lockdown. There, I said it.

    I’d ring a coach, not a therapist. They will help to motivate you to do the 1000s of things that can be done, and enjoyed, at home.

  • Actually @Boogie it's not so easy to get all those things done around a 14 month old. They are very demanding, so bright ideas for coaching to do things just adds to the frustration.

    Young children's company 24/7 is really hard work, they need 100% supervising, can't be left to get on with anything on their own, limit how far you can walk and things that keep you sane are not so easy around young kids that want to get involved. I couldn't, for example, dress-make around an awake young baby. And that sleeping time was spent trying to do some paid work.

    * I used a baby carrier and got out into the countryside, but it had to be timed around the baby, by which time the dog was crossing its legs. And you're not allowed to drive out to walk in many places.
  • People who don’t appreciate the fluffy knitted yoghurt approach to coping, might be interested in Dave’s calm project and podcast. With professional comedians - which generally is a good start.

    (Yes, I know this is hell, but some folk don’t see themselves as All Saints kinda people.)
  • JennyAnnJennyAnn Shipmate Posts: 38
    Actually @Boogie it's not so easy to get all those things done around a 14 month old. They are very demanding, so bright ideas for coaching to do things just adds to the frustration.

    Absolutely. Marvin, you have my sympathy.

    All these box sets I’m supposed to watch, computer games I can play, books I can read, craft/sewing I can do etc etc etc is just not possible. And my 8 month old is not a toddler, she’s _much_ easier than that. And I’m not trying to work as well.

    I know exactly what you mean about rather getting the virus than living in lockdown. I said it too, you’re not alone.
  • I used to use my toddler as an exercise weight - she thought it was a game. Flying babies meant lying on the floor on my back and using my lower legs to fly her around. Very good for the stomach muscles. And a similar exercise on arms.

    The other tip for coping with work around a young child is chunking the work to their concentration level. So 15 minutes of them playing with something to do a task, five minutes to play with them and set them up with a TV programme for 20 minutes for the next task. Also making snacks slow to explore and discover to give you time - so raisins wrapped in a spiral of greaseproof paper that needs unwrapping to get to the next one.
  • Over 50% of people who end up in ICU die there. The more people who end up there, the more people die. End of. Stopping people catching the disease is the only sure way of making sure they don't die.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    Marvin, I know you'd have to find a babysitter, but have you considered getting a job at a grocery store or a pharmacy for the duration? When I went to Walmart the other day, the crew was completely different than usual. It seems most of the regular employees have taken leave and they've hired new people who are either desperate for money or just desperate to get out.

  • I’d rather die of Covid than live in lockdown. There, I said it.

    I think a lot of people feel that way.

    Every night I go to sleep feeling sure that I'm unusually warm and it must be a temperature, and that my (usual) cough is taking on a new form. I imagine what my lungs will look like if I get the disease because I have an auto-immune disorder and take immuno-suppressant drugs, and calculate my chances on a ventilator (if there is one free) should I need it. I imagine what it would feel like if my mother dies of it, knowing that the last time I saw her in the flesh, was last November. I wonder who'll take care of my dog. I try not to cough when I'm outside even though the cold makes my nose run and makes me cough a little. I've even had dreams of catching the virus and becoming ill. And I'm highly anxious about my medications because I can only get a month's worth at a time, which means I have to be very careful about when to put my requests in. I've faced the possibility that if I get the disease, I might well die as anyone else. Why not? And actually, I'm over fifty, I've had a fabulous life and in a thousand ways have already been more privileged, cossetted, loved, cared for and blessed than a few billion others on this planet - so I reckon I don't have much to complain about.

    I don't want to pop my clogs. But until then I have things to do, people to talk to, a dog to exercise and amuse, and fucking church filing to do (there's always that!). I'm trying not to drink all my wine stock in one week - hoping that I might still need my liver - and trying to avoid emptying the refrigerator every other day. If I shower and dress, some days, I'm doing well. I wish I could give you a hug, Marvin.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    Actually @Boogie it's not so easy to get all those things done around a 14 month old. They are very demanding, so bright ideas for coaching to do things just adds to the frustration.

