Pope Francis, I once thought you were good but I see you are bad

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Comments

  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    What's tangentially upsetting is the harmful naiveté presented by Pontiff Prime¹. Everyone even remotely familiar with the counselling of clergy, especially RC clergy, knows that basically nobody sane is celibate². There is no way that he cannot know this. So either he is dutifully pretending to be ignorant of it (which is bad), or he is clinging to a person blind spot regarding it and is self-deluded (which is worse).

    Perhaps it's a matter of degree. The frustrated heterosexual RC clergy must be painfully jealous of their homosexual peer's ability to express themselves sexually (because of lack of risk of pregnancy, and the ingrained secrecy built into homosexuality in religion), and want everybody to have to suffer with just furtive and prolific masturbation like they do.

    ¹ Like Optimus Prime, but with a better hat.
    ² Extra-especially per the exhorted paradigm of celibacy from Catholicism.
  • edited December 2018
    I see Francis wears eye glasses, perhaps his wiener and beans are past their best before date like his eyes, unlike Moses, presuming I read more of Deuteronomy correctly, reading "natural force" as the ability to get a boner? With the eyes and dinky failing perhaps he's forgotten the sexual frustrations of youth?

    "And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated." (Deut 34:7 KJV)
  • I suspect a considerable number of Catholic clergy are gay - like everyone else.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    I suspect a considerable number of Catholic clergy are gay - like everyone else.

    If by "everyone else" you mean clergy that are expected to be celibate, then yes they absolutely do. If by "everyone else" you mean the general rate of homosexuality in human populations, then no: RC priests are homosexual at a rate several multiples above genpop.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    Are you sure this is quite the story it's being presented as?

    I'm not RC but quite a big element in what he's saying appears to be that the commitment to celibacy applies just as much to priests who happen to have a gay orientation as to those who have a straight one. The same applies to the avoidance of particularity among the religious. Those who have an emphatically gay lifestyle shouldn't become priests any more that those who want to continue to have affaires with women shouldn't.

    Indeed, if clergy are required to be celibate anyway, and are abiding by that commitment, perhaps it becomes irrelevant which sex they would choose if they could have a relationship.

    Exactly.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    I suspect a considerable number of Catholic clergy are gay - like everyone else.
    As RooK notes, the percentages are higher among Roman Catholic clergy than in the population in general. But celibacy and holy orders were traditionally an acceptable role for gays. That seems to be changing.

  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Sounds like he's talking about orientation to me:

    " those responsible for training priests must make sure candidates are "humanly and emotionally mature" before they are ordained.

    "For this reason, the Church urges that persons with this rooted tendency not be accepted into ministry or consecrated life.""

    Exactly.
  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    I suspect a considerable number of Catholic clergy are gay - like everyone else.
    As RooK notes, the percentages are higher among Roman Catholic clergy than in the population in general. But celibacy and holy orders were traditionally an acceptable role for gays. That seems to be changing.

    I'm sure this is true.

    But it does depend on what the Pontiff actually meant. If he is saying that everyone is to be celibate then that's fair - even if others disagree.

    But if he's saying they can't be gay, then that's inconsistent with the facts and reality.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    But if a person is faithful to being celibate, are they either gay or straight? Doesn't that become a silly question? And even if they could be, does it matter?
  • To be fair to His Alleged Holiness, there are more vicious misogynistic homophobes in the world. Though perhaps few so influential.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    But if a person is faithful to being celibate, are they either gay or straight? Doesn't that become a silly question? And even if they could be, does it matter?

    Yes.

    And it might, depending on the words the pontiff is using.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    But if a person is faithful to being celibate, are they either gay or straight? Doesn't that become a silly question? And even if they could be, does it matter?

    Er, yeah, I was straight long before I got within a sniff of Tab A Slot B business.
  • RussRuss Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    But if a person is faithful to being celibate, are they either gay or straight?

    To those who believe that sexual orientation is identity, then yes they're basically either gay or straight even if they're resisting their desires.

