The Split from Labour.

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Comments

  • I'm surprised at how common the themes are, Labour should be 10 points ahead, Corbyn is a liability, and so on. But most of the media are anti Corbyn, especially the Guardian.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    edited February 2019
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    So to extend my OP 3 Conservative MPs have split. Not as much damage as Labour but bad enough at the moment.
    I agree with a commentator on the BBC this morning. Yes we pick a person not a party but the choice has changed. A by-election would be best.

    That's right - because the overwhelming precedent (4 by-elections from 69 party defections by MPs since 1945) is overwhelming.
    A, I am entitled to my opinion and I stand by it.

    B, As the rules do not allow for an automatic by-election under these circumstances your facts may be correct but do not prove that a by-election is not a better option.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    I agree with AFZ. Corbyn has tried to hold the government’s accountable for things like the state of the NHS and Universal Credit. Treeza has been criticised for at heart being a remainer and that that has had an influence on how she deals with Brexit. Corby is at heart a leaver. Would he not be accused of the same, only the other way round if you understand me?
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    I’m not sure Corbyn is a leaver at heart and therein lies part of the problem.
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    edited February 2019
    Hugal wrote: »
    I agree with AFZ. Corbyn has tried to hold the government’s accountable for things like the state of the NHS and Universal Credit. Treeza has been criticised for at heart being a remainer and that that has had an influence on how she deals with Brexit. Corby is at heart a leaver. Would he not be accused of the same, only the other way round if you understand me?

    And as ever, the popular press is more concerned with what Corbyn did thirty odd years ago than what the government is doing right now. I'm probably not exagerrating to say that Austerity killed more people than died in The Troubles.
  • mr cheesy wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    So that would be the current labour manifesto then

    Or maybe it is that one could conceivably be a socialist without supporting Corbyn. That there could be more than one way to be a socialist in British politics.

    Like in almost every other European country.

    Exactly.

    Name six.

    The Netherlands has four socialist parties, France has at least three.

    What do you think you are gaining from this that you couldn't learn yourself with Wikipedia?

    See, I made the assumption that you were actually talking about socialism, rather than a party that has the name "socialist" in it. If you think the "Democratic Republic of North Korea" is actually a democratic republic just because that is its official title, I have an excellent and only infrequently used bridge that you may be interested in buying.

    As you like to blather about educating oneself, I think you will find Thunderbunk's post above useful. If a party claims to be "Labour" but espouses the same tired old neoliberal thinking that led directly to the GFC (and will lead there again, as sure as night follows day), if it is concerned only with price control rather than unemployment, if it is always banging on about "creating markets" as if that is going to solve anything at all (it hasn't yet) rather than accepting its responsibility to advocate for legislative action in regard to challenges such as welfare and climate change, and if it isn't concerned with tax and economic reform to ensure that the haves don't continue to exploit the have-nots, then it is as much a genuine labour party as McDonald's is a genuine restaurant.

    Fuck off. Suddenly you are an expert on European socialism? Oh ok then. So which of the parties in the Netherlands are the One True Socialists? Which out of Labour and Sinn Féin are the "true Socialists" in the RoI? Which out of the multiple communists, workers, centre left, left centrist, socialist liberal and liberal socialist (excluding for the sake of argument the actual "Socialists") in France are the True Party?

    I mean, seriously.

    You pontificate about how there is more than one way to be socialist, can't provide a single example when challenged, and now are just hoping to bluster your way through as normal? I mean, seriously. You utter plank. Fuck off yourself, and take the inane Organist with you.
  • mr cheesy wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    So that would be the current labour manifesto then

    Or maybe it is that one could conceivably be a socialist without supporting Corbyn. That there could be more than one way to be a socialist in British politics.

    Like in almost every other European country.

    Exactly.

    Name six.

    The Netherlands has four socialist parties, France has at least three.

    What do you think you are gaining from this that you couldn't learn yourself with Wikipedia?

    See, I made the assumption that you were actually talking about socialism, rather than a party that has the name "socialist" in it. If you think the "Democratic Republic of North Korea" is actually a democratic republic just because that is its official title, I have an excellent and only infrequently used bridge that you may be interested in buying.

