That says he told his parents he wanted to transition - not the school - they chose to go with that, and he is now on the list for NHS gender services.
Which doesn’t seem to be what you originally asserted re schools.
Wow, that professional journal of Studies in Gender and Sexuality. the Daily Mail, with an anonymous whistleblower. Is this the evidence that schools frequently shut parents out, and also professionals?
The daily mail article seems to rely heavily on the testimony of one teacher who seems to think autism somehow invalidates a trans identity. It may be that more people with autism are trans than are not, I don’t see why that is a problem.
17 pupils in a school is mentioned a lot, but the total number of pupils is not - so if this is a secondary school with, say, 1000 pupils - I would not find that number at all surprising. Whereas as if it is the size of the secondary I went to (200) then that percentage would seem high.
The daily mail and spectator articles report that teachers are advised not to out children who disclose worries about gender to their parents. This seems reasonable to me, and is a different thing entirely to whether they transition at that point. Issues like this are strongly affected by Gillick competence, too.
I heard a discussion on Women's Hour (BBC) a yesterday in which the speaker who was supportive of young people transitioning stated that schools could accommodate that without informing parents as part of safeguarding the children. The speaker from the other side, and the presenter, were somewhat taken aback by this, but the trans supporter was adamant.
Whether this happens or not, or if it does whether it happens frequently, I don't know, but there is clearly one person who thinks it should.
That's not what chukovsky said, which was that schools are frequently telling kids to transition without parental knowledge or professional help. It also puzzles me, how do you transition without telling parents, assuming you live with them? Dad, I'm living as a girl for reasons entirely disconnected from trans, so just ignore.
If you search re the UK, there's quite a few links advising this. My search was "schools uk not telling parents re trans" on startpage.com. I also heard the topic discussed on their BBC Radio 4 within the past week which may be the same one referenced above.
I get the push to empower people, but dependent children are just that: dependent. This must be recognized.
Daily Mail: "after consulting with the child's parents, the school agreed to change the child's name to a gender neutral one". Hang on, I thought this was supposed to demonstrate schools not consulting with parents?
I heard a discussion on Women's Hour (BBC) a yesterday in which the speaker who was supportive of young people transitioning stated that schools could accommodate that without informing parents as part of safeguarding the children. The speaker from the other side, and the presenter, were somewhat taken aback by this, but the trans supporter was adamant.
Whether this happens or not, or if it does whether it happens frequently, I don't know, but there is clearly one person who thinks it should.
That's not what chukovsky said, which was that schools are frequently telling kids to transition without parental knowledge or professional help. It also puzzles me, how do you transition without telling parents, assuming you live with them? Dad, I'm living as a girl for reasons entirely disconnected from trans, so just ignore.
If you search re the UK, there's quite a few links advising this. My search was "schools uk not telling parents re trans" on startpage.com. I also heard the topic discussed on their BBC Radio 4 within the past week which may be the same one referenced above.
I get the push to empower people, but dependent children are just that: dependent. This must be recognized.
So some parents have trans kids, without knowing it? What do the kids do, change clothes at school? As mentioned above, it does happen with parents who are hostile, and possibly dangerous to the child.
The daily mail article seems to rely heavily on the testimony of one teacher who seems to think autism somehow invalidates a trans identity. It may be that more people with autism are trans than are not, I don’t see why that is a problem.
17 pupils in a school is mentioned a lot, but the total number of pupils is not - so if this is a secondary school with, say, 1000 pupils - I would not find that number at all surprising. Whereas as if it is the size of the secondary I went to (200) then that percentage would seem high.
The daily mail and spectator articles report that teachers are advised not to out children who disclose worries about gender to their parents. This seems reasonable to me, and is a different thing entirely to whether they transition at that point. Issues like this are strongly affected by Gillick competence, too.
Austism and transgender. If there is a link it doesn't mean problem, it means association. The way I've heard it, it is that some young people on the autism spectrum have social relationship difficulties, trend toward obsessional thinking, and may have some body perception issues.
I understand also that there is desire to understand the tremendous increase in requests for transgender therapies, with theories put forth on various sides of it, with the push-back theory being one of social influence. I expect that, like the ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) controversy which seems to have levelled out some, that explanations are too over-simplified; we cannot explain all child achievement, conduct and behaviour problems via ADHD and treat them all with medication. Nor should all who express a wish to change gender be treated medically. Watchful waiting, proper assessment and if necessary, treatment of concurrent disorders of mood, and support through child and teen development years.
I heard a discussion on Women's Hour (BBC) a yesterday in which the speaker who was supportive of young people transitioning stated that schools could accommodate that without informing parents as part of safeguarding the children. The speaker from the other side, and the presenter, were somewhat taken aback by this, but the trans supporter was adamant.
Whether this happens or not, or if it does whether it happens frequently, I don't know, but there is clearly one person who thinks it should.
That's not what chukovsky said, which was that schools are frequently telling kids to transition without parental knowledge or professional help. It also puzzles me, how do you transition without telling parents, assuming you live with them? Dad, I'm living as a girl for reasons entirely disconnected from trans, so just ignore.
If you search re the UK, there's quite a few links advising this. My search was "schools uk not telling parents re trans" on startpage.com. I also heard the topic discussed on their BBC Radio 4 within the past week which may be the same one referenced above.
I get the push to empower people, but dependent children are just that: dependent. This must be recognized.
