Choral Music and the Gospel

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Comments

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I don't think it's actually specified in Times and Seasons but isn't it almost prescribed that Jesus Christ is risen today to Lyra Davidica shall come at the beginning and Thine be the glory to Maccabaeus shall come right at the end of the Principal Service on Easter Sunday? In which case, while people are receiving is Wrong with a capital W, and possibly even in capitals.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    Pomona, maybe I was being a bit judgemental. Of course singers need to keep hydrated, but there are ways of doing it discretely. Actually in my secular choir we are not allowed bottles of water on stage in a concert, so personally I do prefer not to see this chap so prominently and obviously drinking from his blue plastic beaker during readings and prayers, standing bang in the middle. It looks so unprofessional. That is just my take on a whole scenario I am not comfortable with, where the musicians are so dominant , taking centre stage. This band began in the south transept and have gradually crept into the centre. Just one more step closer to the musicians as star performers.
  • Some of us find that singing with full voice can leave us liable to coughing. In that instance having access to a sip of water removes the likelihood of a much louder disruption.
  • And preachers (at least in most Nonconformist churches I know) nearly always have a discreet glass of water to hand in the pulpit - although, in places which are not well-organised, the meniscus may have a layer of dust on top ...

    What I object to, with any kind of music group whether modern or traditional, is messiness: yes, bottles of water lying around; but also stray music stands, music books, instrument cases, backpacks, jackets and the like. Put all your gubbins into the front side pew (or somewhere!)
  • I never cease to be amazed that when I go to, say, a performance of Messiah the soloists of that can cope without recourse to swigging from either bottles or cups every whipstitch.
  • I never cease to be amazed that when I go to, say, a performance of Messiah the soloists of that can cope without recourse to swigging from either bottles or cups every whipstitch.

    It's entirely possible that they're more talented or better trained than I am.
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    I've sung most of my life with amateur choral societies. None of them permitted us to bring water-bottles (indeed usually not even handbags!) onto the stage for performances. Similarly, sucky sweets were banned! I don't think it had anything to do with being trained or talented. Just how it was. Unless you were performing, and the legitimate focus of attention, you were effectively wallpaper.

    Can you imagine a chorus of 120-170 odd, with even a small proportion bringing their various water beakers and bottles with them; trooping on stage with water in one hand, score in the other, variously and randomly swigging through the performance? I suppose the audience could run a book on how many times the alto with the purple hair requires refreshment; or which section of the choir is the thirstiest :wink:

    To be fair, I currently sing with another smaller choir where the arrangements are a little less formal and a singer struggling with a cold or throat problem is certainly allowed to discretely keep their water bottle close to hand. I'm sure church choirs could and should be equally permissive. Singers who know that the music is about God's worship and not themselves will be appropriately sensible and discrete, no doubt!

  • Possibly it is a numbers thing. If necessary one of 120 can stop singing, swallow a few times and clear their throat without unduly disturbing the music. When one of 3 stops mid flow it can have a deleterious effect on the singing continuing. Trying to avoid that disruption can lead to a need for a sip of water once the hymn has finished.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    The guy I first mentioned treated his blue plastic beaker of water like a cup of coffee, holding it visibly in his hand, sipping frequently between songs. Totally unprofessional in my opinion, yet then this band is not about being professional, it’s merely accompanying/ leading the singing as best they know how.
    They are appealing for more musicians including singers to join them, but there is no way I could bear to sing with such a band. If that is being elitist, so be it.
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    Possibly it is a numbers thing. If necessary one of 120 can stop singing, swallow a few times and clear their throat without unduly disturbing the music. When one of 3 stops mid flow it can have a deleterious effect on the singing continuing. Trying to avoid that disruption can lead to a need for a sip of water once the hymn has finished.

    Well, I think the point about the numbers I was making is that 120 people with their water bottles would create an interesting visual effect for the audience; bearing in mind I was referring to concert choral performances. And as an audience member it would be impossible not to notice even a small sprinkling of performers on a staged platform refreshing themselves, whether during singing or in between choruses!

