And as np said, sport is based on advantages, fair or unfair. If I am super-tall and slim that might help me in some events. Maybe you could have short races and tall races.
I linked both the Genderbread person and the materials. They both came from the same place, with the teaching materials giving the explanations I quoted. That's as intended by the authors.
I'm confused. Why would the diagram of the Gingerbread Person differ, in terms of the nature of its continuums, from the explanation of the diagram in at least one part of the materials?
Sorry, I can't answer questions on resources that I didn't produce (I only put it up in answer to a query on the thread). You might find it more productive to ask the people who produced it if you have queries.
The Semenya case is heating up, as the S. African athlete challenges the IAAF ruling that women with high testosterone have to lower it. Martina Navratilova decided to get involved, defending Semenya, while criticizing trans athletes. In fact, she said that they cheat. What?
So although Semenya's challenge affects intersex women (or people with differences of sexual development), it has implications for trans athletes.
It also brings up the notion of fairness. I was a fast runner, but at school I was up against this 15 year old giant, who could outrun anyone. Unfair, I muttered to myself. But somehow hormones seem more unfair than height.
There's one description of women with DSD that reverberates, that they are female on the outside, and male on the inside, i.e., with testes. However, this doesn't cover all DSD women at all. None the less, it's a vivid illustration of grey areas in sex/gender.
A trans friend of mine died a day or so ago, we think as a result of suicide. From the conversations we’ve had over the past 12 months I don’t think it was issues inherent to transness that killed her - but transphobia. Having people you know and have liked get pissed and grab you by the throat snarling “what the fuck even are you ?” will get to your mental health.
My current patience with transphobia is non-existent.
Transphobia and Navratilova.
Does she have a point at all? If someone has developed superior strength, stature and endurance because of hormonal exposure, has this resulted in a competitive advantage for sport competition? Realizing additionally that very large sums of money are at stake. There's almost no research and data on this question. Though I doubt that someone would do a temporary gender transformation to achieve success in a sport, but humans are known to do anything at all.
I thought it was the other way round. Trans women are criticized in sport for having masculine musculature, and so on. The IAAF solution is to get them (and Semenya), to reduce testosterone. Certainly, when Semenya did, her time for 800m dropped by 7 seconds, a lot. But she is arguing that God made her like this, and of course, she is not trans, but DSD, I assume, what used to be called intersex.
I forgot to say that some feminists support Semenya, and argue that it's another case of women's bodies being policed. But the Olympics has always had a thing about women who are "virilized".
Not sure that it can be simplified to "women's bodies being policed". The additional issue of sport, fairness, history of drugs/hormones and ongoing body alteration are major issues with sport. Since a long time, East Germany was a major offender and definitely used hormones to enhance performance; some versions of such "enhancement" were quite widespread. They still are issues, and constant developments of performance enhancing chemicals both created in labs and naturally occurring are major issues.
Not sure that it can be simplified to "women's bodies being policed". The additional issue of sport, fairness, history of drugs/hormones and ongoing body alteration are major issues with sport. Since a long time, East Germany was a major offender and definitely used hormones to enhance performance; some versions of such "enhancement" were quite widespread. They still are issues, and constant developments of performance enhancing chemicals both created in labs and naturally occurring are major issues.
Except none of that is applicable to Semenya's case. Whatever hormonal advantage she may have isn't an "enhancement", but her natural base state. Trying to correct her body to conform to some artificial ideal is exactly the kind of thing meant by the phrase "women's bodies being policed".
Why not just have sport classes based on height, weight and hormone level - however acquired.
Sounds complicated, also maybe people like the division into male/female sport, or they're used to it. Once you have that division, there are people who are on the boundary, and people who cross it. Not very neat, but God must have a reason.
Re hormone level, the IOC has indicated the tolerance level for testosterone as the defining trait to compete in women's competitions. The level defined is below 10 nmol/L with the duration of 12 months before competition, posted also above.
Note that with sport, the parties to be satisfied are all of the internal national organizing associations for a sport, the international organizations for the sport, the general organizing group for the world, and the IOC. One country may not determine anything or they will not be allowed to send athletes to international, invitational or other events. And that enforcement may include sanctions against a country which plays an unaccredited team.