So some parents have trans kids, without knowing it? What do the kids do, change clothes at school? As mentioned above, it does happen with parents who are hostile, and possibly dangerous to the child.
Sure parents can be angry and hostile with their children. The children may be up to all sorts of things: substance use, sexual experimentation, stealing, conflicts with others their ages and adults. Here they get into criminal gangs and parents don't know.
If the parents are "dangerous" the schools have a responsibility to call Child Protection which covers here everyone under age 16.
Changing clothes? Not necessary, we see kids wearing basically whatever they wish to school, including what looks like pyjamas to me. The general rule appears to me that you can't wear hats or hoods up because teachers need to know who is who. There was a trend a little while ago for kool-aid dyed hair (green - lime flavour is not recommended, but cherry red is a pretty good colour) and various forms of exaggerated make-up. I found what was described as 'emo' was pretty diverse.
Who said that all kids should be treated medically? Hint, social transition isn't medical. "Most treatments at this stage are psychological not medical or surgical", (NHS website).
Who said that all kids should be treated medically? Hint, social transition isn't medical. "Most treatments at this stage are psychological not medical or surgical", (NHS website).
They get offered hormones very quickly here. The intakes are by social workers, next stop nurse practitioner who sends to a doctor. Then it's medications, support groups headed by the social workers and nurses who already have the young person down the trail towards transition. I wish I was making it up.
It is better in some provinces where there's something thorough. But the general wait for psychiatry is 7 months just now where I am, unless crisis and you go to hospital emergency, see a resident (in training psychiatrist) after very long wait, often 8+ hours. You basically don't get mental health talking therapy of any kind unless you pay out of pocket, ranging from about $180/hour or if your workplace benefits offer some coverage less.
-- you say hostile, I say "not thorough, thoughtful nor discerning". But I'm not in the UK. "I come from a land that is harsh and unforgiving".
I must say, the anti-trans campaign in the UK is shoddy. The right wing media mount periodic panics, 'boy forced to wear lipstick by deranged parents', but I guess the support offered by the present govt takes the wind out of their sails. The feminist attack on trans women is different, and involves a ton of issues, to do with safety, the nature of gender, and I suppose, occupancy of a social space.
Guiding specifically says a child's trans status is confidential.
Girl Guiding specifically uses the word, "discretion", not confidential. The policy on transgender says:
We understand that if a young member is transitioning from female to male that they will be experiencing a great amount of change and uncertainty. Flexibility and the Leaders’ discretion in conversation with the parents must be used to determine how long the child stays within the unit.
i.e. Guide leaders must be discreet and not discuss that they have a transgender Guide in their unit. They are not to go running to the Sun, or tell the world. The policy does not say that they must not discuss this with parents, in fact, the policy specifies working with parents
Might I indicate what I've got out of this debate so far?
Clearly, the vast majority of people are cisgendered, but there are a small number, trans, who are not. The responses of both cisgendered and trans to this situation are culturally-based and value-laden. There is no obvious reason as to why many trans people are insistent on the maintenance of a traditional binary categorisation of sex, when biologically there is a case for a four-fold categorisation: male, female, trans male, and trans female, whose general cultural acceptance would significantly reduce the psychological conditions outlined in this thread and the grievous surgical interventions designed to give the appearance of an unattainable biological sex.
Some feminists have pointed out that irony, that feminism having to an extent deconstructed gender as a binary, it seems to be reinforced by some trans people.
However, this may show how little we know about gender, and why some people have a yearning for the opposite. Having said that, there are also non-binary people, and non-conforming, and agender, and others. How little we know actually. I started working with LGBT people 30 years ago, and it's full of heart-ache, yearning, tragedy, yet also human fulfilment and love.
I managed to catch Daniela Vega's recent film "Una mujer fantastica", on a plane (of all places), while on vacation over the last two weeks. Apart from being a really good movie, I thought it provided a helpful perspective on trans experience. Worth seeing if you get a chance.
If the parents are "dangerous" the schools have a responsibility to call Child Protection which covers here everyone under age 16.
The equivalent here is Social Care - they provide our child protection services and was what I was referring to above.
Changing clothes? Not necessary, we see kids wearing basically whatever they wish to school, including what looks like pyjamas to me. The general rule appears to me that you can't wear hats or hoods up because teachers need to know who is who. There was a trend a little while ago for kool-aid dyed hair (green - lime flavour is not recommended, but cherry red is a pretty good colour) and various forms of exaggerated make-up. I found what was described as 'emo' was pretty diverse.
Secondary schools students nearly all wear uniform here, much unisex, though not all. So for many secondary schools, the uniform will be a white shirt and tie worn with black or grey trousers or skirt and blazer of various colours. Some uniforms are gendered so girls wear blouses and skirts rather than the shirts, ties and trousers. In some areas of the country, uniform is less formal, so a white polo shirt with a school coloured sweatshirt over trousers or skirt (which is what you would normally find in many primary schools). I can see that uniforms will be forced to change to become more unisex to allow for transgender expressions without issue.
Another point about gender as a binary, is that those feminists who are hostile to trans women seem to have taken up a biological view, thus, women are the people with vaginas, (which you don't have). It seems ironic, since early feminists wanted to debiologize gender. And of course, some trans people are arguing that trans identity has biological roots. I think there is ongoing research into this.
I haven't been following this post at all. But you may be interested to read this article which has appeared in our local newspaper today: https://tinyurl.com/y8sowa9c.
