MPaul: the reason Christianity is dying on the vine

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  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I suspect a bit of awareness that it might irritate people, as when he posted it in Heaven, he expressed the hope that it might entertain more than annoy!
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Colin try reading Adrian Plass if you want humour and understanding of Christians. One of the problems is there are so many Christian characters who have a crisis of faith or come to see themselves as not really deep Christians that it has become somewhat of a cliche as if I am honest is getting a bit boring. I am not saying you are not a good writer, just that your idea maybe a little over done.

    A friend recommended Plass so I read The Sacred Diary of Adrian Plass: Adrian Plass and the Church Weekend. I did find it a bit too saccharine for my taste.

    I agree the trope you mention is overdone but it's not he idea I'm working with. He is the illegitimate son of a god so his story is him discovering the truth about his origin and true purpose in life.
  • Good recommendation, Hugal. Plass nails it when it comes to humorous writing about contemporary Christianity in a way that is genuinely amusing, insightful and respectful all at the same time.

    @Colin Smith, I can't speak for anyone else but I'm not at all surprised at the amount of research you've done. The issue isn't the quantity of research but what you do with it and the quality of the writing.

    From the examples I've seen you've not applied your research very well. As for your writing, it's truly dreadful.

    Find another hobby. Try trainspotting.

    Oh fuck off. Condemning someone's entire writing on the basis of a first draft excerpt is absurd. On the recommendation of a friend I read one of Plass's Sacred Diary novels for research and thought it was horribly saccharine and full of unbelievable characters. If that's the kind of writing you like then no wonder you don't like what I've written, which I state again is a first draft.

    Given I have won prizes and been paid for my writing I can happily ignore your "advice".
  • ... On the recommendation of a friend I read one of Plass's Sacred Diary novels for research and thought it was horribly saccharine and full of unbelievable characters...
    Unbelievable to you, perhaps, because you haven't met them. We, on the other hand may meet them every week.

    And, is it saccharine because faith is written as though it's real?

  • Given I have won prizes and been paid for my writing I can happily ignore your "advice".

    There's a thread on "Humility" in Purgatory. You might find it worth reading.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Colin do you not have get permission from us or the Ship to use it or us for research? I am serious about this,. You just stated you are here to research. You never actually asked if we or the Ship is happy with that. As said by several people the Ship is not a library. It is a group of real people.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I confess that, though I enjoy reading Adrian Plass, and much he writes is a humorously accurate depiction of church issues and people (though I think you might have to be familiar with church culture to 'get' it), I do find him a little bit saccharine at times too.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I wonder if you might enjoy Marilynne Robinson's Home, Colin. Not about a habitual Christian, but about a guy who grew up in a devoutly Christian home and realised he simply didn't believe, couldn't pretend to believe, and is seen as the black sheep of the family, despite loving his family and really not wanting to disappoint them. The battle between wanting to be real and wanting to not disappoint one's loved ones. I imagine reading around the specific idea you are focusing on might give you a wider idea of faith and faith communities.
  • ... On the recommendation of a friend I read one of Plass's Sacred Diary novels for research and thought it was horribly saccharine and full of unbelievable characters...
    Unbelievable to you, perhaps, because you haven't met them. We, on the other hand may meet them every week.

    And, is it saccharine because faith is written as though it's real?

    No. It's saccharine because the story is so sweet. All the characters apart from Plass's fictionalised family felt like caricatures. I prefer fiction that is nastier and murkier.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Colin do you not have get permission from us or the Ship to use it or us for research? I am serious about this,. You just stated you are here to research. You never actually asked if we or the Ship is happy with that. As said by several people the Ship is not a library. It is a group of real people.

    No. Apart from the private forums everything on the ship is visible to non-members. The only requirement regarding copyright material online and elsewhere, is avoiding plagiarism.
  • ... On the recommendation of a friend I read one of Plass's Sacred Diary novels for research and thought it was horribly saccharine and full of unbelievable characters...
    Unbelievable to you, perhaps, because you haven't met them. We, on the other hand may meet them every week.

    And, is it saccharine because faith is written as though it's real?

    No. It's saccharine because the story is so sweet. All the characters apart from Plass's fictionalised family felt like caricatures. I prefer fiction that is nastier and murkier.