    To those who believe that identity is more than who or what you carnally desire, then maybe "celibate religious" or "priest" (with celibacy implied) can be an identity.

    Karl quoted Papa Francis:
    "For this reason, the Church urges that persons with this rooted tendency not be accepted into ministry or consecrated life."

    Isn't that what you want him to say about paedophiles ?
  • Russ wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    But if a person is faithful to being celibate, are they either gay or straight?

    To those who believe that sexual orientation is identity, then yes they're basically either gay or straight even if they're resisting their desires.

    To those who believe that identity is more than who or what you carnally desire, then maybe "celibate religious" or "priest" (with celibacy implied) can be an identity.

    Karl quoted Papa Francis:
    "For this reason, the Church urges that persons with this rooted tendency not be accepted into ministry or consecrated life."

    Isn't that what you want him to say about paedophiles ?

    Oh fuck off you fucking fuckwit.

    Just leave your coat and fuck off out of it.

    Pathetic.
  • @Russ, that looks as if you have just equated homosexuality with paedophilia? Really? I suggest you withdraw that one toot sweet.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Russ wrote: »
    "For this reason, the Church urges that persons with this rooted tendency not be accepted into ministry or consecrated life."

    Isn't that what you want him to say about paedophiles ?
    Wouldn't that be undermining the entire leadership of the Catholic church, considering how they're all thusly culpable?
  • This latest piece by Andrew Sullivan (gay, small-c conservative, Roman Catholic) about the long history of homosexuality in the Catholic church, and changes the church needs to make, may be of interest.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    That's a good article; thanks for sharing.
  • RussRuss Shipmate
    @Russ, that looks as if you have just equated homosexuality with paedophilia? Really? I suggest you withdraw that one toot sweet.

    Modern English culture has these two words and draws a clear distinction between them, seeing them as essentially different sexual orientations.

    Pope Francis doesn't speak English.

    I don't speak Spanish, and know little of Argentinian culture, so I'm perfectly willing to be corrected by those who do understand what he said in its original language and context.

    But it seems to me plausible that his remarks may have referred to "men who like boys".

    And people like yourself, invested in the worldview of modern English culture, have one kneejerk reaction if this is translated as "homosexuals" and another if it is translated as "paedophiles"...


  • Russ wrote: »

    And people like yourself, invested in the worldview of modern English culture, have one kneejerk reaction if this is translated as "homosexuals" and another if it is translated as "paedophiles"...


    If you can't see the difference between adults and children, you must be a total prick.

    Oh wait.
  • Russ wrote: »
    @Russ, that looks as if you have just equated homosexuality with paedophilia? Really? I suggest you withdraw that one toot sweet.

    Modern English culture has these two words and draws a clear distinction between them, seeing them as essentially different sexual orientations.

    Pope Francis doesn't speak English.

    I don't speak Spanish, and know little of Argentinian culture, so I'm perfectly willing to be corrected by those who do understand what he said in its original language and context.

    But it seems to me plausible that his remarks may have referred to "men who like boys".

    And people like yourself, invested in the worldview of modern English culture, have one kneejerk reaction if this is translated as "homosexuals" and another if it is translated as "paedophiles"...

    Wow. Talk about ducking and weaving. You could give Kellyanne Conway lessons.

    Regardless of what the pontiff may or may not have meant, or may or may not have been translated, or mis-translated, as saying, to reply, on your own behalf, with, "No, @Curiosity killed, it was not my intent to equate homosexuality with paedophilia.", on the other hand, is a single, comprehensible sentence, which would have let people know where you stand on the issue. The issue that you introduced into the conversation.

    Also, Pope Francis does speak [heavily accented] English - along with a veritable plethora of other languages - which fact you could have acquainted yourself with in less than twenty seconds if you weren't so busy having a knee-jerk reaction yourself. https://youtube.com/watch?v=teglsy0mZ8M
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Thanks for that link Mamacita.
  • RussRuss Shipmate
    anoesis wrote: »
    to reply, on your own behalf, with, "No, @Curiosity killed, it was not my intent to equate homosexuality with paedophilia.", on the other hand, is a single, comprehensible sentence, which would have let people know where you stand on the issue.