Yes, some people argue that the church is more sympathetic to trans people than gays, because trans preserves the binary, male/female, whereas gays don't. However, this sounds odd, as you can be trans and gay.
I think Iran treats trans people better than gays, but I don't know the theological reasoning.
Having bothered to read this, the GIDS evidence base quotes the Stonewall 2012 research for the self harm statistics, not the Stonewall 2017 research, which was what I was using for the figures on attempted suicide in trans and LGBQ young people. If the Stonewall 2012 research is included in the Gender Identity Service evidence base, I would be surprised if the 2017 research was not included when the evidence base is revised.
Within the GIDS evidence base there is a discussion about using hormonal puberty blockers and the evidence for their success. This is something I have encountered in one teenager I knew who fitted the required supportive environment for successful use. As an aside, I have also encountered young people who have been adopted following traumatic abuse being given hormonal puberty blockers along with psychological and adoptive family support to give them longer to come to terms with the abuse before having to deal with puberty.
The cited Daily Mail article includes the following ambiguous statement, undoubtedly phrased for the maximum outrage:
She was advised to keep parents and other teachers in the dark if a pupil claimed to be transgender;
My interpretation of that phrase is that the concerns of individual students are not for discussion with other parents or teachers, under normal professional confidentiality considerations, not that the parents of the individual children are to be excluded. Staff briefings in school do not give full details to all teachers; the sort of information given out in morning briefing would be something along the lines of x in form y is having a bit of a difficult time at the moment and may not cope in lessons. Please bear in mind their fragility and if they are not coping, can you send them to their form teacher/head of year/whoever is supporting them with a note (so they don't get into trouble for wandering the corridors without permission).
The Spectator article references articles and statistics that have been challenged earlier in the thread (including the 80% statistic and the Littman PLOS One article). Education law in Scotland is not the same as it is in England and Wales, which is the area I know, so I don't know how accurate the comments are there, but having a group in to raise awareness in an English school does not mean that the policy suggested by the organisation is adopted by the school. Policies are changed in consultation with other organisations, have to follow the law and are approved by the governing body. One of the things that is inspected by OFSTED are the school policies and that the school complies with their own policies. What I have seen happen in a situation like that is that the senior team will comment at a school briefing that although the organisation suggests supporting children by not referring, the safeguarding policy means that secrets cannot be kept and any concerns need referring to the safeguarding lead. Please can all staff ensure they are familiar with the relevant policies. Should there be any changes in the equality and diversity policy, there might be a comment that it is currently under review, there will be some training on this as part of the next training day when the new policy is agreed.
Commenting on the American mother complaining about sleeping arrangements, for Guides going away the policy is any transgender Guides are accommodated in a separate room(s)/tent(s), as are young leaders and leaders. The same considerations apply on a school trip.
The Daily Mail and Mumsnet are leading the charge against trans kids or gender fluid kids. They often use a whistle blower who purveys vague stories, mixed with panicky exclamations, that something must be done. Teachers are indoctrinating kids en masse, there is mass contagion, and so on. A lot of it is plain wrong, I suppose it's a classic moral panic.
I've read a number of threads on Mumsnet, and they show a variety of opinions, and I don't recognise a description of them as "leading the charge" against trans expression in children. It may be in threads I haven't visited. What I did come across was reports of people being attacked, verbally, physically, having their jobs threatened, for expressing views contrary to the opinions of people supporting trans people.
I went there because I found a link somewhere else, where an academic had reported a demand for being fired for misgendering someone by accident (I think), where a person involved in a women's group had seen that group close because its purpose had been challenged by trans women who felt they were excluded from subjects other women needed to discuss.
It has been very interesting reading things here, but there it looks as though a few trans women are queering the pitch for the group as a whole by behaving without understanding of the group they feel they belong to. Aggressively insisting on calling other women "cis" without recognising that the sauce of claiming to be called what they want to be called is also sauce for those who want not to be called what they don't want to be called doesn't do them any good, though it is a trivial point. Other behaviours have been worse.
A long time ago I read a book, possibly called "Straight and crooked thinking", from which I took one idea. If one side of a debate adopts an extreme position, the other side automatically finds a matching extreme position in response. It looks very much as though that is happening here, with reasonable people on either side looking at the far edges of the other side and seeing stuff which seems to need extreme opposition.
That the supporters of transitioning frequently try to avoid debate, and close down meetings* organised by the other side doesn't help anybody get to understand what is going on with the people who need support with getting on with their lives.
Nobody listens to people with different experiences.
*Not just political meetings. A baby clothes exchange club in South London was denied its venue because some local trans women complained it was, for some reason, transphobic.
Mumsnet has actually toned down recently, after complaints about transphobic comments. But I still notice that it picks up anti-trans stories in the media. The current one is the school in Brighton with 76 pupils who are gender non-conforming. Right wing media tend to fall over themselves to sensationalize such stories, and usually there is a Mumsnet thread about contagion, rapid onset, and the usual hot buttons.
I often wonder if they think a child in distress over gender should be told to straighten their back, put away the "wrong" clothes and toys, and stop being silly. I suppose the conservative view is that the experts in gender clinics are propagandists for trans. Of course, that would be unethical.
The appropriate clinician stance is generally neutrality is it not? not burdening whomever they're working with, with their personal view and stance. Very difficult when the problem is one where the social environment isn't at all neutral and discriminatory.
