"Oh go away we can't be bothered - we're busy with Holy Week"

2

Comments

  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Sorry, but that remark is somewhat disparaging of all the faithful ministers of the church(es) who DO rise to the occasion!
    :angry:

    Please retract it.
    I'll be the fourth to say that I concur. Please retract it.

  • Sometimes people are simply in the wrong job, even when it's something considered a Vocation.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    It's best handled commercially without any expectation beyond the magic that crossing palms with silver should achieve. Peaceoftheaction666's narrative is full of expectation. My sister just had the incredibly stressful 'nightmare' of arranging the interment of my mother's ashes with my father's. Unbelievable. Never have an expectation, then you can't be disappointed.
  • What a sad and depressing post.

    Believe it or not, Martin, not ALL ministers are concerned solely with pieces of silver.
    :angry:

    Again, please retract your former comment.
  • SpikeSpike Admin Emeritus
    I’m seeing a lot of outrage on this thread, but we only have one side of the story. There may well be a lot more to this than we have been told.
  • O indeed, but whatever may be the other side of the story, Martin still seems to want to tar all ministers with the same brush.

    This is what I find unfair, and I would very much like Martin to acknowledge that. I'm sure he knows better.

    (Sadness, on my part, rather than outrage, BTW....)
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    They're all paid to do rites of passage, it's best done through funeral directors. They're not tent makers.
  • Funeral directors are paid to do rites of passage.
  • And Church of Scotland ministers are not paid (specifically) to do funerals, in fact they may not take a fee for so doing.
  • Anglican churches can't, I believe, charge for baptisms. And I think that the clergy fees for weddings and funerals go into the parish pot (can someone say if that's right?)
  • Raptor Eye wrote: »
    Sorry, but that remark is somewhat disparaging of all the faithful ministers of the church(es) who DO rise to the occasion!
    :angry:

    Please retract it.

    I second that, Martin.

    None of us is perfect, and mostly people are doing their best. Sadly, the publicity always goes to the occasions when people get it wrong.

    And, quite honestly, my experience is the reverse-- funeral directors, while knowledgable about how to make all the inconveniently messy details of death vanish, are all about the bill. Perhaps it's an American thing, but I've found them less than helpful. The funeral directors are the ones that will book the space (in their chapel-- for a hefty fee-- even though you could get the church for free or at least less) and make all the arrangements before thinking to ask the officiant if s/he is available-- leading to exactly the sort of conflict behind the OP. Not excusing the horrible horribleness of the priest's response, and yes, the funeral director will be much more polite, solicitous and sympathetic (that's their job). But you're going to pay for it.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    #notallministers Fuck you.

    It seems perfectly understandable how a person with a small set of negative reactions can end up genuinely feeling strongly negative about an entire demographic. Their feelings need not be read as absolute truth, nor is it productive to try to force them to have the correct thoughts. Especially in someone like @Martin54 who is a failure of an emotional thinker.

    I suggest being reassuring about how it is not necessarily so, while also being open to how the criticism is true. Then maybe it can be possible to make things better.

    For the slow of cogitation, let me point out that I'm not just talking about ministers here. #metoo anyone? But if you want to have a throwdown specifically about clergy, I will indeed fucking bring the heat to point out the betrayed power differentials, systemic denials, and overall horrifying manipulation of human needs for faith with no effective oversight. Do better than denials and asinine outrage, shitheads.
  • Anglican churches can't, I believe, charge for baptisms. And I think that the clergy fees for weddings and funerals go into the parish pot (can someone say if that's right?)

    Only a small part of the fee goes to the parish, the remainder goes to the central C of E pot.

    Retired or self supporting clergy are sometimes given a fee, lay people rarely.

    It's truly an act of love. Sadly, some come across as less than loving.


  • Raptor Eye wrote: »
    Anglican churches can't, I believe, charge for baptisms. And I think that the clergy fees for weddings and funerals go into the parish pot (can someone say if that's right?)

    Only a small part of the fee goes to the parish, the remainder goes to the central C of E pot.

    Retired or self supporting clergy are sometimes given a fee, lay people rarely.

