The Split from Labour.
Seven MPs have decided to leave Labour. Whilst I admire their choice to follow their conscience; their constituents voted for Labour not an independent group. There will be no by-election. Surely there should be do their constituents mean nothing to them. If you are unhappy by all means leave don’t stay were you unhappy. But don’t still be MP as people voted for your party not you:
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Nope, people voted for individual politicians. That is the system.
Some people vote for a person and some for a party.
In any case, MPs are not sent to Parliament as delegates of the "winning" party, they are sent to represent the interests of all their constituents, regardless of how those people voted. It could (should?) be argued that we have had many, many instances where MPs following their party line have knowingly acted directly against the interests of their constituents.
I suppose it means if a general election were called at the last minute, they could stand against a labour party candidate - but that's about it. I think it is its somewhat dishonest to complain about the leadership not going all out to stop Brexit, when delivering Brexit is in the manifesto *they* campaigned on in the last general election - arguably that would have been the time to stand independently on that point of principle.
Ahem.
I'm not particularly enamoured of Mr. Corbyn (I belong to another left-wing party, not his), but I do sympathise with him. He needs this sort of ruction like he needs a hole in his head.
However, bearing in mind that Labour has only suspended an MP who has been convicted of a criminal offence I think any party support for a move to force a by-election for the splitters would be dreadful PR and show nothing other than vindictiveness.
In the case of Luciana Berger in particular, any attempt by the official party machine to force her out is going to be one enormous headache, bearing in mind the antisemitic abuse she has suffered from people in her constituency party about which central party officials have done nothing. The latest attack detailed in this week's Jewish Chronicle shows just what she has had to deal with, while Mr Corbyn and his Wykehamist stooges either repeat non-sequiturs about anti-racism or deny there is any kind of problem.
*Or fucking stupid if you would rather.
** OK, I won't. But I wish I could.
(Yes I am aware of the newspaper’s reputation but the figures are a matter of public record, and this is the briefest summary I could find.)
(One of the given reasons for leaving.)
Well, I think the pithy analysis of David Aaronovitch, published here does the job nicely.
Of course, I could put you in touch with my great nephew who has experienced first-hand rampant anti-semitism after he turned up at a Labour Party meeting straight from a family funeral having forgotten to remove his kippah.
While we have people like Mr Corbyn as leader of Labour there is no hope of rooting out anti-semitism - not when he fails to understand what a wreath-laying is, doesn't recognise jewish stereotypes in a mural, and doesn't get that there are jewish Palestinians.
Momentum is essentially acting as a troll factory, jumping all over anyone who is not immediately supportive of Corbyn, and unfortunately some of the most vocal critics have been known to use anti-Semitic slurs.
And because there is a general attitude of not-rocking-the-boat (particularly with regard to Momentum, which isn't an exact overlap for Labour membership) then "dealing with it" is either really slow or impossible to deliver.
Everyone votes for an individual politician - and the party to which that individual belongs is normally the determining factor. This is the same argument that Orfeo uses when people say that they voted for Rudd (etc) to be PM - they don't, but they rely upon the candidate for whom they in fact voted to support Rudd in the post-election party room vote.
The Westminster system was set up before there were such things as political parties. Individuals stand for geographical constituencies and electors choose from them.
If people think they are voting for parties, they're just plain wrong.
I accept mps get a lot of abuse on Twitter. I accept there are some anti semites in a party of over half a million members. I do not accept that all the abuse mps get is from party members, or even most of it. Nor do I accept that most labour members are anti-Semitic, what research there is suggests they are slightly less likely to be so than the general public or members of other political parties. There is a disciplinary process it takes time.
What seems foolish to me is to leave the one party (on this basis) within reach of power most likely *not* to dismantle equality and anti-discrimination legislation at the first opportunity. Whilst meanwhile the Tory government contains people like Jacob Rees Mogg who was on tv defending concentration camps *this week*.
Momentum has about 40,000 members, who since it changed its structure are required to be labour members to be in Momentum. The Labour Party has over 500,000 members. Jon Landesman who founded it, was raised in an Orthodox Jewish family and as a young man spent time on a Kibbutz. I don’t think anti-semetism is his driving force.
FWIW, although Len McCluskey is an odious little twerp, I think he did have a point to say that it is somewhat hypocritical on the one hand to call for a second referendum on the grounds that things have changed - but not to call for a by-election when things definitely have changed. I know there is no constitutional need for a by-election but there is no constitutional need for a second referendum either.
I have no goose in this fight - not being a Labour member nor ever being a Labour member. And I'd note that I've been called various names for having a generally positive attitude to Palestinians.
