Hell Calls: Are they acceptable or not ?

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Comments

  • Eutychus wrote: »
    I think the Ship has a huge capacity to tolerate individuals, but no community tolerates all individuals no matter the cost. The fact that a community enforces certain standards doesn't make it a mob.

    Indeed, that's what keeps it from being a mob.
  • Rublev wrote: »
    I think that's what a hell call is. But I'm making a general comment here that simply rebuffing or dismissing someone comments doesn't raise the level of debate or encourage participation in them. It's better to offer a better counter argument to them.

    That was tried. The result was being told we're just not spiritual enough.
  • Rublev wrote: »
    @Eutychus

    It would be complete hypocrisy to do that given my OP.

    Doing it here doesn't make it better.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Rublev wrote: »
    @Dafyd

    What I had more in mind was the reason which prompted the latest hell call. It should be reasonable enough to cite the Bible in defence of your opinion as long as you can back up your argument. I'm a liberal myself but I recognise that there are other hermeneutics. And it creates a more inclusive discussion.

    If people had felt that the Bible citation had actually been followed by backing up the argument, I doubt the Hell call would have happened.

    Hi orfeo! Long time no see. Hope you are doing well.
  • Rublev wrote: »
    If you want a further comment then I would say that theology is not boring, it is exciting and it is fascinating. And it is for everyone. You don't need a library to study it because if you go online you can research all the information that you need. And even if you were stranded on a desert island with a Bible the Holy Spirit could reveal the deeper meanings of it to you. So nobody should feel intimidated or disempowered about taking part in any discussions. And we can all aspire to present as reasoned an argument as Eutychus.

    Bit of a reading-for-comprehension problem here. Nobody should feel intimidated or disempowered for taking part in discussions. But posting bible verses and saying "go pray and you will see I am right" (or equivalent) IS NOT TAKING PART IN A DISCUSSION but stopping the discussion cold.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    An official reminder, because it would be a Bad Thing if this thread were to go off the rails: the Styx is for discussion of Ship's business. Please stay on the topic of the function of Hell for the Ship's forums. Personal comments and criticisms must be taken to Hell. Discussion of what constitutes a strong argument and the place of citing the Bible in mounting arguments belongs in Purgatory.

    Ruth, Styx Host

    Apologies if I transcended this; I just now read it (I tend to read and respond to threads in chronological order).
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Cross-posts happen, no worries, but it is always advisable to read to the end of a thread before posting, and six posts in a row is, well, a lot. Yikes.
  • Yeah, I'll try to collect them into fewer posts. This thread was already huge when I got here this morning.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    Small suggestion: Could "Why is there a Hell board?" be added to the FAQs? Many of the usual explanations could be summarized there.

    Every time some shiny new idealist shows up asking about this, they could simply be directed to "Please see the FAQs" instead of having to re-litigate the existence of Hell every. single. time.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    As a veteran of the message board days of old (hello, Prodigy and AOL), I applaud the existence of Hell; as others have said, it acts as a pressure valve, and allows the other areas' discussions to stay on topic. I was called to Hell a few times in my early days aboard the Ship, and I learned from it.

    I haven't seen any calls recently that seemed to me unreasonable. I do like @Leaf's idea of adding "Why is there a Hell board?" to the FAQs. It might save some time and aggravation.

  • Seconded.
  • They'll still re-litigate it, you know. Because you haven't heard their version™ of the arguments against it yet. And naturally you will be dumbstruck with awe when you do.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    Leaf wrote: »
    Small suggestion: Could "Why is there a Hell board?" be added to the FAQs? Many of the usual explanations could be summarized there.

    Every time some shiny new idealist shows up asking about this, they could simply be directed to "Please see the FAQs" instead of having to re-litigate the existence of Hell every. single. time.

    Ahem. Please see the FAQs.

    Especially the bits entitled "What is the Hell Forum?" and "how do I take an argument to Hell?"...

  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    As well as the bit on Hell under Which forum is which?.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »

    Ahem. I had, which is why I knew the specific rationale for the Hell board wasn't there. To be specific, I would suggest severing the last sentence and a half to be the start of the rationale of Hell: it’s intended to keep the rest of our debate space clear of personal conflict. Hell has worked well for us for a long time. And then adding some of the usual stuff about containment, The Blessed Erin, TINACW, etc.

