Has the possibility ever arisen? It would be very rare given the small proportion of the population which is trans.
Mr. Google tells me that there's a trans boy, Mack Beggs, wrestling in Texas - but by the state of Texas's rules, he has to compete in the girls' competition, and has twice won the state championship. Mr. Beggs wants to wrestle boys.
There are other trans boys wrestling in boys' tournaments in other states, but mostly they're not news - they're just kids on a school wrestling team.
But that's not the point I thought you were raising before, which centred on the attitudes of the cis boy.
The British Medical Journal has an editorial, "Sex, gender and sport", criticizing the IAAF rules on hormone levels, and stating that medical practice does not define sex so narrowly. In a way, this a bit baffling, as this is why the issue has gone to court. But I guess the bmj is saying that these rules by sporting bodies are not scientifically based, and there is a lack of data, and plenty of anecdotes.
I think it's premature to draw conclusions about the limits or extremes of human performance for any sex/gender, for social as well as biological factors including drugs. Most girls are pressured from birth to be less physically active and daring, boys are allowed and encouraged, so it's no surprise pre-pubertal differences show up.
Yes, this. I was encouraged to climb trees and ropes, to be able to do chin pull ups, sit ups and press ups from a young age. I sailed, swam, rowed (big heavy dinghies out to bigger boats) and was a gymnast. I still love the monkey bars on climbing frames and will see if I can swing along them now as a measure of my fitness. (I can still do press ups, and not the silly girly ones.)
At 17 I had bigger biceps than most of the boys in my sixth form. This I know because one of the cricketing boys was showing off his puny muscles; I was surprised into saying "but those aren't anything, mine are better" - to the hilarity of everyone. And then we all compared.
But that's not the point I thought you were raising before, which centred on the attitudes of the cis boy.
You asked whether there was an opportunity for a cis boy to object to wrestling a trans boy, like the boy who objected to wresting girls. There are some trans boys wrestling in high school, therefore there has been such an opportunity.
The Olympics are supposed to be doing a study of before and after effects of hormone treatment, although details are scanty. The Semenya court case has been postponed to the end of April.
The more you look at the Semenya case, the more reverberations it seems to have. Athletics bodies seem to be saying that DSD women athletes have an advantage through having high levels of testosterone, (differences in sexual development). But why does this apply, and not for example, being tall, having a long stride, and so on?
There is also the suggestion that she is not a real woman, which of course, begs the question. Various endocrinologists and others seem to be saying that there isn't a simple definition of sex identity.
Some people seem enamoured of genitals, in this regard, but is this existentially valid? You are a penis, and she is a vulva. Bit reductive, isn't it?
The other point is that Semenya and Dutee Chand (also DSD), are both non-white, and from ex-colonial countries. Is there a latent racism and sexism going on, and who makes the rules? Is it middle-aged white men?
The other point is that Semenya and Dutee Chand (also DSD), are both non-white, and from ex-colonial countries. Is there a latent racism and sexism going on, and who makes the rules? Is it middle-aged white men?
I don't think that any of that is the case with the trans woman in Victoria who's been banned from competing against other women.
Legal experts say the decision will have an impact on the responsibilities of parents by altering family law. It means parents need to respect their kids’ chosen gender, pronouns and name. It also sets a precedent for transitioning youth across the province, suggesting that seeking medical assistance is a health decision and not a political or moral one that a parent can stop.
Legal experts say the decision will have an impact on the responsibilities of parents by altering family law. It means parents need to respect their kids’ chosen gender, pronouns and name. It also sets a precedent for transitioning youth across the province, suggesting that seeking medical assistance is a health decision and not a political or moral one that a parent can stop.
In the context of a conflict between parents whose conflict must be quite high intensity. The article's title doesn't represent the content of what is written.
The decision isn't reported, so it's a bit hard to tell exactly the court said and what the implications might be beyond this particular situation. The lawyer quoted in the article appears to be suggesting that the court said the father's position amounted to "family violence" within the meaning of the BC Family Law Act. I'm not remotely an expert in these things but that seems to be a significant statement.
Lawyers say all sorts of things. It's their job to give opinions and argue that they're right. The quoted lawyer is doing what trained arguers do: arguing. It's not true per se.