Testing is basically a must-do or you are suspended. The testing people show up basically at random and demand samples, not leaving the athletes' side until produced.
The privilege to compete for a specific athlete is up to the national agency and then the IOC, and it isn't a right. They prioritize the sport before the individual. Sport is also big business. Would non-sex segregated sport sell?
I hear about the integrity of sport all the time. Which means competition is fair and appears to be fair. That steps are taken to ensure harm is minimized to participating athletes while participating. That the collectivity of the sport is the most important aspect. I don't think the IOC cares about any one person very much.
Probably wouldn't sell in the current media climate. Sport is conservative. Even minor rule changes are generally controversial. Thinking of icing, hitting and fighting in hockey, changes in broom heads, free guard zones and timing in curling, to consider 2 sports with large Canadian viewership.
In High school sports I remember a recent case of a trans-masculine athlete who was forced to compete as a girl in wrestling meets. He wanted to compete as his authentic self but was forced to compete as a female. He was on testosterone at the time and he basically dominated his weight class. He won the girls championship in Texas two years in a row because of this. Many issues involved.
Interesting that the Lottery has confirmed a big donation to Mermaids, one of the charities helping children with gender issues. When they first announced it, there were objections from various people, saying that they use cod science, they rush kids to treatment, they exaggerated the risk of suicide, and so on. These criticisms are often expressed by anti-trans groups. Would be interesting to read the report by the Lottery.
From what I've heard, the women (gymnasts, etc.) who were given masculinizing hormones had a very rough time after their careers were over. They were really messed up. I think there's a book about them.
ISTM interest in the Olympics started shifting when the Eastern European teams started sending petite-to-normal sized girls/women. Not all of that attention was good or healthy. But AFAIK it made it less likely that girls would be subjected to those hormone programs.
I'm not sure whether boys/men were subjected to hormone programs.
One of the phrases in Navratilova's recent comments that has got LGBT people angry, is the reference to "men who decide to be female". This is a common enough idea, that gender is voluntary. To an extent, this is correct, if we think of cultural gender traits. Thus, wearing a skirt signals female in many Western countries, but not in others. However, many trans and non-binary people insist that their identity as male or female or non-binary is not voluntary, as presumably it is not with cis gender. I'm baffled as to why Navratilova is getting involved in this, as she used to be an LGBT heroine, maybe she fears women's sport being taken over by trans women.
Hmmm...maybe she doesn't believe in trans? The way some LG people don't believe in bi-sexual?
Well, if you talk about deciding to be female or male, that is either naive and ignorant, or a deliberate put-down. Some people do disbelieve in trans, and label it a delusion or a fad. I don't think gender clinics do.
A Vancouver courtroom was the scene of a tense legal battle this week over whether a transgender youth should get medical treatments to help transition to living as a boy.
On one side was the B.C. teen’s father, who wants a temporary injunction to stop the youth from getting testosterone injections and other treatments at a gender clinic.
On the other side was the 14-year-old and the teen’s mother, who want the court to allow the youth, who cannot be identified due to a publication ban, to go ahead with the treatments immediately.
Provincial health authorities, who are supporting the teen, also had lawyers in the B.C. Supreme Court for the hearing which began Tuesday and finished Wednesday.
It came after months of skirmishing between the parents, who are separated, in the process of getting a divorce and have joint custody of the teen.
Obviously, none of us truly know what is happening in the family, but the phenomenon of divorcing parents squabbling over whether their child should play hockey or soccer, go to a private or public school, or go to church or synagogue usually has very little to do with the child's needs.
Asked by the judge how far along the teen was in the transition to living as a boy, the lawyer said the teen had transitioned “entirely” socially everywhere except with the father.
Parents have been to court about choir practice and Halloween costumes. The issue is their conflict not the transgender.
And in all these cases, the warring parents claim the veneer of acting in the best interests of the child, who is being done wrong by the evil other parent. I'm sure that's what Dad claims in this case, too.
ISTM her concern is because she really thinks that lots of men are becoming women, with very little proof that they need to do so--and, right away, before they get very far in transitioning, the hormones make them better players than they were when they were men.
