Catholic-Apostolic Church
In 2004-5 there was a now limboed thread on this church which left much unanswered. Earlier today I visited the sad remains of the CA church in Bridgnorth. The road frontage is altered but still recognisable from a 1940 photo I have seen, the terrace 'westwork' has be opened up in the middle but the minimal gothic windows each side survive as does the filled outline of the (liturgically) west window. A glimpse of the rear can be obtained from a (private) car park with only the bricked-up upper portions of the nave windows showing. As the door was open I went in as far as the hall (former nave) which looks just like any other small public hall.
In the earlier thread Amphibalus mentioned that he had seen a small chapel with its board describing it as CA somewhere in Shropshire, if that gent is reading this can give any clues as to where in the county it may be (have been) or was certainly not. A lot of work has been done identifying chapels in the county in the last year and this one has not surfaced (or not as CA). One odd item did get a CA label though no one seems to know why, a timber hut on Pontesbury Hill, built in 1926 has been suggested as CA. The date is surely too late and a photo exists from 1930 with the chapels board clearly visible and equally clearly calling it an Apostolic Chapel. Finally does anything ever happen at the Maida Avenue church?
In the earlier thread Amphibalus mentioned that he had seen a small chapel with its board describing it as CA somewhere in Shropshire, if that gent is reading this can give any clues as to where in the county it may be (have been) or was certainly not. A lot of work has been done identifying chapels in the county in the last year and this one has not surfaced (or not as CA). One odd item did get a CA label though no one seems to know why, a timber hut on Pontesbury Hill, built in 1926 has been suggested as CA. The date is surely too late and a photo exists from 1930 with the chapels board clearly visible and equally clearly calling it an Apostolic Chapel. Finally does anything ever happen at the Maida Avenue church?
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The church was being cared for by a Doorkeeper (a minor order in the Catholic Apostolic Church), who had himself carried out a good deal of repair and conservation work, mostly on the vestries.
My visit was arranged privately via the Catholic Apostolic Trustees, based at Gordon Square, though no doubt anyone could attend the Sunday service.
I'd be interested to know if the church is still in use. It is a most splendid building, albeit quite austere within.
(I think it was I who started the thread now in Limbo, BTW! How time flies when you're having Fun.....)
And the 'English Chapel' at the east end of the church is used by Forward-in-Faith for a daily lunchtime Mass....
I don't think there are services at the Maida Vale church any more, though I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
My recollection is one of the minor orders to which all catholic priests are admitted as a pat of their proceeding to ordination as a deacon. It may have been possible for a married man to be admitted as such, or for a doorkeeper later to marry while remaining ordained. A doorkeeper was in holy orders though with all the benefits that brought in criminal law a half dozen and more centuries ago.
Here it is:
https://alburychurches.org/apostolic.html
Wow ! To whom are they making grants?
BTW, anyone who is really, really interested in the Catholic Apostolic Church may like to consult a Very Erudite Book on the subject, to wit:
'Gathered Under Apostles - a Study of the Catholic Apostolic Church' by Father Columba Graham Flegg. It was published by Clarendon Press, Oxford, in 1992.
Father Flegg was Orthodox Chaplain to Cambridge University 1988-1991, and died in 2015. I don't know if he ever published an update to 'Gathered Under Apostles', but it does bring the story of the Catholic Apostolic Church up to date as far as the early 90s are concerned.
Caveat Emptor - the book is quite rare, and I had to resort to AbeBooks to get my copy (from a bookseller in The Netherlands). The price was not quite in three figures.......but it is a well-researched and enlightening book for those interested in such things....
Father Flegg himself worshipped with, and was ministered to by, the congregation in Karlsruhe in the mid-70s.
Yes, there was a desk about half-way down the nave, and it was obvious that this was where the congregation gathered - hopefully in reasonable proximity, and not scattered about in ones and twos in Anglican fashion.
@zoothorn, presumably you used the Liturgy book of 1880 (the final edition), but did you also sing hymns? I vaguely recall seeing a hymn-board with several numbers upon it when I was there. The Catholic Apostolics had their own book, possibly something of a rare find these days.....
An MW Report would doubtless be seemly and edifying, nevertheless!
They're basically episcopi vagantes ("wandering bishops" who claim legitimacy from their lines of apostolic succession which go back to offshoots from the RCC at different points in history) - but with a little more organization than most Independent Catholic (as they call themselves) groups, especially because they started as an offshoot of the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church (ICAB in Portuguese), which was started by a 20th Century real-deal RC bishop and has been treated by Rome at one point or another as having valid orders. The "Duarte-Costa" line of apostolic succession from ICAB, because it split from the RCC more recently than the Old Catholics, is highly in demand from priests and laypeople who want to become bishops and start their own Independent Catholic Church.