It's a report of what the court said that is either correct or incorrect. If it's correct, and I understood it correctly, then it seems to be significant.
It's one of the platforms of the various anti-trans groups that "parents' rights are being trampled on", in other words, parents should have a veto. But this is often considered to be harmful to the kids. Also, I thought that in the UK this connects with Gillick competence, that is, children under 16 being able to consent to medical treatment. It's complicated, though.
I tried to search for the decision without success. However, I googled the father's lawyer and found out that he is a) from Abbotsford, which is the Bible Belt of our corner of the world, and b) he has been harassing school trustees in various districts on behalf of anonymous clients about the implementation of new sexual orientation and gender policies in public schools:
“The SOGI program you are considering is not about protecting children with gender dysphoria, or about anti-bullying and inclusivity. It is about leading children to reject heterosexuality, and to join the community of those who embrace sexuality fluidity, and non-binary sexual orientation and sexual amorality as the norm.”
Looks like Dad found himself a lawyer with a cause. Or maybe the other way around.
As a tangent, but relevant - Gillick competence entrances me. Mrs Victoria Gillick went to court to prevent her daughter(s) from being able to access contraception without her consent. What she ended up with was case law and a legal guideline that allows children who show they understand the issues to take control of their own health, without parental consent - if they show they are Gillick competent.
I don't know if Gillick competence has kicked in much in the UK, in relation to trans kids. I would think rarely, as it would be invoked, not just because parents are resistant to their child's transition, but take legal action to prevent it. A ghastly scenario, which must make everyone feel miserable. Also, presumably, it doesn't apply to social transitioning, names, pronouns, clothes, school, etc.
I started to read stuff about schools in some US states being forced to out kids, with signs of gender dysphoria, to their parents, but it started to make me feel angry and sad, so I stopped.
In other news, Neighbours has cast its first trans character, played by a trans actress. Amazingly, she wrote to the producers, suggesting the idea, and with possible story lines, (Georgie Stone).
It's one of the platforms of the various anti-trans groups that "parents' rights are being trampled on", in other words, parents should have a veto.
In coming to the decision in Gillick, the House of Lords concluded that parental rights
exist only for the benefit of the child, and naturally dwindle as the child matures and can take on responsibilities for themself.
Following this principle, children who are able to show that they understand the ramifications of their choices should certainly be able to socially transition against the wishes of their parents.
The specific ruling in Gillick applies to medical treatment, but I think the arguments are more generally applicable.
"Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of life's longing for itself. They come through you, but not from you, and though they are with you yet they belong not to you". Kahlil Gibran.
"Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of life's longing for itself. They come through you, but not from you, and though they are with you yet they belong not to you". Kahlil Gibran.
The rest of the paragraph:
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.
The book from where this is from, The Prophet was published in 1923. I reprint from Wikiquote. The full changes the sense of it.
Poetry aside, if parents have absolute control over their children's bodies, how is that different from slavery? They're automatically freed at a certain age?
Yes, I don't know what the legal situation was in England before Gillick competence. Not a lawyer, but I think that courts could overrule parents in emergencies, e.g., blood transfusions, but I think with Gillick the GP/surgeon can make that decision as to the competence of the patient. It applies in various situations, e.g., abortion, and also protects the confidentiality of medical records from parents. As I said, I think its use in gender nonconformity cases is rare, well, in England.
In other words, a 14 year old girl can go to a GP, and ask for an abortion, and he is not required to inform the parents, if he judges that she is mature enough to make that decision. Of course, it happens. It actually applies to therapy and counselling also.
[Tangent]
"he". Perhaps it is different there. Just over half of physicians in training here in my province are "she".
[/tangenT]
In Canada, psychological competence and legal competence are different things. A child in my province is someone under 16 years under the Child and Family Services Act. If a psychologically competent child wants a medical service and is less than this age, the health care provider must weigh the dependency relationship of child and parent, and also the nature of the health care service being requested. And even after age 16, a dependency relationship may affect the level of competence to make an independent decision. In other situations, like divorced parents insisting that a child wants to live with them versus the other parent, 13 or 14 is the minimum age family courts have considered "the voice of the child" in my province. Thus it also depends on the gravity and life-changing nature of the decision.
