Arguing on the Ship - no, really?

124

Comments

  • MooMoo Kerygmania Host
    Funny how you can run but not hide.
    I didn't find Him, He found me.

    There is a poem about that which I like very much.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    To be fair on Brother Jude, I also can have a wordy, overly-formal style. And sometimes other people's styles of writing can feel rude or alien to me. Being told to relax my style wouldn't help - it would make me defensive and self-conscious. But surely the issue here is not so much the style, but the content - the fact that Brother Jude is taking on a role of 'I am humbly edifying you all, and if you don't accept that, you are unbiblically arguing with me, and I will humbly back away, as that is the biblical thing to do.' Whichever words he chooses to say that, it will still come across as kind of condescending and self-righteous, regardless of intention and awareness.

    But perhaps also that is his way of arguing, a kind of passive-aggressive way, when confronted with people he finds rude and doesn't know how to deal with. Mousethief's way of arguing (to which I assume he is largely referring) can sometimes seem like he wants to score points, be a wise-arse, and put people down. I have no idea the extent to which that is deliberate/conscious, but, Brother Jude, it is the style he uses in general, so not personal to you. And there does usually tend to be a genuine point to what he is saying when he posts in Purg. I can see the points he is making with you. They are serious, genuine points, though the style may be not pleasing to you.
  • So by your standard it would be better if I just not speak?

    Yes.
    Am I then to be the Pharisee announcing my greatness that all may hear & bear witness?

    You already are doing exactly that. Over and over.
  • Lyda wrote: »
    LeRoc wrote: »
    I find that in BJ's way of posting, he's trying to rile people up rather deliberately.

    Why not? Many of us are speaking snottily to him. He uses the weapons he has at hand.

    We are speaking snottily because he has been insulting and self-aggrandizing and that gets up our nose. (Where "we"=me; I can't speak for anybody else.)
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    edited March 2019
    ...Angels sing in monophony.
    Kyrie eleison.

    @Bishops Finger wrote
    (**Neither is he, actually. Did you know that I made him up?).
    Yes. But I read a lot.


  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Lyda wrote: »
    LeRoc wrote: »
    I find that in BJ's way of posting, he's trying to rile people up rather deliberately.

    Why not? Many of us are speaking snottily to him. He uses the weapons he has at hand.

    We are speaking snottily because he has been insulting and self-aggrandizing and that gets up our nose. (Where "we"=me; I can't speak for anybody else.)

    Of course. I agree. So he gets defensive and defends himself with even more heightened piousness. It doesn't help his cause, but it is his weapon and one that he knows will raise hackles and yet fall into his personal zone of feeling like he is still a "good" Christian. He is probably related to the Deacon.
  • ... or to put it another way, BJ only has transmit mode, no receive.
  • Lyda wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Lyda wrote: »
    LeRoc wrote: »
    I find that in BJ's way of posting, he's trying to rile people up rather deliberately.

    Why not? Many of us are speaking snottily to him. He uses the weapons he has at hand.

    We are speaking snottily because he has been insulting and self-aggrandizing and that gets up our nose. (Where "we"=me; I can't speak for anybody else.)

    Of course. I agree. So he gets defensive and defends himself with even more heightened piousness. It doesn't help his cause, but it is his weapon and one that he knows will raise hackles and yet fall into his personal zone of feeling like he is still a "good" Christian.

    From what I can tell this has all begun as some minor misunderstanding of my motives and has swiftly grown into quite the blaze. Lyda's post sets it into stark relief for me so I have quoted it but I wish to address mousethief, Mr Cheesy, Boogie, and all others who've rallied together to convince me of my sanctimonious evangelical buttheadedness.

    My intent behind the initial post in the Evil thread( no I can't recall the full name) was to emphasize what I believe to be a revelation by God due to the life of self-destruction and self-sanctimony which has led me to where I currently am, both in life' and in my returning to Christ. It was not meant to be a judgment or a rebuke to anyone here. In fact, I thought that most would agree with what I said. Perhaps that presumption was in some fashion arrogant but knowing the man I am I would attribute it to ignorance. With some context you all may understand why I say this.