    Probably Lamb Chopped is right, and certain posters will want to re-litigate its presence. Ah well. "Grey rocking" may be a useful tool. "Oh you don't think there should be a Hell on a Christian website? Please refer to our FAQs!" Repeat as often as necessary until a host or admin tells the would-be litigant to knock it off.



  • I think it's probably not a bad thing to have this discussion from time to time because it reminds us just why we have Hell and why it's a good thing. (the board, not the state of eternal punishment)
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Yes, I think these discussions are good. They clarify it more than the FAQ, and let people question. Not that the FAQ isn't helpful, but the Hell board is something that seems unique to the Ship (at least, I've not seen anything like it on any other site), so often does need a bit of explaining. Doesn't necessarily mean the person is naive or idealist for asking - it is just such a different sort of concept, it can take a while to get your head round it, even if you think being open and direct and confronting issues is a good thing.
  • TubbsTubbs Admin
    edited March 2019
    They'll still re-litigate it, you know. Because you haven't heard their version™ of the arguments against it yet. And naturally you will be dumbstruck with awe when you do.

    In all the years I've been here, no one has yet come up with an argument for abolishing the Hell board that doesn't basically consist of "You're all so mean" followed by a statement about how conflict makes them feel uncomfortable / isn't Christian.

    But I am totally up for being dumbstruck with awe.
  • I live to see it!
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    IIRC, it was years before I noticed it, AFF. There, I didn't find it useful. Here, it seems to be the easiest way to access things. (Possibly because I still don't feel very comfortable on this site yet.)
    That's interesting - I find this site and the way it works much easier to navigate; maybe that is because another site I go to had already changed to a similar one.
  • Rublev wrote: »
    I think there is a better way to go about it than appealing to the worst side in human nature. A rebuke from a recognised elder of the community when someone commits an error is very much in the NT tradition.
    Ah, now there, I strongly disagree. We are all adults and therefore should most definitely treat all other members as equals. I'll slap my own wrist, thank you! As soon as an 'elder'tries to stand me up before the desk for a telling-off, I might well be calling them to Hell!
    Ahell call inviting people to join in with atetacking someone is not.
    And I found 'my' Hell call to be a most interesting thread/discussion and learnt a lot.

  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Rublev, for what it's worth, you might take into consideration the fact that you've been aboard this "ship" about 2 months, and in some (unofficial) ways still a newbie. Yet the ship, Hell included, has been sailing effectively for decades. Granted, not everyone finds ship culture (Hell included) to their liking, and they sometimes disembark after a bit. That's OK; this isn't a democracy, nor a popularity contest, nor a competition for Premiere Discussion Board on the Internet.

    Those who appreciate the ship (Hell included) remain. You needn't tinker with Hell (it's already been tinkered into shape to the general satisfaction of Remainers Who Visit the Nether Regions -- not all Remainers do). You only need to determine if you personally find ship culture more beneficial than not to your own interests, aims, and ends. If you decide to Remain, but still dislike Hell, you're perfectly free to ignore its existence.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    I'm more of a 'general' Hell thread reader than 'specific-person' Hell thread reader, as I'm one of those I-hate-conflict people described above.

    But if I have dipped into a person call thread, generally as I'm shocked at who was called!, I can see the benefit (especially in comparison to some other forums where bitter arguments and pig-headedness ruin any chance of discussion).

    I am someone who has come and gone over almost 18 years; and I do keep coming back -- primarily for the discussion and the wonderful Shipmates. But also because this Ship runs so well (well done hosts and admins!) -- and, to me at least, Hell plays a large part in that.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    Ohher, this is very honest too. I can see that I responded too directly by setting up a post. It would have been better to have PMed my concerns to the Hosts. So I apologise to everyone for disturbing the harmony of the ship.
  • No, don't apologise. Styx is here so that shipmates (no matter how new) can ask questions of the crew (no matter how often we've been round the same block). No harm, no foul.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    That is very gracious of you Doc Tor. Peace to all.
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    It may seem odd that a community dedicated to Christian unrest should be doing something 'because we've always done it'! But there are those of us who can remember that actually, we haven't always done it. Way back before the Ship even had its different decks, when the crew were smaller and Captain Simon was generous with the rum... ah, those were interesting days. Hell was created for good reasons, and over the years it's been honed into what it is now. It's not somewhere I venture often, as I am definitely of the fluffy bunny persuasion. But I'm glad it's there.

