It puts the coming tribulations into context, and that context is the Last Days of the Earth.
I am about at the end of my days, maybe another ten years if lucky, and I will not live to see the world be destroyed. My generation has created a horrible trap that the world's present children and young adults find themselves caught in.
I think that they deserve to know what is happening to them and why.
It puts the coming tribulations into context, and that context is the Last Days of the Earth.
I am about at the end of my days, maybe another ten years if lucky, and I will not live to see the world be destroyed. My generation has created a horrible trap that the world's present children and young adults find themselves caught in.
I think that they deserve to know what is happening to them and why.
Thanks for your answer. I think I do see where you are coming from now, although I don't see things as you do.
I don't know you, undead_rat. You may be doing things like these already. I'm just thinking that helping out might help the overall situation, in small ways, and maybe give you an occasional break from focusing on the horrible things that may happen.
Even if those things do happen, it's a kindness to help people and the planet in the meantime.
It puts the coming tribulations into context, and that context is the Last Days of the Earth.
I am about at the end of my days, maybe another ten years if lucky, and I will not live to see the world be destroyed. My generation has created a horrible trap that the world's present children and young adults find themselves caught in.
I think that they deserve to know what is happening to them and why.
What horrible trap? There has been so much quality of human life.
"We're now on number so-and-so, which means the next pope will be Petrus Romanus." I've been hearing this since 1978, when the newly elected pope was JP2, and in every subsequent pontificate. @undead_rat, I fear you're being taken for a ride.
So what’s the track record on the predictions for all the other popes?
If memory serves it's really good on the ones between its alleged date of writing and date of "discovery" but kind of shit after that. But maybe I'm thinking of a different false prophecy.
No, you're not thinking of a different prophecy. That's the one.
For added comfort, the College of Cardinals could refuse to elect anyone with the baptismal or religious name of Peter?
Too late! It already happened, as long ago as 983. Pietro Canipanova, upon his election, announced that out of respect for St. Peter, he wouldn't use his own baptismal name. Instead, he chose to be known as John XIV.
"We're now on number so-and-so, which means the next pope will be Petrus Romanus." I've been hearing this since 1978, when the newly elected pope was JP2, and in every subsequent pontificate. @undead_rat, I fear you're being taken for a ride.
I find it hard to believe that you have been hearing the "Petrus Romanus" prediction for the next pope since 1978. But due to the 1624 combining of the last two mottoes, you have certainly been hearing it since 2013.
When Francis was elected then, the Prophecy appeared to have failed, since he has absolutely no connection to the "Petrus Romanus" title. As I have pointed out, in the original 1595 version, the prediction for Pope Francis does not contain that title.
If memory serves it's really good on the ones between its alleged date of writing and date of "discovery" but kind of shit after that. But maybe I'm thinking of a different prophecy.
No, you're not thinking of a different prophecy. That's the one.
Fr. Wion's attribution of these predictions to St. Malachy was a ruse to avoid being put on trial by the Roman Inquisition. He used a papal history published by Panvinius in 1557 as a reference for composing mottoes. Those predictions prior to 1590 were very accurate because they were made after the fact. That finding does not necessarily invalidate the remaining 39 which must stand or fall on their own merits.
The prediction for Francis is risky one, as was "Aquila rapax" and "Religio depopulata."
The prophecy will stand or fall on its outcome.
Let's hope that it falls, and that Pope Francis remains as Pope for a long time.
But due to the 1624 combining of the last two mottoes, you have certainly been hearing it since 2013.
There has always been disagreement about where the break comes between one prophecy and the next, and consequently about the total number of prophecies. There is no single, unchallengeably "true" number.
Fr. Wion's attribution of these predictions to St. Malachy was a ruse to avoid being put on trial by the Roman Inquisition. He used a papal history published by Panvinius in 1557 as a reference for composing mottoes. Those predictions prior to 1590 were very accurate because they were made after the fact.
Exactly. He fooled a lot of gullible people. And after all these years, he still is fooling a lot of gullible people.
"We're now on number so-and-so, which means the next pope will be Petrus Romanus." I've been hearing this since 1978, when the newly elected pope was JP2, and in every subsequent pontificate. @undead_rat, I fear you're being taken for a ride.