The old language is "counter-transference" and "transference" but these don't seem sufficient concepts for such profoundly socially expressed and influenced issues. I think I've heard and read insufficient narrative about how young people get to the expression of trans. The "rapid onset" needs a lot more explication.
So some parents have trans kids, without knowing it? What do the kids do, change clothes at school? As mentioned above, it does happen with parents who are hostile, and possibly dangerous to the child.
Kids changing clothes at/on the way to school has always been a thing - mostly teen girls leaving their strict homes looking all demure, and then altering their clothing to look sexy for school. A trans kid doing something similar wouldn't seem all that surprising to me.
So some parents have trans kids, without knowing it? What do the kids do, change clothes at school? As mentioned above, it does happen with parents who are hostile, and possibly dangerous to the child.
Kids changing clothes at/on the way to school has always been a thing - mostly teen girls leaving their strict homes looking all demure, and then altering their clothing to look sexy for school. A trans kid doing something similar wouldn't seem all that surprising to me.
So you think that schools frequently help trans pupils do this?
Just thinking about teachers telling kids, that they can transition without informing parents, and without professional help. I think this would be unethical, and it may be illegal, not sure.
of course, some trans people are arguing that trans identity has biological roots. I think there is ongoing research into this.
You've mentioned "trans identity" before - what do you mean by this ?
I thought the argument being made was that gender dysphoria is objectively real, that there are (a small number of) people who have a male brain (and thus an objectively male identity) in a female body, or vice versa. And that therefore society needs to allow for this possibility, e.g.
- surgical or medical procedures to switch the body to match the brain, available as a health issue not as an elective lifestyle choice
- sufficient bodily privacy that people can live as the opposite sex to that of the body they were born with
- administrative procedures that allow for change of sex.
Are you not somehow wronging such people if you deny the reality of their brain-sex-identity in favour of labels that lump them in with those who have psychological hangups around sex and gender ?
A school fails to provide appropriate changing facilities for a
transsexual pupil and insists that the pupil uses the boys’ changing room even though she is now living as a girl. This could be indirect gender reassignment discrimination unless it can be objectively justified. A suitable alternative might be to allow the pupil to use private changing facilities, such as the staff changing room or another suitable space.
Gender segregation is permitted for a few specifically defined
purposes. For example there is an exemption permitting gender segregation in certain situations where it is necessary to preserve privacy and decency. However, unless a specific exemption applies, segregation connected to gender will be unlawful.
So schools can provide suitable alternative spaces for sleeping and changing for transgender students.
I suspect the thing that is being considered as a reason for teachers to support students without parental knowledge is this clause, from section 5:114
A person will be protected because of gender reassignment once:
• he or she makes his or her intention known to someone, regardless of who this is (whether it is someone at school or at home, or someone such as a doctor);
but that doesn't say anything about not involving parents.
There are legal considerations to do with accommodation and dormitories in section 9 which basically say if a transsexual individual is excluded from dormitories suitable alternative provision must be provided.
A LGBT Youth Scotland spokesperson said: “This guidance was developed with a focus on children’s rights and, importantly, they have the right to privacy. “This means that children and young people can talk to teachers and other professionals about how they feel without informing others. The guidance does encourage teachers to engage with parents, but it’s important to listen to the views of the child in any decision-making.
of course, some trans people are arguing that trans identity has biological roots. I think there is ongoing research into this.
You've mentioned "trans identity" before - what do you mean by this ?
I thought the argument being made was that gender dysphoria is objectively real, that there are (a small number of) people who have a male brain (and thus an objectively male identity) in a female body, or vice versa. And that therefore society needs to allow for this possibility, e.g.
- surgical or medical procedures to switch the body to match the brain, available as a health issue not as an elective lifestyle choice
- sufficient bodily privacy that people can live as the opposite sex to that of the body they were born with
- administrative procedures that allow for change of sex.
Are you not somehow wronging such people if you deny the reality of their brain-sex-identity in favour of labels that lump them in with those who have psychological hangups around sex and gender ?
I don't think psychiatrists and psychologists who work with trans people, talk about male/female brains, as research in this area is in its infancy, and the causes of trans identities are probably complex. They also are concerned with the experience of trans people, how it feels, in simple language.
There is also a wide spectrum of gender identities, including non-conforming, non-binary, genderfluid, and so on. These are not "psychological hang-ups". You can turn this round, conventional gender has been a strait-jacket, from which some people are emerging. After all, feminism blazed a trail here.
With regard to the idea of male and female brains, reading material by Cordelia Fine ("Delusions of gender" is one) might be helpful, as might "Pink brain, Blue brain" by Lise Eliot. Both look at the scientific research into sex differences as perceived, and then examined in scientific research. Whatever is going on with people who believe themselves to be of different gender from what others thought them to be at birth, it is unlikely to be having a male or female brain in the opposite body. Though obviously real.
I think trans people, and other gender variant people, are also wary of the gatekeeping issue. That is, even if some kind of cerebral indication was discovered, of gender variation, it would be bad news if some people were turned away from assessment and treatment, because their brain scans didn't meet some prescribed level. There is also the obvious point about subjective experience; if a client says to me that they struggle with conventional masculinity or femininity, I tend to believe them, and don't ask for blood tests, urine tests, brain scans and so on. This would be pseudo-science.
Who said that all kids should be treated medically? Hint, social transition isn't medical. "Most treatments at this stage are psychological not medical or surgical", (NHS website).
