Church of England lifts 400-year-old rule on mandatory Sunday services

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Comments

  • Does anyone know of an 'All Age' service which works well? If so, in what ways?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    But why do you say that? It assumes that the All-Age service is the one to which younger people will gravitate. AIUI, they don't any more than their parents do. Most prefer a traditional liturgy in modern language. Our young people are very happy with the same service that their parents attend
  • In my experience, the All Age service is enjoyed and pushed by people who have the same beliefs and worship styles as members of other churches, (Baptist, Elim Pentecostal, Kingdom Faith)*, but choose to remain in the CofE as it's a bigger church in which to wield their influence.

    I'm not sure what happens when enough people who are happier with the traditional churches leave and stop attending church entirely, leaving the CofE reduced to the same size as those churches.

    * no Kingdom Faith in this area but a group attend Faith Camp every year - "to be fed in their faith"
    * Elim here is tiny
    * No Baptist church in town, but there is one in the next town over.
  • Darda wrote: »
    Once a month, our "main" Sunday service is all age. Not my favourite service, but I always try to be there to show that our church is one worshipping community. How must the youngsters feel if our absence makes them think they are not valued? By the same reasoning, I will sometimes attend the more traditional earlier communion service mainly frequented by our more elderly members.
    This. I wish more people would take the same generous attitude.

  • Gee D wrote: »
    But why do you say that? It assumes that the All-Age service is the one to which younger people will gravitate. AIUI, they don't any more than their parents do. Most prefer a traditional liturgy in modern language. Our young people are very happy with the same service that their parents attend

    In my experience All Age Worship is more about preferred worship style than age. Some people of any age like the more formal liturgy, while others like the more informal.
    Its personal preference not age.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    Zacchaeus wrote: »
    In my experience All Age Worship is more about preferred worship style than age. Some people of any age like the more formal liturgy, while others like the more informal. Its personal preference not age.
    I'm sure you're right. Point us, though, Darda is willing to attend a monthly service s/he doesn't really like as a way of supporting visitors and children, people who prefer to worship in a different way, those leading worship and the church community as a whole. Too many of us say (and it needn't be about All-age services), "It doesn't 'do it' for me, so I'm not going". To me that seems very self-centred; indeed, it may be good for them to attend as they will broaden their experience.

    If a church's regular worship style doesn't suit you, that's a different matter.

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    Come over to the Dark Side..er...Our Place, where the weekly Parish Mass* seems to be happily attended by a growing (yes! At last! Thank you, Lord!) congregation ranging from 6 months (!) to 95...

    (*C of E with Carflick bits, accompanied by a mixture of 'trad' and 'modern' hymns).

    Of course, peeps turn up from time to time for whom this is not their preferred style of worship, in which case (if we become aware of this) we signpost them to the charismatic-evo church to the west, or the MOTR church to the east! Or even to the flourishing Baptist Church in the town centre..... :wink:
  • But in a town with RC, URC, Methodist, Quaker, Elim Pentecostal and CofE churches, surely there is no need for all the churches to provide the same style of service?

    I understand that provision of a monthly All Age service when there are not alternatives within walking distance, or for a lay-led all-age Service of the Word when the clergy cannot rota to be at that church that Sunday as it is part of a multi-benefice parish, also lay-led Mattins, but am not sure why the drive to provide these services and encourage everyone to attend when the rest of the congregation are saying they are not interested.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    But in a town with RC, URC, Methodist, Quaker, Elim Pentecostal and CofE churches, surely there is no need for all the churches to provide the same style of service?

    I understand that provision of a monthly All Age service when there are not alternatives within walking distance, or for a lay-led all-age Service of the Word when the clergy cannot rota to be at that church that Sunday as it is part of a multi-benefice parish, also lay-led Mattins, but am not sure why the drive to provide these services and encourage everyone to attend when the rest of the congregation are saying they are not interested.