    It's truly an act of love. Sadly, some come across as less than loving.


    Yes.

    And it is, of course, true that funeral directors are running a business, as well as providing a useful, and IME mostly professional, service.

    Thanks, RooK, for your words of encouragement. As (possibly) an asinine, albeit not exactly outraged, shithead (but not a tent-maker either - I don't get paid to take funerals, nor would I expect to), I take them in the spirit in which they are intended.
    :confounded:

  • TonyKTonyK Shipmate, Host Emeritus Posts: 43
    Raptor Eye was partially correct.
    Basic Church of England fee for a funeral service in church or at a crematorium is GBP195.

    This fee is split - for a funeral in church, GBP106 goes to the Diocesan Board of Finance; the rest to the Parochial Church Council (in effect, into church funds, to pay for heating, lighting etc for the service).
    For a service in a crematorium GBP165 goes to the diocese with the remainder going to the PCC.

    There are other charges for burials, etc and these are handled in a similar manner. The incumbent's stipend is paid from the DBF's fund and he/she doesn't get extra payment for a funeral.

    In the Diocese of Gloucester fees are paid to others (retired clergy, non-stipendiary clergy and Licensed Lay Ministers (usually Readers) who take funerals). They get half the portion that would normally go to the DBF. This is quite recent - for many years I conducted funerals without receiving a fee and was very happy to do so for nothing more than my travel expenses. Now I get the fee (a useful addition to my pension, and the total from a number of funerals paid to replace my robes) but don't claim any expenses. Not all dioceses work in this way - I know of one nearby who pay the partial fee to retired and non-stipendiary clergy but not to Readers.

    With regard to the main thrust of this thread, I would be horrified if we said that to anybody.

  • Yes, it does seem to vary from one Diocese to another.

    Not that we asinine shitheads need to care.

  • Him indoors went to a friend’s funeral last month – it was conducted by a civil celebrant chosen by the funeral director.

    He was horrified, he said it was so impersonal and it was as if the celebrant had just imported the friends name into stock phrases. Civil celebrants are paid directly to take funerals. Payment into their own banks not to a church council or a diocese but it’s all for them. £200 is the going rate I was told.

    I’m sure there are good civil celebrants around, as there are good and bad in every profession, so don’t make crass generalisations about clergy.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    Martin54 wrote: »
    They're all paid to do rites of passage, it's best done through funeral directors. They're not tent makers.
    @Martin54 If a person's approach to the clergy is that he or she is just there to provide rites of passage on demand for a fee, yet alone without one, I'm not inclined to feel sorry for them if they get a bit of a dusty brush off.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Posts retracted. Sorry.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Thank you, Martin. (I'm not ordained, but I have been greatly helped by a lot of people who are, and I am grateful to them.)
  • Thank you Martin. I'm sorry to hear of your sister's nightmare experience.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    They're all paid to do rites of passage, it's best done through funeral directors. They're not tent makers.

    I'm not. I have neither taken money, nor charged on behalf of the church for any funeral or wedding I have conducted.

    I will do my utmost in these circumstances. I do though get somewhat frustrated at the money spinning antics of Funeral Directors (always members of large chains not the family run independents who are with on exception I've encountered, great).

  • Zacchaeus wrote: »
    Him indoors went to a friend’s funeral last month – it was conducted by a civil celebrant chosen by the funeral director.

    He was horrified, he said it was so impersonal and it was as if the celebrant had just imported the friends name into stock phrases. Civil celebrants are paid directly to take funerals. Payment into their own banks not to a church council or a diocese but it’s all for them. £200 is the going rate I was told.

    I’m sure there are good civil celebrants around, as there are good and bad in every profession, so don’t make crass generalisations about clergy.

    £200? That's cheap. Around here is £300.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Most funerals here are conducted by civil celebrants. Many of these combine this with being marriage celebrants, for which they need to undertake training and obtain a certificate. All that I've been to recently have been conducted well and with a proper show of sympathy and support.

    I'm still wondering about the OP, and how accurately that records what happened.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    Posts retracted. Sorry.

