Gee D, nit-picking pedant

Over here in Purgatory, @Gee D is in the middle of derailing yet another thread with his nit-picking pedantic desire to prove people wrong.
Gee D wrote: »
That also is possible. What I was trying to do was get away from the comments by Curiosity Killed which suggested to me that some parents in times past deliberately ignored illnesses/conditions which contributed to the child's behaviour; rather they did so as they shared the general lack of knowledge about them.

You have just decided to derail this thread because a throw away phrase suggested to you something. So you had to come and put the uppity poster down.

This particular post had absolutely nothing to do with transgender. As I said on the thread it was a general point as to the way that one child turns out differently in families, with no particular suggestion that parents deliberately ignored children. What I actually said was: and if the family isn't supportive, pushing the child's needs, without elaborating there, because this was already a tangent, was that I can think of a lot of reasons why the family might not be supportive. There was no a suggestion of wilful rejection, that is something you have read into that phrase. What was actually intended was that the busy family was not supportive for whatever reason, and a Shipmate with less need to prove uppity posters wrong would, no doubt, have read the gentler phrasing into my words.

This is a pattern from you, in the last month, on threads I've been reading, there are several other examples:

Example 2: the What did you call me? was derailed into half a page of schwa discussion.

Example 3 continuing tangent on the Biblical Inerrancy thread.

Example 4 from the Brexit thread.

I could go on, but this is to take another bloody tangent off the thread. Gee D, this is not an adversarial court of law, it's a discussion board. You should not, must not derail threads by your pathetic need to prove yourself right by picking up on every perceived inaccuracy or thing outside your experience. Just read and learn.
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Comments

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited January 2019
    I misread part of a post from you, and apologised. As to the others - clearly you don't understand intellectual curiosity. Indeed, the schwa discussion arose from my use of what I'd learnt as a technical term, one not recognised by others.
  • I saw the apology, when I had composed this thread, and was about to pull the draft, when you followed the post apologising up with (link):
    Gee D wrote: »
    Lothlorien talks of her days teaching and of doing her training in the '60s. I wonder if she can throw any light.
    which suggested you have every intention of continuing to argue the point, rather negating the apology.

    There are several ways of pursuing intellectual curiosity - for discussions on language there's always the grammar thread in Heaven (link), or in this instance, there is the option of starting a new thread on the history of special needs recognition and support in schools if it's such a burning issue for you.
  • When derails happen, I tend to go and read something else, but I mind on the topic of trans, as erasure is one of the perils that trans people face.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Well, now, asking Gee D to stop nit-picking pedantry is to ask xem not to post anything within xyr realm of talent.
  • I saw the apology, when I had composed this thread, and was about to pull the draft, when you followed the post apologising up with (link):
    Gee D wrote: »
    Lothlorien talks of her days teaching and of doing her training in the '60s. I wonder if she can throw any light.
    which suggested you have every intention of continuing to argue the point, rather negating the apology.

    Funny. That's not what that says. Looks like you're not reading what Gee-D actually says, but putting the absolute worst spin on everything. Because to me that reads like, 'I want to learn more from someone who knows more.'
  • Example 3 continuing tangent on the Biblical Inerrancy thread.
    FWIW, I read that as a response to the particular form of inerrancy—granted, a non-biblical inerrancy—that @Martin54 was putting forth in that thread.
  • I agree Martin54 is being a total pain across several boards. I did try to challenge him on his Hell thread, here and here, as that is supposed to where Shipmates can challenge his behaviour. If that thread keeps being derailed it's unhelpful.

    However I'm not sure Gee D needed to push his point for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 posts. I'd agree that that was mostly Martin54, but he wouldn't have continued that tangent for so long if he hadn't had the encouragement from Gee D.

    I've just checked, because I had absorbed a requirement to take tangents elsewhere, and it is part of the Purgatory Guidelines:
    3. Stick to the point!

