How is Brexit affecting us?

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  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Not to mention whingeing about being locked down with a rambunctious small child

    Surprising that said poster was not pulled up about that
  • My rather oblique point was that Brexit is self-inflicted, but that Covid-19 is not.

    IOW, any problems arising from Brexit (and their name is Legion) are down to the ridiculous excuse we have for a *government*, and to the equally egregious fools who voted Leave.

    Covid-19, however, is a phenomenon of nature, and as such outwith the control of any government, however useless. (Yes, I know, some progress is being made in controlling it, but I doubt if much of that success is due to politicians...)
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    The Loyalists who voted for Brexit appear to be taking exception to the consequences of having done exactly that. Who could've guessed?

    This roundabout is just down the road from where my mother, my brother and his children and partners live. It's the area where I grew up and went to church. Before I came to Scotland a few years I worked at the hospital that is just off the roundabout to the left of the picture.

    Of course, it's just the Northern Irish. Right? So not exactly the 'me, my family and friends' definition of 'us' that some posters on this thread have, when it comes to answering the question 'how is brexit affecting us'. So I fully anticipate that the negative effects of Brexit on a difficult and hard worn peace in a country still recovering from thirty years of terrorist violence will be treated with ignorance and contempt by the likes of those. However, they are my family and friends, and this is my country - and it's all definitely 'us' so far as I'm concerned.



  • Ah, but even Brexit will allow Cricket to be played, which it seems is all that matters...
  • Covid-19, however, is a phenomenon of nature, and as such outwith the control of any government, however useless. (Yes, I know, some progress is being made in controlling it, but I doubt if much of that success is due to politicians...)
    Though, the spread of coronavirus isn't entirely out of the control of a government. Choice of when to lockdown, when to ease lockdown and the severity of restrictions (including penalties for infractions) is within the remit of government. How to organise and fund test, track, trace and isolate is a decision of government. Whether to require people coming into the country to quarantine or self-isolate, whether the PM should be at COBRA meetings, whether to fund 'eat out to help out' schemes ...

  • Yes, point taken. Perhaps I should have said that not only is Brexit inflicted upon us by our Glorious Leaders, but also that the worst effects of Covid-19 are at least partly their responsibility.

    A catalogue of errors, indeed.
  • @Anselmina - that puts my whinging about cat food into perspective.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    A small thing, but important to those involved - https://tinyurl.com/8kttysjy

    “ The legion of traders who have indulged Britain’s bargain hunters for decades with their van loads of curios and collectibles from France fear Brexit is about to upend their specialist trade just as open markets and vintage shops are about to reopen.

    Importers of everything from farmhouse tables to art deco mirrors and vintage dresses fear they will be stymied by the complicated documentation now required for each item in their van.

    “It’s such a strange thing to have this level of restrictions and difficulty with paperwork and import and export when really what you’re talking about is recycling stuff that has been covered in dust and sitting in a loft and would otherwise have been destined for the bin,” said Rebecca Slade, who runs Sunless Antiques in St Leonards-on-Sea with her partner Adam Freeman.”

    Looks like Brexit’s ‘free trade’ vision was just for the big hitters. Who knew?

    It makes me angry just how duped those who voted for Brexit were. Life will be poorer for 99% of them - not just materially but in 1000 other ways too.

    I can’t send parcels to my family in Germany without it taking six weeks or more and the fear that they’ll have tax to pay. It was a small pleasure of mine, now removed.
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    Re the cat food issue.

    All the major supermarkets are reporting that this is a Covid issue. They claim that there has been a huge increase in people getting "lockdown" pets hence extra demand for food without there having been an increase in production of pet food.

    However, Pendragon and I can't get hold of "senior" cat food.
    Unless the UK has started importing large numbers of elderly cats, there can't have been a lockdown increase in the number of senior cats. Kittens, yes. Seniors, no.
    I suppose it's possible that suppliers have switched from making senior food to kitten food.