    Young children's company 24/7 is really hard work, they need 100% supervising, can't be left to get on with anything on their own, limit how far you can walk and things that keep you sane are not so easy around young kids that want to get involved. I couldn't, for example, dress-make around an awake young baby. And that sleeping time was spent trying to do some paid work.

    * I used a baby carrier and got out into the countryside, but it had to be timed around the baby, by which time the dog was crossing its legs. And you're not allowed to drive out to walk in many places.

    I know.

    My son has a five month old baby.

    I’ve had two myself.

    A coach works with your actual circumstances - not with an ideal scenario.

  • There are still people who find coaching utterly maddening, of whom I am one. I am extremely glad you are not seeking to coach me, because I would be telling you in no uncertain terms exactly what to do with that advice.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    I used to use my toddler as an exercise weight - she thought it was a game. Flying babies meant lying on the floor on my back and using my lower legs to fly her around. Very good for the stomach muscles. And a similar exercise on arms.

    The other tip for coping with work around a young child is chunking the work to their concentration level. So 15 minutes of them playing with something to do a task, five minutes to play with them and set them up with a TV programme for 20 minutes for the next task. Also making snacks slow to explore and discover to give you time - so raisins wrapped in a spiral of greaseproof paper that needs unwrapping to get to the next one.

    Exactly the kind of ideas a coach would explore. But it would be personalised specific and solution focussed coaching rather than vague ideas from an internet friend.

  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    There are still people who find coaching utterly maddening, of whom I am one. I am extremely glad you are not seeking to coach me, because I would be telling you in no uncertain terms exactly what to do with that advice.

    Advice isn’t given.

    Solutions are looked for for with the client, working on what they think is realistic.

    The fact that you think coaches give advice shows you don’t have the first idea what coaching is about.

  • Boogie wrote: »
    There are still people who find coaching utterly maddening, of whom I am one. I am extremely glad you are not seeking to coach me, because I would be telling you in no uncertain terms exactly what to do with that advice.

    Advice isn’t given.

    Solutions are looked for for with the client, working on what they think is realistic.

    The fact that you think coaches give advice shows you don’t have the first idea what coaching is about.

    This is another of those things about the difference between the speaker's/author's intention and that of the person receiving it. I have been coached, and that only worked because I asked for it. If you can't understand the utterly destructive effect of unsolicited coaching, then fuck you with the aforementioned farm implement.
  • Anselmina wrote: »
    I don't want to pop my clogs.

    It ain’t Plan A for me either. But I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that it’s a chance that would be worth taking in order to live a normal life.
    But until then I have things to do, people to talk to, a dog to exercise and amuse, and fucking church filing to do (there's always that!).

    Having things to do isn’t a problem - having a 14 month old and a full time job that still has to get done from home takes care of that. Having things to do that aren’t chores, work or sources of stress is.
    I'm trying not to drink all my wine stock in one week - hoping that I might still need my liver

    If I lived alone I don’t think I’d spend a minute of this sober.
    and trying to avoid emptying the refrigerator every other day. If I shower and dress, some days, I'm doing well.

    I haven’t showered in ages and today was the first time I wore something other than my pyjamas in a while. Not only is there not much time to do it, I just don’t see the point if I’m not going to be meeting up with anyone else.
    I wish I could give you a hug, Marvin.

    Thanks.
  • Have you any chance of getting yourself furloughed ?
  • None that I’m aware of.
  • Well, depression is an illness like any other - call in sick if you are ill, it maybe you need time to recover from all the welter of sudden change.
  • I haven’t showered in ages and today was the first time I wore something other than my pyjamas in a while. Not only is there not much time to do it, I just don’t see the point if I’m not going to be meeting up with anyone else.
    This isn't advice, as each of us is in a unique position and what works for one person won't be any use for another. And, I'm in a very different position (I'm home alone, rather than having to juggle working from home with sole care for a young child). It took me a couple of days to work out that I needed structure - starting with getting up at normal time, showering and getting dressed as though I was going out to work. But, young children are notorious for messing with any schedule like that - though, presumably before this you got up, showered and dressed to take little one to whatever child minder or kindergarten you used.

