Bad Samaritans

Those people who want to help, try to help, need to help for their own needs and manage to help just enough to interfere; to provide just enough support that the unstable can refuse the mental health support that they really need, or avoid talking to their supervisor when they're failing their PhD, or that little extra support so that social services are not required to step in.

Yes, I'm looking at you, downstairs neighbour, you self-absorbed senseless sapskull. You propped up my unstable next-door neighbour enough that she could refuse medications and the mental health referral I was trying to get in place. You kept her patched up with your provision of food (Lucozade) and supportive words, just enough that something major did happen, to me. Thanks a bunch for enabling her, not.

And now in your happy cluelessness you have just elected me as the next person to support. I am fucking furious you believe you can talk to others on my behalf. What in hell's name makes you think that having enabled someone else to attack me gives you the right to support me now? What in your tiny so-called mind equates my surface burns with my having a lobotomy?

Actually, I'm really not that upset this has happened, more relieved that the precarious presence is no longer looming at the top of the stairs with who-knows-what waiting for me every time I go in or out. You, however, what I really need you to do is take a very long walk off a short pier taking all your offensive assumptions with you. Or, you know, you could find a job and employ your energies in a constructive way and leave the rest of us in peace.
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Comments

  • MooMoo Kerygmania Host
    I think it was Thoreau who said that if you see someone approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life.
  • There really is a market for professional Leg-Slappers, armed with light, flexible canes, to go and beat some sense into such people.

    Were I not so old and feeble, I might consider a new career.

    :rage:

    IJ
  • LeRocLeRoc Shipmate
    You're never too old to chase your dreams!
  • rofl @LeRoc
  • There really is a market for professional Leg-Slappers, armed with light, flexible canes, to go and beat some sense into such people.

    Were I not so old and feeble, I might consider a new career.

    :rage:

    IJ

    Many retired clergy find retirement difficult. I'm sure you could find someone young and boisterous to administer the caning (or for that matter, a clue bat) while you read out the indictment.

    Not to make light of CK's OP, there's a real-life problem here that needs to be sorted out. There are too many who are willing to help but only on their terms. With a greater reliance on volunteering this problem is not likely to better in the short/medium term and never when it is done informally. Where's a cheap injunction when you need ne?
  • latecomerlatecomer Shipmate Posts: 3
    While I agree that the bad samaritan is out there, I'm not sure that the problem is volunteers helping but only on their own terms. In the church circles I move in (ever-decreasing mostly!) this leads to volunteers being loaded with more & more tasks which they have never agreed to.
    Treat even volunteers more like employees? Scope out what you want them to do, and get agreement on it? Is this a bit heavy handed?
  • MooMoo Kerygmania Host
    There are people who need to think that they are solving other people's problems. It makes them feel good about themselves.

    Their mindset is, "What this problem needs is me."
  • Moo is right, the downstairs neighbour felt he had to help, liked being the person to help and is still oblivious to the fact that his help hasn't really. It's actually very disabling to have someone offer to go and get your shopping, to save you from going out, particularly when you're having to overcome a reluctance to leave the flat but are able bodied and perfectly capable of doing your own chores.

    The PhD student in the OP, however, is one of my daughter's peers. Third email and counting in the last week informing said student that my daughter is competent and able to deal with her own supervisor and the admin and any help setting up a meeting is unwanted. However convenient such a meeting might be to the struggling student who wants access to informal support.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    Moo wrote: »
    I think it was Thoreau who said that if you see someone approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life.

    Might have been Thoreau, but it also sounds like Twain. The crusty old bastard.
  • JacobsenJacobsen Shipmate
    As C.S.Lewis said in The Screwtape Letters "She is the kind of person who lives for others. You can tell the others by their hunted expressions."
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    Jacobsen, you beat me to it!
  • Jacobsen wrote: »
    As C.S.Lewis said in The Screwtape Letters "She is the kind of person who lives for others. You can tell the others by their hunted expressions."

    He also did an elegy/tombstone on the same theme. It starts talking about how wonderful and helpful this woman was, then ends with:

    "Now she has peace,
    And so have they."