    I take the point, of course. But many churches have their own "fringe" of folk (eg mums and toddlers, Scouts & Guides, playgroup and the like; even a neighbouring school). Many of these folk would see it as "their" church rather than any other; I think that the All-age services are an attempt to connect quite specifically with these rather than with Joe Public in general.

  • Yes, that is so (though I also take Curiosity killed's point).

    Alas, it seems that the 'All Age Service' (or whatever you call it) ends up as a rather poor relation to the Sunday Eucharist (or whatever you call it).

    We've had these discussions here before, of course.

    It often boils down to 'Do Whatever You Do Do, Well'!

    IYSWIM.
  • I fear that some Thoroughbreds Old Nags may be lying down and preparing to die...
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I think I have decided not to go to my church tomorrow morning, as it is All-Age Worship, not that there will be more than two or three families there, plus some of the older folk who like it / can bear it.
    Trouble is, from end of March it is going to be All-Age every week, including Communion on two out of four Sundays. All in a contemporary style, probably no organ, no procession, clergy not robed ( though the choir refuse to abandon theirs).
    My contention is that this approach is not going to suddenly fill the pews, and will definitely put some off.
  • Zacchaeus wrote: »
    In my experience All Age Worship is more about preferred worship style than age. Some people of any age like the more formal liturgy, while others like the more informal. Its personal preference not age.
    I'm sure you're right. Point us, though, Darda is willing to attend a monthly service s/he doesn't really like as a way of supporting visitors and children, people who prefer to worship in a different way, those leading worship and the church community as a whole. Too many of us say (and it needn't be about All-age services), "It doesn't 'do it' for me, so I'm not going". To me that seems very self-centred; indeed, it may be good for them to attend as they will broaden their experience.

    If a church's regular worship style doesn't suit you, that's a different matter.

    It is a good point - though I was replying Gee d's comment about age
  • But there is quite often a problem reported here with ministers who insist that the congregation fits in with their ideas of what the church should be like, particularly if they are imposing their view on that congregation without consultation.

    I suspect that all that happens is that the young families don't start coming and those who had been supporting the church for years stop coming, adding to the numbers of church attendees dropping. If the midweek services are surviving and doing better than the Sunday services, maybe it is because those services are simpler without the bands?
  • Or simply at more convenient times.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    But there is quite often a problem reported here with ministers who insist that the congregation fits in with their ideas of what the church should be like, particularly if they are imposing their view on that congregation without consultation.

    I suspect that all that happens is that the young families don't start coming and those who had been supporting the church for years stop coming, adding to the numbers of church attendees dropping. If the midweek services are surviving and doing better than the Sunday services, maybe it is because those services are simpler without the bands?
    Yes. For those of us to whom the traditional liturgy is important, and who approach Deity through great music, attending an "all-age service" would be penitential in the extreme. Having to do it on a regular basis would be downright hellish.

    (When I was a kid, in the golden age of "relevance," I wanted nothing to do with most of the trendy crap lobbed our way in church. My own children were the same way. There are reasons that we have traditions.)

  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    We tended to avoid family services as our child didn’t like them; she found the content boring and was wary of being asked to participate. I do go to them now (usually as the organist) though there are often few children there, and I sometimes wonder if lazy assumptions are being made about what children enjoy.
  • How interesting. So in the pretext of being child friendly, some adults change the service according to their own or to minority tastes, or add things which they think children will like, without ever consulting the children?
  • Yes, my daughter hated both these all age services and the Sunday School.

    She wanted to stay in the service and would have happily joined the choir, if the same little cadre hadn't insisted that she came out to Sunday School and "proper teaching" (which my daughter thought was dumbed down and nonsense, aged 10). She would read the church inscriptions and hymn book if she got bored in the sermon and would ask all sorts of things afterwards about things she'd looked at.

    Ask most children over the age of about 5 if they like action songs or if they find them embarrassing. See how many All-Age Services insist on action songs.
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    CK - exactly the same for us. Except that I managed to support my daughter’s right to remain in the service if she wished to do so.