That said, I don't think anyone is suggesting that most Labour members are anti-Semitic. The problem is that when labour members clearly are using anti-Semitic slurs, it takes far too long to do anything and creates the perception that the machinery actually cannot or will not do anything.
Ok but I don't think they are suggesting that other parties are better. They've just said that they can't tolerate being in the Labour party any longer.
I don't think that high profile Jews actually prevent institutional anti-Semitism in Momentum.
If it isn't actually a group which tolerates anti-Semitism, then it really must be incredibly ineffective and chaotic in terms of leadership - given that it doesn't appear to be able to do anything significant about it.
And Luciana Berger didn't have a police escort at the Labour conference, the officers just followed her because they wanted her autograph.
As per that link, a recall petition can only be triggered if an MP is jailed or corrupt, and it is triggered by the Speaker. There is no mechanism that I know of by which a party can trigger a by-election.
Did you read the part where I said the numbers don't matter?
You seem to be suggesting that with a large number of people like in Momentum then shit happens, deal with it.
Whereas some people actually believe it might be nice if Momentum grew some backbone and did something more significant about it before anyone needs to complain.
(Slightly long read, sorry...)
The point made above about how easy a charge it is to lay is also important: it has become the equivalent of when did you stop beating your wife?
AFZ
Well no, she didn't have an escort at conference. She had an escort outside of conference and there is nothing to suggest anyone in the party was responsible for her feeling the need to have one. Besides, Berger smearing her opponents as anti-semites is nothing new. She's been at it since NUS. She certainly gets genuine anti-semitic abuse too, which makes her behaviour all the more troubling.
Of course one could turn that around - if one is constantly subject to anti-Semitic abuse then it becomes quite difficult to tell the difference between someone being anti-Semitic and someone else being generally offensive, someone else being a troll and someone else picking a political fight in a vociferous way. I'm sure it makes life quite hard to navigate.
Which for me is why anything that sounds even vaguely anti-Semitic should be off the table. Calling someone a something something Zionist might actually be accurate - but it is fairly easy to mistake for an anti-Semitic slur even if it isn't.
No my point is twofold; one a small percentage of a large number will be a high absolute number - and therefore processing will take time, and secondly that no human system will be perfect and most systems with a less than 1% fuck up rate would be considered to be operating with a high rate of success.
I am asking you what you would consider a realistic standard would be.
Systematic / instutional bias tends to imply a higher than normal rate of prejudice - I don’t think that has been evidenced for either Labour or Momentum.
Of course. It was a total coincidence that the party conference happened to take place at the same time as she experienced these feelings.
And wasn't it nice of Merseyside Police to provide officers purely in response to her feelings!
That was the criticism made of the Macpherson Report, wasn't it?
What winds me up about this issue is that the people who are most gung-ho about how accusations of anti-Semitism are all politically inspired lies are the very same people who would be most concerned about listening to the voices of minority groups when they describe the discrimination they face.
I think if a bunch of black left-wing MPs in the Blair years had complained about racial discrimination, and Alistair Campbell had said they were just Old Labour dinosaurs who couldn't cope with the fact that Blair won elections, then Momentumites would rightly be horrified at that response even if those MPs' complaints proved to be of little substance.
Well y'know you can believe whatever you like. I think it is fairly clear that Momentum has "gone after" opponents and that this has included an easily seen element of anti-Semitism.
I'm not sure it really makes a whole lot of difference what the levels of comparable anti-Semitism in the Tory party, the Lib-dems or the National Trust are - because Jewish members of those groups don't tend to experience a trolling effort like Momentum.
Added to that, it seems like it has been a stated objective of Momentum to deselect - or generally force out - sitting MPs that are not supportive of their agenda. So it seems more-than-slightly ironic when some of the MPs that gave been in the crossfires of these efforts finally jump and are then described as being the problem.
Momentum forced them out - own it.
You say all this as if it's accepted fact. Momentum has done none of the things you claim.
Oh ok. So they don't go around in packs trolling anyone who disagrees with them. Got it.
If you think they do, prove it.
No it's ok, I have eyes thanks.
It's a fair point. But then I'm not convinced that any serious person is 'gun-ho' about antisemitism. But it does seem to be an incredibly powerful attack on the party.
As I said in my long blog post last year, it is more complex than that.
AFZ
AFAIAC there should be a by-election as the circumstances of our he vote has changed.
It has happened so many times in the past that it is surprising that anyone is surprised.
I doubt they will have to wait long for an election anyway, so standing down would be essentially pointless.