Because in actuality so few of these situations are adversarial among young person, parents, health care provider, we can easily get down a rabbit hole of concern about who and what situation of medical service request. Transg where I live is one one of these areas, because the level of actual clinical assessment is so limited and cursory and provided by physicians alone, with psychosocial assessment and attention being hit am miss, mostly depending on the individual's or family resources, i.e., you need to pay for it yourself.
Re: the family court conflict noted above in B.C., when these things involve medical, legal and ethical issues, it is always wise for practitioners to consult others in their profession and usually call their association's legal advice, and perhaps also their own different lawyer. But never rely on the legal advice in absence of consulting others in their own and allied professions (having seen decisions of professional licencing bodies which specifically indicate that medical and psychological practitioners may not defer to the ideas of another profession - lawyers - for what to do).
... Transg where I live is one one of these areas, because the level of actual clinical assessment is so limited and cursory and provided by physicians alone, with psychosocial assessment and attention being hit am miss, mostly depending on the individual's or family resources, i.e., you need to pay for it yourself. ...
Would you say that is also the case with access to mental health and social services for other serious psychological/psychiatric disorders? As you say, there are lots of counsellors and social workers out there that can deal with simpler matters (if you can pay), but I don't know of any place where there is a surplus of psychiatrists (who are covered by my provincial health plan) who talk as well as prescribe. I waited almost two fucking years for my referral and ended up in the hospital twice while waiting.
To a teenager in distress, two years is an eternity and naturally they want to find an answer as quickly as possible. Telling a kid they have to wait - for whatever reason, logical or not - will be interpreted as a message that their feelings are not important enough to bother with right now. Telling a kid they might change their mind - even a kid that does later change their mind - will be interpreted as a message that their feelings aren't real.
... Transg where I live is one one of these areas, because the level of actual clinical assessment is so limited and cursory and provided by physicians alone, with psychosocial assessment and attention being hit am miss, mostly depending on the individual's or family resources, i.e., you need to pay for it yourself. ...
Would you say that is also the case with access to mental health and social services for other serious psychological/psychiatric disorders? As you say, there are lots of counsellors and social workers out there that can deal with simpler matters (if you can pay), but I don't know of any place where there is a surplus of psychiatrists (who are covered by my provincial health plan) who talk as well as prescribe. I waited almost two fucking years for my referral and ended up in the hospital twice while waiting.
To a teenager in distress, two years is an eternity and naturally they want to find an answer as quickly as possible. Telling a kid they have to wait - for whatever reason, logical or not - will be interpreted as a message that their feelings are not important enough to bother with right now. Telling a kid they might change their mind - even a kid that does later change their mind - will be interpreted as a message that their feelings aren't real.
The hospital psychiatrist sees emergency room patients and writes to the family doc who then makes a referral to a community psychiatrist. The only way to see a psychiatrist fast is to go to hospital and wait, and that's a one time consult. Return and you'll see another. If you represent that you're in great crisis or they'll see you briefly and send you home. However, anything smacking at all of violence, the police will arrest you out of emergency. The wait times for community psychiatry quoted range from 7 months to 3 years depending on what clinic of what psychiatrist (clinic meaning when the psychiatrist is treating certain disorders).
The province (and other provinces) is employing people as "behaviour therapists" and counsellors so they don't have to pay the salary amounts that psychologists and MSW social workers can command. I understand that there's a move afoot across the country to licence counsellors for this reason, with the idea that you can train someone to apply a technique or method like CBT, and manage the dose (number of treatment sessions and follow-up monitoring of symptoms, adherence and response) like a medication. For PTSD I understand you get 16 weeks of CBT-derived treatment for example. The therapy re and for trans basically isn't.
Transg is way down the list of priorities. The recent prov budget is more concerned with opiate (fentanyl) overdoses and drug addiction treatment, which again is measured in sessions and dose by people designated as "addictions counsellors". I have not seen any form of session-dose-response-conclusion info re trans, with the understanding that expressing the wish or need is sufficient to trigger referrals for medications (the offer of hormones and drugs happened in the second appt for our family member: they barely knew anything about her/him), then so much time on meds leads to possible next steps.