    :naughty:
  • LeRocLeRoc Shipmate
    Jacobsen wrote: »
    As C.S.Lewis said in The Screwtape Letters "She is the kind of person who lives for others. You can tell the others by their hunted expressions."
    I like this one.
  • @Penny S you may not have recognised yourself, but you were one of the Bad Samaritans I was thinking of as I started this thread. Some questions to ponder:
    • Has your intervention helped D move back into her own home?
    • Has it helped her son grow a backbone?
    • Has it improved your relationship with her?
    • Has it improved your relationship with her son?
    From your posts, you have resented every second of having D in your home, which was a poor second best to something you really wanted to do, and I doubt you have managed to dissemble enough not to make that clear. How much do you think she's enjoying charity from someone who hates her?

    Currently, I'm dealing with a horrendous situation aggravated by a Bad Samaritan, I know of what I speak. It is better by far to let the people who are supposed to pick up these problems (social care, mental health, etc), than to interfere and make things worse.
  • Lily PadLily Pad Shipmate
    Yes, CK, life gets messy indeed in situations like this. I can see both sides and have likely been the one on both sides numerous times.
    I was going to post on the other thread to @Penny S that at the very least, her struggles were giving those with little power to change their situations an opportunity to give advice. It seemed too harsh to say there. What you have said above is harsh too but likely necessary. Too often it is easier to give in than to fight it when someone else is getting too close. And it is easier to give advice than to follow through on it.
    I follow super strict rules that keep me fairly isolated for health reasons. I forced myself to try to go to someone else's home last week and even invited another person to go with me. I kept telling myself that this was healthy and it may well be considered so for others. But for me, it put me into an unhealthy situation.
    I was reminded, just yesterday, of the need to stand up for oneself and not become a victim. There are all sorts of bullying out there and the bystanders, the ones who see what is happening, need to be more active both in supporting the victim by giving him or her the tools to fight back and also more supportive to the bully, offering them a way to find other means to fill the need that puts them into that position.
  • JacobsenJacobsen Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    @CK, LP and PennyS - As has been said, the road to Hell ( and here we are! :grin: ) is paved with good intentions. And hindsight is a wonderful thing. Having identified whatever the problems and mistakes are, of and by whomsoever they may be, the only way is forward. So at the risk of seeming All-Saintly, good luck, PennyS. But do move forward and get the old cow out of your home before one of you does for the other.
  • LibsLibs Shipmate
    Jacobsen wrote: »
    As C.S.Lewis said in The Screwtape Letters "She is the kind of person who lives for others. You can tell the others by their hunted expressions."
    Thanks for identifying this - I had it down as P.G. Wodehouse.

  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    @Jacobsen
    Jacobsen wrote: »
    @CK - your daughter clearly is capable of empathy, which D appears not to be. And she (D) is not trapped; she has, and has always had, the option of returning to her own home, of agreeing to have it made suitable for her to live in, and of importing carers to see to her needs. Where's the "trapped" in that? She does have an escape, but, from the sound of things, is too stingy and self-willed to use it, preferring to batten on her hostess. If she really is mentally competent, she is the relative/guest from hell.
    OK - this saga of Penny S's friend started in 2013 on the Difficult Relatives thread on the Old Ship™. One of the recent comments on the old Aged Parents thread was that D cannot return home because there is no power in her house. And guess why she has no power? Because Penny S helpfully went round to sort out a problem with the lights and whatever she did fused all the electricity for the whole house. This was a few years back. (Go check the Aged Parents on the Old Ship™ if you need to - I linked the post admitting to taking out the power on the old Difficult Relatives thread.)

    We, a number of us, have been telling Penny S that she is not helping for some time, and started doing so in 2014. Before D went to hospital for the first time and Penny S took her into her home when she came out, before D went into hospital for a second time and Penny S took her into her home for a second time ...
    What D can't escape from are the fact and effects of old age. But she's having a damn good try, at PennyS's expense. OK, PennyS may have made a mistake in agreeing to have D to stay, but this whole situation is ridiculous. Sympathy for D ( and mine is minimal, as must be fairly obvious) should not prevent the proper resolution, which is for D to move out.
    And Penny S has not been listening to advice for 4 years, has been doing things against advice for 4 years, and is still complaining.