    Please do not wander off into unrelated issues or social banter. There are other boards on the ship for these pursuits.
    which also apply to Dead Horses Guidelines
    2. The rules

    Dead Horses is really an extension of Purgatory, so not only do the Ship of Fools 10 Commandments apply, so do the Purgatory guidelines. We ask that you respect your fellow contributors by adhering to them.
    From my understanding of those guidelines and several years on the Ship, the way to deal with tangents that interest you (general you) is to start a new thread to discuss them, rather than derail the current thread. I do try to follow that guideline and have just checked to find that 7 of the 23 threads I've started on the New Ship™ have been to pursue tangents.
  • OK, I know, target and all the rest, but I don't want to derail the MPaul thread and am so flabbergasted by this exchange ... which starts here:
    Gee D wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    Thank you for the OP. I realise that Ruth is gay and that the ship has many gay members who would react similarly.

    And many straight members agree with Ruth, including me. For a long time after I was indecently assaulted by a gay man, I too was anti-gay. Then I realised that the wrongdoing I'd undergone should not be held against gays generally.
    Gee D wrote: »
    It was not at work, but a social function. I realised that the crime of man was his responsibility only, not of gays in general.

    and ends up here:
    Gee D wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    ((Gee))

    Thanks - it was 45 odd years ago and was a grope at a socialite party. As assaults go, it was not bad at all, but still had the effect described. I'm grateful to those who helped me get past it.

    Aw, poor widdle entitled male, having to get over being groped once by a man. Groping is so obviously offensive as to make you anti-gay.

    You are so fucking lucky being a man. As a woman, I can't remember, let alone count, the number of times I've been groped by handsy men or dealt with men getting off on rubbing up against women on the tube or being downright assaulted.

    The sense of entitlement took my breath away. That one grope once is enough to upset a man for 45 years.
  • I really don’t think it helps to castigate anyone, regardless of sex or gender, who discloses they were subject to unwanted sexual contact.

    (Nor did he in fact say it took him 45 years to come to terms with it. Only that it happened 45 years ago.)
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    We feel what we feel - and shouldn’t compare traumas. Some people get over them, others are affected for life.

    The same with illness - ‘that’s nothing, I’m suffering ***’ type of comments aren’t helpful either.

    You may be suffering terribly/have suffered terribly but you can still commiserate with someone who has a bad cold.
  • No, you're both right, I shouldn't have called Gee D out on this, because it's not his fault and being assaulted is horrible. I should have ranted about the system in general that means women are sexually assaulted as a matter of course.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Apology accepted
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Example 3 continuing tangent on the Biblical Inerrancy thread.
    FWIW, I read that as a response to the particular form of inerrancy—granted, a non-biblical inerrancy—that @Martin54 was putting forth in that thread.

    The speed of light and the age of the universe and the rational fact of infinite eternal material are non-biblical inerrancies that have impact on biblical interpretation still, on SoF, including that of otherwise liberals. My PPE (Philosophy Politics & Economics) mate is so postmodern he can't grasp them as absolutes either.

    But, my apologies if that was not sticking to the point of the Dead Horse of inerrancy. Which just checking the rules, is the case.

    So, my apology stands and I will try and force myself to remember that as I do respect, value the rules.
  • No, you're both right, I shouldn't have called Gee D out on this, because it's not his fault and being assaulted is horrible. I should have ranted about the system in general that means women are sexually assaulted as a matter of course.

    This.

    Nicely put.

    Though I see your point @Curiosity killed . Rant away, by all means - one day, it may have some positive effect. He said, hopefully......
  • No, you're both right, I shouldn't have called Gee D out on this, because it's not his fault and being assaulted is horrible. I should have ranted about the system in general that means women are sexually assaulted as a matter of course.

    But thank you for noticing and bringing it up, because I was thinking the same thing - if I had a nickel for every time a man copped a feel or wedged his erection between my buttocks in crowded public transit then I should be a very wealthy man hater for the rest of my life.