    OK, I'll try again.

    No, CK, that is not my view. I'm not equating the two categories, (which would be saying that "these people are all the same". )

    Quite the opposite. Reality is complex. I partly agree with your two categories, and to the extent that I don't it's because the distinction is over-simple.

    Better ?
    Also, Pope Francis does speak [heavily accented] English - along with a veritable plethora of other languages

    I fear I must apologise to His Holiness for exaggerating his lack of fluency in English.

    When I went to see him in the Phoenix Park, I had hoped for a few warm and inspiring words in English. He spoke at length in Italian, and none of the screens offering a translation was pointing in my direction. So I was writing from my own disappointment.

    But the more important point is that
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    it does depend on what the Pontiff actually meant.

    And it seems possible that what he meant and what the Guardian reported him as saying are two different things.
  • Russ wrote: »
    ...
    But the more important point is that
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    it does depend on what the Pontiff actually meant.

    And it seems possible that what he meant and what the Guardian reported him as saying are two different things.

    Maybe, if one is a vicious homophobic idiot incapable of reading for context. The Guardian translated/quoted the Pope saying, "In our societies, it even seems homosexuality is fashionable. And this mentality, in some way, also influences the life of the Church."

    Russ is arguing that whatever Spanish words the Pope used in that statement meant "pedophilia" but were translated by the Guardian to "homosexuality." That would mean that the Pope said pedophilia is fashionable in society and it is that external influence which causes priests to break their vow of celibacy, but the Guardian changed it.

    The original story in Corriere della sera is linked in the Guardian article and is at Francesco: «Omosessualità nel clero? Questione molto seria che mi preoccupa». My Italian is not as fluent as my Spanish, but the story uses both "ommosessualita" and "cultura gay". The Italian word "pedofilia" does not appear in the article; neither do the words ragazzo or bambino or adolescente.


  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    That's only because Russ is a duplicitous lying sack of troll.
  • Pope Francis, talking about abortion, is being quoted as saying that no human being can ever be incompatible with life. Is this a problem with translation, or does he really think this?
    Apparently it is the "culture of waste" which uses the term "incompatible with life."

    My baby was diagnosed by pre-natal scans with thanatophoric dysplasia, a type of dwarfism in which the rib cage is too small to allow the heart and lungs to develop. It is utterly incompatible with life; had my baby not died in utero, then the act of attempting to take his first breath might well have killed him, as his rib cage was too small to allow his lungs to inflate.

    https://vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2019-05/pope-francis-yest-to-life-conference-speech.html

    I will delay calling Pope Francis to Hell in the hope that someone can confirm that this is a mistranslation.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    ((NEQ))

    I don't know the answer.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    .
  • My guess is he thinks that the child is born, lives - but for a very short period - before they then die. Thus they have lived and then died, rather than never having lived at all.

    The wider point of the article seems to be a) we should and can do more to treat children with conditions previously looked on as fatal and b) selective abortion for disease and disability is a problem.
  • One of the problems with Francis' statement is reference to "family". There's a failure of family and a failure of community for so many people. It's not a gift for a poor single person to have a special needs child without any form of tangible support. The message is that you will be advised to adhere to our moral judgements at your own expense and we'll pray about your stress.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    I wonder when the Pope will recognize that the alleged moral duty to sustain human life in utero directly conflicts with the alleged moral duty to sustain human life ex utero? There are clearly emerging limits to planetary supplies of arable land and potable water, and the West has been busy poisoning both necessities for decades.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    And what, Pope Francis, have you to say about the fact that your church has spent more than $10 million lobbying against victims of child sex abuse?

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/catholic-church-scandal-spent-10-million-lobbyists-fight-extension-statutes-of-limitations-child-sex-abuse-vicims/?fbclid=IwAR3RxpWRtm8LhmFi9xetYks6w4UVGLclzQP2uCA4zexIAC3CAYKcqcKVaRU

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