    When she was about 12 and we were in a different parish, I was organizing a monthly Sunday night series called “Faith and...” where a member of the congregation would give a short talk on how their faith related to their job or some other aspect of their lives, followed by questions and discussion. She volunteered to do a talk called “Faith and the Kid Delusion”. The reference to Richard Dawkins was deliberate; her argument was that children’s activities in church are based on an artificial idea of what a child is like, and bears very little relation to what some of them actually think or want. Not surprisingly, this did not go down well with one of the Sunday school teachers who turned up to the talk.
    Possibly most children love Sunday school and all-age services; I haven’t personally had an opportunity to ask them.
  • Darda wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    I can well understand that you'd not want to go to the All-Age service - all physical ages it may be (but only may).
    Once a month, our "main" Sunday service is all age. Not my favourite service, but I always try to be there to show that our church is one worshipping community. How must the youngsters feel if our absence makes them think they are not valued? By the same reasoning, I will sometimes attend the more traditional earlier communion service mainly frequented by our more elderly members.
    Its not the youngsters that the refugees object to, its the dumbed down pap that purports to be a liturgy. One of the "refugees" is in fact only 15 years old but gave up on the "All-Age" thing 3 years ago.

    As for the younger element feeling "valued" - how do they get to feel "valued" if its deemed they don't "deserve" a proper service, with decent music, etc, etc, etc? I gather that the A-A service has (on average) about half the number of people who would normally be at the main service, and that the number of Under 16s is actually lower than on a regular Sunday when they have Sunday School.
  • But there is quite often a problem reported here with ministers who insist that the congregation fits in with their ideas of what the church should be like, particularly if they are imposing their view on that congregation without consultation.

    I suspect that all that happens is that the young families don't start coming and those who had been supporting the church for years stop coming, adding to the numbers of church attendees dropping. If the midweek services are surviving and doing better than the Sunday services, maybe it is because those services are simpler without the bands?
    Precisely what has happened at the church in the parish where I live, but with the added problem that midweek services have been cut to one (from 3), there is no service on Ascension (PP's day off) and the Sunday School has dwindled to nothing.

    Oh, and the praise band is now reduced to a single guitarist with fairly basic "skills": the rest of the band either moved or got fed up and have gone elsewhere. Meanwhile, the organ has been allowed to deteriorate (no maintenance for 5 years) and in any case there is no one to play it.

    As you say, people don't start coming - in the case of my home parish perhaps because the PP does no outreach stuff at all: there is a CofE school that isn't visited; midweek Play-and-Praise is taken by a LR (and PP never visits); and I'm reliably informed that the burden of at least 50% of all homilies delivered are about how "stressed" the PP feels.
  • Coming late to this - can someone explain to an outsider the differences between a church, a parish, and a benefice?

    I'm more familiar with the RCC in the US, where there can be multiple churches and chapels within a parish, and where in rural areas not every church building in a parish necessarily has a mass every Sunday but there definitely is a Sunday mass in at least one of the church buildings in the parish every Sunday. Often the church buildings in the parish that do not have a Sunday mass on Sunday itself will have a Saturday vigil mass, which in the RCC counts as a Sunday mass. However, there are some church buildings where Sunday mass only occurs every other Sunday or less often, or only during certain seasons of the year.

    How are the terminology and the situation in the C of E different?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Darda wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    I can well understand that you'd not want to go to the All-Age service - all physical ages it may be (but only may).
    Once a month, our "main" Sunday service is all age. Not my favourite service, but I always try to be there to show that our church is one worshipping community. How must the youngsters feel if our absence makes them think they are not valued? By the same reasoning, I will sometimes attend the more traditional earlier communion service mainly frequented by our more elderly members.
    Its not the youngsters that the refugees object to, its the dumbed down pap that purports to be a liturgy. One of the "refugees" is in fact only 15 years old but gave up on the "All-Age" thing 3 years ago.