    I am a homeless man living with other homeless men at a Full Gospel mission. The men who walk through these doors, myself included, are judged the worst of the worst by society at large. In fact the only men we don't accept are those with charges against women or children. We are a collection of former murderers, thieves, drunkards, drug addicts, essentially you name the sin we've got someone all too familiar with it.

    As such the doctrine of grace is foremost in our teachings here. Many of these men have rapsheets so long that society would quicker throw them behind bars permanently than let them walk free. Perhaps now you might better understand the belief I espoused that all sins are equal in the eyes of God. Insofar as I can tell, after much prayer and dedication to study, (meant as without sanctimony or pomp as it can be) this is an accurate understanding of God's word and Jesus' teaching, in particular. This doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge the human need for laws of varying intensity for men and women's actions. I simply believe that God, in His divine mercy and grace, looks beyond such things. I won't attempt to structure a biblical validation of this belief because I have already done so and it obviously only served to irritate rather than to exemplify.

    With absolutely no pious intent I can say that my life thus far has been much akin to that of Job, without the great fear and reverence for God. Most of my children are dead, my friends are nowhere to be found, because I drove most away in the depths of my suffering, my wife has left me, my family has disowned me, and I find myself with nowhere to lay my head, no personal home. I even suffer from an incurable skin disease. Much of this I have brought upon myself for living as I have and turning my back on God for many a year. It is only by His grace that I yet live and have found my way back to Him. To be clear I say none of this lightly nor with a desire for pity or other such. I only clarify myself so as to shed light upon my convictions and to show that I love only by Jesus' love for the love in me was dead without Him, be it love for self or others.

    What you took as personal insult mousethief I meant as lighthearted acknowledgment of my own failings. I have been a fool twice over, first a fool for the world now a fool for Christ! I am no pious self-righteous Pharisee! In fact I am the lowest of the low; not even worthy to have my Lord look upon me!

    I was raised the son of a Methodist pastor. Born & reared in the Word. The first 15 years of my life was spent attending the church near daily, studying and memorizing the bible. Hearing constantly of Christ's love and power to save. Yet I fell, I squandered what talents were given me. I am but a man. What you, brothers and sisters take for pride, arrogance, self-righteousness; a turning up of the nose, if you will, is but earnest conviction & love for His forgiveness.

    For those of you who actually make it to the end I sincerely apologize for the misunderstanding and for any affront you feel I have given. I wish only to learn and to return blessing for blessing if able. Thank you all for your time

    BJ

  • Brother Jude--

    Thanks for the explanation, and I'm sorry things have been so hard for you.
  • No words. Nothing here except profound appreciation.

    Thank you for sharing your struggle with us.

    AFF
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    Yes, thank you. I'm sorry that I have made quick judgment of your motives. I do hope you don't desert us now that we have an idea of your journey and what your faith means to how you travel on it. You have a better idea now of how we operate here- somewhat rough and tumble, but sincere and forthright. Believe me, there are shipmates who have gotten tougher challenges in their first weeks on board and gone on to pretty happy voyages.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Thank you, @Brother Jude. I wish you well.
  • Brother Jude, see if this helps. The people on board this Ship have a massive allergy to anything that smacks of pride--to anything that is not humble. That includes cases where a poster seems to be judgmental, sanctimonious, setting himself up as a teacher, holier-than-thou, sinfuller-than-thou, more-educated-than-thou, and really in any way, "look at me! look at me!"

    Because you are on the internet, there is no way anyone here can know your true life circumstances. All we have to go on is your words. That's why you want to read what you write once, twice, even three times to be sure you are coming off as a humble person. Not as someone who is trying to draw attention to himself, either for good reasons (holiness, education) or bad reasons (I'm so sinful, etc.)

    If you can fix the tone of what you are saying, I think you will find it much easier to get people to pay attention to your content.

  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Thank you for the explanation @Brother Jude . I hope all goes well for you.

    @Lamb Chopped has some excellent advice.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Brother Jude, I wish you well, as I wish all shipmates well. We all have our personal journeys with various struggles, and some find life more difficult than others. You can ask for prayer on the prayer thread in All Saints if you like, as many do, and chatting in the threads there can help you get to know people and relate to each other in a human to human way. All Saints is a good board for chatting about your life and getting and giving support.