    A good deal of scripture is nastier and murkier; I'm sure even you would see that some of it is not fiction either. Is that a bar?
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Colin do you not have get permission from us or the Ship to use it or us for research? I am serious about this,. You just stated you are here to research. You never actually asked if we or the Ship is happy with that.
    Yes, he did ask. Here. (See here as well.)

  • sionisais wrote: »
    ... On the recommendation of a friend I read one of Plass's Sacred Diary novels for research and thought it was horribly saccharine and full of unbelievable characters...
    Unbelievable to you, perhaps, because you haven't met them. We, on the other hand may meet them every week.

    And, is it saccharine because faith is written as though it's real?

    No. It's saccharine because the story is so sweet. All the characters apart from Plass's fictionalised family felt like caricatures. I prefer fiction that is nastier and murkier.

    A good deal of scripture is nastier and murkier; I'm sure even you would see that some of it is not fiction either. Is that a bar?

    I have read some of Genesis and all of Revelation. Not my thing. And those parts were fiction.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Colin do you not have get permission from us or the Ship to use it or us for research? I am serious about this,. You just stated you are here to research. You never actually asked if we or the Ship is happy with that.
    Yes, he did ask. Here. (See here as well.)

    Cool I was just not aware and i don’t want anyone to get in trouble.,
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    ... On the recommendation of a friend I read one of Plass's Sacred Diary novels for research and thought it was horribly saccharine and full of unbelievable characters...
    Unbelievable to you, perhaps, because you haven't met them. We, on the other hand may meet them every week.

    And, is it saccharine because faith is written as though it's real?

    No. It's saccharine because the story is so sweet. All the characters apart from Plass's fictionalised family felt like caricatures. I prefer fiction that is nastier and murkier.

    He is however spot on on practically every page about Christians. He knows his subject well. As research which is what I was suggesting you can’t do any better.
    Also try to understand the reception history and the context of The Sacred Diary and how radicle it actually is. Don’t just dismiss it. One Christian book shop has to keep it under the counter. I am not kidding. It showed the church as it was, real character that were instantly recognisable. In a time that concentrated on defeating powers and principalities, that made you feel you had to be a super Christian. This allowed people to be normal and know that God loves them faults and all. You cannot under estimate the importance of that.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    He is however spot on on practically every page about Christians. He knows his subject well. As research which is what I was suggesting you can’t do any better.
    Also try to understand the reception history and the context of The Sacred Diary and how radicle it actually is. Don’t just dismiss it. One Christian book shop has to keep it under the counter. I am not kidding. It showed the church as it was, real character that were instantly recognisable. In a time that concentrated on defeating powers and principalities, that made you feel you had to be a super Christian. This allowed people to be normal and know that God loves them faults and all. You cannot under estimate the importance of that.

    Thank you. It might be that the one I read is quite late in the series so I shall try to get hold of the first Sacred Diary he wrote which I think is nearly 30 years old now.

    I have actually known quite a number of Christians and even attended church events so am not working completely blind. What I haven't done before is write from the perspective of a Christian but in the course of talking here I've realised the character is not at heart a Christian, albeit he believes he is doing everything right.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    And now this thread is a motherfucking writer's workshop for @Colin Smith . Fuck you, @Gamma Gamaliel for pitching this thread back into another of his intellectual event horizons. This guy is basically beetlejuice; stop summoning him.
  • To summarise:

    No, there's nothing you or we can do to stop Colin using us for research. This isn't a private board, and is open to anyone from anywhere to read.

    No, you don't have to answer his questions or give him reading lists, either in the hope that you'll convert him, or that he'll learn how to write convincing Christian characters. He's shown no indication that he'll ever do either.

    Yes, Rook is absolutely right that turning this into a homework thread is by far the best way to persuade an already disgruntled host to close the damn thing.
  • I'll take a 'fuck off' from Rook, Colin but I won't fucking well take a fucking fuck off from you, you fucking arrogant twat.

    Yes, Adrian Plass is saccharine and I don't particularly want to read his stuff but he bloody well nails some aspects of contemporary Christianity far better than you ever will you supperating pile of shit.

    Your first draft crap is pants. It's the worst thing I've read since the last worst thing I've read.

    I've won prizes too. So have other Shipmates. So fucking what. Piss off you fucking self-centred, self-absorbed talentless turd.
  • I have read some of Genesis and all of Revelation. Not my thing. And those parts were fiction.

