Unused vestments?

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  • Elizabeth BennettElizabeth Bennett Shipmate Posts: 28
    It only came about after someone in the congregation died and her family ignored her wishes. Anyway lists are stored, one copy with will and one copy in church office. Several have even requested"Just say at my funeral what you said at Bill's " type of things.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    It is a really good idea which I'll mention to those who could well follow up.
  • The thing that makes funerals tricky is where there is a mismatch between the expectations of the family and the deceased. Churches, in particular, find it difficult when a much-loved members family decide to go with just a crematorium service and no church input.
  • I wonder whether that is sometimes due to financial considerations? Funerals are not cheap - I wonder whether it might it be that the families in question would rather not say out loud that they cannot afford a church funeral, cars etc?
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    Possibly, or it may simply be that the family has no idea of what might be involved with a 'church' funeral. There is, alas, some additional £££ involved, but not that much, given the overall cost of a funeral in Ukland these days...

    I conducted a funeral in church earlier this year for a long-standing member of our (former) choir and congregation. His family really didn't want too much in the way of religious stuff (!), but I did manage to persuade them (without too much trouble, in all fairness) that Dad would have wanted at least a couple of hymns, a Bible reading, and some prayers (which I took from the BCP, as that is what he would have been familiar with, in earlier times, anyway).

    I robed in cassock, cotta, and Blue Scarf, and was assisted by Madam Sacristan, also in cassock and cotta. Holy Water was duly sprinkled on the coffin at the beginning of the service, the hymns were sung with some gusto, and the burial duly took place in the local cemetery, accompanied by the BCP committal, and the casting of earth....

    IOW, we did what we would do by default for someone of that generation, and it all seemed to work quite well - at least, so the family said, and that's what matters. OTOH, if a full Funeral Mass had been requested, as happened in the case of our late churchwarden in 2016, we would have provided that.

    Apologies for the tangent, as we seem to have moved away from the question of unused vestments! At least ISTM that we agree that such vestments should not be allowed to languish uncared-for in vestries, or wherever, but should be looked after as the valuable assets that they are (or might become).
  • A friend of mine was recently working on her funeral plans (long story omitted), and has even specified the vestments to be worn-- she particularly likes a gold set belonging to the parish, which hasn't seen much use, and which she thinks would be preferable to the white which is sometimes these days used. She has specified this in her outline, along with hymns, readings etc. At her parish (and also at my own), they keep copies of funeral service plans/requests on file, and then pull them out when required. As her executor lives in another city and is not church-minded, she has told him that she has nominated one of her choir friends responsible for funeral stuff. I know this person, who is a Terror, and no cleric will defy her will. Well, not twice.
  • Jengie Jon wrote: »
    The thing that makes funerals tricky is where there is a mismatch between the expectations of the family and the deceased. Churches, in particular, find it difficult when a much-loved members family decide to go with just a crematorium service and no church input.
    We had a horrible situation where an elderly former choir member's husband died and the non-church attending daughters organised the funeral. It transpired they consulted their mother about nothing and the resultant event at the crematorium caused her almost more distress than the death itself. As she said, she had discussed it with him and he'd said she should have something that would be of comfort and meaning to her, but the daughters decided on something that was completely the opposite: so where the widow (and deceased) wanted church, it was crematorium; where they'd wanted Eternal Father, strong to save to mark his naval service, they chose Abide with me, and instead of a scripture reading they had Death is nothing at all which the widow found especially offensive.
    I wonder whether that is sometimes due to financial considerations? Funerals are not cheap - I wonder whether it might it be that the families in question would rather not say out loud that they cannot afford a church funeral, cars etc?
    There is a common misconception that funerals straight to the crematorium are cheaper than one with a service in church. I know that it can vary from area to area, but around here it is considerably cheaper to be buried that burned; and if you choose a "longer" crematorium slot (the standard is 25 minutes) then you pay a lot more for that too.
    ...lists are stored, one copy with will and one copy in church office...
    UK law is that for legal purposes the body becomes the property of the executor(s) and so it is up to them what happens to it. Although one can leave a letter with instructions/wishes, these have no force in law. In fact, I know of one case where the children of the first marriage point-blank refused to let the widow have the ashes of her husband, instead burying them with their mother.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    UK law is that for legal purposes the body becomes the property of the executor(s) and so it is up to them what happens to it. Although one can leave a letter with instructions/wishes, these have no force in law. In fact, I know of one case where the children of the first marriage point-blank refused to let the widow have the ashes of her husband, instead burying them with their mother.