Psychological treatment IS medical. Otherwise psychiatrists and psychologists wouldn't be regulated by the Health Professionals Council.
Social transition is associated with much lower rates of desisting. And starting on medical treatment is associated with practically zero rates of desisting.
if a client says to me that they struggle with conventional masculinity or femininity, I tend to believe them.
Fine - believe them. I believe them too.
Don't tell them they are the other sex.
There is absolutely nothing wrong - unless society says there is - with a boy or man in a dress or a girl or woman with short hair who's an engineer and rides a motorbike.
None of these make them the opposite sex.
Most treatments offered at this stage are psychological, rather than medical or surgical. This is because the majority of children with suspected gender dysphoria don't have the condition once they reach puberty. Psychological support offers young people and their families a chance to discuss their thoughts and receive support to help them cope with the emotional distress of the condition, without rushing into more drastic treatments.
Who said that all kids should be treated medically? Hint, social transition isn't medical. "Most treatments at this stage are psychological not medical or surgical", (NHS website).
Psychological treatment IS medical. Otherwise psychiatrists and psychologists wouldn't be regulated by the Health Professionals Council.
Social transition is associated with much lower rates of desisting. And starting on medical treatment is associated with practically zero rates of desisting.
if a client says to me that they struggle with conventional masculinity or femininity, I tend to believe them.
Fine - believe them. I believe them too.
Don't tell them they are the other sex.
There is absolutely nothing wrong - unless society says there is - with a boy or man in a dress or a girl or woman with short hair who's an engineer and rides a motorbike.
None of these make them the opposite sex.
Of course, I don't tell them that they're the other sex. I don't tell them anything about their gender, that's not my place, in fact, it would be unethical. I do a lot of listening, which is in short supply for many people with gender issues.
Also unethical is telling somebody that their gender conforms with their assigned sex. Oh, I forgot, you'd better look lively, the Daily Mail has another transphobic story.
quetzalcoatl: ... it would be bad news if some people were turned away from assessment and treatment,
I must confess to finding this discussion baffling. For instance, what is a right-thinking person to regard as normal or natural and perfectly acceptable? On the one hand I’m being told that sex/gender is fluid, but on the other that a high proportion of trans individuals are insistent on binary categories. If it's OK to be trans they why should it be the subject of 'assessment and treatment?'
Is trans a medical and/or psychological problem? If it is to be regarded as natural, then why is major surgical intervention recommended and supported? Or, alternatively, dealt with as a psychological condition that needs to be addressed? If the person is not sick why the need for a surgeon or psychiatrist? Does the problem rest with the trans, or a wider society that has difficulty in accepting statistically unusual sex/gender identities? Gays were subjected to all sorts of egregious procedures until it was recognised that the problem was with society not the object of its disapproval. Are we not in danger, quetzalcoatl, of defining an issue of social stigma as a medical problem on the part of the victim?
Wow, Kwesi, that is a ton of questions, not going to answer all of them. Assessment and treatment is required for some people, who are in great distress, and it's claimed that various kinds of treatment make trans people happier. But plenty of people seek help about gender, who are not trans; my own view is that gender has been a strait-jacket, but it's scary to get out of it.
The bit you quoted was about studies of the brain, which are supposed to show that trans people are like the sex they claim to be. However, it's far too soon to base any conclusions on this, and the fear for some trans people and non-conforming, is that it would become another hoop to climb through.
I think trans identity challenges a deep-rooted binary about sex/gender, hence the fierce opposition. But didn't gays find the same? They used to be practically tortured to make them straight, e.g., Turing. Don't ask me why we punish some people, dunno.
This thread is going round in circles. The Ouroboros.
@Kwesi, I don't see that trans people are insisting on binary categories but rather insisting that they know their own damn gender. (I suspect most people reading this feel they know their own genders too.) In my experience, it's not trans people who enforce gender roles and gender norms. It's been cis people who tell me I should wear makeup (often) or imply that all women wear makeup (more often.) I could name so many ways cis people have directly or indirectly told me to be more girly. Gets tiresome.
I also don't know how many trans people adopt gender stereotypes. For example, it's said that trans women tend to wear high heels and short skirts. Well, what if they do? But I also doubt the claim. I've just been reading the story of an 81 year old trans woman, who seems to wear cardigans. There is so much bullshit talked about gender non-conformity.
Just thinking of Gwai's post, and what stands out for me is, "Most people know their own gender". The weird thing is, that some people start telling other people what their gender is, or isn't.
Just thinking of Gwai's post, and what stands out for me is, "Most people know their own gender". The weird thing is, that some people start telling other people what their gender is, or isn't.
This seems quite important. It goes in both directions:
that people may confirm a gender transition when it is not that but represents an adolescent developmental issue, what was formerly popularized as "identity crisis"
that people may disconfirm a gender transition when it actually is one.
One what side shall we be better off making mistakes?
My answer is to not be revolutionary unless there's sufficient evidence to confirm it. Again, noting that there is far more care available in some places than is where I live. Better is to take a reasoned approach, do not advocate for change, be diligent about providing influence versus appropriate self exploration.
I do worry that the "psychological support" tends to be affirming and not objective, with the biases probably not unconscious but actually deliberate. Which isn't okay- it isn't acceptable to influence vulnerable patients and clients with therapist biases and preferences.