Some Independent Catholic churches are conservative and some are liberal on Dead Horse issues. This one is liberal, which means that its relationship with ICAB (which is more conservative) has become strained.
I am very close to someone who was pretty involved with the Independent Catholic churches within CACINA's orbit (I think their group was part of CACINA at one time). The CACINA parishes on its current website might indeed include some that are big and vibrant congregations, but my experience of Independent Catholic Churches has mostly been of very small congregations where the clergy often outnumber the laypeople and, among the clergy, a disproportionate amount of them are bishops or want to become one.
LOTS of older gay men, including RC priests who left the RCC to be openly gay and have relationships. In the groups I was around it was not uncommon for clergy and laypeople to meet in gay bars and other establishments, sometimes pretty risqué ones. This would be less true in the more conservative Independent Catholic churches, although the number of closeted and semi-closeted gay men in those churches is not small (think of how much leeway a closeted bishop might give himself, regardless of what sexual morals he preaches publicly, if he is the boss of his own little church and does not have to answer to Rome or anyone else!).
I'm too removed from all that now to do an MW report, unfortunately.
BTW, the term 'Irvingite' is strictly incorrect. Edward Irving (who died in 1834) had some considerable influence (especially with regard to charismatic gifts) in the early days, but he was never one of the twelve Apostles, who were not all fully called and 'separated' until 1835.
The last, and definitive, edition of The Liturgy was published in 1880, but doubtless was reprinted subsequently, as required.
*not to be confused with the author Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
Seriously, most of the info I have in my head regarding the Catholic Apostolic Church comes from Father Columba Flegg's book......just Euros75 from a nice bookseller in Delft.....
Fr Flegg (writing some 20+ years ago now) does seem to hint that some of the Catholic Apostolics may be looking for a further 'restored' Apostolate, not of the 'Twelve', but of the 'Seventy', referred to rather obliquely in the Gospels.
Whether there's any sign of that happening, I couldn't say, but it's an intriguing (if somewhat obscure) thought.
Meanwhile, and again SERIOUSLY, the Catholic Apostolic Church remains in the 'period of silence'......
Yes to the Liturgy Book and there were hymns but I can't recall what now
More seriously, thanks to all who have thrown some light on this all but forgotten tradition.
Seriously, though, my warning above about the 'Period Of Silence' is apposite, inasmuch as I was entreated by the Trustees, as long ago as 1986, NOT to publish photographs, or to make public ANY information, regarding my then (purely private) enquiries into the Catholic Apostolic Church.
It may be that I disobeyed those entreaties by starting, or contributing to, the thread on the Old Ship, but my personal research was, as it were, overtaken by the publication of Fr Flegg's book 'Gathered Under Apostles'.
Just saying.
The Catholic Apostolic Church still exists, at least in the form of Trustees, some buildings, and (I presume) some remaining believers, so discretion is called for, IMHO.
Ahead of their time, certainly - but not afraid to admit that they were imperfect.
I may be wrong but I think that the Byzantine rite has near the beginning long prayers for all sorts of people and needs of which the Kyrie eleison in the Roman rite is all that remains in an abbreviated form.
After Vatican 2 these general prayers which were until then one of the special features of the Good Friday liturgy were re-introduced in a much less formal way as the Universal Prayer, commonly called in English the bidding prayers, where mainly lay people after the Creed will lead the assembled faithful in prayers (sometimes composed by themselves) for the general needs of the parish and indeed all mankind.
What was the role of women in the Catholic Apostolic Church?
Somebody else will need to answer the role of women question. I've no idea.
As for the role of women, their teaching was distinctly conservative. Let the reader understand! Dead Horse territory......
This continued into comparatively recent times, when members transferring to (say) their local Anglican church, following closure of the Catholic Apostolic building, would refuse to take part in a service where a woman - whether licensed or not - was officiating, leading prayers, or preaching. They might stay away from the service, if warned beforehand, or else leave the church during the service.
The deaths of 3 Apostles in 1855, with others in the following years, resulted in the crisis @Forthview describes.
The Schism in Germany resulted in the eventual excommunication of its members from the parent body in 1863, leading to the establishment of the still-extant New Apostolic Church (there's one - a converted house, I think - not far from where I live). Not much in the way of elaborate liturgy these days, AIUI.
Between 1877 (the death of Cardale) and 1901, there was only one Apostle left (Woodhouse).