    As is the position here. There has been a newspaper report recently where a court refused to allow a widow have sperm taken from her husband on the basis that there was no consent - being long vacation no reported decision yet that I can see.
  • I am not quite sure where Uk law stands but we do have this legal case. I suspect that Diane Blood might have been the executor in which case it is irrelevant.
  • Elizabeth BennettElizabeth Bennett Shipmate Posts: 28
    Funerals are a mine field is so many ways.
  • Another tangent, related both to unused vestments and funerals, but I hope not a tangent too far:

    Our still-relatively-new pastor, when going to find the church’s pall to cover a casket for a recent funeral—perhaps the first since she arrived at which a casket was in the church for the funeral—found that we have two palls. Along with the white one, there is a purple one. Presumably it predates the purchase of the white one and goes back to before white being considered the proper color for a funeral. The purple pall is quite attractive and appears to be in good shape.

    So, any thoughts on what to do with a pall that isn’t (in our way of doing things) appropriate to use for funerals anymore?
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    If you have both colours, I would have thought keep both. Presumably the colour should match the stoles. So if the officiant wears a purple stole, have the purple pall, and if a white stole, a white pall.

    Palls are a bit unusual here. At a family funeral when one person asked whether there should be a pall, the undertaker discouraged the request with the words 'Very London'.


    It's a slight over-simplification to say that the body becomes the property of ones executor(s). For a start, nobody can really own your body in the way you own your dog or your car. Also, if the deceased did not leave a will, nobody has the power to deal with property until whoever is entitled to do so takes out letters of administration. Even the executors only hold the deceased's assets as trustees with an obligation to collect them in, pay off debts and distribute according to the will. They are though, under a primary obligation which takes precedence over everything else, to arrange for the proper disposal of the body.

    In that, then unless the instructions are impossible or there isn't going to be enough money to pay for them, they are expected to comply with the deceased's instructions. However, if they are don't, then unless they overspend, and by that time it has happened, there isn't actually much any of the family can really do about it.

    If the deceased did not leave any instructions, or if somebody didn't like them and has concealed them, it is the executors who have the final say on what happens.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    If you have both colours, I would have thought keep both. Presumably the colour should match the stoles. So if the officiant wears a purple stole, have the purple pall, and if a white stole, a white pall.
    Sure, but the thing is purple will never be used for funerals among my tribe these days. Never. Even in Lent, the color for a funeral, which our liturgical documents call the “Service of Witness to the Resurrection,” is always white.

    So it’s not really a matter of holding onto the purple pall for those occasions when purple is otherwise used—whether for the minister’s stole or the paraments—at the funeral. There will not be such an occasion. Purple has not been used for funerals among my tribe for 50 years or more.

  • Then throw it out, or send it to a museum. At the end of the day, it's just a "thing".
  • Yes, but it is a beautiful, well-made thing—a thing that we’re wondering if we could repurpose in some way.
  • If you have a church open day, it's worth having these things to display and discuss, about how churches are changing and why, what other things may change in the future, how people feel about change.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Yes, but it is a beautiful, well-made thing—a thing that we’re wondering if we could repurpose in some way.

    Could it perhaps be incorporated into how you mark Good Friday?
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Yes, but it is a beautiful, well-made thing—a thing that we’re wondering if we could repurpose in some way.

    Could it perhaps be incorporated into how you mark Good Friday?

    Well, perhaps (Easter Sepulchres, anyone?) - but is there maybe another local church (of another denomination) which might be able to use it, even if only occasionally? If it is beautiful and well-made, it surely should be passed on....

  • If you have a church open day, it's worth having these things to display and discuss, about how churches are changing and why, what other things may change in the future, how people feel about change.
    Hmmm. Church Open Days aren’t a thing around here—I’d never heard of them until reading about them on the Ship. Maybe it’s something we should explore.
    Could it perhaps be incorporated into how you mark Good Friday?
    That’s actually close to what I’ve been wondering, whether use could somehow be made during Holy Week. I’ll keep pondering on that.
    Well, perhaps (Easter Sepulchres, anyone?) - but is there maybe another local church (of another denomination) which might be able to use it, even if only occasionally? If it is beautiful and well-made, it surely should be passed on....
    Easter Sepulchres and Easter Gardens are yet more things that I’d never heard of until the Ship—I remember having to ask what they are—and have never seen done here. Again, maybe something to explore.

    As for other churches, I did think of that. But the reality here, I think, is that nobody uses purple for funerals anymore, at least as far as I can tell. I only see white at Episcopal*, Lutheran and Catholic funerals these days. Ditto Methodists. My hunch is that if anyone sometimes uses purple, they already have a purple pall. But it is probably worth asking around.