(I've consulted in public and health policy for 30 years, ever since left the civil service.)
For some reason, Lord Coe, who is president of IAAF, has written an article on the Semenya case. It's in an Australian newspaper, which I can't trace, but supposedly the article refers to the "muscle packed Semenya", and basically supports the banning of DSD athletes, (intersex). It's odd timing as the case is in court, but it looks like athletics bodies are going all out against such athletes. The implications for trans athletes, unknown.
Some stories that testosterone has different effects in different events. For example, in the pole vault and hammer throw, female winners had higher T than others in the world championships, but pole vault is not regulated with regard to hormones. Why not? Pick your conspiracy theory now.
It's said to be in the Australian Daily Telegraph, which I can find, but no article by Coe.
A Murdoch publication and not normally thought of as a reliable source for anything save racing tips and so forth. I can't open it, it's behind a paywall for me.
... Transg where I live is one one of these areas, because the level of actual clinical assessment is so limited and cursory and provided by physicians alone, with psychosocial assessment and attention being hit am miss, mostly depending on the individual's or family resources, i.e., you need to pay for it yourself. ...
Would you say that is also the case with access to mental health and social services for other serious psychological/psychiatric disorders? As you say, there are lots of counsellors and social workers out there that can deal with simpler matters (if you can pay), but I don't know of any place where there is a surplus of psychiatrists (who are covered by my provincial health plan) who talk as well as prescribe. I waited almost two fucking years for my referral and ended up in the hospital twice while waiting.
To a teenager in distress, two years is an eternity and naturally they want to find an answer as quickly as possible. Telling a kid they have to wait - for whatever reason, logical or not - will be interpreted as a message that their feelings are not important enough to bother with right now. Telling a kid they might change their mind - even a kid that does later change their mind - will be interpreted as a message that their feelings aren't real.
The hospital psychiatrist sees emergency room patients and writes to the family doc who then makes a referral to a community psychiatrist. The only way to see a psychiatrist fast is to go to hospital and wait, and that's a one time consult. Return and you'll see another. If you represent that you're in great crisis or they'll see you briefly and send you home. However, anything smacking at all of violence, the police will arrest you out of emergency. The wait times for community psychiatry quoted range from 7 months to 3 years depending on what clinic of what psychiatrist (clinic meaning when the psychiatrist is treating certain disorders).
The province (and other provinces) is employing people as "behaviour therapists" and counsellors so they don't have to pay the salary amounts that psychologists and MSW social workers can command. I understand that there's a move afoot across the country to licence counsellors for this reason, with the idea that you can train someone to apply a technique or method like CBT, and manage the dose (number of treatment sessions and follow-up monitoring of symptoms, adherence and response) like a medication. For PTSD I understand you get 16 weeks of CBT-derived treatment for example.
Slightly tangential to the thread's main topic, but according to this rather alarming piece in yesterday's Globe it looks like Ontario is heading in the same direction.
quetzalcoatl: The other point is that Semenya and Dutee Chand (also DSD), are both non-white, and from ex-colonial countries. Is there a latent racism and sexism going on, and who makes the rules? Is it middle-aged white men?
I get the feeling it's middle-aged and elderly feminists allied to cis-gendered sportswomen whose make these sorts of rules. It's also my experience that non-whites in ex-colonial territories hold rather more conservative views on these matters than their white contemporaries in the West. Decadent ageing white men may be responsible for all sorts of reprehensible attitudes but are so ignorant of the terms and issues involved in the transgender debate that they are utterly unable to express any sort of opinion on the matter. Except, of course, the savants who have kept this discussion going over so many pages. As for Semenya, good look to the her she undoubtedly is.
It's often said that 2nd wave feminists are more likely to be hostile to trans women. I don't know if this is correct, but maybe older feminists such as Greer cannot adjust to gender non-conformity. In a way, this seems ironic, since feminism deconstructed gender in the year dot.
As for sports bodies, I know even less about their personnel, but certainly a number of professional sports women are asking the Olympics to ban trans women, Navratilova, Radcliffe, Davies, Holmes, although Radcliffe actually is more liberal.
What wave of feminism are we on now? Third? Fourth? The terminology may not matter as much as first- and second-wave but I'm just curious what people have been saying.