ISTM her concern is because she really thinks that lots of men are becoming women, with very little proof that they need to do so--and, right away, before they get very far in transitioning, the hormones make them better players than they were when they were men.
Without knowing anything about the people concerned, I still feel fairly safe in assuming that the number of "men who become women" in order to win a tennis trophy is zero.
That doesn't make sense, as men transitioning decrease their testosterone, and their athletic performance diminishes, if they take hormone blockers and antiandrogens. This is the requirement of various sports bodies, along with intersex people. The argument is whether trans women have diminished their performance to ensure a level playing field, about which I have no idea.
Well, it's obvious really. The Olympics may require trans women, and some intersex women, who produce a lot of testosterone, to reduce it, so as to approximate to cis women. But some people argue that they still have unfair advantages, e.g., being taller and heavier build.
But testosterone is the muscle building hormone, so when a trans woman takes female hormones, her strength usually diminishes. Does that make it fair, dunno.
She does talk in that article about "reducing hormone levels", so she is not making the common mistake of saying that trans women take supplements in order to become stronger! The case of Semenya is in the courts now, and will probably be influential, (she is not trans). If she is forced to reduce T, her career may be over, as her time for 800m dropped by 7 seconds, I think, when she did it before.
I don't see tons of trans women winning gold medals, in any case, or winning tennis grand slams. Where are they?
I don't see tons of trans women winning gold medals, in any case, or winning tennis grand slams. Where are they?
There aren't tons of trans women at all.
There was a case that hit the news last summer (I think) about a couple of trans women athletes (either high school or college - can't remember which) who took first and second place in some track event(s) by a country mile, and at least one of the defeated cis women was publicly disgruntled about what she saw as unfair competition.
I played tennis in my youth and Martina was my idol. Chris Evert was the pretty tennis player who got on the cereal box but stayed on the baseline. Ironically, my dad used to claim that Martina's success was due to her being intersex or having some sort of genetic anomaly (she wasn't out then, IIRC).
Martina isn't the only person to succumb to the notion that some trans women are men cheating to gain some sort of advantage. My response to that is that the challenges and disadvantages - discrimination, harassment, assault, murder - of living the life of a trans woman far outweigh any "advantages" that might be gained professionally.
There are other advantages that a generally-anatomically-male or female body has in different athletic abilities other than testosterone level. In some sports or Olympic events a generally-anatomically-female body might have advantages that a generally-anatomically-male body would not.
There are other advantages that a generally-anatomically-male or female body has in different athletic abilities other than testosterone level. In some sports or Olympic events a generally-anatomically-female body might have advantages that a generally-anatomically-male body would not.
Apart from some female gymnastics events, which sports or events do you think favour an anatomically female body? Overwhelmingly, the size, muscles, lung capacity and strength of the male body confer sporting advantage.
Apart from some female gymnastics events, which sports or events do you think favour an anatomically female body? Overwhelmingly, the size, muscles, lung capacity and strength of the male body confer sporting advantage.
I don't see intelligence, commitment, social skills, teamwork, courage, humility, self-awareness, proprioception, coordination, nutrition, physical therapy, mental preparation, agility, flexibility, conditioning, technique, training or strategy on your list. Those are pretty useful in all sports, and males don't have a natural advantage in any of those. Rich parents can also be a significant factor in boosting athletic performance.
If all that mattered in sport was size, strength and lung capacity, why even bother with the event? Measure the competitors' height & weight, determine muscle mass, test VO2 max and hand out the medals. Should be a real crowd-pleaser.
Fairness is a strange idea, since professional sport is intrinsically unfair. But I sometimes watch touch rugby in the park, played with mixed teams, very enjoyable. But I guess you have to have the commercial aspects of higher, faster, longer.
The sports writer Jonathan Liew has an interesting article arguing that it's OK to have trans athletes competing, "The prejudice of arguments against trans, intersex and DSD athletes", he sounds quite knowledgeable, but also has the radical idea that it doesn't matter who wins. Oof, dangerous.
Apart from some female gymnastics events, which sports or events do you think favour an anatomically female body? Overwhelmingly, the size, muscles, lung capacity and strength of the male body confer sporting advantage.