    As you like to blather about educating oneself, I think you will find Thunderbunk's post above useful. If a party claims to be "Labour" but espouses the same tired old neoliberal thinking that led directly to the GFC (and will lead there again, as sure as night follows day), if it is concerned only with price control rather than unemployment, if it is always banging on about "creating markets" as if that is going to solve anything at all (it hasn't yet) rather than accepting its responsibility to advocate for legislative action in regard to challenges such as welfare and climate change, and if it isn't concerned with tax and economic reform to ensure that the haves don't continue to exploit the have-nots, then it is as much a genuine labour party as McDonald's is a genuine restaurant.

    Fuck off. Suddenly you are an expert on European socialism? Oh ok then. So which of the parties in the Netherlands are the One True Socialists? Which out of Labour and Sinn Féin are the "true Socialists" in the RoI? Which out of the multiple communists, workers, centre left, left centrist, socialist liberal and liberal socialist (excluding for the sake of argument the actual "Socialists") in France are the True Party?

    I mean, seriously.

    You pontificate about how there is more than one way to be socialist, can't provide a single example when challenged, and now are just hoping to bluster your way through as normal? I mean, seriously. You utter plank. Fuck off yourself, and take the inane Organist with you.

    What, so you can't answer about Labour and Sinn Féin in the RoI? Or just can't be bothered?
  • mr cheesy wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    So that would be the current labour manifesto then

    Or maybe it is that one could conceivably be a socialist without supporting Corbyn. That there could be more than one way to be a socialist in British politics.

    Like in almost every other European country.

    Exactly.

    Name six.

    The Netherlands has four socialist parties, France has at least three.

    What do you think you are gaining from this that you couldn't learn yourself with Wikipedia?

    See, I made the assumption that you were actually talking about socialism, rather than a party that has the name "socialist" in it. If you think the "Democratic Republic of North Korea" is actually a democratic republic just because that is its official title, I have an excellent and only infrequently used bridge that you may be interested in buying.

    As you like to blather about educating oneself, I think you will find Thunderbunk's post above useful. If a party claims to be "Labour" but espouses the same tired old neoliberal thinking that led directly to the GFC (and will lead there again, as sure as night follows day), if it is concerned only with price control rather than unemployment, if it is always banging on about "creating markets" as if that is going to solve anything at all (it hasn't yet) rather than accepting its responsibility to advocate for legislative action in regard to challenges such as welfare and climate change, and if it isn't concerned with tax and economic reform to ensure that the haves don't continue to exploit the have-nots, then it is as much a genuine labour party as McDonald's is a genuine restaurant.

    Fuck off. Suddenly you are an expert on European socialism? Oh ok then. So which of the parties in the Netherlands are the One True Socialists? Which out of Labour and Sinn Féin are the "true Socialists" in the RoI? Which out of the multiple communists, workers, centre left, left centrist, socialist liberal and liberal socialist (excluding for the sake of argument the actual "Socialists") in France are the True Party?

    I mean, seriously.

    You pontificate about how there is more than one way to be socialist, can't provide a single example when challenged, and now are just hoping to bluster your way through as normal? I mean, seriously. You utter plank. Fuck off yourself, and take the inane Organist with you.

    What, so you can't answer about Labour and Sinn Féin in the RoI? Or just can't be bothered?

    Just to be clear: I ask you for an example of socialist leaders in Europe, and you want ... what? Me to answer my own question? I suppose that's consistent, as you also wanted me to chase up the evidence for your assertions in the first place.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    Where I live we have “The Socialist Party” (clue's in the name, although I grant they are rather in the doldrums of late), Comrade Melenchon’s France Insoumise, a bona fide Communist Party – and I feel like some other hard left party is floating on the edge of my consciousness that I can’t remember at the minute. Oh, Front de Gauche, although I'm not sure they're still a thing.

    You really want to argue that none of them are really socialists?
  • mr cheesy wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    So that would be the current labour manifesto then

    Or maybe it is that one could conceivably be a socialist without supporting Corbyn. That there could be more than one way to be a socialist in British politics.

    Like in almost every other European country.

    Exactly.

    Name six.

    The Netherlands has four socialist parties, France has at least three.

    What do you think you are gaining from this that you couldn't learn yourself with Wikipedia?

