Gee D, nit-picking pedant
Curiosity killed
Shipmate
in Hell
Over here in Purgatory, @Gee D is in the middle of derailing yet another thread with his nit-picking pedantic desire to prove people wrong.
You have just decided to derail this thread because a throw away phrase suggested to you something. So you had to come and put the uppity poster down.
This particular post had absolutely nothing to do with transgender. As I said on the thread it was a general point as to the way that one child turns out differently in families, with no particular suggestion that parents deliberately ignored children. What I actually said was: and if the family isn't supportive, pushing the child's needs, without elaborating there, because this was already a tangent, was that I can think of a lot of reasons why the family might not be supportive. There was no a suggestion of wilful rejection, that is something you have read into that phrase. What was actually intended was that the busy family was not supportive for whatever reason, and a Shipmate with less need to prove uppity posters wrong would, no doubt, have read the gentler phrasing into my words.
This is a pattern from you, in the last month, on threads I've been reading, there are several other examples:
Example 2: the What did you call me? was derailed into half a page of schwa discussion.
Example 3 continuing tangent on the Biblical Inerrancy thread.
Example 4 from the Brexit thread.
I could go on, but this is to take another bloody tangent off the thread. Gee D, this is not an adversarial court of law, it's a discussion board. You should not, must not derail threads by your pathetic need to prove yourself right by picking up on every perceived inaccuracy or thing outside your experience. Just read and learn.
That also is possible. What I was trying to do was get away from the comments by Curiosity Killed which suggested to me that some parents in times past deliberately ignored illnesses/conditions which contributed to the child's behaviour; rather they did so as they shared the general lack of knowledge about them.
You have just decided to derail this thread because a throw away phrase suggested to you something. So you had to come and put the uppity poster down.
This particular post had absolutely nothing to do with transgender. As I said on the thread it was a general point as to the way that one child turns out differently in families, with no particular suggestion that parents deliberately ignored children. What I actually said was: and if the family isn't supportive, pushing the child's needs, without elaborating there, because this was already a tangent, was that I can think of a lot of reasons why the family might not be supportive. There was no a suggestion of wilful rejection, that is something you have read into that phrase. What was actually intended was that the busy family was not supportive for whatever reason, and a Shipmate with less need to prove uppity posters wrong would, no doubt, have read the gentler phrasing into my words.
This is a pattern from you, in the last month, on threads I've been reading, there are several other examples:
Example 2: the What did you call me? was derailed into half a page of schwa discussion.
Example 3 continuing tangent on the Biblical Inerrancy thread.
Example 4 from the Brexit thread.
I could go on, but this is to take another bloody tangent off the thread. Gee D, this is not an adversarial court of law, it's a discussion board. You should not, must not derail threads by your pathetic need to prove yourself right by picking up on every perceived inaccuracy or thing outside your experience. Just read and learn.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
There are several ways of pursuing intellectual curiosity - for discussions on language there's always the grammar thread in Heaven (link), or in this instance, there is the option of starting a new thread on the history of special needs recognition and support in schools if it's such a burning issue for you.
Funny. That's not what that says. Looks like you're not reading what Gee-D actually says, but putting the absolute worst spin on everything. Because to me that reads like, 'I want to learn more from someone who knows more.'
However I'm not sure Gee D needed to push his point for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 posts. I'd agree that that was mostly Martin54, but he wouldn't have continued that tangent for so long if he hadn't had the encouragement from Gee D.
I've just checked, because I had absorbed a requirement to take tangents elsewhere, and it is part of the Purgatory Guidelines: which also apply to Dead Horses Guidelines From my understanding of those guidelines and several years on the Ship, the way to deal with tangents that interest you (general you) is to start a new thread to discuss them, rather than derail the current thread. I do try to follow that guideline and have just checked to find that 7 of the 23 threads I've started on the New Ship™ have been to pursue tangents.
and ends up here:
Aw, poor widdle entitled male, having to get over being groped once by a man. Groping is so obviously offensive as to make you anti-gay.
You are so fucking lucky being a man. As a woman, I can't remember, let alone count, the number of times I've been groped by handsy men or dealt with men getting off on rubbing up against women on the tube or being downright assaulted.
The sense of entitlement took my breath away. That one grope once is enough to upset a man for 45 years.
(Nor did he in fact say it took him 45 years to come to terms with it. Only that it happened 45 years ago.)
The same with illness - ‘that’s nothing, I’m suffering ***’ type of comments aren’t helpful either.
You may be suffering terribly/have suffered terribly but you can still commiserate with someone who has a bad cold.
The speed of light and the age of the universe and the rational fact of infinite eternal material are non-biblical inerrancies that have impact on biblical interpretation still, on SoF, including that of otherwise liberals. My PPE (Philosophy Politics & Economics) mate is so postmodern he can't grasp them as absolutes either.
But, my apologies if that was not sticking to the point of the Dead Horse of inerrancy. Which just checking the rules, is the case.
So, my apology stands and I will try and force myself to remember that as I do respect, value the rules.
This.
Nicely put.
Though I see your point @Curiosity killed . Rant away, by all means - one day, it may have some positive effect. He said, hopefully......