    Try Zooplus online. Most of their stuff comes from Germany, but I've had no problems with them so far, for some odd reason.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    I think @Marvin the Martian's comments are salutary - not because Brexit has caused no problems, but because I think a lot of Remainers are expecting an 'I told you so' moment, which IMV won't happen, because most people on the mainland are too far away from the coal-face to appreciate what is happening. Most people on the mainland don't farm shellfish, don't work in import/export, aren't on career paths that require international mobility, don't want to buy specialist parts from small traders in Belgium, and don't pay much attention to Northern Ireland. What they will probably see is price rises, but prices rise all the time and it's not easy to tie that to Brexit.
  • There won't be a collective 'I told you so' moment. But there will be millions of individual ones. Having to apply for a visa, being told that you can't drive on that licence, that piece of paper is no longer valid, your car will be off the road for another month because we can't get that part, that ingredient isn't available any more, your job is being made redundant because 40% of our sales were EU exports...
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    But it's clearly none of it the fault of Johnson and the Nodding Dogs because vaccines.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    There won't be a collective 'I told you so' moment. But there will be millions of individual ones. Having to apply for a visa, being told that you can't drive on that licence, that piece of paper is no longer valid, your car will be off the road for another month because we can't get that part, that ingredient isn't available any more, your job is being made redundant because 40% of our sales were EU exports...

    But again, most of that won't directly impact most people. Most people don't want to spend more than 90 days a year in the EU, and therefore don't need a visa. Most people don't want to drive in the EU (and even if they do, all most people need to do is get a Green Card off their insurer). Most people don't want highly specialised ingredients. The car parts issue is likely to be solved by UK importers building bigger warehouses, which will make your car parts more expensive, but most people probably won't realise that because most people only have a vague idea how much their brake callipers are supposed to cost. Even on the redundancies, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that they will mostly affect cottage industries, and that people working for big companies (i.e. most people) won't see redundancies so much as just find that there don't seem to be as many opportunities for progression as there used to be.
  • Aren't we lucky to have Shipmates who are soooo content with Brexit? They're all right, Jack - and it'll soon be time for Cricket again!

    I expect they're enjoying the Sunlit Uplands, even in the snow...
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    @Anselmina - that puts my whinging about cat food into perspective.

    But you're not whinging. It's an important thing feeding your much loved pet the right food, because you know how it affects their enjoyment of life and their health. It's no small concern when things that make a difference to the quality of life of those we love are threatened.

    On a more general note, even those who feel unaffected by Brexit explicitly should know that Brexit costs aren't going to come out of the Prime Minister's personal funds. Taxpayers are funding the enterprise (according to Bloomberg to the tune of £130bn, to date). What's happening in Ulster is just an example of how things can cost extra when there is carelessness and negligence in government action. And the incompetent implementation of Brexit customs regulations in Northern Ireland, feeding into the violent insecurity of Loyalists is going to require an increased expenditure in security, to say nothing of the increase of danger to security forces membership. And it's not just the Northern Irish British taxpayer who'll be funding that. By all means, we can sit and look at the scenes on the news and say 'nothing to do with me, mate'. But if the viewer is a British taxpayer, that's part of his/her 20% in the pound he's watching going up in smoke! And I suppose that could be applied to any of the situations where bad negotiations and uncertainty are leading to economic penalties eg, fisheries, businesses losing trade in the EU etc. So really, the smoother and more efficient the application of Brexit changes, the better for everyone. Unless, of course, you are wealthy and financially independent of state services!



  • Ethne AlbaEthne Alba Shipmate
    Brexit? Don’t start me.
    I can no longer easily send or receive stuff from friends and family in Ireland. Or Northern Ireland.
    It has also beggered up ordering from a Northern Ireland plant nursery that I like.
    The whole NI / RofI situation is a s***-show & That is affecting people I know and love.


    Going back to my settee to grumble and drink tea.
  • Ricardus wrote: »
    But again, most of that won't directly impact most people. Most people don't want to spend more than 90 days a year in the EU, and therefore don't need a visa. Most people don't want to drive in the EU (and even if they do, all most people need to do is get a Green Card off their insurer). Most people don't want highly specialised ingredients. The car parts issue is likely to be solved by UK importers building bigger warehouses, which will make your car parts more expensive, but most people probably won't realise that because most people only have a vague idea how much their brake callipers are supposed to cost. Even on the redundancies, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that they will mostly affect cottage industries, and that people working for big companies (i.e. most people) won't see redundancies so much as just find that there don't seem to be as many opportunities for progression as there used to be.

    Yes, but the chances of encountering at least one of those situations for each individual is high. Used to going to the European office for a conference? Need a work visa specific for that country. Want a hire car in Malta? UK driving licences aren't recognised. Sending a present to a friend? Customs forms. And so on. The impact of each situation ranges from a mild inconvenience to a career-ending event. I'm not going to predict which is which.
  • I hope the complacent I'm All Right Jack brigade don't fall ill with some fell disease, only to find that life-saving medication is no longer readily available, due to Brexit.