    Well done, Martin, and thanks.
    :wink:

  • Gee D wrote: »
    Most funerals here are conducted by civil celebrants. Many of these combine this with being marriage celebrants, for which they need to undertake training and obtain a certificate. All that I've been to recently have been conducted well and with a proper show of sympathy and support.

    I'm still wondering about the OP, and how accurately that records what happened.

    70% locally are civil celebrants. No training or certification necessary. Completely deregulated. Most of the ones I've heard at a funeral are awful.

    As regards costs - I reckon a funeral takes a minimum of a day's work (10 hours), The church fee when charged is surely not a lot but the civil is £300 for often poor quality and no pre and after care.
  • I gave been on the organising end of half a dozen funerals. While, to be honest, the clergy quality did vary, with 5 good, even excellent ones and one pretty dire, none of them toko the funeral without contacting us and asking what we wanted
    Gee D wrote: »
    Most funerals here are conducted by civil celebrants. Many of these combine this with being marriage celebrants, for which they need to undertake training and obtain a certificate. All that I've been to recently have been conducted well and with a proper show of sympathy and support.

    I'm still wondering about the OP, and how accurately that records what happened.

    I gave been on the organising end of half a dozen funerals. While, to be honest, the clergy quality did vary, with 5 good, even excellent ones and one pretty dire, probably because as churchgoers and experienced funeral consumers we expected more than we got. None of them took the funeral without contacting us and asking what we wanted. Though the bad one did do it over the phone, the others all visited us..
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    Using a funeral director as an intermediary can be a good strategy.

    Exactly. Don't expect anything of the church directly. Ever.

    Well, Martin is entitled to his own opinion. Maybe he has had bad experiences of all the clergy and church people he knows. Or enough to be so cynical about them all.

    I would say that one should always have reasonable expectations of the Church - and of the human beings who staff it both voluntarily and paid. But equally be prepared to find that it IS only human beings after all who staff it including, unfortunately, the ones who don't always get the job done in the best way.

    Still, my view is coloured at the moment with recent experience. I've just returned from a family funeral for a non-churchgoing relative, where the minister spent many hours, firstly with the dying relative, and the next of kin, and then organising the details of what turned out to be an excellent funeral. On the day he was first contacted about seeing my relative - my Uncle - before he died, he was there within an hour and a half. And on the day my Uncle died he only just missed it by moments. And most of this during Holy Week, of all weeks, with another funeral to do on the Tuesday, my relative's on the Thursday and another close attendance on a dying lady in the local hospice.

    Whatever was expected of this minister - as either clergyman or a guy under a hell of a lot of pressure already - was far exceeded by what he did for us.

    He may not be completely the 'norm'; but neither is he entirely an exception! Though he did perform exceptionally for us, and God bless him for it.

  • Amen! Well done, That Man.... :smiley:
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    Most funerals here are conducted by civil celebrants. Many of these combine this with being marriage celebrants, for which they need to undertake training and obtain a certificate. All that I've been to recently have been conducted well and with a proper show of sympathy and support.

    I'm still wondering about the OP, and how accurately that records what happened.

    70% locally are civil celebrants. No training or certification necessary. Completely deregulated. Most of the ones I've heard at a funeral are awful.

    As regards costs - I reckon a funeral takes a minimum of a day's work (10 hours), The church fee when charged is surely not a lot but the civil is £300 for often poor quality and no pre and after care.

    I don't have proper figures of here for funerals. We do know that just over 75% of marriages are by civil celebrants, and my impression from daily reading of death notices is that the proportion probably higher for funerals.
  • There seems to be an increasing number of 'civil' celebrants here in Ukland, from what I have been told.