Bit of a shock this morning to see the Times front page story, "stop experiments on transgender children". Actually, a lot of old stuff in the article, but for some reason, the Times, which has been anti-trans for years, is going full tilt, citing criticisms of hormone blockers and cross-sex treatment.
It seems irresponsible to me, interfering in treatments by gender clinics, especially the Tavistock. What do they think kids in distress should do? Take an aspirin?
Bit of a shock this morning to see the Times front page story, "stop experiments on transgender children". Actually, a lot of old stuff in the article, but for some reason, the Times, which has been anti-trans for years, is going full tilt, citing criticisms of hormone blockers and cross-sex treatment.
It seems irresponsible to me, interfering in treatments by gender clinics, especially the Tavistock. What do they think kids in distress should do? Take an aspirin?
I always think there's a bit of a logical fallacy in the kind of argument that the Times is making - it assumes that doing nothing is not "experimenting on children". Doing nothing is just as much a choice as doing something.
Well, doing nothing often seems to mean opposing a social transition for the child. You might then of course, lose them completely. Are parents happy to take that risk?
Well, Semenya lost her appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. This means she will have to take hormone suppressants or cannot race in women's events. She says she will fight on, as you would expect.
Many reactions to this, both approval of the regs and dismay. Some scientists are opposing the regulations, and there are ethical issues, about giving somebody medication, who is not ill.
A lot of support for her as well. Will give more detail later.
Have been arguing with some people hostile to gender diversity, and one of their mantras is that "biological sex is objectively real", and for the evangelicals, divinely ordained. From this they proceed to the idea that gender non-conformity is delusional. I find this argument pretty opaque, really. Identity is subjective, isn't it?
Many reactions to this, both approval of the regs and dismay. Some scientists are opposing the regulations, and there are ethical issues, about giving somebody medication, who is not ill.
Not to mention that the suggested medication has pretty horrendous side effects.
That's a little pedantic Dafyd but for the sake of clarity when I say my language is part of who I am I'm referring to my language insofar as it is based on hardwired categories that are innate. I do not have any innate category that "Liz" or "Betty" is based on but I do believe I have a hardwired category of gender. Not that I'm really bothered if someone thinks that I'm selfish for using language that is natural to me. What I'm really concerned about is the prospect of people losing their jobs for having done so.
A person's sex is objectively male or female or categorisable somewhere in between the two. A person's gender is wholly subjective and depends on how they feel about their body.
If someone tells you they are depressed you don't insist they are cheerful just because you think they should be cheerful.
Many reactions to this, both approval of the regs and dismay. Some scientists are opposing the regulations, and there are ethical issues, about giving somebody medication, who is not ill.
Not to mention that the suggested medication has pretty horrendous side effects.
Yes, I suppose the sports bodies will argue that hormone suppression is voluntary. Yes, and if you refuse, your career is over.
This is difficult question. Because biological sex as genitalia indicates is set aside in favour of a gender definition, and because testosterone and other lab-created hormones are performance enhancing drugs in sport, the deciding committees appear stuck with the hormonal definition of who gets to compete. If there was another athlete who had the same testosterone levels as this one does, and it was from supplementation (doping), would approving this athlete force approval of others? Whether or not natural source or doped source? I think they fear this. Doping is sophisticated enough that it may not 2nd possible to differentiate natural and artificial hormone levels. I've seen other comparisons to things like body shape, other biological aspects of specific athletes. The comparisons are not carrying it with the deciding authorities because body morphology is not changeable like the hormones are.
Also, it must be understood that sport has no interest in being an agent of social change and acceptance. At high level competition, the interest is the integrity of the sport and revenues from broadcasting. And basically, morphological women do not want to compete with morphological men for good reasons: male physiology outperforms female at many sports. Because of the way CIS* sports are structured, when I watch my nieces play I get to watch men play too. Rather different level of play.
@Colin Smith there was a discussion about the way sex is determined several pages back and it isn't black and white - there's an article linked here and several other posts following on that discussion - all back on page 16.
I find the knowledge of how complicated the in utero processes are for forming the sex/gender of individuals convinces me that there are many ways that these processes may be disrupted, which would leave the individuals at different points on the sex/sexuality/gender spectrum. Intersex individuals often have genetic differences, which will change things again.