Well, OK, but the biases of practitioners include relieving obvious distress. I suppose an underlying idea is also that you are the authority on your own gender, no-one else. There is a lot of rumour about gender fanatics brain-washing vulnerable children and adolescents, but I don't see that in the NHS. There are private doctors also, but they can't just behave like the Wild West. There are always sensationalized stories in the tabloids, of course. The recent one was about the school with 76 gender variant children, but most of them were not trans. In fact, a lot of schools near me (London), have a small number of trans pupils, they seem to cope OK, nobody is running around screaming or tearing their hair out, except some journalists.
Also unethical is telling somebody that their gender conforms with their assigned sex.
As gender is an imposed set of stereotypes thought up by society, then you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who totally bought in to the gender stereotypes that are supposed to correspond to their sex.
By this reasoning, we are all trans.
By a lot of current definitions, I am trans.
Why would anyone, who is not a total dinosaur, think it was right to tell someone they had to conform to gender stereotypes? Do you really think this is what I and a lot of other people concerned about young people (and about threats towards women) are pushing for?
This is a very long read but helpful to understand where many of us are coming from.
No Daily Mail in sight, it's written by a journalist from The Economist.
And you are correct, if you read the article, the NHS is sensible and suggests watchful waiting.
The private GP Helen Webberley has just been suspended by the GMC (and fined) for prescribing illegally to children. She, and her husband who helps run the same clinic where children can get hormones after a Skype consultation, want the NHS to speed up their services and work on an "affirmative model". Again, you can read in that Quillette article about how affirmative models push children who would more likely than not have decided they are NOT transgender, down the medicalisation route.
Listening and working out what's going on in a child's life is good.
Giving them medication that they will need to take for life, and that will sterilise them, is not good.
Comments
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk
Guiding specifically says a child's trans status is confidential.
https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/26/transgender-14-year-old-leaves-note-to-tell-parents-hes-transitioning-overnight-8178053/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6401593/Whistleblower-teacher-makes-shocking-claim-autistic.html
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/how-parents-are-being-shut-out-of-the-transgender-debate/
That says he told his parents he wanted to transition - not the school - they chose to go with that, and he is now on the list for NHS gender services.
Which doesn’t seem to be what you originally asserted re schools.
17 pupils in a school is mentioned a lot, but the total number of pupils is not - so if this is a secondary school with, say, 1000 pupils - I would not find that number at all surprising. Whereas as if it is the size of the secondary I went to (200) then that percentage would seem high.
The daily mail and spectator articles report that teachers are advised not to out children who disclose worries about gender to their parents. This seems reasonable to me, and is a different thing entirely to whether they transition at that point. Issues like this are strongly affected by Gillick competence, too.
I get the push to empower people, but dependent children are just that: dependent. This must be recognized.
So some parents have trans kids, without knowing it? What do the kids do, change clothes at school? As mentioned above, it does happen with parents who are hostile, and possibly dangerous to the child.
Austism and transgender. If there is a link it doesn't mean problem, it means association. The way I've heard it, it is that some young people on the autism spectrum have social relationship difficulties, trend toward obsessional thinking, and may have some body perception issues.
I understand also that there is desire to understand the tremendous increase in requests for transgender therapies, with theories put forth on various sides of it, with the push-back theory being one of social influence. I expect that, like the ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) controversy which seems to have levelled out some, that explanations are too over-simplified; we cannot explain all child achievement, conduct and behaviour problems via ADHD and treat them all with medication. Nor should all who express a wish to change gender be treated medically. Watchful waiting, proper assessment and if necessary, treatment of concurrent disorders of mood, and support through child and teen development years.
Sure parents can be angry and hostile with their children. The children may be up to all sorts of things: substance use, sexual experimentation, stealing, conflicts with others their ages and adults. Here they get into criminal gangs and parents don't know.
If the parents are "dangerous" the schools have a responsibility to call Child Protection which covers here everyone under age 16.
Changing clothes? Not necessary, we see kids wearing basically whatever they wish to school, including what looks like pyjamas to me. The general rule appears to me that you can't wear hats or hoods up because teachers need to know who is who. There was a trend a little while ago for kool-aid dyed hair (green - lime flavour is not recommended, but cherry red is a pretty good colour) and various forms of exaggerated make-up. I found what was described as 'emo' was pretty diverse.
They get offered hormones very quickly here. The intakes are by social workers, next stop nurse practitioner who sends to a doctor. Then it's medications, support groups headed by the social workers and nurses who already have the young person down the trail towards transition. I wish I was making it up.
It is better in some provinces where there's something thorough. But the general wait for psychiatry is 7 months just now where I am, unless crisis and you go to hospital emergency, see a resident (in training psychiatrist) after very long wait, often 8+ hours. You basically don't get mental health talking therapy of any kind unless you pay out of pocket, ranging from about $180/hour or if your workplace benefits offer some coverage less.
-- you say hostile, I say "not thorough, thoughtful nor discerning". But I'm not in the UK. "I come from a land that is harsh and unforgiving".
Girl Guiding specifically uses the word, "discretion", not confidential. The policy on transgender says: i.e. Guide leaders must be discreet and not discuss that they have a transgender Guide in their unit. They are not to go running to the Sun, or tell the world. The policy does not say that they must not discuss this with parents, in fact, the policy specifies working with parents
Clearly, the vast majority of people are cisgendered, but there are a small number, trans, who are not. The responses of both cisgendered and trans to this situation are culturally-based and value-laden. There is no obvious reason as to why many trans people are insistent on the maintenance of a traditional binary categorisation of sex, when biologically there is a case for a four-fold categorisation: male, female, trans male, and trans female, whose general cultural acceptance would significantly reduce the psychological conditions outlined in this thread and the grievous surgical interventions designed to give the appearance of an unattainable biological sex.