I find it hard to believe...
Methinks thou dost complain too much about other people posting things you find hard to believe...
I first heard about Petrus Romanus in 1958. Every time there is a papal election the prophecies get trotted out. Obviously Pius XII had heard about Pastor Angelicus before 1939 and according to you, and this I do not doubt, Pius X was aware that the next pope after him would have the appelation Religio depopulata .If they were aware of the name of the next pope it is impossible to believe that they hadn't read the 'prophecies' right to the end.
There are certain of the titles which you mention regularly such as Aquila rapax but those who are really keen on the prophecies can point to something in every pontificate,which links in e.g. Lumen in coelo for Leo XIII was the passage of Haley's comet during his reign.
I appreciate your wish to make people know that the Day of Judgement is coming soon. Christianity in its standard message tells us to prepare for the day of God's coming.
Every Mass in the Roman rite contains the prayer
'May we be always free from sin and safe from all distress,as we await the blessed hope and the coming of our Saviour,Jesus Christ'.
Fr. Wion's attribution of these predictions to St. Malachy was a ruse to avoid being put on trial by the Roman Inquisition. He used a papal history published by Panvinius in 1557 as a reference for composing mottoes. Those predictions prior to 1590 were very accurate because they were made after the fact.
There has always been disagreement about where the break comes between one prophecy and the next, and consequently about the total number of prophecies. There is no single, unchallengeably "true" number.
In Wion's original list of mottoes the paragraph structure is clear. He made 113 predictions.
In Messingham's republication in 1624 the paragraph structure is also clear, and the number of mottoes has been reduced to 112. Every subsequent analyst used Messingham's version. Even Fr. O'Brien, who had access to Wion's LIGNUM VITAE, followed Messingham's lead. O"Brien did prove that St. Malachy did not author the predictions. I have assumed that
Fr. Wion was the author and that his original contains the correct number of predictions which is 113.
The "disgreement" that you cite is about which version to use. Every analyst that I am aware of agrees that the motto, "Gloria olivae" applies to Benedict XVI. Going by Wion's original, the next prediction, the one applies to Pope Francis, is: In psecutione. extrema S.R.E. sedebit.
I first heard about Petrus Romanus in 1958. Every time there is a papal election the prophecies get trotted out.
There are certain of the titles which you mention regularly such as Aquila rapax but those who are really keen on the prophecies can point to something in every pontificate,which links in e.g. Lumen in coelo for Leo XIII was the passage of Haley's comet during his reign.
OK, but in 1958 I do not think that anyone was saying that the very next pope would be "Petrus Romanus." That did not happen until 2013, and it was an incorrect postulation then due to the fact that everyone was using a shortened version of the Prophecy.
I chose to use two use two predictions that were unlikely to be fulfilled rather than go through the entire list. I regard most of the mottoes as no more that "filler" between the more important ones. "Pastor angelicus" could be regarded as having come true for almost any pope, but the same cannot be said of the two mottoes I cited.
BTW, I stand corrected in regard to Pope Pius XII. I reviewed my sources and must admit that there is no proof that he is the one who chose the film's title or even that he approved that choice.
thank you,@undead_rat, for acknowledging that Pius XII did not himself choose the title Pastor angelicus,even though he must have been aware of its significance and relationship to his pontificate.
Before the end of the pontificate of de labore solis (JP2) it was postulated that gloria olivae referred to a pope of Jewish origin. The best known cardinal of Jewish origin at that time was Cardinal Lustiger of Paris,but he died before JP2,so that put that possibility aside.
What is important is that we focus on making our lives the best we can so that when we do come before the 'judex tremendus' (dreadful judge) we will have something positive to say and to thank God for.
I chose to use two use two predictions that were unlikely to be fulfilled rather than go through the entire list. I regard most of the mottoes as no more that "filler" between the more important ones. "Pastor angelicus" could be regarded as having come true for almost any pope, but the same cannot be said of the two mottoes I cited.
What you’re doing is practically the definition of cherry-picking.
And even so, the cherries are pretty sour. The Russians and the Germans used eagles as symbols too, and nobody looks back at WWI and thinks “religion destroyed” is a meaningful description.
Dave, as I have pointed out before, "depopulata" is not "destroyed." That word is "diruetur" which occurs in number 113. Why to you continue to make this misrepresentation?