I don't see intelligence, commitment, social skills, teamwork, courage, humility, self-awareness, proprioception, coordination, nutrition, physical therapy, mental preparation, agility, flexibility, conditioning, technique, training or strategy on your list. Those are pretty useful in all sports, and males don't have a natural advantage in any of those. Rich parents can also be a significant factor in boosting athletic performance.
If all that mattered in sport was size, strength and lung capacity, why even bother with the event? Measure the competitors' height & weight, determine muscle mass, test VO2 max and hand out the medals. Should be a real crowd-pleaser.
Name an Olympic event in which the female gold medallist had a result which outperformed the male gold medallist?
That's the reason for the separation of men's and women's sport. Unisex sport that is competitive would erase women, and the arguments against trans women in sport says likewise. However, the idea is to reduce trans performance via medication. I don't know if this works or not, but does anybody?
Incidentally, unisex sport that is not competitive looks fun, however people want to win!
Indeed. The co-ed sports I continue to play in my elder years have stipulations such as men may not score but must pass to a woman. Arguments still occur and are alway between the men.
Incidentally, Jackie Shane died last week, as far as I know, the first trans soul singer, working in the 60s. Originally, from Nashville, she ended up in Toronto, working in the gay scene, and many people thought she was gay. Terrific voice. Stuff is on YouTube.
Apart from some female gymnastics events, which sports or events do you think favour an anatomically female body? Overwhelmingly, the size, muscles, lung capacity and strength of the male body confer sporting advantage.
Equestrian events come to mind. Lower body weight is an advantage in many of them.
The Guardian is reporting that trans people are facing problems with the NHS, first, long waits to get to a gender clinic, up to 2 years, and second, also facing GPs who are unsympathetic or not knowledgeable. Sometimes people need bridging hormones, while they wait to go to a clinic, and some GPs refuse, or don't understand the urgency. And some people say that trans people choose this!
Incidentally, the guidelines used by the University of California, Center for Transgender Health, for the care of trans people and non-binary also, is available online. It's interesting, as it goes into a lot of detail. A download, and quite large.
There's also a Guardian report from 23 February following the resignation of the Governor of the Tavistock following an internal report criticising transgender services:
The service has been struggling to contain the fallout from an internal report by Dr David Bell, written in his capacity as then staff governor, which warned that “the GIDS service as it now functions [is] not fit for purpose and children’s ends are being met in a woeful, inadequate manner and some will live on with the damaging consequences”.
In his report, which was submitted to the trust’s board earlier this month and whose findings were first reported in the Observer last year, Bell expressed concern that the service was failing to fully consider psychological and social factors in a young person’s background – such as whether they had been abused, suffered a bereavement or had autism – which might influence their decision to transition. Such views are dismissed by many transgender rights activists who believe they play little, if any, part in a person’s desire to transition.
Comments
I'm confused. Why would the diagram of the Gingerbread Person differ, in terms of the nature of its continuums, from the explanation of the diagram in at least one part of the materials?
So although Semenya's challenge affects intersex women (or people with differences of sexual development), it has implications for trans athletes.
It also brings up the notion of fairness. I was a fast runner, but at school I was up against this 15 year old giant, who could outrun anyone. Unfair, I muttered to myself. But somehow hormones seem more unfair than height.
My current patience with transphobia is non-existent.
Transphobia and Navratilova.
Does she have a point at all? If someone has developed superior strength, stature and endurance because of hormonal exposure, has this resulted in a competitive advantage for sport competition? Realizing additionally that very large sums of money are at stake. There's almost no research and data on this question. Though I doubt that someone would do a temporary gender transformation to achieve success in a sport, but humans are known to do anything at all.
Except none of that is applicable to Semenya's case. Whatever hormonal advantage she may have isn't an "enhancement", but her natural base state. Trying to correct her body to conform to some artificial ideal is exactly the kind of thing meant by the phrase "women's bodies being policed".
Sounds complicated, also maybe people like the division into male/female sport, or they're used to it. Once you have that division, there are people who are on the boundary, and people who cross it. Not very neat, but God must have a reason.
Note that with sport, the parties to be satisfied are all of the internal national organizing associations for a sport, the international organizations for the sport, the general organizing group for the world, and the IOC. One country may not determine anything or they will not be allowed to send athletes to international, invitational or other events. And that enforcement may include sanctions against a country which plays an unaccredited team.