However, this may show how little we know about gender, and why some people have a yearning for the opposite. Having said that, there are also non-binary people, and non-conforming, and agender, and others. How little we know actually. I started working with LGBT people 30 years ago, and it's full of heart-ache, yearning, tragedy, yet also human fulfilment and love.
Secondary schools students nearly all wear uniform here, much unisex, though not all. So for many secondary schools, the uniform will be a white shirt and tie worn with black or grey trousers or skirt and blazer of various colours. Some uniforms are gendered so girls wear blouses and skirts rather than the shirts, ties and trousers. In some areas of the country, uniform is less formal, so a white polo shirt with a school coloured sweatshirt over trousers or skirt (which is what you would normally find in many primary schools). I can see that uniforms will be forced to change to become more unisex to allow for transgender expressions without issue.
I think Iran treats trans people better than gays, but I don't know the theological reasoning.
Within the GIDS evidence base there is a discussion about using hormonal puberty blockers and the evidence for their success. This is something I have encountered in one teenager I knew who fitted the required supportive environment for successful use. As an aside, I have also encountered young people who have been adopted following traumatic abuse being given hormonal puberty blockers along with psychological and adoptive family support to give them longer to come to terms with the abuse before having to deal with puberty.
The cited Daily Mail article includes the following ambiguous statement, undoubtedly phrased for the maximum outrage: My interpretation of that phrase is that the concerns of individual students are not for discussion with other parents or teachers, under normal professional confidentiality considerations, not that the parents of the individual children are to be excluded. Staff briefings in school do not give full details to all teachers; the sort of information given out in morning briefing would be something along the lines of x in form y is having a bit of a difficult time at the moment and may not cope in lessons. Please bear in mind their fragility and if they are not coping, can you send them to their form teacher/head of year/whoever is supporting them with a note (so they don't get into trouble for wandering the corridors without permission).
The Spectator article references articles and statistics that have been challenged earlier in the thread (including the 80% statistic and the Littman PLOS One article). Education law in Scotland is not the same as it is in England and Wales, which is the area I know, so I don't know how accurate the comments are there, but having a group in to raise awareness in an English school does not mean that the policy suggested by the organisation is adopted by the school. Policies are changed in consultation with other organisations, have to follow the law and are approved by the governing body. One of the things that is inspected by OFSTED are the school policies and that the school complies with their own policies. What I have seen happen in a situation like that is that the senior team will comment at a school briefing that although the organisation suggests supporting children by not referring, the safeguarding policy means that secrets cannot be kept and any concerns need referring to the safeguarding lead. Please can all staff ensure they are familiar with the relevant policies. Should there be any changes in the equality and diversity policy, there might be a comment that it is currently under review, there will be some training on this as part of the next training day when the new policy is agreed.
Commenting on the American mother complaining about sleeping arrangements, for Guides going away the policy is any transgender Guides are accommodated in a separate room(s)/tent(s), as are young leaders and leaders. The same considerations apply on a school trip.
I went there because I found a link somewhere else, where an academic had reported a demand for being fired for misgendering someone by accident (I think), where a person involved in a women's group had seen that group close because its purpose had been challenged by trans women who felt they were excluded from subjects other women needed to discuss.
It has been very interesting reading things here, but there it looks as though a few trans women are queering the pitch for the group as a whole by behaving without understanding of the group they feel they belong to. Aggressively insisting on calling other women "cis" without recognising that the sauce of claiming to be called what they want to be called is also sauce for those who want not to be called what they don't want to be called doesn't do them any good, though it is a trivial point. Other behaviours have been worse.
A long time ago I read a book, possibly called "Straight and crooked thinking", from which I took one idea. If one side of a debate adopts an extreme position, the other side automatically finds a matching extreme position in response. It looks very much as though that is happening here, with reasonable people on either side looking at the far edges of the other side and seeing stuff which seems to need extreme opposition.
That the supporters of transitioning frequently try to avoid debate, and close down meetings* organised by the other side doesn't help anybody get to understand what is going on with the people who need support with getting on with their lives.
Nobody listens to people with different experiences.
*Not just political meetings. A baby clothes exchange club in South London was denied its venue because some local trans women complained it was, for some reason, transphobic.
I often wonder if they think a child in distress over gender should be told to straighten their back, put away the "wrong" clothes and toys, and stop being silly. I suppose the conservative view is that the experts in gender clinics are propagandists for trans. Of course, that would be unethical.
The old language is "counter-transference" and "transference" but these don't seem sufficient concepts for such profoundly socially expressed and influenced issues. I think I've heard and read insufficient narrative about how young people get to the expression of trans. The "rapid onset" needs a lot more explication.
Kids changing clothes at/on the way to school has always been a thing - mostly teen girls leaving their strict homes looking all demure, and then altering their clothing to look sexy for school. A trans kid doing something similar wouldn't seem all that surprising to me.
So you think that schools frequently help trans pupils do this?
You've mentioned "trans identity" before - what do you mean by this ?
I thought the argument being made was that gender dysphoria is objectively real, that there are (a small number of) people who have a male brain (and thus an objectively male identity) in a female body, or vice versa. And that therefore society needs to allow for this possibility, e.g.