    I learned early how to get even with the frotteurs in public - I would exclaim at the top of my voice "EW! Oh my GOD! If you don't remove your DICK from my BUTT this instant, I am going to gouge both your eyeballs with my thumbs!" Guy would always give himself away buy turning around, and then everyone would be looking at him and poof, he was off the train at the very next stop.

    I'm sorry that Gee had such an experience. Nobody should. A 45 year grudge is a long time to carry a single event.

    It says something about the resilience of women that they endure this type of thing daily, weekly, and just get on with their business. Not that they don't feel exactly like Gee. Just that they don't all hate men for 45 years on account of it.

    AFF

  • Though they'd be forgiven for doing so.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    FWIW, I had the same initial instinctive reaction as you, CK, but yes, then thought about it and, like you, saw it as a societal thing. When it happens to a man, they can be outraged, and know it is absolutely wrong, but so often woman are socialised that it's the norm, that it's just a bit of fun, that the poor men can't control their instincts, that women are mean if they reject advances or make a fuss, even that they should be flattered to get the attention. Men don't have that particular societal baggage around this sort of thing. If they are groped, they are free to see it as a big deal, to talk about it, and expect others to see it as utterly unacceptable. I've seen also online other guys talk about such things, and it always strikes me how free they feel to say how awful and traumatising it is, with an expectation that people will agree. No feeling the need to justify or underplay their reaction, as women are socialised to. Definitely the system and double standards in society need to be ranted about.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    I can still recall reading in an 'advice to girls' book how such behaviour was described as perfectly normal and "gave great pleasure to the man".
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Had exactly the same reaction as the other women here. The first time I was groped by a man on the street I was 11. 45 years later I'd be over it if it hadn't happened so many other times I lost count. And now I know I never will. So many strangers have grabbed my ass that I flinch if a sexual partner does it. Yeah, TMI, but since my sexuality has already been introduced as a part of the discussion on another thread in Hell, I just don't care.

    I agree that comparing one person's trauma to another's is useless - pain is pain - but given what men in general have to put up with vs. what women do, men who share such personal experiences in public would do well to consider their audience.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    The grim truth of the gender disparity of society's permissiveness for harassment cannot be overstated.

    Also true, and worth changing, is the toxic masculinity ideal that both feeds such harassment and makes males feel it impossible to admit their own victimhood. Maybe we should all just try to be people a bit more.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Yes, that is why I was careful to say 'men don't have this particular societal baggage.' They have other societal baggage.

    I wonder, regarding what Ruth says about how men should consider their audience when sharing personal experience - surely that could be applied to all sorts of things, and I'm not sure how possible it is. When people complain about money issues, there will be people far poorer, for instance. And within women sharing experiences, there will be vast differences, and privileges many take for granted that others don't have - thinking of the complaint often made these days that the prominent feminist voices have tended to be white, middle class, cis, non-disabled, etc. Do we, whenever we voice a personal painful experience, counter it with 'Ah, but I realise it's far worse for people of minority groups of which I'm not a part?'

    I honestly don't know the best way to approach this, but I think is goes far beyond male/female issues. I sometimes see things people post about their difficulties and I also see they have all sorts of privileges I don't have, and they seem to take for granted, or they don't acknowledge that others may not have these privileges. And sometimes I get an internal reaction of the kind that CK posted here. But equally I reason what others have reasoned here, that each person's suffering is unique to them. Is it maybe a thing we are socialised as women to do, to undermine our experience of pain by acknowledging others have it worse? Or is this something that we should be always doing?
  • There's deep neurology that underpins trauma - the work of Antonio Damasio and Les Fehmi have shown that trauma activates the same circuitry in us all, and it doesn't matter what the severity of the initial event, the effects are the same.

    So the trauma of someone remembering when they were five years old and the grownups passing around a birthday cake and there was none left for her lights up the same regions of the brain and activates the flood of stress hormones in exactly the same way as someone remembering seeing their parents killed in a car accident.