    As for the younger element feeling "valued" - how do they get to feel "valued" if its deemed they don't "deserve" a proper service, with decent music, etc, etc, etc? I gather that the A-A service has (on average) about half the number of people who would normally be at the main service, and that the number of Under 16s is actually lower than on a regular Sunday when they have Sunday School.

    St Sanity's services are all-age as opposed to someone's idea of All-Age. IOW, Sunday morning services all follow APBA Second Order Eucharist and everyone of any age who wishes to attend is welcome So that answers comments such as Darda's along the lines of the necessity to attend a particular service to show support to the youngsters; the provision of an All-Age makes assumptions about the capacity and likes of young people that I'd certainly not make.
  • She wanted to stay in the service and would have happily joined the choir, if the same little cadre hadn't insisted that she came out to Sunday School and "proper teaching" (which my daughter thought was dumbed down and nonsense, aged 10).

    Our normal service isn't very kid-friendly, but that's because the priest likes to preach for half an hour on subjects that aren't terribly accessible to most of the kids. IME, the kids are perfectly happy with the liturgy and the mostly traditional hymns, but struggle with the sermons.

    My kids enjoy Sunday School, but like the kitten, tend to run away from any and all of our occasional forays into "services for kids".

  • 1. Its not the youngsters that the refugees object to, its the dumbed down pap that purports to be a liturgy. One of the "refugees" is in fact only 15 years old but gave up on the "All-Age" thing 3 years ago.

    2. As for the younger element feeling "valued" - how do they get to feel "valued" if its deemed they don't "deserve" a proper service, with decent music, etc, etc, etc? I gather that the A-A service has (on average) about half the number of people who would normally be at the main service, and that the number of Under 16s is actually lower than on a regular Sunday when they have Sunday School.

    1. Yes that's true but IME not the whole truth in all cases. There are instances where that serves as a convenient smokescreen for the impression that it is "our" service and you tinker with it at your peril.

    2. Anyone thought of discussing this with the children as well as with the adults? I know our aim isn't to give people what they want but in discussion you discover where people are and can reflect accordingly.

  • I think one of the problems is that children are seen as one bulk deal to be considered en masse, whereas they are individuals and have different needs and wants. Sermons here have tended to be 15 - 20 minutes in total, and I found it interesting how much my 8 year old was taking in. But there were days when we went and worked out the inscriptions on the organ or discussed the stories portrayed in the stained glass windows after the service.

    I don't have a problem with Sunday School, I do have a problem with a Sunday School that insists on dragging every reluctant child out to Sunday School* and doesn't offer anything that ties into the service. We had children join the choir because they wanted to, being dragged out to Sunday School, rather than being allowed to take part in that section of the service. There was no hiding place anywhere for kids, so I am aware of several that just refused to go, including mine.

    One of the things I wanted to do with the young people was an experimental service once a quarter on Sunday evening - giving an opportunity to look at how services go together - using the materials from Roots and exploring why different themes at different times of year. But allowing the young people to develop their own ideas within the structure of the CofE - I think that may just be happening now, but one of the Sunday School leaders who is really Baptist resisted most attempts to tie children's provision into the lectionary and church year has moved away in the last few months.

    * It's not one Sunday School - it's three different ones for different ages at the big town church, but nothing tied into the themes or lectionary. One Sunday that irritated me particularly was Advent, the Sunday School all came back and chatted about Mary - a week early for the lectionary theme. The church subscribes to Roots, gives a copy to all the youth groups. One of the village team churches uses the Roots resources for the week for children to colour or talk about during the sermon, so when the children come back they've learned about the same things that everyone else has. Or they can sit quietly in their pew and do this.
  • DardaDarda Shipmate
    Sounds like a sensible approach, Curiosity killed. Horses (dead or otherwise) for courses.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    Dropping in to report that Our Place's new priest-in-charge started today, just in time for Lent! He's hit the ground running, as they say.