    Please don't see comments about how you post as a statement about your personal life, as none of us can know another's personal life unless they tell us - we can only comment on the way you are posting, and the way it reads. I have found online there are some Christian communities where the way you post is more the norm, but it simply isn't here. Those communities tend to be American and evangelical (though not all American evangelicals, of course, are like thsis), which may have been why people were suggesting you were evangelical. Here is more British and Anglican, though there are also plenty of people from other countries and people who are not Anglican. There is an American board in All Saints where American shipmates chat about life in the US.

    In the same way as where you live is a community, with a certain flavour and certain communication norms, so is the Ship - though no doubt a very different one. And it takes a while in any community to get a sense of the way people interact. We all have learned ways of communicating, and I don't think it's possible (or even necessarily advisable) to instantly completely change them because people find them rude. Adaptation to others goes both ways. But in a community people do generally automatically adapt communication a little over time, as they get to know the community. You are new here, so it's bound to be a bit of a clash at first, but if you want to stick around, you may get to find it a friendly and interesting and edifying place.
  • fineline wrote: »
    And it takes a while in any community to get a sense of the way people interact.

    Quite, and your interactions with MT were like a padawan wandering into the Jedi temple and telling Yoda* that it's high time he looked into this 'Force' thing. Hence the response from said community.

    * Well, maybe not Yoda, eh mousethief? But a competent and capable mid-to-high-ranking Jedi nonetheless.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Brother Jude:

    I think one snag in reading your posts is that (sorry) they sound like Paul's letters in the Revised Standard Version of the Bible. And IMHO that doesn't really fit well in modern conversation.

    Maybe that's your normal style of speaking and posting. But it comes across as making pronouncements in an epistle to people in need of correction.

    Might it be possible for you to write in a more relaxed, casual way? And just be a person in a group of other persons who are all trying to figure life out, and have some fun while doing it?

    Thx. :)

    Well, I disagree a little here with the first sentence. Though agree with the second.

    Paul sounds quite passionate and deeply invested in his epistles. You get the image of an emotional, connected and complex personality beneath Paul's varied and at times inconsistent writings.

    And I'm not saying that Brother Jude isn't any of those things! It may be that he really can't post any other way and I don't wish to disrespect that if it's his genuine style and not a trolling device. He brings his own style and challenge, in that case!

    But I think my impression of his posts is of someone who basically is passionless about the topics. There's a kind of technical objectification going on which rather blocks the enlivening intent of scripture. I feel that anyone could make a lot of the points Brother Jude makes in many of his posts and be completely agnostic, or indifferent to the subject, so academically chilly and third-person are the assertions and remarks he makes (thought provoking as some of them have the potential to be).

    Maybe he is simply failing to impress with the sincerity of his posts, because the style is so unhelpfully removed from real life debate.

  • Because you are on the internet, there is no way anyone here can know your true life circumstances. All we have to go on is your words.

    True of each one of us, of course. We could ALL be telling Naughty Fibs about our lives......

  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Assertions on the internet are... words.

    Arguments that make sense and demonstrate understanding are... convincing.

    I know which I value more.
  • There's an African saying, 'Speak so that I can see you.'

    Now you've said some more, Brother Jude, I think I can see you better.

    I was hasty in my judgement and response and apologise if I caused any offence.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Message boards are designed for discussion. The SHIP's message boards, in particular.

    They are not a series of mini-blogs or Facebook posts where each poster drops a little primary pearl of wisdom that everyone else admires.

    Much of the internet is designed around the notion of giving each person their own little platform, which is perhaps why people often come to a message board and make the mistake of thinking that they can basically drop their magnificent thoughts in and that'll be that.

    There are indeed message boards where that kind of behaviour is common and people have got deeply testy with me when I've disagreed and said that I don't think the thoughts of the first person are quite so magnificent.

    Here on the Ship, arguing is important. I find any notion that arguing is something the Bible tells us not to do to be quite frankly erroneous and dangerous, because I can think of any number of examples of people in the Bible who argued with God (never mind each other) and because much of the world's wrong comes from people blindly following when they ought to have been questioning.