The irony is that Semenya has always lived as a woman, but is not the right kind of woman for sports. Some of her supporters suggest that she is targeted as a black lesbian, maybe. But there are so many odd aspects of the IAAF rules, for example, they only apply to 5 out of 22 women's events. And, there are hardly any studies of DSD athletes, so little evidence, as far as I can see.
Comments
But that's not the point I thought you were raising before, which centred on the attitudes of the cis boy.
Yes, this. I was encouraged to climb trees and ropes, to be able to do chin pull ups, sit ups and press ups from a young age. I sailed, swam, rowed (big heavy dinghies out to bigger boats) and was a gymnast. I still love the monkey bars on climbing frames and will see if I can swing along them now as a measure of my fitness. (I can still do press ups, and not the silly girly ones.)
At 17 I had bigger biceps than most of the boys in my sixth form. This I know because one of the cricketing boys was showing off his puny muscles; I was surprised into saying "but those aren't anything, mine are better" - to the hilarity of everyone. And then we all compared.
You asked whether there was an opportunity for a cis boy to object to wrestling a trans boy, like the boy who objected to wresting girls. There are some trans boys wrestling in high school, therefore there has been such an opportunity.
There is also the suggestion that she is not a real woman, which of course, begs the question. Various endocrinologists and others seem to be saying that there isn't a simple definition of sex identity.
Some people seem enamoured of genitals, in this regard, but is this existentially valid? You are a penis, and she is a vulva. Bit reductive, isn't it?
I don't think that any of that is the case with the trans woman in Victoria who's been banned from competing against other women.
Misgendering kids and preventing transition can constitute child abuse
In the context of a conflict between parents whose conflict must be quite high intensity. The article's title doesn't represent the content of what is written.
Looks like Dad found himself a lawyer with a cause. Or maybe the other way around.
In coming to the decision in Gillick, the House of Lords concluded that parental rights
exist only for the benefit of the child, and naturally dwindle as the child matures and can take on responsibilities for themself.
Following this principle, children who are able to show that they understand the ramifications of their choices should certainly be able to socially transition against the wishes of their parents.
The specific ruling in Gillick applies to medical treatment, but I think the arguments are more generally applicable.
The book from where this is from, The Prophet was published in 1923. I reprint from Wikiquote. The full changes the sense of it.
"he". Perhaps it is different there. Just over half of physicians in training here in my province are "she".
[/tangenT]
In Canada, psychological competence and legal competence are different things. A child in my province is someone under 16 years under the Child and Family Services Act. If a psychologically competent child wants a medical service and is less than this age, the health care provider must weigh the dependency relationship of child and parent, and also the nature of the health care service being requested. And even after age 16, a dependency relationship may affect the level of competence to make an independent decision. In other situations, like divorced parents insisting that a child wants to live with them versus the other parent, 13 or 14 is the minimum age family courts have considered "the voice of the child" in my province. Thus it also depends on the gravity and life-changing nature of the decision.
Because in actuality so few of these situations are adversarial among young person, parents, health care provider, we can easily get down a rabbit hole of concern about who and what situation of medical service request. Transg where I live is one one of these areas, because the level of actual clinical assessment is so limited and cursory and provided by physicians alone, with psychosocial assessment and attention being hit am miss, mostly depending on the individual's or family resources, i.e., you need to pay for it yourself.
Re: the family court conflict noted above in B.C., when these things involve medical, legal and ethical issues, it is always wise for practitioners to consult others in their profession and usually call their association's legal advice, and perhaps also their own different lawyer. But never rely on the legal advice in absence of consulting others in their own and allied professions (having seen decisions of professional licencing bodies which specifically indicate that medical and psychological practitioners may not defer to the ideas of another profession - lawyers - for what to do).
Would you say that is also the case with access to mental health and social services for other serious psychological/psychiatric disorders? As you say, there are lots of counsellors and social workers out there that can deal with simpler matters (if you can pay), but I don't know of any place where there is a surplus of psychiatrists (who are covered by my provincial health plan) who talk as well as prescribe. I waited almost two fucking years for my referral and ended up in the hospital twice while waiting.