    See, I made the assumption that you were actually talking about socialism, rather than a party that has the name "socialist" in it. If you think the "Democratic Republic of North Korea" is actually a democratic republic just because that is its official title, I have an excellent and only infrequently used bridge that you may be interested in buying.

    As you like to blather about educating oneself, I think you will find Thunderbunk's post above useful. If a party claims to be "Labour" but espouses the same tired old neoliberal thinking that led directly to the GFC (and will lead there again, as sure as night follows day), if it is concerned only with price control rather than unemployment, if it is always banging on about "creating markets" as if that is going to solve anything at all (it hasn't yet) rather than accepting its responsibility to advocate for legislative action in regard to challenges such as welfare and climate change, and if it isn't concerned with tax and economic reform to ensure that the haves don't continue to exploit the have-nots, then it is as much a genuine labour party as McDonald's is a genuine restaurant.

    Fuck off. Suddenly you are an expert on European socialism? Oh ok then. So which of the parties in the Netherlands are the One True Socialists? Which out of Labour and Sinn Féin are the "true Socialists" in the RoI? Which out of the multiple communists, workers, centre left, left centrist, socialist liberal and liberal socialist (excluding for the sake of argument the actual "Socialists") in France are the True Party?

    I mean, seriously.

    You pontificate about how there is more than one way to be socialist, can't provide a single example when challenged, and now are just hoping to bluster your way through as normal? I mean, seriously. You utter plank. Fuck off yourself, and take the inane Organist with you.

    What, so you can't answer about Labour and Sinn Féin in the RoI? Or just can't be bothered?

    Just to be clear: I ask you for an example of socialist leaders in Europe, and you want ... what? Me to answer my own question? I suppose that's consistent, as you also wanted me to chase up the evidence for your assertions in the first place.

    No actually you asked for evidence when I said there are more than one socialist party in most European countries.

    You are a sealion. Well done.
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    edited February 2019
    You pontificate about how there is more than one way to be socialist, can't provide a single example when challenged, and now are just hoping to bluster your way through as normal? I mean, seriously. You utter plank. Fuck off yourself, and take the inane Organist with you.

    I suppose we could quote Alexis Tsipras, although he's been forced to cut his coat to the Euro pattern, and Greek politics is ever hard to understand.

    Sorry if my inanity gets to you - although of course if it were Lent you could "offer it up".

  • Where I live we have “The Socialist Party” (clue's in the name, although I grant they are rather in the doldrums of late), Comrade Melenchon’s France Insoumise, a bona fide Communist Party – and I feel like some other hard left party is floating on the edge of my consciousness that I can’t remember at the minute. Oh, Front de Gauche, although I'm not sure they're still a thing.

    You really want to argue that none of them are really socialists?

    I do not. I am not really interested in going down the the No True Scotsman road I embarked upon any further. I was curious if cheezles or the organist had anything more than dislike for Corbyn going on, or if they actually knew of any alternative visions of socialism held by leaders of major political parties on the continent. Thinly disguised neoliberalism (or completely undusguised, as per New Labour) masquerading as "centre-left" - there is an oxymoron if ever there was one - is a waste of time at best. It is certainly all we are ever offered down here, other than by minor parties.
  • You pontificate about how there is more than one way to be socialist, can't provide a single example when challenged, and now are just hoping to bluster your way through as normal? I mean, seriously. You utter plank. Fuck off yourself, and take the inane Organist with you.

    I suppose we could quote Alexis Tsipras, although he's been forced to cut his coat to the Euro pattern, and Greek politics is ever hard to understand.

    Sorry if my inanity gets to you - although of course if it were Lent you could "offer it up".

    Only if you are a person of mean understanding - Syriza cut Greece's throat in the end. Yes, they talked a big game re ending austerity, and ironically a Grexit was the only thing that was ever going to end austerity in Greece (which is quite different from the UK situation in that respect), but then rolled over and let the troika have its way.

    How are you not essentially asking for socialism in Britain to cut its own throat here, because you don't like the leader? Cheezles is just a contrary deadshit, but you have expressed political views here that will never be achieved under neoliberalism as usual, which is all New Labour and its douche-zombie supporters know.
  • DooneDoone Shipmate

    P
  • @Doone - something got lost, somewhere!
    :wink:
  • DooneDoone Shipmate
    Wrong thread 😱!
This discussion has been closed.