What is important is that we focus on making our lives the best we can so that when we do come before the 'judex tremendus' (dreadful judge) we will have something positive to say and to thank God for.
Dave, as I have pointed out before, "depopulata" is not "destroyed." That word is "diruetur" which occurs in number 113. Why to you continue to make this misrepresentation?
Because it's not a misrepresentation; Latin words don't have a unique one-to-one mapping to English words. From the Wiktionary entry for depopulatus:
"Cherry" picking" would be to pick out predictions that would be easy to fulfill. To select unlikely mottoes is the exact opposite.
Nonsense. Cherry-picking is choosing the only two for which you think there's actually anything remotely close to a connection to the real world, and conveniently dismissing all the rest as "filler". And choosing the interpretation of a two-word phrase after the fact makes it entirely meaningless as a prediction.
Once again, I stand corrected. The Latin "depopulata" does not translate into the English "depopulate." Thanks for looking it up. I was mislead by Horn and Putnam's analysis in their book PETRUS ROMANUS.
Not sure what you are trying to tell us@undead_rat. The medal you indicate has on the reverse side the words Pastor angelicus 1939-1958 and was prseumably produced after the death of Pius. Did he personally leave instructions for this medal to be struck ?
Not sure what you are trying to tell us @undead_rat. The medal you indicate has on the reverse side the words Pastor Angelicus 1939-1958 and was presumably produced after the death of Pius. Did he personally leave instructions for this medal to be struck ?
I don't know, and it seems that some other popes also used that phrase on their medals.
I wouldn't characterize the Roman Inquisition as "gullible."
If they weren't gullible, how did he manage to fool them, and get away with it?
Wion presented his predictions as a harmless political ploy in the papal election of 1590.
"Ex antiquitate Urbis," or "From the old City," looked as if it were intended to support the election of Wion's friend, Cardinal Simoncelli from Orvieto (the old city.)
Wion said that he had discovered the list of papal predictions hidden in the Vatican archives and left there 400 years earlier by St. Malachy.
He also purported to have enlisted the help of an expert in ancient manuscripts, Fr. Alphonsus Giacon, in interpreting it.
Finally, he buried the predictions in his five volume work, the LIGNUM VITAE, would have been financed by Wion's own Benedictine Order.
Wion thereby insulated himself from the accusation of authoring an end of the world prophecy at the 39th future pope.
I don't understand. You know it's all a fraud, but you choose to believe it's not as well. Superpositioning eh?
And i cannot understand why you do not understand. I have explained why Wion made 74 predictions after the fact and why he had to attribute all of his predictions to St. Malachy. What is so hard to understand about that. How does the necessary but false attribution to St. Malachy prove that the 39 predictions that were not made after the fact have no value?
You may say that none of the 36 papal predictions that have come into play so far have proven the Prophecy valid, but i am not saying that they do. I am only maintaining that none of these 36 has falsified it. If you have one, please present it.
I don't understand. You know it's all a fraud, but you choose to believe it's not as well. Superpositioning eh?
And i cannot understand why you do not understand. I have explained why Wion made 74 predictions after the fact and why he had to attribute all of his predictions to St. Malachy. What is so hard to understand about that. How does the necessary but false attribution to St. Malachy prove that the 39 predictions that were not made after the fact have no value?
You may say that none of the 36 papal predictions that have come into play so far have proven the Prophecy valid, but i am not saying that they do. I am only maintaining that none of these 36 has falsified it. If you have one, please present it.
I cannot understand why you cannot understand why I cannot understand. There's nothing to falsify. I understand that.
I don't understand. You know it's all a fraud, but you choose to believe it's not as well. Superpositioning eh?
And i cannot understand why you do not understand. I have explained why Wion made 74 predictions after the fact and why he had to attribute all of his predictions to St. Malachy. What is so hard to understand about that. How does the necessary but false attribution to St. Malachy prove that the 39 predictions that were not made after the fact have no value?
You may say that none of the 36 papal predictions that have come into play so far have proven the Prophecy valid, but i am not saying that they do. I am only maintaining that none of these 36 has falsified it. If you have one, please present it.
I agree with @Martin54 for a change - how could anything falsify one of these predictions?