    So welcome to the Ship, but embrace how it works. It does not work by people ignoring all the profound difficulties of history and context and translation and culture that beset any reading of the Bible. It works by accepting the massive doubt and uncertainty that all of that produces.
  • I appreciate the sincerity all. I will endeavor to better articulate my thought and to not come across as judgmental, for that was truly never my intent. Onward and upward.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Rowan Williams talks often about conversation stoppers. That is, attempts to have the Last Word, to say something which closes down any disagreement or argument. He thinks they're bad.
    That being the case, I think the thing to avoid is, after having expressed one's own opinion at length, signing off by telling everyone else that arguments are bad.
  • Brother JudeBrother Jude Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Rowan Williams talks often about conversation stoppers. That is, attempts to have the Last Word, to say something which closes down any disagreement or argument. He thinks they're bad.
    That being the case, I think the thing to avoid is, after having expressed one's own opinion at length, signing off by telling everyone else that arguments are bad.

    I had not intended to imply that others arguing was wrong, nor was my intention one of "I know so be silent fool!", What I was attempting, unsuccessfully, to convey was that I saw the natural progression of the currently involved argument to be of a circular nature, and was therefore bowing out because I could see no way of ending it gently or decisively. Perhaps this was an error in judgment on my part. I cannot say with absolute certainty. What I can say is that I obviously conveyed myself and my intentions poorly. For that I have already apologized.
  • Or that if they only really sincerely pray about it, they'll come to see the light.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Or that if they only really sincerely pray about it, they'll come to see the light.

    To be clear mousethief I did not say that "the light" was my light. In fact my purpose in the statement was to imply that through prayer a conclusion could be reached, between yourself and God, not necessarily my conclusion. That said, should your seeking have rendered a contrary answer to my prior statement I would have had to ask, "Is what I have concluded truly of God?" If not then how had I been deceived?
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Do you really have to be either correct or ‘deceived’.

    Surely you can just be interpreting the passage differently?
  • Also, it is insulting to insinuate that I don't realize that prayer can lead to conclusions about questions of theology or biblical interpretation. I have been a Christian for 39 years and that of just about every stripe Christinity affords (except RCC), so I am well familiar with prayer, its uses, its meaning, and so forth.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    It is erroneous to "bow out" by "saying one more thing". Even to say "I am leaving this conversation" is technically just a narcissistic contribution to the conversation.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    RooK wrote: »
    It is erroneous to "bow out" by "saying one more thing". Even to say "I am leaving this conversation" is technically just a narcissistic contribution to the conversation.

    It also makes it a bit problematic when the conversation moves on, you take up lurking, and then you see something you really, really want to comment on. Rejoining the conversation is, well, awkward and somewhat embarrassing.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Also, it is insulting to insinuate that I don't realize that prayer can lead to conclusions about questions of theology or biblical interpretation. I have been a Christian for 39 years and that of just about every stripe Christinity affords (except RCC), so I am well familiar with prayer, its uses, its meaning, and so forth.

    Which to be sure doesn't mean I'm any good at it. But I do know a lot about it, and try to employ it, with varying levels of success.
  • Maybe it would be a good idea, Brother, to stick to talking about your opinions on the topic rather than making statements about other people's biblical literacy or prayer life.

    It is usually a good rule of thumb to imagine that other people in a Purgatory discussion like that have a) at least as much biblical knowledge as you do and b) are aware of prayer.

    Hopefully you will now continue to post with the forewarning that posting in that way again will annoy people.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Admittedly I see no multi-quote here so I'll address each comment separately, as time allows.
    Boogie wrote: »
    @Brother Jude said - The bible also teaches us not to argue amongst ourselves so I'll leave it there.

    Where is the laughing and bashing the floor emoji - I really need it!

    I came here because this is hilarious. What is Purgatory for if not argument/discussion?

    This also drives me maaad. 😤 😡

    “On that note, I do not ask that you, or anyone, simply take my word for it. Go to the WORD, pray on it, if you will.”

    To be told that we’ll agree with you if we read the Bible and pray enough.

    What?

    Why?

    Why would your point of view be THE one which we found in our reading of the text. Utter piffle. 🙄🙄

    Hmmm let me see if I've distilled this swill properly. You are angry, unsatisfied, disturbed by, or otherwise discontented with the expression of a biblical admonishment against dissention in the body of believers, used in context to express my personal lack of desire to undertake tedious, inane, pseudo-intellectual babble, which presents no conceivable end or beginning (circular logic if you will). Should I apologize for such affront?