- surgical or medical procedures to switch the body to match the brain, available as a health issue not as an elective lifestyle choice
- sufficient bodily privacy that people can live as the opposite sex to that of the body they were born with
- administrative procedures that allow for change of sex.
Are you not somehow wronging such people if you deny the reality of their brain-sex-identity in favour of labels that lump them in with those who have psychological hangups around sex and gender ?
From the examples on how to support students: So schools can provide suitable alternative spaces for sleeping and changing for transgender students.
I suspect the thing that is being considered as a reason for teachers to support students without parental knowledge is this clause, from section 5:114 but that doesn't say anything about not involving parents.
There are legal considerations to do with accommodation and dormitories in section 9 which basically say if a transsexual individual is excluded from dormitories suitable alternative provision must be provided.
The situation in Scotland is different legally and according to the The Scotsman from June 2018 - Legal Threat Looms Over Teachers Not Telling Parents if Pupil Changes Gender
I don't think psychiatrists and psychologists who work with trans people, talk about male/female brains, as research in this area is in its infancy, and the causes of trans identities are probably complex. They also are concerned with the experience of trans people, how it feels, in simple language.
There is also a wide spectrum of gender identities, including non-conforming, non-binary, genderfluid, and so on. These are not "psychological hang-ups". You can turn this round, conventional gender has been a strait-jacket, from which some people are emerging. After all, feminism blazed a trail here.
Psychological treatment IS medical. Otherwise psychiatrists and psychologists wouldn't be regulated by the Health Professionals Council.
Social transition is associated with much lower rates of desisting. And starting on medical treatment is associated with practically zero rates of desisting.
Fine - believe them. I believe them too.
Don't tell them they are the other sex.
There is absolutely nothing wrong - unless society says there is - with a boy or man in a dress or a girl or woman with short hair who's an engineer and rides a motorbike.
None of these make them the opposite sex.
Of course, I don't tell them that they're the other sex. I don't tell them anything about their gender, that's not my place, in fact, it would be unethical. I do a lot of listening, which is in short supply for many people with gender issues.
Also unethical is telling somebody that their gender conforms with their assigned sex. Oh, I forgot, you'd better look lively, the Daily Mail has another transphobic story.
I must confess to finding this discussion baffling. For instance, what is a right-thinking person to regard as normal or natural and perfectly acceptable? On the one hand I’m being told that sex/gender is fluid, but on the other that a high proportion of trans individuals are insistent on binary categories. If it's OK to be trans they why should it be the subject of 'assessment and treatment?'
Is trans a medical and/or psychological problem? If it is to be regarded as natural, then why is major surgical intervention recommended and supported? Or, alternatively, dealt with as a psychological condition that needs to be addressed? If the person is not sick why the need for a surgeon or psychiatrist? Does the problem rest with the trans, or a wider society that has difficulty in accepting statistically unusual sex/gender identities? Gays were subjected to all sorts of egregious procedures until it was recognised that the problem was with society not the object of its disapproval. Are we not in danger, quetzalcoatl, of defining an issue of social stigma as a medical problem on the part of the victim?
The bit you quoted was about studies of the brain, which are supposed to show that trans people are like the sex they claim to be. However, it's far too soon to base any conclusions on this, and the fear for some trans people and non-conforming, is that it would become another hoop to climb through.
I think trans identity challenges a deep-rooted binary about sex/gender, hence the fierce opposition. But didn't gays find the same? They used to be practically tortured to make them straight, e.g., Turing. Don't ask me why we punish some people, dunno.
This thread is going round in circles. The Ouroboros.
This seems quite important. It goes in both directions:
- that people may confirm a gender transition when it is not that but represents an adolescent developmental issue, what was formerly popularized as "identity crisis"
- that people may disconfirm a gender transition when it actually is one.
One what side shall we be better off making mistakes?My answer is to not be revolutionary unless there's sufficient evidence to confirm it. Again, noting that there is far more care available in some places than is where I live. Better is to take a reasoned approach, do not advocate for change, be diligent about providing influence versus appropriate self exploration.
I do worry that the "psychological support" tends to be affirming and not objective, with the biases probably not unconscious but actually deliberate. Which isn't okay- it isn't acceptable to influence vulnerable patients and clients with therapist biases and preferences.
As gender is an imposed set of stereotypes thought up by society, then you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who totally bought in to the gender stereotypes that are supposed to correspond to their sex.
By this reasoning, we are all trans.
By a lot of current definitions, I am trans.
Why would anyone, who is not a total dinosaur, think it was right to tell someone they had to conform to gender stereotypes? Do you really think this is what I and a lot of other people concerned about young people (and about threats towards women) are pushing for?
This is a very long read but helpful to understand where many of us are coming from.
No Daily Mail in sight, it's written by a journalist from The Economist.
And you are correct, if you read the article, the NHS is sensible and suggests watchful waiting.
The private GP Helen Webberley has just been suspended by the GMC (and fined) for prescribing illegally to children. She, and her husband who helps run the same clinic where children can get hormones after a Skype consultation, want the NHS to speed up their services and work on an "affirmative model". Again, you can read in that Quillette article about how affirmative models push children who would more likely than not have decided they are NOT transgender, down the medicalisation route.
Listening and working out what's going on in a child's life is good.
Giving them medication that they will need to take for life, and that will sterilise them, is not good.