    Many thanks all!

    * Anglo-Catholic parishes are very rare in these parts.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    Well, the Easter Sepulchre is (or was) very much a mediaeval thing in Ukland, though certain vestiges of the rite remain....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Sepulchre

    Easter Gardens? - perhaps a more recent innovation, but material for another thread next year, I think!
  • john holdingjohn holding Ecclesiantics Host, Mystery Worshipper Host
    Could it be repurposed as a wall- hanging or tapestry?
  • Old St Paul's in Wellington, NZ, has several sets in drawers you can take a look at. A beautiful church; well worth a look.

    But I thought denizens of Ecclesiantics may be interested in the typo on the last line of the explanatory text.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Obviously the author had been to Moore College. Teaching there is that almost everything but particularly a traditional vestment, is immoral.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    As a total aside, but not technically a tangent, I was shocked recently to discover that mothballs are illegal in kiwiland.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Zappa wrote: »
    As a total aside, but not technically a tangent, I was shocked recently to discover that mothballs are illegal in kiwiland.
    They are?!? What's the reason? (Something to do with chemicals?)

  • It's the same throughout the European Union, unless they're made without the carcinogenic ingredients.
  • If the PCC permits it, you might want to contact an Anglican Diocese in Africa or other poorer country.

    While I have yet to retire my personal vestments, I am down-sizing my library. I have sent some of my books to an African Seminary and will send others to a Seminary in Papua, New Guinea.
  • Still retaining them at present, though hopefully getting them cleaned and stored, thanks.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    If the PCC permits it, you might want to contact an Anglican Diocese in Africa or other poorer country.

    While I have yet to retire my personal vestments, I am down-sizing my library. I have sent some of my books to an African Seminary and will send others to a Seminary in Papua, New Guinea.

    I think that is very sad. Sad that seminaries in Africa and PNG are so poor that they want probably not very current western theology, rather than write their own or buy what they might really want to study.
  • Cathscats wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    If the PCC permits it, you might want to contact an Anglican Diocese in Africa or other poorer country.

    While I have yet to retire my personal vestments, I am down-sizing my library. I have sent some of my books to an African Seminary and will send others to a Seminary in Papua, New Guinea.

    I think that is very sad. Sad that seminaries in Africa and PNG are so poor that they want probably not very current western theology, rather than write their own or buy what they might really want to study.

    I somewhat agree with you, they do have to develop their own theology, but they also need the ability to see how the church at large has addressed the concerns they are considering for themselves.
  • So are they going to redefine Christianity to suit their own whims? 2000 years of theology, some painfully hammered out, just to be tossed aside because after all they're not Europeans (as if Christianity started in Europe but don't get me started) so they should just roll their own?
  • mousethief wrote: »
    So are they going to redefine Christianity to suit their own whims? 2000 years of theology, some painfully hammered out, just to be tossed aside because after all they're not Europeans (as if Christianity started in Europe but don't get me started) so they should just roll their own?
    Not necessarily what Gramps49 was suggesting, I don’t think.

  • The Reformed requirement that the Gospel be preached to the current context in each generation in fresh obedience to the Word of God.
  • AmosAmos Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Yes, but it is a beautiful, well-made thing—a thing that we’re wondering if we could repurpose in some way.

    See if some other church would like it. There's one church in Cambridge that has a purple pall and it is in great demand by other churches, Fisher House, and the Colleges for funerals. If yours is well-made and of decent material, it's certain that someone will gladly take it off your hands.

    To return to the OP--my predecessor never wore more than surplice and scarf, and so the vestments in the presses in all the churches went unworn for SEVEN YEARS. For the last seven, they've all been in use again, apart from some very long copes, which we'll have to have cleaned before a very tall curate arrives.
  • Copes are an Abomination Before The Lord - heavy, awkward, and of no practical utility.

    IMHO, but YMMV.

    I do actually speak from experience, having once or twice been required to wear one.

    (On reflection, @Amos, they may be of some value, so cleaning/conservation might not go amiss.)
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Copes are an Abomination Before The Lord - heavy, awkward, and of no practical utility.

    IMHO, but YMMV.

    I do actually speak from experience, having once or twice been required to wear one.

    (On reflection, @Amos, they may be of some value, so cleaning/conservation might not go amiss.)

    But they are legal in Sydney and that is a great value.
  • Ah well, fair point. Needs must....
    :wink:
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