    As to the latter point......do I need to sit down awhile & explain to you, or anyone else, the difference between claiming unassailable correctness & acknowledging that only God can claim such? You are angered because I encouraged mouse to seek his or her own understanding through earnest prayer & seeking in Godly fashion? Right then. Humility is wrong according to you & your band of accusers. Understood......

    I know this is from page 1, but I am quoting it here, because, Jude, for all your proclamation of innocent and humble intent in all your posts, it is very hard to read this as anything other than a snide attempt to put down Boogie, in a holier-than-thou tone. Which in a way is fine - people can be snide and play one-upmanship games when they get frustrated with each other, so you certainly are not the only one - but at least own it, be real, and stop trying to persuade us that everything you say is with deeply humble, sincere, godly intent.
  • Err yeah, I was trying very hard to believe that Brother Jude wasn't being insincere in his most recent posts and trying to assume good faith.

    But I agree with fineline, that required quite a lot of deliberately ignoring the things previously said.
  • "Swill"? This deserves a presumption of goodwill?
  • fineline wrote: »
    Admittedly I see no multi-quote here so I'll address each comment separately, as time allows.
    Boogie wrote: »
    @Brother Jude said - The bible also teaches us not to argue amongst ourselves so I'll leave it there.

    Where is the laughing and bashing the floor emoji - I really need it!

    I came here because this is hilarious. What is Purgatory for if not argument/discussion?

    This also drives me maaad. 😤 😡

    “On that note, I do not ask that you, or anyone, simply take my word for it. Go to the WORD, pray on it, if you will.”

    To be told that we’ll agree with you if we read the Bible and pray enough.

    What?

    Why?

    Why would your point of view be THE one which we found in our reading of the text. Utter piffle. 🙄🙄

    Hmmm let me see if I've distilled this swill properly. You are angry, unsatisfied, disturbed by, or otherwise discontented with the expression of a biblical admonishment against dissention in the body of believers, used in context to express my personal lack of desire to undertake tedious, inane, pseudo-intellectual babble, which presents no conceivable end or beginning (circular logic if you will). Should I apologize for such affront?

    As to the latter point......do I need to sit down awhile & explain to you, or anyone else, the difference between claiming unassailable correctness & acknowledging that only God can claim such? You are angered because I encouraged mouse to seek his or her own understanding through earnest prayer & seeking in Godly fashion? Right then. Humility is wrong according to you & your band of accusers. Understood......

    I know this is from page 1, but I am quoting it here, because, Jude, for all your proclamation of innocent and humble intent in all your posts, it is very hard to read this as anything other than a snide attempt to put down Boogie, in a holier-than-thou tone. Which in a way is fine - people can be snide and play one-upmanship games when they get frustrated with each other, so you certainly are not the only one - but at least own it, be real, and stop trying to persuade us that everything you say is with deeply humble, sincere, godly intent.

    As I said I apologize or any misunderstanding, and can see how such statements can be easily mistook. I often run into trouble when communicating in real life because the idioms and analogies I often find preferable are foreign, at least, to their ears. As I previously intoned my intent behind including the word "swill" in my sentence was to indicate the bitter feeling that the admonishment, with which Boogie met me, left in my stomach and heart. I was not anticipating such reaction, to my own chagrin.
  • swill (noun)
    a (1) : a semiliquid food for animals (such as swine) composed of the animal or vegetable refuse of kitchens, markets, or stores, mixed with water or skimmed or sour milk : slop, wash (2) : a hog ration made of distillery slop
    b : food refuse : garbage
    2 : something suggestive of slop or garbage : something evoking disgust : hogwash, refuse

    It's not a case of statements being "readily mistook." Reading "swill" to mean one of the above definitions is not misreading it. Take some responsibility for your actions. You MISSPOKE. We did not MISREAD.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    I called your words ‘utter piffle’, you called mine ‘swill’.

    That’s fine - this is Hell.

    But don’t pretend your swill is more shiny and godly than my piffle.

    It isn’t.

  • fineline wrote: »
    Admittedly I see no multi-quote here so I'll address each comment separately, as time allows.
    Boogie wrote: »
    @Brother Jude said - The bible also teaches us not to argue amongst ourselves so I'll leave it there.