    However, with regard to choirs in churches, hopefully there is water available anyway for coughers during the service. We keep a caraffe and a couple of glasses at the back of church for anyone in need; and there are occasionally a few members of the congregation who will set themselves up with a glass ahead of the service if they're having problems (eg, one whose medication gives them a dry throat).

    I must admit, as the choir sit behind me, and sit in pews behind a choir screen, I have no idea what they've stashed away there (apart from their reading materials for during the sermon!). As they are, if you like, physically integral to the whole 'machinery' of the worship, rather than centrally placed and therefore un-ignorable, they could be swigging pints of Guinness back there for all I, or anyone else would know!
  • Anselmina wrote: »
    Well, I think the point about the numbers I was making is that 120 people with their water bottles would create an interesting visual effect for the audience; bearing in mind I was referring to concert choral performances.
    Perhaps they could perfect synchronised (or even contrapuntual) swigging?

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Perhaps that's what the mysterious word 'Selah' meant.
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    Perhaps that's what the mysterious word 'Selah' meant.

    Haha! Hebrew for 'schlurp!'
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    Surely good upstanding singers are fasting before Communion and have no need of beakers, Guinness or boiled sweets....
    :naughty:
  • Climacus wrote: »
    Surely good upstanding singers are fasting before Communion and have no need of beakers, Guinness or boiled sweets....
    :naughty:

    Perhaps those who didn't grow up in churches that broke for coffee between the Ministry of the Word and the Ministry of the Sacrament.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    *paging Arethosemyfeet to the liturgical questions thread*

    (just give me a minute to write my question!)
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    Not directly related, but I thought readers of this thread may be interested in this article on the return of plainchant to a Catholic church:
    They’ve taught the congregation to sing six plainsong settings of the Mass – plainchant being, as Wigglesworth says, ‘one of the most flexible ways of music-making, offering great expressive freedom.’

    The composer interviewed certainly does not hold back:
    'Every since Vatican II, the church has been saddled with pitiful music that sounds like sub-standard off-Broadway lounge music.'
  • I've not had that much experience of RC worship but most of what I've encountered seems pretty bland, only with a bit of a frisson here and there at the Mass or Benediction.

    The issue, of course, is the one Exclamation Mark raises. What service are we involved with outside the service?

    The issue then becomes how what goes on in the worship prepares us for the latter. It strikes me that any form of worship - whether Quaker mindfulness - and no, that doesn't come as cheaply as might appear at first sight - or robed choirs or hymn / prayer sandwiches or chorus medleys can all contribute to that - or, equally, they can all become escapist or self-centred.

    However we 'do' church, it strikes me that there are people I come across from all settings who are serving their communities in a way that is motivated by their faith.

    For that, the Lord be praised.

    Benedicamus Domino.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Puzzler wrote: »
    The guy I first mentioned treated his blue plastic beaker of water like a cup of coffee, holding it visibly in his hand, sipping frequently between songs. Totally unprofessional in my opinion, yet then this band is not about being professional, it’s merely accompanying/ leading the singing as best they know how.
    They are appealing for more musicians including singers to join them, but there is no way I could bear to sing with such a band. If that is being elitist, so be it.

    But why is that unprofessional? If I go to a gig and the singer has a bottle of water with them, I wouldn't think they were unprofessional, they're just staying hydrated. If there are stage lights, it can get really hot. I don't understand why visibly staying hydrated is so wrong.

    You keep saying it's unprofessional without saying why it's unprofessional.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Pomona wrote: »
    But why is that unprofessional? If I go to a gig and the singer has a bottle of water with them, I wouldn't think they were unprofessional, they're just staying hydrated. If there are stage lights, it can get really hot. I don't understand why visibly staying hydrated is so wrong.

    You keep saying it's unprofessional without saying why it's unprofessional.
    A lot of it's in how it's done. A bottle of water, kept out of sight (or mostly so) and sipped from a quiet moments is usually fine. Holding onto and swigging from a cup like that can be distracting.