    Every time Penny S takes D into her home, she removes her from her local health services, her local social services. Penny S and D have been refusing to sign D up to access local (to Penny S) services. Because the two addresses are some distance apart.
  • JacobsenJacobsen Shipmate
    Point taken, CK. I have popped in and out of the thread and put in my tuppenceworth here and there. So I was already aware that this is a saga of considerable proportions. Could it be that we too are Bad Samaritans in the level of support we give, studded though it may be with very good advice? :trollface:
  • JacobsenJacobsen Shipmate
    Further to your post, CK, regardless of who was responsible for buggering up the electrics in D's house, surely there was insurance cover? There is no excuse for not getting the place habitable, IMO.
  • Amateurs buggering around in areas beyond their ken tend to invalidate insurance.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Jacobsen wrote: »
    Regardless of who was responsible for buggering up the electrics in D's house, surely there was insurance cover?
    And electrical contractors in town who would be grateful for the work?
  • JacobsenJacobsen Shipmate
    Libs wrote: »
    Jacobsen wrote: »
    As C.S.Lewis said in The Screwtape Letters "She is the kind of person who lives for others. You can tell the others by their hunted expressions."
    Thanks for identifying this - I had it down as P.G. Wodehouse.

    Maybe C.S.Lewis nicked it from Plum. He did, after all, read pretty widely. :grin:
  • Amateurs buggering around in areas beyond their ken tend to invalidate insurance.

    Changing a fuse is a normal thing, and not in itself going to invalidate anyone's insurance. But insurance doesn't pay for maintenance, nor for repairing whatever disaster is wrong with the house's electrics. (If the fuse box has fuses rather than miniature circuit breakers, it's likely to be 40 years old or more. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to find the insulation falling apart, and the electrics riddled with short circuit risks, and I'd imagine that the whole lot would need replacing.
  • Yep, fuse wire. Having lived through my parents taking on my paternal grandparents' house (when I was a teenager), seen the work and heard about the costs of dealing with "time-served wiring", if I'd found a fuse box with fuse wires I would have backed away fast.

    One of my engineering daughter's electrician friends was asked to sort out an electrical fault during the recent bad weather. His first move, after discovering the ancient wiring, was to ask the householder to sign a waiver. He has also managed to organise a reduced price rewiring job as a teaching / learning exercise for the kind of apprentices not everyone would welcome into their home. Suggested December 2017 cost for rewiring a four bedroom detached house is around £3500-£5000.
  • There is nothing wrong with fuse boxes with fuse wire. Those of us who have them also have spare fuse wire, and just get on with it.
  • Errr...does Penny want all this advice? Some of which seems rather judgy? IIRC from the old DR thread, and a couple of others, she felt rather piled on.
  • Penny S put herself and her situation out there, at length and in several places. If, as someone suggested previously, all she wanted to do was blart without any feedback, she should have started a blog with the comments switched off.
  • Maybe she just wants us to listen, and verbally nod? I.e. "we hear you", etc.

    DR is a thread for venting, as much as anything else. That seems to be what Penny needs, at this point.

    Does anyone else get this type of intense feedback/criticism?
  • *Looks at top of the board*
    *Sees the word Hell*

    @Golden Key - you're not the only person to have expressed disquiet, but I've taken sounding out backstage. The consensus is that since PennyS has history of posting about her situation in Hell (most recently on the 18th of this month), there is very little we can, or ought to, do to prevent other Shipmates commenting on the information that she has freely given, other than to urge her not to be so detailed with the information that she's divulging. And that these are discussion boards, not personal blogs.

    All Shippies need to remember that no matter how cosy SoF might appear to be, all posts on public boards, even those in All Saints, are searchable and readable by anyone with an internet connection.

    If anyone has further comments on this, please avail yourselves of Styx.

