The news that Jesus is NOT the son of God

How would you react to that? I think I would be sick to the stomach if the news were true.
I've got all my money on it. I'm going for broke. If he isn't I feel life is meaningless. Guys like Trump suddenly have credibility. (Apparently he thinks only losers get crucified)
All of us who struggle in this life, who feel closer to losers than winners, will be heart broken. Jesus represents the short guy in this life. The one who doesn't quite cut the mustard.
To lose the Christian message, is to lose everything.
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Comments

  • How do you know that Jesus IS the Son of God? And what do you understand by that term, anyway? Or by the term *Christian message*?

    Not being snarky - just trying to establish a possible basis for discussion! :wink:

  • Don’t stop there. Please continue to tell us what/how we should feel.

    I’ll make some popcorn.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 19
    @Bill_Noble - that's not fair, assuming you're referring to the OP.

    @Insanely humble has thrown a perfectly reasonable question into the ring, and presumably would like US to discuss it.

  • @Insanely, a couple of quick questions, if I may, about the "news", to quote your own words in the thread title. First, where would you expect to hear/see this news? From a man in a clerical collar standing in a pulpit? From the Nine O'Clock News? From some anonymous poster on a little-known website?

    Second, how would you know whether to believe it or not?
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 19
    I thought the word *news* was being used hypothetically, as a basis for some sort of discussion, which is why I asked the OPer to elaborate.
  • Strikes me differently. Serious question about divinity (nothing wrong with that) or just trying to get a rise by tooting a few dog whistles like Trump? Trump gets credibility? Huh? What does he have to do it?

    Weird.
  • Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Don’t stop there. Please continue to tell us what/how we should feel.

    I’ll make some popcorn.

    So this is the kind of response I can expect here.
  • How do you know that Jesus IS the Son of God? And what do you understand by that term, anyway? Or by the term *Christian message*?

    Not being snarky - just trying to establish a possible basis for discussion! :wink:

    Pedantic sir? Or just being a pain for fun?
  • Like @Ray Sunshine, I have difficulty with the practical aspects - how do I acquire this "news", and why do I believe it? As I see it, the only way I could get reasonable proof that my faith is wrong is if I die, then something unexpected happens.

    And in that case, how I react is quite strongly dependent on what happens then...
  • @Insanely, a couple of quick questions, if I may, about the "news", to quote your own words in the thread title. First, where would you expect to hear/see this news? From a man in a clerical collar standing in a pulpit? From the Nine O'Clock News? From some anonymous poster on a little-known website?

    Second, how would you know whether to believe it or not?

    More pedantic responses. Roll with flow sir. Use your imag.
  • Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Don’t stop there. Please continue to tell us what/how we should feel.

    I’ll make some popcorn.

    So this is the kind of response I can expect here.

    Dunno. I’m not a forum regular.
  • I'm testing the waters here as well as setting a genuine topic. I've got a sense of humour too but it's likely to get me banned.
  • I'm testing the waters here as well as setting a genuine topic. I've got a sense of humour too but it's likely to get me banned.

    You're not engaging with people, just calling them names. That's not the way to get genuine discussion on your topic going.
  • So a lot members are psuedo intellectuals with overblown egos? Tell me I'm wrong.
  • I'm testing the waters here as well as setting a genuine topic. I've got a sense of humour too but it's likely to get me banned.

    Okay. Let’s do a reset.

    “He’s not the Son of God, He’s a very naughty boy.”

  • Bill_Noble wrote: »
    I'm testing the waters here as well as setting a genuine topic. I've got a sense of humour too but it's likely to get me banned.

    Okay. Let’s do a reset.

    “He’s not the Son of God, He’s a very naughty boy.”

    Whare do press ROFL? Sorry I mean vomit.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    I'm testing the waters here as well as setting a genuine topic. I've got a sense of humour too but it's likely to get me banned.

    You're not engaging with people, just calling them names. That's not the way to get genuine discussion on your topic going.

    The first 3 people revealed their intentions quite soon. I suspect I'm pretty accurate in assessment.
  • And I did like Monty Python. The real one . Not the fake imitations here.
  • Ray SunshineRay Sunshine Shipmate
    edited February 19
    More pedantic responses. Roll with flow sir. Use your imag.