    Jeebus what a poor selection.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    ...Given I have won prizes and been paid for my writing I can happily ignore your "advice".
    Oh, for heaven's sake. You keep harping on this as if it means something. Prizes abound. I was first "paid for my writing" at the age of 17, as a high school student. It didn't make me a professional, although it did give me encouragement.

    You have been offered good advice from intelligent people who, in many cases, know much more about the business than do you. You would do well to stop posturing and pay attention to them. Since you boarded the Ship in the first place in order to exploit the folks here, you might consider swallowing your egotism and shutting your yap from time to time when people are trying to help.

    And please learn how to use apostophes.

    Now I shall take wise RooK's excellent advice and strive to ignore you. Ciao!





  • To be fair, prizes do confer a sense of external sanction and recognition. They can also provide a much needed boost to income, particularly if times are tough.

    Colin Smith is displaying confidence and self-belief. You need that even if you are writing for your own consumption or fulfilment. I've been unemployed at times and my current freelance work is very hand to mouth, so I know from my own experience the importance of some kind of affirmation in such circumstances - as well as more generally.

    That's not the issue.

    The issue, as has been said by other posters here, is the way Colin behaves when using these boards to research his own pet project. Ignoring advice. Deflecting constructive criticism as well as less welcome forms. And so on.

    My rant should have been directed at that and not the samples of his drafts.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Yes, he's being a bit of a pain in the arse. I shouldn't have really continued with book recommendations - I knew it when I was posting, and that he wasn't going to be interested in reading recommended books anyway - but I like talking about books and get carried away! Which is my own selfishness, I guess, and some people sometimes like being spiteful, as you said, Gamma, and that is their selfishness. We all post a bit out of selfishness, not pure community-minded motives. I think a difficulty is that Colin has expressed great indignation at other people's lack of etiquette, as he sees it, and is unaware of how he himself is behaving in a way that is coming across as rude. Lack of awareness often tends to annoy people more than deliberate rudeness.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    He obviously doesn’t actually want to research properly. Several of us against our instincts have contributed and helped him but he does seem to have not take it on. We have moved a long way from MPaul haven’t we.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    I have read some of Genesis and all of Revelation. Not my thing. And those parts were fiction.

    Jeebus what a poor selection.

    Too true. Read some histories, some of the prophets, the Psalms, Proverbs and the entire New Testament starting with the Gospels. Trust me, Mark's Gospel can be read and understood in under an hour. Most of the Epistles are more complex but a little shorter. It won't take long and the veracity of the NT is pretty solid.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    I have read some of Genesis and all of Revelation. Not my thing. And those parts were fiction.

    Jeebus what a poor selection.

    "I'm really interested in learning about Christians, but it never occurred to me to read the parts of the Bible which tell what Christ did and said."
  • Dave W wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    I have read some of Genesis and all of Revelation. Not my thing. And those parts were fiction.

    Jeebus what a poor selection.

    "I'm really interested in learning about Christians, but it never occurred to me to read the parts of the Bible which tell what Christ did and said."

    Sigh. I read Revelation about 25 years ago as I wanted to write about End Of The World myths. I also read an account of Ragnarok, the Norse end of the world myth. Ragnarok was a lot more entertaining.
    Years before that I started reading Genesis because if you're going to read something you usually start at the beginning. It was unbelievably boring so I stopped.

    I am no longer interested in learning about Christians on this discussion board, not least because I have seen little evidence of them.

    Rook would like you all to start talking about something other than me.

  • I have read some of Genesis and all of Revelation. Not my thing. And those parts were fiction.

    Well, with respect to those who base their beliefs and hopes on Genesis and Revelation, that is a little bit like reading the weird appendices of an already over-complicated library of ancient materials, and hoping to get some idea of what the story is about. Or a bit like reading the introduction to a dictionary in the hopes it'll teach you how to spell and define words.

    (Every time I read Walter Scott, I avoid his introductions and appendices till I've read the story.)