    When I began to understand this, that's when I began to be able to understand how we are all at the mercy of sensory cues in the environment that trigger traumatic recall/flashback and the attendant physiological reflexes. We are ALL suffering to some extent from PTSD.

    The key that unlocked forgiveness for me was finding the routine that interrupts the neurofeedback circuitry of the traumatic recall.

    To be able to remember the event and to feel its importance without feeling the toxic flood of emotions and physiological stimulus that accompanied it - that to me was the alpha and omega of the healing that we call forgiveness.

    AFF





  • RooK wrote: »
    The grim truth of the gender disparity of society's permissiveness for harassment cannot be overstated.

    Also true, and worth changing, is the toxic masculinity ideal that both feeds such harassment and makes males feel it impossible to admit their own victimhood. Maybe we should all just try to be people a bit more.

    Yes this thread took a serious dive into "Men, sexually assaulted? Shut the fuck up" territory. It appears to have veered back from that nastiness. Which is every bit as part of the patriarchy as men assaulting women on trains.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    No, you're both right, I shouldn't have called Gee D out on this, because it's not his fault and being assaulted is horrible. I should have ranted about the system in general that means women are sexually assaulted as a matter of course.
    poof, he was off the train at the very next stop.

    I'm sorry that Gee had such an experience. Nobody should. A 45 year grudge is a long time to carry a single event.

    It says something about the resilience of women that they endure this type of thing daily, weekly, and just get on with their business. Not that they don't feel exactly like Gee. Just that they don't all hate men for 45 years on account of it.

    AFF

    I have no idea where the idea that I held a 45 year grudge has come from. It is about 45 years since the incident, that's all. What the assault did do was reinforce the prejudices with which so many of us (probably most men here and I'd guess the same for the US, UK, NZ and Canada as well) grew up with in the 40s and 60s. It took me until the late 80s to get past those prejudices.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    No, you're both right, I shouldn't have called Gee D out on this, because it's not his fault and being assaulted is horrible. I should have ranted about the system in general that means women are sexually assaulted as a matter of course.

    But thank you for noticing and bringing it up, because I was thinking the same thing - if I had a nickel for every time a man copped a feel or wedged his erection between my buttocks in crowded public transit then I should be a very wealthy man hater for the rest of my life.

    I learned early how to get even with the frotteurs in public - I would exclaim at the top of my voice "EW! Oh my GOD! If you don't remove your DICK from my BUTT this instant, I am going to gouge both your eyeballs with my thumbs!" Guy would always give himself away buy turning around, and then everyone would be looking at him and poof, he was off the train at the very next stop.

    I'm sorry that Gee had such an experience. Nobody should. A 45 year grudge is a long time to carry a single event.

    It says something about the resilience of women that they endure this type of thing daily, weekly, and just get on with their business. Not that they don't feel exactly like Gee. Just that they don't all hate men for 45 years on account of it.

    AFF

    The first time I was groped was in high school in an art class. This guy grabbed my boob after he had tried some rather sleazy small talk to me. I yelled, "Get your hands off me!" and he scooted away. The teacher (woman) said nothing. I'm not sure if that was because she thought I handled it fine or because she wasn't sure what to say.
  • Gee D wrote: »

    I have no idea where the idea that I held a 45 year grudge has come from. It is about 45 years since the incident, that's all. What the assault did do was reinforce the prejudices with which so many of us (probably most men here and I'd guess the same for the US, UK, NZ and Canada as well) grew up with in the 40s and 60s. It took me until the late 80s to get past those prejudices.

    Oh OK. I'm clearly not reading for comprehension. My apologies.

    I'm glad you were able to get past it. Not everyone does.


    AFF

  • I don’t think games like kiss chase really help with building a culture of consent - and that tends to start in primary/elementary school.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    Children can be the target of adult male sexual agression and be really screwed up by it. Sometimes, they turn into adult male sexual agressors themselves. There's a terrible case in Melbourne of a man who was sexually assaulted by his uncle, a serial sexual offender and a Priest. He was prominent in the fight for justice by people who were sexually abused by pedophile priests. But he then offended himself.