    Also when we were preparing for closing down the labs our director let it be known that academics working from home, especially with children, were not expected to be working at maximum productivity - his opinion was that 50% productivity would be good going. And, he wasn't expecting non-academic staff to be any better. So, I've no guilt over taking three or four days to do something I should have completed in a couple of days had I been at my desk. Of course, if your boss is an a**hole and expects you to do all you did before while also looking after children then that's not much use.

    I don't know what support you might have. The university here has been bending over backwards to try and help staff and students through this time. And, we have a phone service for anyone who needs any sort of support, from specific advice about finances through to just needing a chat - though I've no idea how long the wait to get through will be as I'm sure they're very busy. I don't see what harm's done by finding out what support is available.
  • And getting sick won't necessarily make things better. I'm showing symptoms, which means I'm confined to one room now and already stir crazy.
  • People are resilient. 1 to 2% of the general population have trauma related issues every year. For hosp emergency staff up to 30% in a year. Soldiers in battle 60-80%. With good care, 80% are functioning normally with scars at 18 month followup. Of those who aren't functioning at pre-mental health injury, almost all are doing okay or okay-ish with ongoing care.

    Statistics are from my recall when I was involved in policies development.
  • I’d rather die of Covid than live in lockdown. There, I said it.

    I'm sure they could use you in Italy to help gather and dispose of bodies. There, I've said it.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that it’s a chance that would be worth taking in order to live a normal life.

    There's the darkest irony: there isn't a normal life to be had. It simply isn't normal to risk bing directly responsible for the infection of thousands of others, of which 1-4% die, just by being out and about in a blithe manner.

    My own horrible truth is the revelation about how secluded my normal life already is, because of how generally unaffected I am. I always stayed away from people, especially crowds, and do most of my exercising at night when there's nobody out. I've connected with my friends mostly online for decades - since I moved from the Great White North. Hell, I even tended to work remotely just for the ease of it. Shopping online has long been my way. I'm sorry all of you are stuck being me. Except, you know, obviously less awesome.
  • ZoeZoe Shipmate
    I’d rather die of Covid than live in lockdown. There, I said it.

    I suspect your own death is not the worst-case scenario with which you should be comparing this lockdown.

    Given that young people with no known pre-existing health problems have died from COVID19, do you consider living in lockdown worse than a scenario as follows? - all lockdown and distancing regulations are lifted; you get COVID19 and have mild symptoms or are asymptomatic; your wife / partner / best friend gets COVID19 and becomes seriously ill; there is no possibility of that person getting the benefit of an ambulance and/or ventilator and/or ICU bed and/or specialist medical care because the health system has been completely overwhelmed; that person dies and you never know if they would have survived if ambulance / ventilator / ICU bed / specialist medical care had been available - plus add in the deaths of various older friends and relatives in similar circumstances. Is that option preferable to living in lockdown?

    (Plus what Rook said about not being able to go back to normal life as it used to be.)

  • Zoe wrote: »
    I’d rather die of Covid than live in lockdown. There, I said it.

    I suspect your own death is not the worst-case scenario with which you should be comparing this lockdown.

    There's also the alternative of surviving but with significant lung damage and being unable to work for the rest of your life.

    Like the people saying 'I wish we had a war instead' -- these kinds of wishes strike me as supremely narcissistic - even with a war, what makes you think you'd end up in a situation that would be advantageous to your way of thinking (rather than say in the middle of a city under siege - not unlike the present situation).
  • I'm kind of like RooK, although not attaining his supreme supremity. Lockdown isn't much different from normal life, except the missus is doing the shopping. Every cloud ... Oh, and the walks are bloody short. And no hols.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Thing is, life gives you stuff that you'd rather DIE than cope with, even without the benefit of pandemics.

    Living with the unbearable is something you learn.
  • (rather than say in the middle of a city under siege - not unlike the present situation).

    It’s unlike the present situation because in a city under siege you can at least meet with other people in that city. You can still go outside, meet friends, visit family. There’s an existential threat, sure, but it’s not one you have to face alone.
  • (rather than say in the middle of a city under siege - not unlike the present situation).

    It’s unlike the present situation because in a city under siege you can at least meet with other people in that city.

    Sarajevo or Stalingrad, good luck not getting shot on your way out.
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