    Let me tell you about another discussion board I spend a lot of time on. It's one of the nicest places in cyber-space. And I mean 'nice' as both a good and bad thing. People are generally friendly and helpful. But when it comes to a hot-button topic - and all communities have them - you sometimes end up with a lot of passive-aggressive muttering and vague remarks about how 'this place isn't what it was'.

    It's generally well hosted, but I do sometimes long for the open and honest atmosphere of a Hell equivalent!
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Rublev wrote: »
    Ohher, this is very honest too. I can see that I responded too directly by setting up a post.

    What on earth does that mean?
    Rublev wrote: »
    It would have been better to have PMed my concerns to the Hosts. So I apologise to everyone for disturbing the harmony of the ship.

    Dear Rublev, you prove my point; you are still a newbie. The concerns you raise have been raised in Styx at other times by other newbies; it's not in the least disturbing, but instead par for the course, though I confess to some surprise at your impressions of ship "harmony." Harmony's for Heaven; ranting's for Hell; Purgatory is rather more like choir practice, where the sopranos show up on Thursday night along with the only tenor and a couple of altos, but at Sunday morning brush-up the sopranos are out with the flu, all the altos turn up with the basses, but the tenor sidles off to a soccer match because he couldn't hit the high notes in the anthem anyway.

  • Rublev, to keep you rather busy and out of trouble here is a history of the Ship. It got left behind on the old boards but it is worth reading.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    Fascinating - there should be a sequel!
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    Rublev, to keep you rather busy and out of trouble here is a history of the Ship. It got left behind on the old boards but it is worth reading.

    Simon’s titanic avatar.

    Erin’s croc.

    🥰

  • Boogie you did that deliberately didn't you? You know its not a Crocodile but an Alligator.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    Boogie you did that deliberately didn't you? You know its not a Crocodile but an Alligator.

    Hehe 😂

    Rublev wrote: »
    Fascinating - there should be a sequel!

    There is - you are sailing in it 😇
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    Rublev, to keep you rather busy and out of trouble here is a history of the Ship. It got left behind on the old boards but it is worth reading.

    Simon’s titanic avatar.

    Erin’s croc.

    🥰

    What gets me is the fact that the OP is now from the best part of 20 years ago, and I had already been onboard for some time by then :scream:

    @leaf the admins (or at least those in the Northern Hemisphere) are busy sunning themselves on the decks in a pleasant spring and being served GIN by the more compliant hosts, but when we don't have anything better to do, we'll take a look at your suggestion for dusting down the FAQs. Thanks.
  • From Erin's comments here
    The other hot topic, which was so very recently resurrected and subsequently beaten to a bloody pulp, is the likening of a member's position to that of a universally-reviled group. That generates far too much heat, and absolutely no light, so in the interest of community preservation that is simply out of bounds. A big explosion a year ago over this particular technique (note: I was not involved in that debate AT ALL) led us to implement this policy.

    We also had a shipmate who was in the habit of telling those who did not agree with his interpretations of the Bible that they were going straight to hell. Again, huge argument, so that's out of bounds.

    I had a feeling these two things weren't tolerated and this has reminded me why.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    The 2002 thread led to the Future History of the Ship. Chapelhead's 2003 prediction of the 2014 Ship shows both piercing accuracy and a rather large margin of error regarding our tolerance levels in real 2019:
    September 2014. An Apprentice starts the 784th thread on the subject “Why is everyone so beastly to each other in Hell, I thought this was supposed to be a Christian site”. From her secret underground bunker deep in the Everglades, Erin launches a quantum torpedo. 13 seconds later the Apprentice is vaporized.
  • Oh Blessed Gator how you and your zingers are missed.

    AFF
  • Amen.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Oh Blessed Gator how you and your zingers are missed.
    Ahh-men.

    I think of her often.


  • She was definitely an original!
  • yes.
  • MooMoo Kerygmania Host
    The ship would not have survived without her.
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