    I don't know offhand if such has happened yet, but there is potential...

  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    To be clear, I agree that Brexit will make things worse for most people, but for most people it will do so in a way that doesn't leave an obvious smoking gun pointing back to Brexit.

    I think there is a bit of a Remainer narrative that sooner or later people will realise they've been sold a pup and they will become very angry about it. I don't think that's what will happen.
  • I thought this was a general narrative by liberal/left people, that many Tory policies are a con. The bit about people realizing, and getting angry, is an extra bit, optional.
  • Ricardus wrote: »
    I think there is a bit of a Remainer narrative that sooner or later people will realise they've been sold a pup and they will become very angry about it. I don't think that's what will happen.

    I tend to agree. There will be enough fog and whataboutery that people who think Brexit was stupid will think it's completely obvious that X amount of measurable economic damage was done by Brexit, whereas pro-Brexit types will be able to claim some other reason.
  • Anything that can't be blamed on something unrelated to Brexit will be blamed on the EU or remainers. If Brexiteers were good at reflection, self-examination, humility, or consideration of evidence they likely wouldn't be Brexiteers in the first place.
  • Or it will be ignored? Are the Brexity media full of stories about the fishing industry, and its ills? Guess.
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    Ricardus wrote: »
    To be clear, I agree that Brexit will make things worse for most people, but for most people it will do so in a way that doesn't leave an obvious smoking gun pointing back to Brexit.

    I think there is a bit of a Remainer narrative that sooner or later people will realise they've been sold a pup and they will become very angry about it. I don't think that's what will happen.

    In general, I'd agree with that.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    I don't think there is any traction for the time being for a campaign to rejoin the EU. What would be worth pushing for is an improvement in relations. Not much chance of that, I fear, with Lord Fost at the wheel.
  • Got my letter from the NatWest Bank today
    Dear Mr Whale

    As you may be aware, when the UK left the EU on 31 January 2020...

    ...we are no longer able to provide banking services for our customers who live in the Netherlands.

    So I have to close my account, or they will do it for me in June.
  • Got my letter from the NatWest Bank today
    Dear Mr Whale

    As you may be aware, when the UK left the EU on 31 January 2020...

    ...we are no longer able to provide banking services for our customers who live in the Netherlands.

    So I have to close my account, or they will do it for me in June.

    Presumably you also have an account with a Dutch bank, but how does this sort of thing impact on those UK businesses trying to set up branches in The Netherlands and elsewhere?

  • Got my letter from the NatWest Bank today
    Dear Mr Whale

    As you may be aware, when the UK left the EU on 31 January 2020...

    ...we are no longer able to provide banking services for our customers who live in the Netherlands.

    So I have to close my account, or they will do it for me in June.

    As a matter of interest, can anyone tell me why not? Why is a UK bank not able to provide banking services to a prospective customer who lives outside the UK, under UK law?
  • I think it is something to do with the money laundering regulations.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited April 9
    Got my letter from the NatWest Bank today
    Dear Mr Whale

    As you may be aware, when the UK left the EU on 31 January 2020...

    ...we are no longer able to provide banking services for our customers who live in the Netherlands.

    So I have to close my account, or they will do it for me in June.

    Are you a British Citizen? My son has a Co-Op bank account here because Student Loans insist he pays them back through a British account. He’s got British and German citizenship.
  • Fawkes CatFawkes Cat Shipmate
    edited April 9
    Got my letter from the NatWest Bank today
    Dear Mr Whale

    As you may be aware, when the UK left the EU on 31 January 2020...

    ...we are no longer able to provide banking services for our customers who live in the Netherlands.

    So I have to close my account, or they will do it for me in June.

    As a matter of interest, can anyone tell me why not? Why is a UK bank not able to provide banking services to a prospective customer who lives outside the UK, under UK law?

    I think that NatWest isn't a recognised* bank in the EU. When the UK was in the EU, mutual acceptance of national rules meant that it could trade throughout the EU - just as a bank based in Greece and regulated by the Greek government could trade in the UK. So there was no need for NatWest to get itself regulated by the Dutch (or Greek, or Irish and so on) government for it to provide banking to people resident in the Netherlands.

    Now the UK has left the EU, that mutual recognition no longer exists. I imagine that eventually NatWest will set up a European subsidiary with authorisation to trade given by a European national government - but that hasn't happened yet, and in NatWest's particular circumstance# there may well be quite a wait for it to happen.