    Where is the laughing and bashing the floor emoji - I really need it!

    I came here because this is hilarious. What is Purgatory for if not argument/discussion?

    This also drives me maaad. 😤 😡

    “On that note, I do not ask that you, or anyone, simply take my word for it. Go to the WORD, pray on it, if you will.”

    To be told that we’ll agree with you if we read the Bible and pray enough.

    What?

    Why?

    Why would your point of view be THE one which we found in our reading of the text. Utter piffle. 🙄🙄

    Hmmm let me see if I've distilled this swill properly. You are angry, unsatisfied, disturbed by, or otherwise discontented with the expression of a biblical admonishment against dissention in the body of believers, used in context to express my personal lack of desire to undertake tedious, inane, pseudo-intellectual babble, which presents no conceivable end or beginning (circular logic if you will). Should I apologize for such affront?

    As to the latter point......do I need to sit down awhile & explain to you, or anyone else, the difference between claiming unassailable correctness & acknowledging that only God can claim such? You are angered because I encouraged mouse to seek his or her own understanding through earnest prayer & seeking in Godly fashion? Right then. Humility is wrong according to you & your band of accusers. Understood......

    I know this is from page 1, but I am quoting it here, because, Jude, for all your proclamation of innocent and humble intent in all your posts, it is very hard to read this as anything other than a snide attempt to put down Boogie, in a holier-than-thou tone. Which in a way is fine - people can be snide and play one-upmanship games when they get frustrated with each other, so you certainly are not the only one - but at least own it, be real, and stop trying to persuade us that everything you say is with deeply humble, sincere, godly intent.

    As I said I apologize or any misunderstanding, and can see how such statements can be easily mistook. I often run into trouble when communicating in real life because the idioms and analogies I often find preferable are foreign, at least, to their ears. As I previously intoned my intent behind including the word "swill" in my sentence was to indicate the bitter feeling that the admonishment, with which Boogie met me, left in my stomach and heart. I was not anticipating such reaction, to my own chagrin.

    Brother Jude, you are, in fact, John Bunyan, having lighted on a Den as you walk through the Wilderness of this world, and I therefore claim my £5.

  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Hmm, the swill part is just one small aspect of many things in that post. I was thinking more about the general content and style of (to sum up): 'You are angry at the good, biblical things I am saying and my lack of interest in the pseudo-intellectual babble you lot are spouting. Gosh, do I actually need to sit down and explain to you? You are angry at my goodness and humility and biblicalness. Clearly you and your band of accusers think humility and goodness is wrong - hmm, okay then. Clearly you are a bunch of rotters to hold such utterly unchristian views!'

    Which, to be frank, is bollocks. Passive aggressive, sweeping statements, with no basis in reality, and no insight into what others are saying to you. Your post sounded far more vitriolic than boogie's - she sounded simply frustrated and amused, and was letting you know in a direct but not hostile way. You were dictating to her how she was feeling, and what she believed, rather than listening and clarifying.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    edited March 2019
    ...That said, should your seeking have rendered a contrary answer to my prior statement I would have had to ask, "Is what I have concluded truly of God?" If not then how had I been deceived?
    Decades ago, as an insecure 16-year-old, I was proselytized by Mormons. I actually read everything they gave me; they took that as a sign that I was ripe for conversion. They urged me to pray the prayer of Moroni. I did - and got an answer: that the Book of Mormon (and thus the works of Joseph Smith) was not of God but of a seriously flawed man.

    When the missionaries asked me, I told them. "Don't you think it's possible that the Devil was whispering in your ear?" the cuter one asked. "Don't you think it's possible that he was whispering in Joseph Smith's ear?" I responded - whereupon the less-cute one informed me that I had rejected the Truth, and would be condemned to eternal hellfire.

    When I read your words about reading the Bible and praying and coming around, I saw a replay of that. I don't do well with that sort of thing. I don't think many people here do.
  • Mmm. Whilst I can understand other reactions, I'm unconvinced that the newbie in question is on the level. But YMMV.

    But that's ok - on the internet people can be whoever they want to be.
  • mr cheesy wrote: »
    Mmm. Whilst I can understand other reactions, I'm unconvinced that the newbie in question is on the level. But YMMV.