I don't understand. You know it's all a fraud, but you choose to believe it's not as well. Superpositioning eh?
And i cannot understand why you do not understand. I have explained why Wion made 74 predictions after the fact and why he had to attribute all of his predictions to St. Malachy. What is so hard to understand about that. How does the necessary but false attribution to St. Malachy prove that the 39 predictions that were not made after the fact have no value?
You may say that none of the 36 papal predictions that have come into play so far have proven the Prophecy valid, but i am not saying that they do. I am only maintaining that none of these 36 has falsified it. If you have one, please present it.
I agree with @Martin54 for a change - how could anything falsify one of these predictions?
What's to disagree with huh? I mean, how would you know that you disagree with me? I'm too 'gnomic', i.e. incoherent, surely?
Not in this bleedin' weather! Couldn't put the wairms to the compost sacks yes'd'y. 't'is Bin Day's Eve and frozen yet. Be days yet yet. I hope the poor we buggers are just dormant in the shed.
't'will be three days AND three noits from the first day of the week, therefore the fourth, which is appropriate fer gaardnin as that's when plaants was made.
I don't understand. You know it's all a fraud, but you choose to believe it's not as well. Superpositioning eh?
And i cannot understand why you do not understand. I have explained why Wion made 74 predictions after the fact and why he had to attribute all of his predictions to St. Malachy. What is so hard to understand about that. How does the necessary but false attribution to St. Malachy prove that the 39 predictions that were not made after the fact have no value?
You may say that none of the 36 papal predictions that have come into play so far have proven the Prophecy valid, but i am not saying that they do. I am only maintaining that none of these 36 has falsified it. If you have one, please present it.
He is saying that Wion produced a whole lot of alleged prophecies and attributed them to someone called Malachy who lived several centuries previously. I you accept that. So, Lie Number 1.
It was not difficult to know who the popes had been since Malachy and Wion. He knew, who they were. To add verisimilitude to his alleged prophecies for the period after his own time, he therefore made sure one could connect the Malachy-Wion ones with the popes in that period, but was alleging that Malachi had foretold them. Lie Number 2.
At the essence of prophecy is the belief that God has revealed something to the prophet, or that the prophet has discerned something of the will of God that the rest of us can't work out. Jesus made it very clear, repeatedly, that God is a God of Truth. But what he claims are prophecies for the period Malachi-Wion aren't prophecies. Lie Number 3.
Wion has therefore shown himself not to be truthful. Therefore, why should anyone believe any of his predictions? That's a strong argument for not believing them.
@undead_rat I accept that you won't agree with the rest of us, but are you now clear why we're more persuaded by what @Martin54 has said than your reply?
If I might go on, this is confirmed by the way the alleged prophecies for the period Wion-today have hardly any bearing at all on the lives or identities of any of the popes in that period. They therefore raise the very strong presumption that the alleged prophet did not have the ability to foretell the future.
You claim that two do fit, and that therefore the one outstanding one that relates to the period after now must be true as well.
That argument doesn't hold water, because two out of 39 would be a pretty feeble hit rate.
The rest of us are saying that we aren't persuaded even by the two which you do claim fit. We don't think they are hits anyway.
IIRC, someone mentioned (earlier in the thread) that Wion was not really believed, or felt to be credible, in his own time.
You are correct.
O'Brien quotes some one as saying that the "learned" of the time (i.e. 1595 or so) knew that
St. Malachy had nothing to do with the writing of the predictions.
As for my alleged attempt at "persuasion," (Enoch) I am not claiming that Wion's prophecy is proven true, only that it has not been proven false.
IIRC, someone mentioned (earlier in the thread) that Wion was not really believed, or felt to be credible, in his own time.
You are correct.
O'Brien quotes some one as saying that the "learned" of the time (i.e. 1595 or so) knew that
St. Malachy had nothing to do with the writing of the predictions.
As for my alleged attempt at "persuasion," (Enoch) I am not claiming that Wion's prophecy is proven true, only that it has not been proven false.
So it's as true as an assertion that there's a unicorn living in a cave under the south pole then...
Comments
I am about at the end of my days, maybe another ten years if lucky, and I will not live to see the world be destroyed. My generation has created a horrible trap that the world's present children and young adults find themselves caught in.