    * whatever the term is - authorised, regulated, whatever

    # prior to the 2008 crash, in the form of the Royal Bank of Scotland it got wildly overextended and had to be (in effect) nationalised to avoid it going bust: part of the deal for letting it go back into the private sector is that it should become a much more modest organisation, sticking to its core job of providing day-to-day banking for individuals and small businesses.
  • I have no idea. I only use my UK account for cash when I am visiting, but some of my colleagues have mortgage payments and various other things coming off theirs which make it more of a problem.

    I'm not sure why it is a problem, I'm pretty sure people have bank accounts in other countries. My guess is that this is one of the negotiations they never got round to in the Brexit talks.

    Nederlandsche Bank on Brexit:
    https://dnb.nl/en/current-economic-issues/brexit/
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Why is a UK bank not able to provide banking services to a prospective customer who lives outside the UK, under UK law?
    Among reasons already mentioned, as I understand it, governments want to keep track of how much money there is in their country since that affects the way the economy works, and it gets awkward if lots of people are bringing large sums into or out of the country without supervision.

  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited April 9
    Fawkes Cat wrote: »
    I think that NatWest isn't a recognised* bank in the EU. When the UK was in the EU, mutual acceptance of national rules meant that it could trade throughout the EU -

    But why is the case of a person in the EU wishing to hold an account in a UK bank viewed as "trading in the EU"? Why isn't it "trading in the UK" which is where the bank account is?

    (I live in the US. I have a UK bank account, and also a UK credit card. I use them both a couple of times a year. )

  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    I think it's more that the banking service is effectively being 'imported' from the UK to the EU, and therefore falls foul of the usual rules on import and export of services where no FTA is in place.
  • There are various things that banks in third nations can't do, or for which there would be significant extra costs. When I was working in Japan, I couldn't have my salary paid into my existing bank account, and withdrawing cash from my existing account carried significant costs. It was simpler to open an account with a Japanese bank for my salary to be paid into, and from which I could withdraw cash. Then I could transfer monies back to my UK bank occasionally to ensure that had sufficient funds to pay the mortgage and other bills for my flat here (for which there were flat charges, so it made sense to make a few large transfers). But, as far as my UK bank was concerned, I still had a UK address ... would that have worked if I didn't keep my UK address?

    I'd expect there are lots of people who had UK bank accounts then took a job elsewhere in the EU and moved there, but kept their bank account. Especially if you were moving around a lot, it would be a lot simpler than working 6 months in France, then taking up another job in Belgium, before moving on again ... if you had to open a new bank account every time you moved that would be a significant barrier to mobility within the EU. I can see how it might not be possible to do that maintaining a main bank account in a third nation, and how therefore UK banks want to make sure they're not breaking the law closing all accounts of people with addresses in the EU - easier than checking that each of those customers understands what they can and can't do in relation to banking within the EU from a UK bank.
  • But why is it? @Jonah the Whale uses his UK account for personal spending when he's in the UK. All the services are taking place in the UK. The only thing that's in the EU is his body during the times that he's not using his bank's services. Perhaps he might also use his UK bank account to make a purchase from a UK company, for shipment to a UK friend or relative. Again, the only thing that's in the EU is Jonah's body. This time it would be directing a bunch of things to happen in the UK.

    @Jonah the Whale's link to the Nederlandsche Bank document makes it sound like a UK bank with an EU-resident customer would fall foul of EU consumer protection law. I certainly wouldn't expect, were I to be a resident of the Netherlands, that Dutch law would protect me in dealings I had with a bank in a foreign country. But apparently the Dutch authorities don't agree with me :wink:
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    But why is it? @Jonah the Whale uses his UK account for personal spending when he's in the UK. All the services are taking place in the UK. The only thing that's in the EU is his body during the times that he's not using his bank's services. Perhaps he might also use his UK bank account to make a purchase from a UK company, for shipment to a UK friend or relative. Again, the only thing that's in the EU is Jonah's body. This time it would be directing a bunch of things to happen in the UK.

    I'm kind of adlibbing here, but I guess the argument is that the UK bank is providing him with a service as long as it maintains a current account for him, and what he does with that current account is up to him.
  • Fawkes CatFawkes Cat Shipmate
    For a slightly more informed view (and hopefully without causing a problem by quoting too extensively from elsewhere) see https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/09/thousands-of-british-expats-face-uk-account-closures/ from September 2020:

    Why are UK banks closing expats' accounts?
    Some UK banks are closing accounts now because of how Brexit is likely to change 'passporting' arrangements at the end of this year.