    But that's ok - on the internet people can be whoever they want to be.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the same.

    (BTW, I wouldn't class mr cheesy as a Cynical World-Weary Old Git, but I'm afraid I class myself as one.....)[

  • mr cheesy wrote: »
    Mmm. Whilst I can understand other reactions, I'm unconvinced that the newbie in question is on the level. But YMMV.

    But that's ok - on the internet people can be whoever they want to be.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the same.

    (BTW, I wouldn't class mr cheesy as a Cynical World-Weary Old Git, but I'm afraid I class myself as one.....)[

    Oh yes I'm definitely that cynical and world-weary old git.

    In some ways it shouldn't matter or be surprising to find that other shipmates are not entirely who they say they are.

    But I have that nagging feeling we are being played here.
  • Such public speculation is ... unhelpful, for many reasons. Ship's crew have been made aware of various concerns, and we are always reachable by PM. Otherwise, please cease and desist.

    DT
    HH
  • mousethief wrote: »
    swill (noun)
    a (1) : a semiliquid food for animals (such as swine) composed of the animal or vegetable refuse of kitchens, markets, or stores, mixed with water or skimmed or sour milk : slop, wash (2) : a hog ration made of distillery slop
    b : food refuse : garbage
    2 : something suggestive of slop or garbage : something evoking disgust : hogwash, refuse

    It's not a case of statements being "readily mistook." Reading "swill" to mean one of the above definitions is not misreading it. Take some responsibility for your actions. You MISSPOKE. We did not MISREAD.

    How much responsibility s enough for you? I have already acknowledged that my personal way of speaking can often lead to misunderstanding, must I blatantly spell out, "Because I have my own way of putting things"? Is that not already evident in saying " I often run into trouble when communicating in real life because the idioms and analogies I often find preferable are foreign, at least to their ears." Must I break it down yet further? Run into trouble implies that my way of speaking often leads to misunderstandings between myself and others, in which I find myself in trouble. This most often occurs in real life, the real world, the tangible fabric of reality as we know it. I have a tendency toward colorful turns of phrase, hence use of idioms and analogies, which are foreign, uncommon, strange, unintelligible, to others ears, their recognized speech patterns, their commonly encountered usages, etc.

    Further more to say that I "MISSPOKE" would imply that the word or words I used were not being used in my intended context. Yet I did use it within my intended context. I am truly and deeply sorry for the misunderstanding that my use of words have caused but it is just a misunderstanding
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Maybe responsibility for intent, Jude? As it is, it's like you're saying 'Everything I have said here is with perfect, godly, humble, loving motivations, and if people have seen anything unkind or arrogant, it is purely misunderstanding, because I'm such a quirky old thing who uses unusual expressions. I'm so sorry this misunderstanding happened, but it wasn't my fault, because I simply couldn't help it, as my motives were utterly pure.' Which, as I said, isn't really convincing, in the light of certain posts.

    No one's motives are utterly pure. Some people are more self-aware than others, and this includes awareness of motives. Claiming to be constantly utterly humble is a bit of a dodgy area, because the moment one is convinced of one's humility, that veers into pride. Ironically, the humble admit their pride.

    Don't worry too much about your expressions as such. Your words aren't really unusual - well, maybe they are for a 30-something midwestern American guy, as you do use some British turns of phrase, and maybe some old fashioned language, so it might seem odd in your shelter, but we are mostly Brits here anyway, and maybe mostly older than you anyway, so the turns of phrase aren't strange.
  • Advice to Brother Jude: quit digging. Seriously, the more you contest this the more trouble you get yourself into. You've said 'sorry' once, you can't seem to stop yourself from adding justifications which only get people more upset... just walk away from the thread and go play in the Circus or Heaven or something. Take it as a learning experience. But quit digging.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    Such public speculation is ... unhelpful, for many reasons. Ship's crew have been made aware of various concerns, and we are always reachable by PM. Otherwise, please cease and desist.

    DT
    HH

    Point taken, and admonition heeded. Glad to hear that the Crew is aware.


  • One doesn't intend a context. The context you cast your words into is the Ship of Fools. That is the context. You misspoke in this context. One can't intend context. One is in a context or isn't.
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