    DT
    HH
  • @Golden Key I didn't post anything about Penny S in Hell until after she started posting on the new Difficult Relatives thread .
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    We had an electrician in. He wouldn't deal with the fuse situation, deeming the house wiring to be at fault, and suggesting a work round with a reasonable quote. Not accepted. I have dealt with fuse wire many times in the past with no problems. He did not criticise what I had done. (Also rewiring through hoard would not be that easy.)
    I have had nothing to do with the plumbing which is unacceptable, or the gas cooker (though I have turned off the supply) which she wrecked, or any of the other things which make the house uninhabitable.
    I don't hate her.
    What I do find incredibly awful is the way that her deemed capacity rides roughshod over both her son and me, so that every avenue of change can be blocked. I cannot in all conscience kick her out when she has made it impossible for the agencies who tried to help to do so.
    And thanks so much for identifying me as a bad samaritan. It really helps to keep one's spirits up when applying all that one was taught in growing up in church is dissed - since it never came with the warning that actually being like the priest and the Levite is the more sensible course.
    I do hope that those of you who deliver sermons on such matters include that in them.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    And I rather had the impression from the OP that it was about people who insisted on offering help that wasn't wanted. Not people who tried very hard not to, but where there was no alternative available.
    And you all have been spared a lot. and will continue to be.
  • JacobsenJacobsen Shipmate
    There was an alternative. It's called "no."
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Penny S wrote: »
    And I rather had the impression from the OP that it was about people who insisted on offering help that wasn't wanted. Not people who tried very hard not to, but where there was no alternative available.
    And you all have been spared a lot. and will continue to be.

    There is always an alternative. You need to look for it and use it.

    (Of course it’s easier said than done. I could well take my own advice on this in some areas of my own life. But we are not ever forced to enable others’ behaviour - we choose to do so.)

  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Penny S wrote: »
    I cannot in all conscience kick her out when she has made it impossible for the agencies who tried to help to do so.
    Yes you can, and should. Maybe then she'll reverse her attitude toward the agencies in question and accept their help. If not, it's her problem.
  • Penny S wrote: »
    I cannot in all conscience kick her out when she has made it impossible for the agencies who tried to help to do so.
    Yes you can, and should. Maybe then she'll reverse her attitude toward the agencies in question and accept their help. If not, it's her problem.

    And her son's.
  • Penny S wrote: »
    What I do find incredibly awful is the way that her deemed capacity rides roughshod over both her son and me, so that every avenue of change can be blocked. I cannot in all conscience kick her out when she has made it impossible for the agencies who tried to help to do so.

    Of course you bloody can. It's your house, which means you get to set the rules and remove anyone who won't abide by them. The next time she goes into hospital you can point blank refuse to take her back and nobody can do anything to stop you. Hell, I hear stories from my Health Professional wife about people's families doing that and the authorities having no recourse, so someone who's merely a friend wouldn't even be questioned.

    You don't have to roll over and grant everything this person demands of you as if it's her house and you're the hired help. You're choosing to do so.
    And thanks so much for identifying me as a bad samaritan. It really helps to keep one's spirits up when applying all that one was taught in growing up in church is dissed - since it never came with the warning that actually being like the priest and the Levite is the more sensible course.

    The Samaritan in Jesus' story identified the wounded man's need and provided for it gladly. He didn't agree to give the man anything he wanted for as long as he wanted it then spend the thick end of the next decade bitching about how unpleasant it had made his life in the hope that the people he's bitching to would keep reinforcing his ego by telling him how saintly a martyr he's being.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    If you think enabling another’s bad behaviour, whilst making you feel more ‘Christian’ is the right thing to do ...
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    There is nothing wrong with fuse boxes with fuse wire. Those of us who have them also have spare fuse wire, and just get on with it.

    Not in themselves, no. But their continued presence may be indicative of an electrical installation of a certain age, which may contain wiring with insulation that has reached end-of-life.