  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Puzzler wrote: »
    Pomona, maybe I was being a bit judgemental. Of course singers need to keep hydrated, but there are ways of doing it discretely. Actually in my secular choir we are not allowed bottles of water on stage in a concert, so personally I do prefer not to see this chap so prominently and obviously drinking from his blue plastic beaker during readings and prayers, standing bang in the middle. It looks so unprofessional. That is just my take on a whole scenario I am not comfortable with, where the musicians are so dominant , taking centre stage. This band began in the south transept and have gradually crept into the centre. Just one more step closer to the musicians as star performers.

    From here, it seems like you want music to be dominant in a service, just not this particular type of music. It's probably just because you are so used to it, but an organ and robed choir dominates a service (particularly the organ which can be really painfully loud, especially for those with hearing sensitivities - I appreciate the skill of the organist but my misophonia finds the volume hard to cope with) just as much as a band, maybe just not visually.

    It isn't fair to hold someone to a standard you've created for them that they're not even aware of. I have no idea why visibly drinking water is unprofessional, but apparently it is. In that case, maybe bring it up with whoever is in charge of music? Surely letting an etiquette breach go on unknowingly is just as rude? What if a medical reason means he needs to drink that often? I think the blue plastic beaker is just a MacGuffin here - it's about your dissatisfaction with the musical situation at your church (which is fairly understandable), not someone having a drink of water.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    Yes, the water issue is peripheral, except it is not, its consumption by this particular guy is bang in the middle of the dais.
    I do not see musicians as central, nor as performers. Musicians in worship should not be performing as entertainers.
    Music is very important as a vehicle for worship, of whatever style, but you are right to say that this particular band’s performing style and location grates with me.

    On the other hand I have to admit singing Evensong myself today yet not feeling that i was worshipping. It gave me great pleasure to be invited to augment a church choir and I really enjoyed the works, and singing to the best of my ability, but I admit I was concentrating on fitting in with new voices in a new venue.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Sometimes when you're singing in a new situation, it takes a little time to be comfortable. With another service or two under your belt, you should be able to worship fully.

  • In fact I, a Minister, when conducting a service in an unfamiliar church can find it hard to worship as I have to remember the "practical details" of what I'm doing. This is especially true if I'm leading Communion. There is also the need to "tune in" to the "feel" of the congregation. With a choir there is not just the need to fit in with new voices but also to get used to a different acoustic.
  • Interesting you mention worshipping while conducting a service. Thinking about it I think I do worship when conducting the service, but my worship is of a different character. My worship is found in careful speech, in words I have chosen and upon which I focus my attention. When in a pew my attention may wander back and forth across the words from the front (particularly if there is no formal liturgy) both to the things of God and not of God. When leading my focus is more complete, but it would be fair to say that I am less open to being surprised by God having, I hope, already heard him in preparing the service. I do think that there is true worship to be found in intense concentration and attention to detail.
  • I remember hearing an Anglican cleric give an account of a visit to Russia. He asked the Orthodox bishop why the people stood for the entire service. The bishop replied that worship wasn't 'true worship' unless it cost us something.

    Ok, that could sound a bit hair-shirt-ish but it could also tie in with the concentration thing that's been mentioned.

    There's also a balance in all this. In one sense I'm quite pleased that the 'scruffy oik' in the worship band feels at home and relaxed enough to take swigs from his plastic beaker. On another level I'm sure I'd be annoyed and irritated by it, but then I find most worship bands annoying and irritating these days, beakers or no beakers.

    I think it was Mousethief who quoted the Orthodox saying on these boards, 'Keep your eyes on your own plate.'

    It's applied to fasting disciplines but could equally be applied to other forms of worship /spiritual disciplines. We need to watch our own walk and behaviour rather than judging everyone else.

    It is difficult though, if a particular style or practice that grates with us for whatever reason becomes the dominant one in our regular place of worship. That can, and does, drive people away.

    I don't know what the answer is.
  • Interesting you mention worshipping while conducting a service. .... I do think that there is true worship to be found in intense concentration and attention to detail.
    Thank you for a thoughtful and helpful post.

  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    That has been my experience when I've been doing intercessions or readings - that the attention to detail is part of worship.