    I'm sorry you dismissed my two questions as mere pedantry. I don't see how we can begin to discuss your OP until we fully understand what it is you're asking. Telling me to "use my imagination" makes it more obscure, not clearer.
  • So basically this is not a forum to share ones feelings on their faith, otherwise they will be pedanticised for not being precise enough. " Show me da facts bro! I'm a facts man"
  • Oh dear God save us.
  • Just an aside...
    Does anyone think the ship of fools formula is over cooked?
    I think more authentic humour comes naturally from serious forums. The Trump jokes are overcooked for sure.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Oh dear God save us.

    That's better
  • I could go on forever .............and I will...
  • DNFTT
  • @Insanely humble , on the Adam & Eve thread your comments were cool, calm, and rational. They made a lot of sense. What has gone wrong in the meantime?
  • Everyone wants to be the class clown. Does that work though? Someone has to be serious.
  • @Insanely humble , on the Adam & Eve thread your comments were cool, calm, and rational. They made a lot of sense. What has gone wrong in the meantime?

    Three consecutive smart alec posts triggered me here I'm afraid. And I'm yet to believe they were sincere.
  • So basically this is not a forum to share ones feelings on their faith, otherwise they will be pedanticised for not being precise enough. " Show me da facts bro! I'm a facts man"

    Whoa, slow down. People are just trying to clarify where you're coming from.

    So, for the record, I believe:
    1. Jesus of Nazareth was The Son of God (note the capitals)
    2. He died by crucifixion
    3. He came back to life again.

    To a very large extent number 1. is informed by number 3.

    So, as a suggestion, here's how I frame the hypothetical:
    Suppose a 1st century tomb in Palestine that had lay underdisturbed for two millennia was found. In it was the body of a crucifixion victim aged about 30 when he died. By some DNA, or other means (and this is the problematic bit) it was shown that this was the body of Jesus of Nazareth.
    What then?


    For me and many (though not all) Christians that would be the end of my Christian Faith. A belief in physical resurrection is the cornerstone for me.

    Not all feel this way.

    I could write a lot more. I won't just yet. I'm just hoping this helps get the discussion going...

    AFZ
  • mousethief wrote: »

    My sense of déjà vu is a lot more recent.
  • Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Strikes me differently. Serious question about divinity (nothing wrong with that) or just trying to get a rise by tooting a few dog whistles like Trump? Trump gets credibility? Huh? What does he have to do it?

    Weird.

    So you are accusing me of starting a troll like thread?
    I am 100% sincere. I am a natural born worry wart. I worry whether Jesus is really the son of God. Maybe the atheists are right and God doesn't exist. Doubt. I experience daily doubt. I try to base my life on God's existence.
    Dostoyevsky said if there is no God, then anything is permissable. Hitler Stalin and other mass murderers get off Scot free. That doesn't make sense. I cling to a belief in Jesus Christ, even if it makes me look foolish.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »

    My sense of déjà vu is a lot more recent.

    But this is the classic. Also where my wife gets to be the Prime Bully and Queen of Hell, so it brings back fond memories.
  • Insanely humbleInsanely humble Shipmate
    edited February 19
    So basically this is not a forum to share ones feelings on their faith, otherwise they will be pedanticised for not being precise enough. " Show me da facts bro! I'm a facts man"

    Whoa, slow down. People are just trying to clarify where you're coming from.

    So, for the record, I believe:
    1. Jesus of Nazareth was The Son of God (note the capitals)
    2. He died by crucifixion
    3. He came back to life again.

    To a very large extent number 1. is informed by number 3.

    So, as a suggestion, here's how I frame the hypothetical:
    Suppose a 1st century tomb in Palestine that had lay underdisturbed for two millennia was found. In it was the body of a crucifixion victim aged about 30 when he died. By some DNA, or other means (and this is the problematic bit) it was shown that this was the body of Jesus of Nazareth.
    What then?


    For me and many (though not all) Christians that would be the end of my Christian Faith. A belief in physical resurrection is the cornerstone for me.