    Some of them identify as Christians, but are not necessarily authorised/licensed/ordained by any particular church. If they're in it simply for the £200-£300 per funeral, then are they perhaps guilty of a form of simony?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simony
  • More and more funeral are being taken by civil celebrants of one sort or another.
    A lot of funeral directors tend to steer the families that way because the celebrants diaries are less full. It is the celebrants main job and they don’t have all the other things in their diaries that parish priests do.
    Some funeral directors are even celebrants themselves – after all they are there anyway and it gives them and extra £200-300 fee
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    @Bishops Finger I don't think so. Simony usually has to involve the corrupt selling of an ecclesiastical office, i.e. job rather than service. In its classic form, it's taking cash in return for the right to present, or to be presented to a living.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Or, like this person, who gave his name to it, it’s trying to buy spiritual power.
  • Zacchaeus wrote: »
    More and more funeral are being taken by civil celebrants of one sort or another.
    A lot of funeral directors tend to steer the families that way because the celebrants diaries are less full. It is the celebrants main job and they don’t have all the other things in their diaries that parish priests do.
    Some funeral directors are even celebrants themselves – after all they are there anyway and it gives them and extra £200-300 fee

    Sadly, family members being steered in the direction of a celebrant are not necessarily aware of the difference between a church minister and a celebrant, nor of the difference in fees.
  • One of the reasons given locally to me for people going for a civil celebrant is the massive rise in statutory fees. People can see why the parish should get a fee, and the parish priest: they don't see why anything should go into the central diocesan "pot".

    And around here we have a lot of civil celebrants who, IMHO, do quite a reasonable job (if you're unchurched) for c£100.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    In our diocese, what goes into the central diocesan “pot” along with what parishes pay in parish offer is what comes out to the parish clergy as stipends.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    One of the reasons given locally to me for people going for a civil celebrant is the massive rise in statutory fees. People can see why the parish should get a fee, and the parish priest: they don't see why anything should go into the central diocesan "pot".

    And around here we have a lot of civil celebrants who, IMHO, do quite a reasonable job (if you're unchurched) for c£100.

    The reason here is that there's been an enormous drop in religious belief and practice since 1950, with a lot of that in the last 30 years. Few people have a connection with any church and the exposure of child sexual abuse by clergy has accelerated that.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    In our diocese, what goes into the central diocesan “pot” along with what parishes pay in parish offer is what comes out to the parish clergy as stipends.

    Same here.
  • Zacchaeus wrote: »
    BroJames wrote: »
    In our diocese, what goes into the central diocesan “pot” along with what parishes pay in parish offer is what comes out to the parish clergy as stipends.

    Same here.


    And actually very few outsiders even know how the fees work or where they go to. It is always a surprise to people to learn that the church has to pay anything to the diocese
  • Zacchaeus wrote: »
    Zacchaeus wrote: »
    BroJames wrote: »
    In our diocese, what goes into the central diocesan “pot” along with what parishes pay in parish offer is what comes out to the parish clergy as stipends.

    Same here.


    And actually very few outsiders even know how the fees work or where they go to. It is always a surprise to people to learn that the church has to pay anything to the diocese

    Why doesn't the church collect all the fee and pay it direct to the celebrant with the diocese reducing the stipend from central funds accordingly. It cuts out the middle man and reduces admin. Get the celebrant to declare it on his tax return and the burden for admin rests with HMRC - after all, the current Minister's section on the Tax Return (which I have in front of me contains a box to record fees earned). It's the same for preaching fees - which I don't ever keep but pass on to my church. I'm paid anyway.

    People will be happier paying a reasonably high amount to something they can see - and local - more so than sending it to some admin bloated central body.
  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    Why doesn't the church collect all the fee and pay it direct to the celebrant with the diocese reducing the stipend from central funds accordingly. It cuts out the middle man and reduces admin. Get the celebrant to declare it on his tax return and the burden for admin rests with HMRC - after all, the current Minister's section on the Tax Return (which I have in front of me contains a box to record fees earned).
    That used to happen in some cases, because I used to keep the records of fees for one of the ministers as that was the way we administered funerals in some cases.

    I am not sure if it is still allowed as there were abuses by some clergy -I am aware of a hospital chaplain who took a lot of funerals and did not always declare the funeral fees in the same diocese.



  • Why doesn't the church collect all the fee and pay it direct to the celebrant with the diocese reducing the stipend from central funds accordingly. It cuts out the middle man and reduces admin. Get the celebrant to declare it on his tax return and the burden for admin rests with HMRC - after all, the current Minister's section on the Tax Return (which I have in front of me contains a box to record fees earned).