    Maybe your character can try relating to the person of Jesus as revealed in a gospel? For a lot of Christians who struggle with religiousness, churchyness and 'God-iness' etc, they still cling to the faith, because of the person of Jesus of Nazareth, finding something compelling about his work, life, influence etc. I would say that many Christians regard Jesus as a frustrating portrayal of someone who would've been worth following - but did Jesus really believe he was who he said he was? Was he mistaken, all knowing or partially right? Could he have had the powerful life he lived if he wasn't 'Son of God' - whatever that means? What's the attraction over 2000 years on etc? That kind of thing.
  • Anselmina wrote: »

    Well, with respect to those who base their beliefs and hopes on Genesis and Revelation, that is a little bit like reading the weird appendices of an already over-complicated library of ancient materials, and hoping to get some idea of what the story is about. Or a bit like reading the introduction to a dictionary in the hopes it'll teach you how to spell and define words.

    (Every time I read Walter Scott, I avoid his introductions and appendices till I've read the story.)

    Maybe your character can try relating to the person of Jesus as revealed in a gospel? For a lot of Christians who struggle with religiousness, churchyness and 'God-iness' etc, they still cling to the faith, because of the person of Jesus of Nazareth, finding something compelling about his work, life, influence etc. I would say that many Christians regard Jesus as a frustrating portrayal of someone who would've been worth following - but did Jesus really believe he was who he said he was? Was he mistaken, all knowing or partially right? Could he have had the powerful life he lived if he wasn't 'Son of God' - whatever that means? What's the attraction over 2000 years on etc? That kind of thing.

    You're being very kind, but please read the post immediately above yours. I no longer wish to be part of this tread.
  • It might be a good idea to attend churches and meet Christians in real life. You might actually find some.

    This isn't the best place to look.
  • Oi! You speak for yourself....!
    ...... :wink:

    Actually, it's Good Advice, but I think Mr Smith has given up on us.
    :anguished:

    (GG, that might serve as the subject of a Purgatory thread, perhaps......as in, to what sort of church would you direct Genuine Enquirers™?)
  • It would depend on what they are enquiring about ...
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    Ah yes - ISWYM.

    I was thinking of those who might really, really be interested in learning about the Christian faith. There must be a few around.........

  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    edited April 2019
    Holy shit - did we just get a ITTWACWS from an atheist?

    NICE!

  • ...

    I am no longer interested in learning about Christians on this discussion board, not least because I have seen little evidence of them.
    ,,,.

    In view of your spectacularly idiotic responses to my posts, I doubt you can see anything anywhere except your preconceptions.

  • RooK wrote: »
    Holy shit - did we just get a ITTWACWS from an atheist?

    NICE!

    I rather think we did. Is this a first?

  • Forgive my ignorance, but what does ITTWACWS stand for?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    I Thought This Was A Christian Web Site
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Our work here is done.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    RooK wrote: »
    Holy shit - did we just get a ITTWACWS from an atheist?

    NICE!

    Score!

    (But would he actually recognize a Christian even if he ran into her full tilt?)

  • You're being very kind, but please read the post immediately above yours. I no longer wish to be part of this tread.

    One easy-peasy way to accomplish that.
  • RooK wrote: »
    Holy shit - did we just get a ITTWACWS from an atheist?

    NICE!

    Goaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal!
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    I am a Christian Colin. There are lots in here. The problem is there is no such thing as a typical Christian. There are always going to be difference because people care. RCs and more traditional groups have infant baptism. Baptists believe you cannot be baptised till you can fully understand what you are doing. Your quest was doomed from the start.
    It will be good to have your contribution more generally.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    I do owe @Colin Smith an apology for dissing prizes. They are always a good thing. And perhaps, as a professional, I underestimated the importance of being paid for one's writing. (I only do freebies for my church, and for the families of fellow members of my cancer group; why should they have to pay undertakers for badly-written, cliché-filled death notices?)

    I hope he will stick around, but amend his attitude.

  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    I do owe @Colin Smith an apology for dissing prizes. They are always a good thing. And perhaps, as a professional, I underestimated the importance of being paid for one's writing. (I only do freebies for my church, and for the families of fellow members of my cancer group; why should they have to pay undertakers for badly-written, cliché-filled death notices?)

    I hope he will stick around, but amend his attitude.

    Apology accepted. I shall try to be a better shipmate.
  • FWIW I think you are doing reasonably well on issues other than this particular one. I for one appreciated your comments about Sheol on the thread about Hell.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Yes you are doing OK. The ship can be a bit difficult for s new person to get their head around. It tajes a while.
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