To a teenager in distress, two years is an eternity and naturally they want to find an answer as quickly as possible. Telling a kid they have to wait - for whatever reason, logical or not - will be interpreted as a message that their feelings are not important enough to bother with right now. Telling a kid they might change their mind - even a kid that does later change their mind - will be interpreted as a message that their feelings aren't real.
The hospital psychiatrist sees emergency room patients and writes to the family doc who then makes a referral to a community psychiatrist. The only way to see a psychiatrist fast is to go to hospital and wait, and that's a one time consult. Return and you'll see another. If you represent that you're in great crisis or they'll see you briefly and send you home. However, anything smacking at all of violence, the police will arrest you out of emergency. The wait times for community psychiatry quoted range from 7 months to 3 years depending on what clinic of what psychiatrist (clinic meaning when the psychiatrist is treating certain disorders).
The province (and other provinces) is employing people as "behaviour therapists" and counsellors so they don't have to pay the salary amounts that psychologists and MSW social workers can command. I understand that there's a move afoot across the country to licence counsellors for this reason, with the idea that you can train someone to apply a technique or method like CBT, and manage the dose (number of treatment sessions and follow-up monitoring of symptoms, adherence and response) like a medication. For PTSD I understand you get 16 weeks of CBT-derived treatment for example. The therapy re and for trans basically isn't.
Transg is way down the list of priorities. The recent prov budget is more concerned with opiate (fentanyl) overdoses and drug addiction treatment, which again is measured in sessions and dose by people designated as "addictions counsellors". I have not seen any form of session-dose-response-conclusion info re trans, with the understanding that expressing the wish or need is sufficient to trigger referrals for medications (the offer of hormones and drugs happened in the second appt for our family member: they barely knew anything about her/him), then so much time on meds leads to possible next steps.
(I've consulted in public and health policy for 30 years, ever since left the civil service.)
A Murdoch publication and not normally thought of as a reliable source for anything save racing tips and so forth. I can't open it, it's behind a paywall for me.
Slightly tangential to the thread's main topic, but according to this rather alarming piece in yesterday's Globe it looks like Ontario is heading in the same direction.
I get the feeling it's middle-aged and elderly feminists allied to cis-gendered sportswomen whose make these sorts of rules. It's also my experience that non-whites in ex-colonial territories hold rather more conservative views on these matters than their white contemporaries in the West. Decadent ageing white men may be responsible for all sorts of reprehensible attitudes but are so ignorant of the terms and issues involved in the transgender debate that they are utterly unable to express any sort of opinion on the matter. Except, of course, the savants who have kept this discussion going over so many pages. As for Semenya, good look to the her she undoubtedly is.
As for sports bodies, I know even less about their personnel, but certainly a number of professional sports women are asking the Olympics to ban trans women, Navratilova, Radcliffe, Davies, Holmes, although Radcliffe actually is more liberal.
It seems irresponsible to me, interfering in treatments by gender clinics, especially the Tavistock. What do they think kids in distress should do? Take an aspirin?
(The Times is behind a paywall).
I always think there's a bit of a logical fallacy in the kind of argument that the Times is making - it assumes that doing nothing is not "experimenting on children". Doing nothing is just as much a choice as doing something.
Many reactions to this, both approval of the regs and dismay. Some scientists are opposing the regulations, and there are ethical issues, about giving somebody medication, who is not ill.
A lot of support for her as well. Will give more detail later.
Not to mention that the suggested medication has pretty horrendous side effects.
A person's sex is objectively male or female or categorisable somewhere in between the two. A person's gender is wholly subjective and depends on how they feel about their body.
If someone tells you they are depressed you don't insist they are cheerful just because you think they should be cheerful.
Yes, I suppose the sports bodies will argue that hormone suppression is voluntary. Yes, and if you refuse, your career is over.
Also, it must be understood that sport has no interest in being an agent of social change and acceptance. At high level competition, the interest is the integrity of the sport and revenues from broadcasting. And basically, morphological women do not want to compete with morphological men for good reasons: male physiology outperforms female at many sports. Because of the way CIS* sports are structured, when I watch my nieces play I get to watch men play too. Rather different level of play.
*CIS - Canadian Inter-university Sport