    Not all feel this way.

    I could write a lot more. I won't just yet. I'm just hoping this helps get the discussion going...

    AFZ

    I wish you had posted earlier. I like the tone of your writing.
    Of course ressurection is a key point. Though I tend not to worry about the science too much.
    Just Christianity has been such a big part of my life.
    If atheism is true, I may as well go out and rob a bank now. Who cares, right?

    Removed duplicate quotes. BroJames, Purgatory Host
  • Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Strikes me differently. Serious question about divinity (nothing wrong with that) or just trying to get a rise by tooting a few dog whistles like Trump? Trump gets credibility? Huh? What does he have to do it?

    Weird.

    So you are accusing me of starting a troll like thread?
    I am 100% sincere. I am a natural born worry wart. I worry whether Jesus is really the son of God. Maybe the atheists are right and God doesn't exist. Doubt. I experience daily doubt. I try to base my life on God's existence.
    Dostoyevsky said if there is no God, then anything is permissable. Hitler Stalin and other mass murderers get off Scot free. That doesn't make sense. I cling to a belief in Jesus Christ, even if it makes me look foolish.

    Okay, let’s start with your last point. What does your faith mean to you? What is it about it that keeps you holding on in spite of the fact that you feel that it makes you look foolish?

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited February 19
    Well, the opposite of faith isn't doubt; it's certainty. Faith and doubt have to exist in a tension. That's why we have a word for it seperate from our word for knowledge. In some languages (French for example) the word for 'believe' also is the word for 'think', and we can do this in English too:

    "The train leaves at 11am, I believe".

    However, I do not know of any language where the verb for "know" is interchangeable with that for "believe".

    I've got to a point where my interest in propositional statements like "Jesus is the Son of God" is limited. My response to the one who boldly insists it is so is the same as to the one who boldly insists it is not: "you don't know that".

    God, Heaven and Hell are not going to pop into existence to make me or you feel better about Stalin.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    I've got to a point where my interest in propositional statements like "Jesus is the Son of God" is limited. My response to the one who boldly insists it is so is the same as to the one who boldly insists it is not: "you don't know that".

    My response would be, 'Of course I don't "know" that, but I don't "know" much of anything. It's all belief, most of it based entirely on the words of others. So now what?'
  • Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Strikes me differently. Serious question about divinity (nothing wrong with that) or just trying to get a rise by tooting a few dog whistles like Trump? Trump gets credibility? Huh? What does he have to do it?

    Weird.

    So you are accusing me of starting a troll like thread?
    I am 100% sincere. I am a natural born worry wart. I worry whether Jesus is really the son of God. Maybe the atheists are right and God doesn't exist. Doubt. I experience daily doubt. I try to base my life on God's existence.
    Dostoyevsky said if there is no God, then anything is permissable. Hitler Stalin and other mass murderers get off Scot free. That doesn't make sense. I cling to a belief in Jesus Christ, even if it makes me look foolish.

    Okay, let’s start with your last point. What does your faith mean to you? What is it about it that keeps you holding on in spite of the fact that you feel that it makes you look foolish?

    Jesus represents love. By love I mean openness, vulnerability, kindness, integrity, being a good loser, ...........all the attributes that are often not needed to succeed in life.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    I've got to a point where my interest in propositional statements like "Jesus is the Son of God" is limited. My response to the one who boldly insists it is so is the same as to the one who boldly insists it is not: "you don't know that".

    My response would be, 'Of course I don't "know" that, but I don't "know" much of anything. It's all belief, most of it based entirely on the words of others. So now what?'

    Basis and level of confidence. Mine for religious propositions are "not much" for both.
  • mousethief wrote: »

    Maybe you have. But it wasn't me.
  • mousethief wrote: »

    Maybe you have. But it wasn't me.

    No, I wouldn't accuse even you of being ThomasDF. He is sui generis.
  • Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Strikes me differently. Serious question about divinity (nothing wrong with that) or just trying to get a rise by tooting a few dog whistles like Trump? Trump gets credibility? Huh? What does he have to do it?

    Weird.