I think that they deserve to know what is happening to them and why.
Thanks for your answer. I think I do see where you are coming from now, although I don't see things as you do.
Thanks from me, too.
If you're ever interested into changing gears once in a while, taking a little break, maybe try some online volunteering for an organization that does some sort of good in the world (Duck Duck Go search)?
There are also click-to-donate sites (like Greater Good), where you click and a company gives a small donation to a cause you care about.
And something as simple as signing a petition at the Petition Site can help, too.
I don't know you, undead_rat. You may be doing things like these already. I'm just thinking that helping out might help the overall situation, in small ways, and maybe give you an occasional break from focusing on the horrible things that may happen.
Even if those things do happen, it's a kindness to help people and the planet in the meantime.
What horrible trap? There has been so much quality of human life.
I find it hard to believe that you have been hearing the "Petrus Romanus" prediction for the next pope since 1978. But due to the 1624 combining of the last two mottoes, you have certainly been hearing it since 2013.
When Francis was elected then, the Prophecy appeared to have failed, since he has absolutely no connection to the "Petrus Romanus" title. As I have pointed out, in the original 1595 version, the prediction for Pope Francis does not contain that title.
Fr. Wion's attribution of these predictions to St. Malachy was a ruse to avoid being put on trial by the Roman Inquisition. He used a papal history published by Panvinius in 1557 as a reference for composing mottoes. Those predictions prior to 1590 were very accurate because they were made after the fact. That finding does not necessarily invalidate the remaining 39 which must stand or fall on their own merits.
The prediction for Francis is risky one, as was "Aquila rapax" and "Religio depopulata."
The prophecy will stand or fall on its outcome.
Let's hope that it falls, and that Pope Francis remains as Pope for a long time.
Methinks thou dost complain too much about other people posting things you find hard to believe...
There are certain of the titles which you mention regularly such as Aquila rapax but those who are really keen on the prophecies can point to something in every pontificate,which links in e.g. Lumen in coelo for Leo XIII was the passage of Haley's comet during his reign.
I appreciate your wish to make people know that the Day of Judgement is coming soon. Christianity in its standard message tells us to prepare for the day of God's coming.
Every Mass in the Roman rite contains the prayer
'May we be always free from sin and safe from all distress,as we await the blessed hope and the coming of our Saviour,Jesus Christ'.
What we don't know
Scarcely predictions if made after the event!
In Wion's original list of mottoes the paragraph structure is clear. He made 113 predictions.
In Messingham's republication in 1624 the paragraph structure is also clear, and the number of mottoes has been reduced to 112. Every subsequent analyst used Messingham's version. Even Fr. O'Brien, who had access to Wion's LIGNUM VITAE, followed Messingham's lead. O"Brien did prove that St. Malachy did not author the predictions. I have assumed that
Fr. Wion was the author and that his original contains the correct number of predictions which is 113.
The "disgreement" that you cite is about which version to use. Every analyst that I am aware of agrees that the motto, "Gloria olivae" applies to Benedict XVI. Going by Wion's original, the next prediction, the one applies to Pope Francis, is:
In psecutione. extrema S.R.E. sedebit.
I chose to use two use two predictions that were unlikely to be fulfilled rather than go through the entire list. I regard most of the mottoes as no more that "filler" between the more important ones. "Pastor angelicus" could be regarded as having come true for almost any pope, but the same cannot be said of the two mottoes I cited.
BTW, I stand corrected in regard to Pope Pius XII. I reviewed my sources and must admit that there is no proof that he is the one who chose the film's title or even that he approved that choice.
Before the end of the pontificate of de labore solis (JP2) it was postulated that gloria olivae referred to a pope of Jewish origin. The best known cardinal of Jewish origin at that time was Cardinal Lustiger of Paris,but he died before JP2,so that put that possibility aside.
What is important is that we focus on making our lives the best we can so that when we do come before the 'judex tremendus' (dreadful judge) we will have something positive to say and to thank God for.
And even so, the cherries are pretty sour. The Russians and the Germans used eagles as symbols too, and nobody looks back at WWI and thinks “religion destroyed” is a meaningful description.