    Lots of men were abused as boys, and this abuse often was groping. In the case of Cardinal George Pell, that formed part of the facts found proven by the Jury. Many victims in my state committed suicide after being abused by men in positions of power.

    Please don't downplay the impact of sexual assault on boys and men. Please don't be critical of people who disclose sexual assault. Suffering is not a competitive sport.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    ...Please don't downplay the impact of sexual assault on boys and men. Please don't be critical of people who disclose sexual assault. Suffering is not a competitive sport.
    I would not do so. But after a lifetime of being whistled at and catcalled and occasionally felt up for Walking While Female, being groped for Riding Public Transit While Female, being grabbed backstage for Singing While Female (have I ever told you my Pavarotti story?), dealing with men who thought that paying for dinner entitled them to a bedtime story... well, I did relate to SNL's "Welcome to Hell." YMMV.


  • Why 'but'?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    That video cannot be downloaded here. Can you give a summary or description please.
  • Abuse of boys and men matters every bit as much as abuse of girls and women. (And any other genders.) And abusers can be of any gender.

    When you're in the throes of dealing with your own experiences, or those of someone you know, or someone in the news, it can be hard to remember the above paragraph.

    FWIW.

  • When you're in the throes of dealing with your own experiences, or those of someone you know, or someone in the news, it can be hard to remember the above paragraph.

    excellent stuff.

    I am someone who suffers, but not someone who has suffered abuse. I just wanted to declare that. There is no perpertrator of my suffering except myself, as a result of my mental illness. Maybe that makes it easier for me. My enemies are internal.
  • The SNL video is a link to a Saturday Night Live sketch - song and dance routine - that's described as
    Women (Saoirse Ronan, Cecily Strong, Kate McKinnon, Aidy Bryant, Leslie Jones, Melissa Villaseñor) address the ongoing sexual harassment allegations.

    @Simon Toad the point was, as women, most of us can't remember how many times we have been touched up or groped, it's continuous and never ending. I had a maths teacher when I was about 12, who used to stand behind me, put his hands on my shoulders and rub himself up against me when addressing the class, all the bloody time. I squirmed. He was picking on the youngest and most immature girl in that class (I was a year younger than everyone else) But it wasn't anything I could take to the headteacher - that was normal treatment of girls and women at the time.
  • Last week's episode of the medical drama "Grey's Anatomy" is pertinent and very, very good. It centered on dealing with being raped.

    NOTE: *Massive* trigger warnings for any survivors of rape or other #MeToo experiences. Also warnings for survivors who don't identify as female, because it's about women helping women. And some decent guys who don't *quite* get it.

    I'm not urging anyone to watch it, for the above reasons and because it's very powerful. But, if you're up for it, it's one of the best "Grey's Anatomy" eps ever.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Abuse is unacceptable in any way shape or form.
    With sexual harassment and abuse to straight men there seems to be grey area. A man is expected to accept any kind of sexual advance as it is expected he wants it.
    I remember several years ago I was watching This Morning. A rare occurrence, and a man was on who had taken his female boss to court for sexual harassment. The men on the program were somewhat perplexed. The victim was happily married and loved his wife. He was still seen as odd.
    There is an unconscious assumption that sexual harassment and abuse is something that happens to woman. I wonder if that is what Simon Toad was saying.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    CK, I'm not seeking to criticise or undermine or denigrate the individual experiences of abuse suffered by women, or the systemic nature of those experiences. I'm saying that experiences of sexual abuse shouldn't be ranked. I would prefer victims of sexual abuse, instead of saying BUT my experiences are worse, or BUT you didn't suffer like I suffered, said, 'I also suffer, and here's what happened to me'.

    It may be that where we are all at culturally right now, we need to go into our gender camps to discuss our wounds. I hope not, I don't think so. Perhaps sometimes we do.