But thank you for noticing and bringing it up, because I was thinking the same thing - if I had a nickel for every time a man copped a feel or wedged his erection between my buttocks in crowded public transit then I should be a very wealthy man hater for the rest of my life.
I learned early how to get even with the frotteurs in public - I would exclaim at the top of my voice "EW! Oh my GOD! If you don't remove your DICK from my BUTT this instant, I am going to gouge both your eyeballs with my thumbs!" Guy would always give himself away buy turning around, and then everyone would be looking at him and poof, he was off the train at the very next stop.
I'm sorry that Gee had such an experience. Nobody should. A 45 year grudge is a long time to carry a single event.
It says something about the resilience of women that they endure this type of thing daily, weekly, and just get on with their business. Not that they don't feel exactly like Gee. Just that they don't all hate men for 45 years on account of it.
AFF
I agree that comparing one person's trauma to another's is useless - pain is pain - but given what men in general have to put up with vs. what women do, men who share such personal experiences in public would do well to consider their audience.
Also true, and worth changing, is the toxic masculinity ideal that both feeds such harassment and makes males feel it impossible to admit their own victimhood. Maybe we should all just try to be people a bit more.
I wonder, regarding what Ruth says about how men should consider their audience when sharing personal experience - surely that could be applied to all sorts of things, and I'm not sure how possible it is. When people complain about money issues, there will be people far poorer, for instance. And within women sharing experiences, there will be vast differences, and privileges many take for granted that others don't have - thinking of the complaint often made these days that the prominent feminist voices have tended to be white, middle class, cis, non-disabled, etc. Do we, whenever we voice a personal painful experience, counter it with 'Ah, but I realise it's far worse for people of minority groups of which I'm not a part?'
I honestly don't know the best way to approach this, but I think is goes far beyond male/female issues. I sometimes see things people post about their difficulties and I also see they have all sorts of privileges I don't have, and they seem to take for granted, or they don't acknowledge that others may not have these privileges. And sometimes I get an internal reaction of the kind that CK posted here. But equally I reason what others have reasoned here, that each person's suffering is unique to them. Is it maybe a thing we are socialised as women to do, to undermine our experience of pain by acknowledging others have it worse? Or is this something that we should be always doing?
So the trauma of someone remembering when they were five years old and the grownups passing around a birthday cake and there was none left for her lights up the same regions of the brain and activates the flood of stress hormones in exactly the same way as someone remembering seeing their parents killed in a car accident.
When I began to understand this, that's when I began to be able to understand how we are all at the mercy of sensory cues in the environment that trigger traumatic recall/flashback and the attendant physiological reflexes. We are ALL suffering to some extent from PTSD.
The key that unlocked forgiveness for me was finding the routine that interrupts the neurofeedback circuitry of the traumatic recall.
To be able to remember the event and to feel its importance without feeling the toxic flood of emotions and physiological stimulus that accompanied it - that to me was the alpha and omega of the healing that we call forgiveness.
AFF
Yes this thread took a serious dive into "Men, sexually assaulted? Shut the fuck up" territory. It appears to have veered back from that nastiness. Which is every bit as part of the patriarchy as men assaulting women on trains.
I have no idea where the idea that I held a 45 year grudge has come from. It is about 45 years since the incident, that's all. What the assault did do was reinforce the prejudices with which so many of us (probably most men here and I'd guess the same for the US, UK, NZ and Canada as well) grew up with in the 40s and 60s. It took me until the late 80s to get past those prejudices.
The first time I was groped was in high school in an art class. This guy grabbed my boob after he had tried some rather sleazy small talk to me. I yelled, "Get your hands off me!" and he scooted away. The teacher (woman) said nothing. I'm not sure if that was because she thought I handled it fine or because she wasn't sure what to say.
Oh OK. I'm clearly not reading for comprehension. My apologies.
I'm glad you were able to get past it. Not everyone does.
AFF
Lots of men were abused as boys, and this abuse often was groping. In the case of Cardinal George Pell, that formed part of the facts found proven by the Jury. Many victims in my state committed suicide after being abused by men in positions of power.
Please don't downplay the impact of sexual assault on boys and men. Please don't be critical of people who disclose sexual assault. Suffering is not a competitive sport.
When you're in the throes of dealing with your own experiences, or those of someone you know, or someone in the news, it can be hard to remember the above paragraph.
FWIW.
excellent stuff.
I am someone who suffers, but not someone who has suffered abuse. I just wanted to declare that. There is no perpertrator of my suffering except myself, as a result of my mental illness. Maybe that makes it easier for me. My enemies are internal.
@Simon Toad the point was, as women, most of us can't remember how many times we have been touched up or groped, it's continuous and never ending. I had a maths teacher when I was about 12, who used to stand behind me, put his hands on my shoulders and rub himself up against me when addressing the class, all the bloody time. I squirmed. He was picking on the youngest and most immature girl in that class (I was a year younger than everyone else) But it wasn't anything I could take to the headteacher - that was normal treatment of girls and women at the time.