    That used to be the normal practice in England and still is in Wales. The problem is that it means clergy in parishes that get lots of church funerals (and weddings) get lots of money in addition to their stipend, and those who have the toughest parishes in challenging estates get none. I'm not sure that is fair.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    In our diocese, what goes into the central diocesan “pot” along with what parishes pay in parish offer is what comes out to the parish clergy as stipends.

    And in our diocese we have a large number of parishes with either no priest, entirely reliant on retired clergy, or house-for-duty: these parishes already pay the cost of half a stipend for something they don't get, why should the diocese make any further charge?
  • Zacchaeus wrote: »
    And actually very few outsiders even know how the fees work or where they go to. It is always a surprise to people to learn that the church has to pay anything to the diocese

    Actually, it is very clearly listed on the Statutory Fees Table which every CofE church is obliged to display prominently on a noticeboard protected from weather and easily accessible - in most cases that means the church porch.

  • At Our Place, it means the notice-board inside the Church itself, with another in the Sacristy, clergy for the use of.

    The 'official' format is in rather small print - not really suitable for an exterior board, however well-protected, but I take your point. Maybe we should put one in the porch proper, even though it's only open at service-times, or during 'Office Hour' on Mondays and Saturdays.

  • Why doesn't the church collect all the fee and pay it direct to the celebrant with the diocese reducing the stipend from central funds accordingly. It cuts out the middle man and reduces admin. Get the celebrant to declare it on his tax return and the burden for admin rests with HMRC - after all, the current Minister's section on the Tax Return (which I have in front of me contains a box to record fees earned).

    That used to be the normal practice in England and still is in Wales. The problem is that it means clergy in parishes that get lots of church funerals (and weddings) get lots of money in addition to their stipend, and those who have the toughest parishes in challenging estates get none. I'm not sure that is fair.

    No - they get the same if it works properly. The amount paid by the diocese will vary to ensure a standard stipend
  • Zacchaeus wrote: »
    And actually very few outsiders even know how the fees work or where they go to. It is always a surprise to people to learn that the church has to pay anything to the diocese

    Actually, it is very clearly listed on the Statutory Fees Table which every CofE church is obliged to display prominently on a noticeboard protected from weather and easily accessible - in most cases that means the church porch.

    But outsiders, like the people who want funerals, very rarely see church notices or understand them if they did..
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    It was an always an option until two or three years ago.

    There were one or two fairly high profile cases of people fraudulently under-declaring their fees income, and a lot more of people simply getting in a muddle and then into trouble with HMRC.

    IIRC the diocese would reduce your gross pay by the amount of the declared fee, so that you would then have to declare the fees separately on your Self Assessment for your tax to be adjusted, and put aside what would be needed to pay the additional tax each year.

    I always found it much simpler to assign all my fees to the diocese. And I arranged with our treasurer that he would send them to the diocese on a regular basis. It was much simpler. All the money went into the church bank account, and the treasurer sent the appropriate amount to the diocese each month. It also meant predictable regular income which made financial management much easier, rather than saying OK I’ve had four weddings this month, so next month’s pay will be down by (say) £400, and I mustn’t forget to put £80 of that £400 aside for tax to be paid in January next year. (Fluctuating monthly income would have been doubly awful during the years we were in receipt of Child Tax Credits.)
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    The 'official' format is in rather small print - not really suitable for an exterior board, however well-protected, but I take your point. Maybe we should put one in the porch proper, even though it's only open at service-times, or during 'Office Hour' on Mondays and Saturdays.

    Yes, it is small print, so at our place it has been blown up (A4 to A3 so 41%), matt laminated and so easily read by most in all weathers.
    Zacchaeus wrote: »
    But outsiders, like the people who want funerals, very rarely see church notices or understand them if they did..

    Not seeing them isn't something too difficult, they are easily found on the web. As far as understanding them goes, you can see the notice here to see just how complex, or not, it is.

This discussion has been closed.