    Without scrolling up to check, I think that ranking of suffering is what you apologised for, and that's great. For what its worth, GK has reminded me that sometimes people who are suffering don't react in perfect and well-considered ways. I put my hand up for that.
  • @Hugal - totally - and the abuse of teenage boys by women is negated by people suggesting that the boy is lucky and should be grateful. Women shouldn't deal with the long history of abuse by outdoing men in harassing them back.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    @Hugal - totally - and the abuse of teenage boys by women is negated by people suggesting that the boy is lucky and should be grateful. Women shouldn't deal with the long history of abuse by outdoing men in harassing them back.

    Good to read you're now saying that. Only 3 days ago,on this thread, you said:

    Aw, poor widdle entitled male, having to get over being groped once by a man. Groping is so obviously offensive as to make you anti-gay.

    You are so fucking lucky being a man. As a woman, I can't remember, let alone count, the number of times I've been groped by handsy men or dealt with men getting off on rubbing up against women on the tube or being downright assaulted.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    @Hugal - totally - and the abuse of teenage boys by women is negated by people suggesting that the boy is lucky and should be grateful. Women shouldn't deal with the long history of abuse by outdoing men in harassing them back.

    Good to read you're now saying that. Only 3 days ago,on this thread, you said:

    Aw, poor widdle entitled male, having to get over being groped once by a man. Groping is so obviously offensive as to make you anti-gay.

    You are so fucking lucky being a man. As a woman, I can't remember, let alone count, the number of times I've been groped by handsy men or dealt with men getting off on rubbing up against women on the tube or being downright assaulted.

    Yeah but she walked back from that remark almost immediately.

    And this is hell.

    AFF
  • My first point was that women have been assaulted and harassed by men for ever and expected to put up with it - and I have apologised for being irritated that a man should be upset about being similarly assaulted.

    I agreed with Hugal that men being abused by women - a different thing here -has been considered by society as enjoyable by men, which is not necessarily true and should not be assumed.

    My second point, the one that you have just taken issue with, was that women should not think that the way to deal with the assault and harassment they have suffered by returning the favour.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I have not taken issue with that at all. I totally agree with it.

    AFF - yes, she did withdraw it, but in a pretty half-hearted way. I'm willing to bet that had I not picked her up, she would never have withdrawn it, it's a deep-down and entrenched attitude she has.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    I have not taken issue with that at all. I totally agree with it.

    AFF - yes, she did withdraw it, but in a pretty half-hearted way. I'm willing to bet that had I not picked her up, she would never have withdrawn it, it's a deep-down and entrenched attitude she has.

    I'm sorry Gee.

    I'm afraid that it's probably a deep down entrenched attitude most women have.

    It was my first thought when I read your post on the other thread, and it was the first thought of other women here.

    CK just said what we were thinking. Doesn't make it right. But it does say volumes about how much hostility men bank against themselves when they behave in the manner you encountered.

    What's surprising to me is not that the sentiment was expressed, but that I was able to just sit on my own rage, and let the moment pass, and move over to compassion for you. Just like I've been socialized to do.

    Here you have an opportunity to do the same thing and recognize the pain of CK and others as your own instead of taking swipes at them. I hope you can, because ISTM you are still angry.

    We're all carrying the pain of our own experiences here. Can we try not to be hurt people hurting people?

    AFF





  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    It's about privilege. Men, simply from being men, have a privilege they are often not even aware of. I think I posted a while back the TED talk where a trans woman talks about how, after transitioning, she realised the inherent privilege she had taken for granted all those years while living as a man - she was shocked by all the differences in how she was treated as a woman, while women who have been women all their lives were just nodding and saying 'Er, yes, that's how it is as a woman.' It's worth bearing in mind - when people say they get frustrated with people throwing the privilege card at them, privilege really does make a huge difference. Doesn't stop people suffering, but it gives a whole lot of things they take for granted that others can't take for granted. Being male is one such privilege, and of course there are others, such as being straight, being white, being financially comfortably off, etc.