    So you are accusing me of starting a troll like thread?
    I am 100% sincere. I am a natural born worry wart. I worry whether Jesus is really the son of God. Maybe the atheists are right and God doesn't exist. Doubt. I experience daily doubt. I try to base my life on God's existence.
    Dostoyevsky said if there is no God, then anything is permissable. Hitler Stalin and other mass murderers get off Scot free. That doesn't make sense. I cling to a belief in Jesus Christ, even if it makes me look foolish.

    Okay, let’s start with your last point. What does your faith mean to you? What is it about it that keeps you holding on in spite of the fact that you feel that it makes you look foolish?

    Jesus represents love. By love I mean openness, vulnerability, kindness, integrity, being a good loser, ...........all the attributes that are often not needed to succeed in life.

    I was raised in a loving family. A loving Christian family. My parents were near saints. I believe in love. Because I have experienced love. And I believe that love comes from Jesus Christ originally. Who is God.
    All love comes from God. If we don't believe in God , we don't believe in love.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »

    Maybe you have. But it wasn't me.

    No, I wouldn't accuse even you of being ThomasDF. He is sui generis.

    Even you. Are you one of the cute mods here?
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 19
    How do you know that Jesus IS the Son of God? And what do you understand by that term, anyway? Or by the term *Christian message*?

    Not being snarky - just trying to establish a possible basis for discussion! :wink:

    Pedantic sir? Or just being a pain for fun?

    Neither.

    They were genuine questions. Why should you suppose otherwise?
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    I've got to a point where my interest in propositional statements like "Jesus is the Son of God" is limited. My response to the one who boldly insists it is so is the same as to the one who boldly insists it is not: "you don't know that".

    My response would be, 'Of course I don't "know" that, but I don't "know" much of anything. It's all belief, most of it based entirely on the words of others. So now what?'

    Basis and level of confidence. Mine for religious propositions are "not much" for both.

    We could do a whole thread on epistemology. For me, in short, it's not like all the things I could possibly believe are laid out on a conveyor belt, and I look at each one and say, "So what's the evidence for this one?" They are more interconnected than that, like a web, and aren't all on the "immediately empirically verifiable" outer level of the web. But this takes us far afield, perhaps.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    If we don't believe in God , we don't believe in love.

    I can absolutely tell you that you are as wrong as a wrong thing there. I know some incredibly loving atheists. And I know my own ability to love, weak or strong as it may be, is unconnected to my belief in God, strong or weak as that may be.

  • This.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Several posters seem to need reminding of the Purgatory guidelines
    …Purgatory is our serious discussion space – where theological, ethical, political, social and cultural issues are discussed from a Christian perspective. All views are welcome – orthodox, unorthodox, radical or just plain bizarre – so long as you can stand being challenged. Before you jump into the fray, take a look at these guidelines for posting.

    1. No personal attacks

    2. Expect to be disagreed with!

    3. Be courteous in your debating style
    If you think a post is not up for serious discussion, don’t join in. If you think someone is abusing/ignoring the rules, don’t join in. PM a host instead.

    BroJames, Purgatory Host
  • BroJames wrote: »
    Several posters seem to need reminding of the Purgatory guidelines
    …Purgatory is our serious discussion space – where theological, ethical, political, social and cultural issues are discussed from a Christian perspective. All views are welcome – orthodox, unorthodox, radical or just plain bizarre – so long as you can stand being challenged. Before you jump into the fray, take a look at these guidelines for posting.

    1. No personal attacks

    2. Expect to be disagreed with!

    3. Be courteous in your debating style
    If you think a post is not up for serious discussion, don’t join in. If you think someone is abusing/ignoring the rules, don’t join in. PM a host instead.

    BroJames, Purgatory Host

    Thank you
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    If we don't believe in God , we don't believe in love.

    I can absolutely tell you that you are as wrong as a wrong thing there. I know some incredibly loving atheists. And I know my own ability to love, weak or strong as it may be, is unconnected to my belief in God, strong or weak as that may be.

    So do I know loving atheists. My wife is a loving agnostic too.
    But the source of that love? Where does it come from? The essence comes from a higher power, God. A God we don't understand yet. Divine intelligence.
This discussion has been closed.