NOTE: *Massive* trigger warnings for any survivors of rape or other #MeToo experiences. Also warnings for survivors who don't identify as female, because it's about women helping women. And some decent guys who don't *quite* get it.
I'm not urging anyone to watch it, for the above reasons and because it's very powerful. But, if you're up for it, it's one of the best "Grey's Anatomy" eps ever.
With sexual harassment and abuse to straight men there seems to be grey area. A man is expected to accept any kind of sexual advance as it is expected he wants it.
I remember several years ago I was watching This Morning. A rare occurrence, and a man was on who had taken his female boss to court for sexual harassment. The men on the program were somewhat perplexed. The victim was happily married and loved his wife. He was still seen as odd.
There is an unconscious assumption that sexual harassment and abuse is something that happens to woman. I wonder if that is what Simon Toad was saying.
It may be that where we are all at culturally right now, we need to go into our gender camps to discuss our wounds. I hope not, I don't think so. Perhaps sometimes we do.
Without scrolling up to check, I think that ranking of suffering is what you apologised for, and that's great. For what its worth, GK has reminded me that sometimes people who are suffering don't react in perfect and well-considered ways. I put my hand up for that.
Good to read you're now saying that. Only 3 days ago,on this thread, you said:
Aw, poor widdle entitled male, having to get over being groped once by a man. Groping is so obviously offensive as to make you anti-gay.
You are so fucking lucky being a man. As a woman, I can't remember, let alone count, the number of times I've been groped by handsy men or dealt with men getting off on rubbing up against women on the tube or being downright assaulted.
Yeah but she walked back from that remark almost immediately.
And this is hell.
AFF
I agreed with Hugal that men being abused by women - a different thing here -has been considered by society as enjoyable by men, which is not necessarily true and should not be assumed.
My second point, the one that you have just taken issue with, was that women should not think that the way to deal with the assault and harassment they have suffered by returning the favour.
AFF - yes, she did withdraw it, but in a pretty half-hearted way. I'm willing to bet that had I not picked her up, she would never have withdrawn it, it's a deep-down and entrenched attitude she has.
I'm sorry Gee.
I'm afraid that it's probably a deep down entrenched attitude most women have.
It was my first thought when I read your post on the other thread, and it was the first thought of other women here.
CK just said what we were thinking. Doesn't make it right. But it does say volumes about how much hostility men bank against themselves when they behave in the manner you encountered.
What's surprising to me is not that the sentiment was expressed, but that I was able to just sit on my own rage, and let the moment pass, and move over to compassion for you. Just like I've been socialized to do.
Here you have an opportunity to do the same thing and recognize the pain of CK and others as your own instead of taking swipes at them. I hope you can, because ISTM you are still angry.
We're all carrying the pain of our own experiences here. Can we try not to be hurt people hurting people?
AFF
It's one of those things not helpful to say to someone while they are suffering - 'Oh, well, at least you've got this privilege - you don't know how lucky you are!' But it is something worth discussing in general discussion, for awareness and sensitivity.
Privilege that comes from power.
The thing is, if you are a man, chances are a woman you love - your mother, your sister, your daughter - has come in for this treatment and is harboring resentment that will have its expression.
It doesn't matter what a woman looks like - the issue is the power and sense of entitlement that enables one human being to feel like they can treat another human being in some manner for their own gratification without the other's consent, and not be held accountable.
AFF
AFF, I can't tell from your wording if you are disagreeing with me (and if so, with what?) or simply adding points. So not sure how/if to respond. You quoted me, and I'm not quite sure what your point is and how it relates to mine. Or was it to elaborate on the concept of privilege?
Sorry for the shorthand ... typing as I think is not the most social thing.
Apologies.
AFF
Critically for this discussion people who are victims can't help but react to this subject through their lingering pain. This applies to all of you who have disclosed here and elsewhere. The incident mightn't have happened recently, but the recollection happened yesterday. We all have a different ability to deal with that.
For me, not a victim, CK reacted in an entirely human and predictable way given her lifetime of assaults. I, a couple of steps removed if not just sticking my nose in, was happy that she apologised quickly and recognised she'd done the wrong thing. I wish I could wrap her in one of those silver recovery blankets of love.
Gee disclosed something that happened 45 years ago and that grounds a prejudice in him that he has conquered. But now he's been attacked as an individual for disclosing a sexual assault which had that serious and long-standing effect on him. I'm not surprised that he finds CK's apology insufficient, because he might well be pissed off by this whole thing. I wish I could wrap him in a recovery blanket of love too.
We need recovery blankets of love all around. Many people here have suffered. Many speak out their suffering, like those posting here, and there are people who are reading and remembering their assaults too, and reacting.
Sometimes I think we are pain dominos set on their end. As each of us suffer, our domino falls, and sometimes we hit other dominos and cause them to fall too.
As to hurt and consequences - just think of the evidence to the Royal Commission and in courts by those - women and men - abused by priests when they were teenagers (or younger). Other evidence in courts from those abused within the family or by close family friends is even more harrowing. I was fortunate that the assault on me was slight by comparison to some of those. The fact that women have been subjected to the sort of treatment described above and on other threads in no way diminishes the great hurt these people feel.