    It's one of those things not helpful to say to someone while they are suffering - 'Oh, well, at least you've got this privilege - you don't know how lucky you are!' But it is something worth discussing in general discussion, for awareness and sensitivity.
  • fineline wrote: »
    It's about privilege. Men, simply from being men, have a privilege they are often not even aware of. I think I posted a while back the TED talk where a trans woman talks about how, after transitioning, she realised the inherent privilege she had taken for granted all those years while living as a man - she was shocked by all the differences in how she was treated as a woman, while women who have been women all their lives were just nodding and saying 'Er, yes, that's how it is as a woman.' It's worth bearing in mind - when people say they get frustrated with people throwing the privilege card at them, privilege really does make a huge difference. Doesn't stop people suffering, but it gives a whole lot of things they take for granted that others can't take for granted. Being male is one such privilege, and of course there are others, such as being straight, being white, being financially comfortably off, etc.

    It's one of those things not helpful to say to someone while they are suffering - 'Oh, well, at least you've got this privilege - you don't know how lucky you are!' But it is something worth discussing in general discussion, for awareness and sensitivity.

    Privilege that comes from power.

    The thing is, if you are a man, chances are a woman you love - your mother, your sister, your daughter - has come in for this treatment and is harboring resentment that will have its expression.

    It doesn't matter what a woman looks like - the issue is the power and sense of entitlement that enables one human being to feel like they can treat another human being in some manner for their own gratification without the other's consent, and not be held accountable.

    AFF


  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Or the power comes from the privilege. You can see it both ways.

    AFF, I can't tell from your wording if you are disagreeing with me (and if so, with what?) or simply adding points. So not sure how/if to respond. You quoted me, and I'm not quite sure what your point is and how it relates to mine. Or was it to elaborate on the concept of privilege?
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    Just adding points and elaborating on the concept of privilege.

    Sorry for the shorthand ... typing as I think is not the most social thing.

    Apologies.

    AFF
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Ah, no problem, and thanks for clarifying, AFF. I'm sleepy and was wanting to make sure I understood, to respond appropriately.
  • What everyone is saying as to how women are the victims of continuing forms of sexual harassment and assault from childhood and onwards is clearly true. It is also true that this is because of a systemic social issue resulting from our patriarchy. Women are subject to more instances of sexual assault and harassment than men and boys and the way in which people react to male victims is different to the way they react to female victims.

    Critically for this discussion people who are victims can't help but react to this subject through their lingering pain. This applies to all of you who have disclosed here and elsewhere. The incident mightn't have happened recently, but the recollection happened yesterday. We all have a different ability to deal with that.

    For me, not a victim, CK reacted in an entirely human and predictable way given her lifetime of assaults. I, a couple of steps removed if not just sticking my nose in, was happy that she apologised quickly and recognised she'd done the wrong thing. I wish I could wrap her in one of those silver recovery blankets of love.

    Gee disclosed something that happened 45 years ago and that grounds a prejudice in him that he has conquered. But now he's been attacked as an individual for disclosing a sexual assault which had that serious and long-standing effect on him. I'm not surprised that he finds CK's apology insufficient, because he might well be pissed off by this whole thing. I wish I could wrap him in a recovery blanket of love too.

    We need recovery blankets of love all around. Many people here have suffered. Many speak out their suffering, like those posting here, and there are people who are reading and remembering their assaults too, and reacting.

    Sometimes I think we are pain dominos set on their end. As each of us suffer, our domino falls, and sometimes we hit other dominos and cause them to fall too.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Thank you Simon Toad, you come closer to the point than the others.

    As to hurt and consequences - just think of the evidence to the Royal Commission and in courts by those - women and men - abused by priests when they were teenagers (or younger). Other evidence in courts from those abused within the family or by close family friends is even more harrowing. I was fortunate that the assault on me was slight by comparison to some of those. The fact that women have been subjected to the sort of treatment described above and on other threads in no way diminishes the great hurt these people feel.
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