    'Passporting' is when UK banks are allowed to provide services to customers in other states in the European Economic Area (EEA) – that's the European Union plus Iceland, Liechenstein and Norway – without having to get direct authorisation in those states. Current passporting rules are set to end on 31 December 2020 unless a new agreement is reached with the EU.

    What that means is that, as things stand, from 1 January 2021 each UK bank will need to have separate authorisation in every EEA country it wants to operate in. This would mean applying for a licence in any of those countries it doesn't already trade in. As a result, some banks have decided to simply close accounts in countries where they no longer wish to operate.

    Which is rather different from what I said upthread.
  • There's a missing connection between "operate in" and "have customers who live in". Is there some overarching trade or banking treaty that defines this?
  • Black CatBlack Cat Shipmate Posts: 23
    I'm not sure how much Brexit has to do with bank account rules... a few years after I left the UK a long time ago, I had a Barclays current account (the one I had kept to use when I went back to visit etc) shifted offshore to the Channel Islands by Barclays without consulting me, then turned into a new form of account which required a ridiculous balance to be maintained at all times and a hefty monthly charge to pay ... I closed it.
    But that shows that quite a while ago, Barclays at least decided that having a non UK address meant my account couldn't just sit there. They even cancelled my debit card because I hadn't used it regularly enough - something I found out when trying to buy solmething on a day trip to Jersey!
    Then about 10-15 years ago when I tried to open a new current account in the UK all the high street banks refused because I didn't have a UK address. In the end my mum and I set up a joint account that she just didn't use. But this was all incredibly annoying as I know loads of Brits who opened accounts in France, and to French banks, not living in France wasn't a problem! No idea what the EU/national rules situation was that made that situation possible.
    Now I'm worried my UK banks is going to close my account... no news so far...
  • We're talking about a whole series of regulations, about which I know a tiny bit. Brexit had everything to do with the latest wave, though it sounds like Barclays took a different approach by moving their accounts for non-residents outside the EU regulatory framework some time ago.

    The point is that there is currently effectively no regulatory framework for UK companies to offer financial services to the EU as a whole. This means that the situation depends on the attitudes of individual governments and is a minefield through which everyone is picking their way. Closing all accounts for non-UK-residents is simply a way of avoiding that process.
  • In terms of Brexit impact more generally, its effecting staffing in care work and nursing. The pandemic has not helped, but in my work and my clients lives I see the impact of chronic understaffing and recruitment difficulties.
  • I'm absolutely certain that banks where rich people have their money (lots of them have Isle of Man or Channel Island arm's-length operations) will continue to offer their EU-based clients all the benefits of a UK bank account.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    I'm absolutely certain that banks where rich people have their money (lots of them have Isle of Man or Channel Island arm's-length operations) will continue to offer their EU-based clients all the benefits of a UK bank account.

    Especially as more and more rich Brits flee Ing-Ger-Laaaand in order to continue to reap the benefits of living in the EU.

  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    Rich people have always had freedom of movement.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    I'm absolutely certain that banks where rich people have their money (lots of them have Isle of Man or Channel Island arm's-length operations) will continue to offer their EU-based clients all the benefits of a UK bank account.

    Though I think most such people would prefer the benefits of an IoM / Jersey bank account ...
  • In terms of Brexit impact more generally, its effecting staffing in care work and nursing. The pandemic has not helped, but in my work and my clients lives I see the impact of chronic understaffing and recruitment difficulties.

    If LinkedIn is anything to judge by, the recruitment industry (no friends of mine, I should add, in the interests of fairness), are furious about Ugli Patel's proposed immigration system - it sounds as though it will effectively block all recruitement from overseas because it will make the process much, much slower, to the point where it will be unworkable.

  • Ethne AlbaEthne Alba Shipmate
    edited April 11
    As an aside, in school we had one teacher who used to scrawl across the bottom of essays, “ You have not given this Any thought and it shows”

    Also this govt
  • Ethne Alba wrote: »
    As an aside, in school we had one teacher who used to scrawl across the bottom of essays, “ You have not given this Any thought and it shows”

    Also this govt

    My history teacher, Mr B. commented on one of my essays What worries me about this essay is not the lack of original thought - for one can hardly expect original thought on the Rise of Nazism- but the lack of any evidence of any form of thought at all

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