    He is starting a weekly Lent Study Course, also weekly Stations of the Cross (followed by Compline), and is re-establishing a daily Mass at various times, to be reviewed, as he finds which are most suitable for most folk. We have warned him that we can't promise much of a congregation for weekday Mass, but his reaction was 'Never mind! If no-one turns up, I'll say the first part out loud, and then spend some time in silent prayer before the Blessed Sacrament'....

    IOW, there's Not Much Excuse for not getting to church at some point during the week.... :sweat_smile:

    Those prevented by infirmity will, if they wish, receive a home visit, with Communion and Anointing, as required.

    He is (from next Sunday) saying Evening Prayer in Church on Sundays, at which Communion from the Reserved Sacrament will be available to anyone who might not be able to get to the morning Parish Mass. We may well have monthly Benediction as well.

    He says his Office daily, but at present is living some way from the church. If TPTB find him somewhere nearer, he'll say the daily Offices in church, too.....although, I suppose, he could place the Offices before the daily Mass. We shall see.

    All this from a 70-year old non-stipendiary house-for-duty priest....
    :flushed:

    O, and he not only likes children to take part in the service, at whatever level they feel comfortable with, but for everyone to do so.
  • That sounds wonderful, Bishops Finger. Blessings on all of you!
  • Very encouraging. One fears though that he has set himself a very high bar!
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    Yes, indeed he has, though it seems he is merely continuing the practice of his previous parish (which was bigger, with a regular congregation about twice the size of ours). Time will tell, but he may need to trim his sails a little in due course.

    We have discreetly warned him not to tire himself out (as have his sisters).

    I expect that, after Lent/Holy Week/Easter, we shall settle down to perhaps a less demanding regime. He certainly takes Christian life and practice seriously, and I'm sure will encourage us all to do the same. No harm there, methinks.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    ...2. Anyone thought of discussing this with the children as well as with the adults? I know our aim isn't to give people what they want but in discussion you discover where people are and can reflect accordingly.
    Yep. When we moved to another city, I consulted mine about the parish we'd attend. We tried out several and decided together on one with a pipe organ and several children's choirs (along with an adult choir) singing good, serious music. They had no interest in happy-clappy.

    My present parish has traditional worship and great music in the Anglican tradition. It's also full of kids. I like the combination.



  • Lucky, lucky Bishops Finger: our H-f-D chap certainly gets the house bit but the duty doesn't seem to be understood too well.

    Yesterday he spent the entire period after the service moaning to anyone who would listen about the length of the service - and all because a new family (extended, 4 adults, 5 children) have chosen to make us their home and asked that their latest addition be baptised within a normal service. PP agreed to this, and it only meant a service that usually takes an hour took an extra 10 minutes.

    But what message is being sent out? :rage:
  • I'd suggest (a) "I'm lazy and don't want to be put-upon; count yourself lucky you've got me at all"; (b) "Newcomers unwelcome"; (c) "Let's give God the bare minimum of time so we can rush off and do the Really Important stuff such as visiting the family, playing golf or digging the garden". Will that do, for starters?
  • Lucky, lucky Bishops Finger: our H-f-D chap . . . .
    ”H-f-D”?

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    House for Duty. In the Church of England the expectation is that in return for living in the vicarage, the minister will do (commonly) two days’ parish work plus Sunday duties.

    It is sometimes a staging post towards full retirement for ordained persons now drawing a pension from previous ministry or secular employment.
  • Thanks, @BroJames.
  • Yes. H-f-D usually means what BroJames says, but I think it's up to the individual to decide (with his/her PCC) as to how those hours are spent.

    In our case, it looks as though our new chap will spend at least an hour or more each day either in church or on pastoral work, probably adding up to far more than the nominal hours required. We will need to keep an eye on him, I think.