  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    I should really learn that the quote button and the edit button are different.
  • Penny S wrote: »
    What I do find incredibly awful is the way that her deemed capacity rides roughshod over both her son and me, so that every avenue of change can be blocked. I cannot in all conscience kick her out when she has made it impossible for the agencies who tried to help to do so

    I know it's hard, but it's not impossible. D is dealing with a rough, rough situation here-- and sounds not unlike my moms intractable response when her life was similarly curtailed.

    But she is running roughshod over you because you allow it. As long as you let her live in your home, that is clearly the best option for her, personally, and so no one-- not social services, not her son, and certainly not D herself-- is going to entertain any other options. The only way to change the situation is to change your response. To make it absolutely, completely clear that remaining in your home is not an option. As long as it is, it will be the best option-- for her-- and Nothing Will Ever Change. Ever
    Penny S wrote: »
    And thanks so much for identifying me as a bad samaritan. It really helps to keep one's spirits up when applying all that one was taught in growing up in church is dissed - since it never came with the warning that actually being like the priest and the Levite is the more sensible course.
    I do hope that those of you who deliver sermons on such matters include that in them.

    I know. I was one of those who responded harshly. I wasn't the first to make that connection, but I did pile on. I apologize not for the content/advice, but for the harsh way it was delivered

    As others have noted, the Good Samaritan was the one who stopped and helped-- but he didn't take the injured man into his home or allow him to take over his life

    There is a range of options/ responses to suffering. The parable lists two: one good (respond with compassion) and one bad (ignore it). Parables are by nature simplistic to make a point. But that should not be confused with the assumption there are only two options here-- heartless abandonment or complete obliteration of your own needs. People here at the Ship do care about you, even if we get frustrated and sound harsh at times. It's because we do care about you that we're urging you to consider more than just those two binary options

  • You know what-- forget that (other than the apology). It's just me telling you what to do when I have no business doing that. Sorry again. Prayers for you in a very hard situation. :votive
  • LydaLyda Shipmate

    Penny S wrote: »
    What I do find incredibly awful is the way that her deemed capacity rides roughshod over both her son and me, so that every avenue of change can be blocked. I cannot in all conscience kick her out when she has made it impossible for the agencies who tried to help to do so.

    Of course you bloody can. It's your house, which means you get to set the rules and remove anyone who won't abide by them. The next time she goes into hospital you can point blank refuse to take her back and nobody can do anything to stop you. Hell, I hear stories from my Health Professional wife about people's families doing that and the authorities having no recourse, so someone who's merely a friend wouldn't even be questioned.

    You don't have to roll over and grant everything this person demands of you as if it's her house and you're the hired help. You're choosing to do so.
    And thanks so much for identifying me as a bad samaritan. It really helps to keep one's spirits up when applying all that one was taught in growing up in church is dissed - since it never came with the warning that actually being like the priest and the Levite is the more sensible course.

    The Samaritan in Jesus' story identified the wounded man's need and provided for it gladly. He didn't agree to give the man anything he wanted for as long as he wanted it then spend the thick end of the next decade bitching about how unpleasant it had made his life in the hope that the people he's bitching to would keep reinforcing his ego by telling him how saintly a martyr he's being.

    Sorry Marvin for quoting the whole thing but I can't seem to manage the new coding to quote just the part I want to reply to..

    Anyway. Not allowing D to return to Penny's domicile after another hospital stay was the last plan I understood that Penny S spoke of for regaining her home for herself. Penny S seems adverse to being the person who actively gets D out of her home. To do so actively would involve a lot of messy emotions and logistics and possibly an eviction notice. And it would completely go against everything she was raised to be as a good Christian, even though ultimately D would probably get better, more professional care outside Penny's home. Passively letting the hospital discharge solve the situation is what she seems to want.

    So, for my part, I've given all the advice I could which Penny S really didn't want. Mine and all the other advice posts are on these various threads if she wants to review them. So, if she wants to share further frustrations, I'm good with that. I'll thank her for keeping us up to date because I'm interested and concerned. But no more unwanted advice from me.
  • IIRC from the old thread, professionals evaluated D and decided she was too competent to just be put into care. Or something like that. And they seemed to expect Penny to take care of her. I suspect Penny's understanding is that if she kicks D out, D will literally have nowhere to go.