    I have to say that I don't think I would notice a musician or someone at the front having a drink or sucking on a sweet - I would notice and be annoyed by lots of coughing. I would just assume they have a sore throat or dry mouth (and lots of medication causes a dry mouth) and think no more of it. As I said, it's not something I would find strange in musicians at a gig (or by a performer at a comedy gig, or at a public lecture) so not sure why it's unprofessional in church.

    A medication I was on for a long time caused nausea if I didn't have something to eat or a sweet drink, especially in the morning, so often would need to eat/drink in church. In many churches it's totally normal to have coffee before a service. I think it's wise to remember that we don't know everything about everyone - not saying everyone must find all church music enjoyable, but a bit of grace would go a long way as would keeping in mind the accessibility aspect of food and drink (and music!) in church. Me having a coffee in church may have looked rude to those who didn't know my situation, but being sick in church would have annoyed them much more!
  • rhubarbrhubarb Shipmate
    I find it essential to be able to have access to water when singing as I have Sjogren's Syndrome which causes constant dry mouth. I make sure I also have a supply of Fisherman's Friends.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    It seems to me that some of the comments on this thread illustrate a principle I've mentioned before on these boards, "they'll know we are Christians by our disapproval one for another".


    On 'worship' and I think I've mentioned this before, modern translations, particularly of the Old Testament, don't draw a distinction which the AV is meticulous to preserve. They translate two different groups of words as 'worship'.

    One of them means something like what's expressed in 'come let us worship and fall down and kneel before the Lord our Maker'. It's a response of the heart, the reaction we all need to feel to the holiness and glory of God. The AV translates that 'worship', as do all other translations.

    The other means what the priests do when they offer sacrifices at the altar. The AV meticulously translates that as 'serve' or 'service' depending on part of speech. The word, indeed, means 'serve' or 'work' and can be used secularly. But it's clear from the context that what is being spoken of is specifically religious service. All the modern translations seem to translate that group of words as 'worship' as well. The difference, though, is that this is something religious functionaries are doing to enable other people to worship in the first sense.

    There's another interesting difference. 'Worship' exists as both a verb and a noun in English, without showing which by changing its form. The word used as 'worship' in the first sense, whether in Hebrew or Greek, only seems to appear as a verb. It's something we are called to do, not to conduct or talk about. The word used in the 'serve'/'service' sense exists quite cheerfully in all three languages, Hebrew, Greek and English, as both a verb and a noun - in English distinguished grammatically as I've just shown.

    It strikes me that clergy and musicians are doing their bit in the second sense to enable everyone else to worship in the first sense.
  • Climacus wrote: »
    Surely good upstanding singers are fasting before Communion and have no need of beakers, Guinness or boiled sweets....
    :naughty:

    Shipmates are surely aware of those moral theologians and canonists who allow for such things, provided that they are not taken for the purpose of avoiding the rigours of fasting and/or abstinence. As well, those of advanced years (RC canonists seem to think that 65 is a good rule) are exempt from fasting, as are children, nursing mothers, and those with medical conditions for whom abstinence might be dangerous. This might cover a good proportion of many choirs.
  • I do NOT feel advanced in years!

    (Well, sometimes - in the mornings. I've always had a tendency to sleepiness in the afternoon).
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Climacus wrote: »
    Surely good upstanding singers are fasting before Communion and have no need of beakers, Guinness or boiled sweets....
    :naughty:

    Shipmates are surely aware of those moral theologians and canonists who allow for such things, provided that they are not taken for the purpose of avoiding the rigours of fasting and/or abstinence. As well, those of advanced years (RC canonists seem to think that 65 is a good rule) are exempt from fasting, as are children, nursing mothers, and those with medical conditions for whom abstinence might be dangerous....

    They need to add in "people who don't see the point."
  • Which probably includes most communicants these days.

    I can see the point but only because I'm that way inclined these days. Mind you, Rome has reduced the fasting period before communion to an hour, from what I've been told.

    Now that does sound pointless. That's not a fast.

    There has to be a balance, though. Older Catholics tell me that people regularly used to faint during Mass because their blood-sugar levels were low.
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