    Some may be cynical about the whole thing, but ISTM that the C of E, at least, is being pragmatic about (a) saving the expense of full-time clergy, and (b) making use of those who wish to continue their pastoral and parochial ministry, perhaps on a reduced scale.

    For small parishes with active lay participation, such as Our Place, this is not unreasonable, IMHO.

    My original point, in response to the OP (I suppose) was that this does not necessarily equate with a withdrawal of opportunities for worship, given the willingness of laity (licensed lay ministers, or others) to Do Their Bit.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    <snip>My original point, in response to the OP (I suppose) was that this does not necessarily equate with a withdrawal of opportunities for worship, given the willingness of laity (licensed lay ministers, or others) to Do Their Bit.
    Hear, hear!
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    On the other hand, there are those ultra- conscientious clergy who will go above and beyond the stipulated 2 days, or whatever is agreed. I can’t help thinking there is an element of exploitation going on sometimes.
  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    ...2. Anyone thought of discussing this with the children as well as with the adults? I know our aim isn't to give people what they want but in discussion you discover where people are and can reflect accordingly.
    Yep. When we moved to another city, I consulted mine about the parish we'd attend. We tried out several and decided together on one with a pipe organ and several children's choirs (along with an adult choir) singing good, serious music. They had no interest in happy-clappy.

    My present parish has traditional worship and great music in the Anglican tradition. It's also full of kids. I like the combination
    That's great to hear. Where I go is more informal but children are/will be involved in planning services, taking part, thinking through materials. There's also a sense in which children observe adults at worship and are thereby caught by the presence of God as well as taught in the practice of God

  • Puzzler wrote: »
    On the other hand, there are those ultra- conscientious clergy who will go above and beyond the stipulated 2 days, or whatever is agreed. I can’t help thinking there is an element of exploitation going on sometimes.

    We are aware of this potential danger, and Father New-Priest has been discreetly warned not to over-do things! He has at least booked a rota of visiting preachers for the Sunday Mass in Lent, and for Friday Stations during Lent, which is a Good Sign, I think. He's not intending to 'do everything himself'.

  • Of course it's possible to exploit willing lay people too.
  • Of course it's possible to exploit willing lay people too.

    When people are ready and willing to give our time freely in God's service, I don't see that as exploitation. The stipend is supposed to help clergy to survive who have no other means, it is not a salary for work done or time given. It is surely up to all of us to be responsible for ourselves, and not to overdo it.
  • Raptor Eye wrote: »
    Of course it's possible to exploit willing lay people too.

    When people are ready and willing and able to give our time freely in God's service, I don't see that as exploitation.

    Fixed that for you.

  • Yes, but BT is right too. I've been exploited myself in the past.

    I didn't see it at the time, possibly because I tend to think (with great arrogance, I confess) that if a thing needs doing properly, it's up to Me to do it. In all fairness to other people in the congregation, they did gently warn me - that I took no heed is entirely down to me.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I often wonder how it is decided whether a parish may have a paid minister or a house for duty one. What are the criteria?
    And why do some parishes merit a full time priest when others must accept a part time one?
    My parish is a single church benefice, but the neighbouring parish, currently in vacancy, has six, whilst another neighbouring parish, also in vacancy, has six churches yet is advertising for a 0.5 post.
    Why such discrepancies?
    ( I appreciate that there is not enough money for every church to have its own priest, of course.)
  • I think that there are various factors involved. The population of ten rural parishes may be a fraction of that of an urban one. It's not only about how many people attend the church on a Sunday, but how many are under the spiritual care of the parish priest. There is also of course how much the congregations contribute in parish share, which pays for the stipends as well as for the central administration.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    edited March 2019
    The population of our entire deanery of 20-25 parishes has the same population as a town in a neighbouring deanery which has three parishes. It’s generally, but not always, true that on a straight numbers basis rural areas are better served by clergy per person than urban areas, but the challenge of providing an equivalent service to a scattered rural population is the same as for, say, GPs or policing.
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