    And I'm not saying any of that is inaccurate. But since Penny's handling of the situation is being criticized, her perspective matters.

    From personal experience (though not like Penny's), I know that people and bureaucracies that are supposed to help often screw up, or don't help at all. And people really can wind up in danger of homelessness--or actually homeless--because of the wrong action or lack of action of others. With no fault at all on the part of the person trying to get assistance.

    We've only got Penny's account perspective to go by (as when any Shipmate talks about their life). But ISTM it's quite plausible.

    :votive:
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    I recall with my grandmother that the NHS and the care services could pile on intense pressure to get us the family to cover all the care needs. It may have been because they wanted to save their resources for people who had no-one to help, but it certainly put the family/friends in a painful and guilt-ridden situation to say no, or under an immense burden if they were pressured to say yes. It's a situation that royally sucks.
  • Most of Jesus parables are in balance. They sometimes appear to be even contradictory because they each illustrate a particular point of importance and do not necessarily each represent a philosophy of life in themselves, only when considered all together.

    The one of increasing relevance to your current situation which comes to mind is 'Don't cast your pearls before swine lest they turn and rend you'. Once it becomes clear that you are being taken for a sucker, common sense requires that you should 'stop feeding the pig that is rending you'. That is not uncharitable, it is better both for you and for the pig, which needs to regain its independence and find its own sustenance, as much as you do yourself.

    Where the Spirit is, there is freedom. Your situation smacks more of a slide from voluntary to involuntary slavery than freedom. Time to start applying some 'tough love' tactics to wean this suckling off your lactating charity or she will be permanently hanging on your metaphorical teat.
  • TubbsTubbs Admin
    edited March 2018
    Golden Key wrote: »
    IIRC from the old thread, professionals evaluated D and decided she was too competent to just be put into care. Or something like that. And they seemed to expect Penny to take care of her. I suspect Penny's understanding is that if she kicks D out, D will literally have nowhere to go.

    And I'm not saying any of that is inaccurate. But since Penny's handling of the situation is being criticized, her perspective matters.

    From personal experience (though not like Penny's), I know that people and bureaucracies that are supposed to help often screw up, or don't help at all. And people really can wind up in danger of homelessness--or actually homeless--because of the wrong action or lack of action of others. With no fault at all on the part of the person trying to get assistance.

    We've only got Penny's account perspective to go by (as when any Shipmate talks about their life). But ISTM it's quite plausible.

    :votive:

    UK hospitals try not to release people into home situations that may considered unsafe and will ask Social Services to put together a care package. Some of that may include making the house habitable. Based on what Penny has said, the house isn't safe, well maintained or suitable for a rather frail old lady. But social services will just clear things / make space rather than fixing broken electrics or cookers etc.

    D has been judged as competent which means that she has a say in what care she does or doesn't accept. She refuses to accept most of what social services has offered.

    She also has control of the purse strings and has refused to sign off on repairs etc to make the house habitable.

    There are a ton of arguments about the fine lines between helping and hindering. Maybe Penny S saying no might force D into either accepting the care she needs or doing something about the house. Maybe it won't and she'll just keep rattling around her completely unsuitable house until something else happens. But the current state of affairs doesn't seem to be helping anyone.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    If she's truly as competent as she has been judged to be, then responsibility is squarely on her shoulders either to accept the help that is being offered, or continue to live without it. Either way, it's her decision. Penny S bears no responsibility and should bear no feelings of guilt if things turn out the way she wouldn't want them to.
  • Moo wrote: »
    I think it was Thoreau who said that if you see someone approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life.
    It was Thoreau, in the Economy section of his book "Walden", a rag tag collection of thoughts committed to paper while he lived at his cottage at Ralph Waldo Emerson's Walden Pond.

    "If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life, as from that dry and parching wind of the African deserts called the simoom, which fills the mouth and nose and ears and eyes with dust till you are suffocated, for fear that I should get some of his good done to me — some of its virus mingled with my blood."
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