Testing is basically a must-do or you are suspended. The testing people show up basically at random and demand samples, not leaving the athletes' side until produced.
The privilege to compete for a specific athlete is up to the national agency and then the IOC, and it isn't a right. They prioritize the sport before the individual. Sport is also big business. Would non-sex segregated sport sell?
I hear about the integrity of sport all the time. Which means competition is fair and appears to be fair. That steps are taken to ensure harm is minimized to participating athletes while participating. That the collectivity of the sport is the most important aspect. I don't think the IOC cares about any one person very much.
For info, here's WADA's document regulating gender and athletes (PDF).
From what I've heard, the women (gymnasts, etc.) who were given masculinizing hormones had a very rough time after their careers were over. They were really messed up. I think there's a book about them.
ISTM interest in the Olympics started shifting when the Eastern European teams started sending petite-to-normal sized girls/women. Not all of that attention was good or healthy. But AFAIK it made it less likely that girls would be subjected to those hormone programs.
I'm not sure whether boys/men were subjected to hormone programs.
Well, if you talk about deciding to be female or male, that is either naive and ignorant, or a deliberate put-down. Some people do disbelieve in trans, and label it a delusion or a fad. I don't think gender clinics do.
Depends on whether you consider steroids to be hormones. Biologically speaking they are.
Obviously, none of us truly know what is happening in the family, but the phenomenon of divorcing parents squabbling over whether their child should play hockey or soccer, go to a private or public school, or go to church or synagogue usually has very little to do with the child's needs.
So of course Dad had to take his child to court.
Vancouver courtroom scene of battle over treatments for transgender youth
And in all these cases, the warring parents claim the veneer of acting in the best interests of the child, who is being done wrong by the evil other parent. I'm sure that's what Dad claims in this case, too.
ISTM her concern is because she really thinks that lots of men are becoming women, with very little proof that they need to do so--and, right away, before they get very far in transitioning, the hormones make them better players than they were when they were men.
Without knowing anything about the people concerned, I still feel fairly safe in assuming that the number of "men who become women" in order to win a tennis trophy is zero.
But testosterone is the muscle building hormone, so when a trans woman takes female hormones, her strength usually diminishes. Does that make it fair, dunno.
I don't see tons of trans women winning gold medals, in any case, or winning tennis grand slams. Where are they?
There aren't tons of trans women at all.
There was a case that hit the news last summer (I think) about a couple of trans women athletes (either high school or college - can't remember which) who took first and second place in some track event(s) by a country mile, and at least one of the defeated cis women was publicly disgruntled about what she saw as unfair competition.
Martina isn't the only person to succumb to the notion that some trans women are men cheating to gain some sort of advantage. My response to that is that the challenges and disadvantages - discrimination, harassment, assault, murder - of living the life of a trans woman far outweigh any "advantages" that might be gained professionally.
Apart from some female gymnastics events, which sports or events do you think favour an anatomically female body? Overwhelmingly, the size, muscles, lung capacity and strength of the male body confer sporting advantage.
I don't see intelligence, commitment, social skills, teamwork, courage, humility, self-awareness, proprioception, coordination, nutrition, physical therapy, mental preparation, agility, flexibility, conditioning, technique, training or strategy on your list. Those are pretty useful in all sports, and males don't have a natural advantage in any of those. Rich parents can also be a significant factor in boosting athletic performance.
If all that mattered in sport was size, strength and lung capacity, why even bother with the event? Measure the competitors' height & weight, determine muscle mass, test VO2 max and hand out the medals. Should be a real crowd-pleaser.
The sports writer Jonathan Liew has an interesting article arguing that it's OK to have trans athletes competing, "The prejudice of arguments against trans, intersex and DSD athletes", he sounds quite knowledgeable, but also has the radical idea that it doesn't matter who wins. Oof, dangerous.
Name an Olympic event in which the female gold medallist had a result which outperformed the male gold medallist?
Incidentally, unisex sport that is not competitive looks fun, however people want to win!
Equestrian events come to mind. Lower body weight is an advantage in many of them.
This is the Guardian report published today entitled Trans patients in England face soul destroying wait for treatment