This.
https://kupindo.com/Inostranstvo/52966217_Pope-Pius-XII-Pastor-angelicus
I don't know, and it seems that some other popes also used that phrase on their medals.
"Ex antiquitate Urbis," or "From the old City," looked as if it were intended to support the election of Wion's friend, Cardinal Simoncelli from Orvieto (the old city.)
Wion said that he had discovered the list of papal predictions hidden in the Vatican archives and left there 400 years earlier by St. Malachy.
He also purported to have enlisted the help of an expert in ancient manuscripts, Fr. Alphonsus Giacon, in interpreting it.
Finally, he buried the predictions in his five volume work, the LIGNUM VITAE, would have been financed by Wion's own Benedictine Order.
Wion thereby insulated himself from the accusation of authoring an end of the world prophecy at the 39th future pope.
Why does the sea rush the shore?
Don't they know it's the end of the world?
The prophecies are coming true, once more.
Reading your adapted lyrics, the name of the pop singer Dion (not Celine) popped into my head. I checked, and he did cover it (SecondHandSongs).
He was still something of a big deal when I was a kid, so {fan-girl swoon}.
And i cannot understand why you do not understand. I have explained why Wion made 74 predictions after the fact and why he had to attribute all of his predictions to St. Malachy. What is so hard to understand about that. How does the necessary but false attribution to St. Malachy prove that the 39 predictions that were not made after the fact have no value?
You may say that none of the 36 papal predictions that have come into play so far have proven the Prophecy valid, but i am not saying that they do. I am only maintaining that none of these 36 has falsified it. If you have one, please present it.
I cannot understand why you cannot understand why I cannot understand. There's nothing to falsify. I understand that.
I agree with @Martin54 for a change - how could anything falsify one of these predictions?
What's to disagree with huh? I mean, how would you know that you disagree with me? I'm too 'gnomic', i.e. incoherent, surely?
Martin, you sound like a good imitation of Ben the gardener from "The Secret Garden". (Not a criticism.)
Oh, and you did mention being "gnomic"--which has other meanings, I know.
We'em got Winch and Sven Leaf Erikson. An' Henrietta. And a coupla much put upon putti.
Surely 't'is Epiphanytide still yet?! 'cept by Candlemas reckernin. But not Ash Wednesday. And that.
He is saying that Wion produced a whole lot of alleged prophecies and attributed them to someone called Malachy who lived several centuries previously. I you accept that. So, Lie Number 1.
It was not difficult to know who the popes had been since Malachy and Wion. He knew, who they were. To add verisimilitude to his alleged prophecies for the period after his own time, he therefore made sure one could connect the Malachy-Wion ones with the popes in that period, but was alleging that Malachi had foretold them. Lie Number 2.
At the essence of prophecy is the belief that God has revealed something to the prophet, or that the prophet has discerned something of the will of God that the rest of us can't work out. Jesus made it very clear, repeatedly, that God is a God of Truth. But what he claims are prophecies for the period Malachi-Wion aren't prophecies. Lie Number 3.
Wion has therefore shown himself not to be truthful. Therefore, why should anyone believe any of his predictions? That's a strong argument for not believing them.
@undead_rat I accept that you won't agree with the rest of us, but are you now clear why we're more persuaded by what @Martin54 has said than your reply?
If I might go on, this is confirmed by the way the alleged prophecies for the period Wion-today have hardly any bearing at all on the lives or identities of any of the popes in that period. They therefore raise the very strong presumption that the alleged prophet did not have the ability to foretell the future.
You claim that two do fit, and that therefore the one outstanding one that relates to the period after now must be true as well.
That argument doesn't hold water, because two out of 39 would be a pretty feeble hit rate.
The rest of us are saying that we aren't persuaded even by the two which you do claim fit. We don't think they are hits anyway.
I suspect he was a bit of a fruitloop, who perhaps had discovered some sort of organic substance to...er...help him with his predictions.
O'Brien quotes some one as saying that the "learned" of the time (i.e. 1595 or so) knew that
St. Malachy had nothing to do with the writing of the predictions.
As for my alleged attempt at "persuasion," (Enoch) I am not claiming that Wion's prophecy is proven true, only that it has not been proven false.
So it's as true as an assertion that there's a unicorn living in a cave under the south pole then...