yeah, that's what I think would happen in US politics too. But much more likely is the Republican party returning to normality rather than going. That of course requires the Republican electorate to return to normal, which requires Fox moderating its politics over time, which requires a change of ownership/management, which probably requires Uncle Rupert to pass peacefully and quietly in his bed.
Barnabas62Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
Fox News is I'm sure overjoyed with its loyal niche market. The fact that their audience laps up the poisonous output of their disgusting talking heads is more important than decent news values, so far as Murdoch and Fox World are concerned.
Simon Toad, that leopard isn't going to change its spots.
Yeah, remember when Colin Powell was put on trial for using private email as Secretary of State? Or when Condoleezza Rice got prison time for it? Yeah, me neither. I'd agree that "the usual rules do not apply to the Clintons", but I don't think I'd inflect it exactly the way you would. Things which get overlooked when done by anyone else suddenly become a big federal case (literally) when a Clinton is involved.
Yeah. Actually, Condi Rice is my favorite war criminal. (She's a seriously good pianist.)
I don't think it is in any sense that would spare LC's and Rossweisse's blushes regarding the respectability of conservatives and the Republican party.
Back to the OP. I have been in India and have just caught up with thread. I do need to comment. I am left leaning. I went to my friend’s wedding to his husband a couple of years ago. I work. Jesus was closer to the left wing than the right in how he dealt with people. If you can’t cope having your right wing ideals challenged join the ERG
It may be different elsewhere, and I'm plainly speculating here, but it's worth considering how and why people end up identifying with a political party at all. I wonder if it's all that different from how we end up in our assorted religions/ denominations / etc. According t Pew Research, people reared in a single-faith household tend (if they follow any religion at all) to stick to what they were raised with.
I was struck, on another discussion board, when a poster I knew fairly well spoke about his kids, mentioning that his 12-y.o. daughter had asked him, "We're Republican, aren't we?" It came across to me exactly as though she'd asked, "We're Presbyterian (or whatever), aren't we?" I think she was asking about identity, not political affiliation.
Since kids can't vote, most of us likely think of civic engagement as an adult activity. But if we grow up in households where politics gets discussed and where adults claim a party allegiance and vote, isn't it likely we'll follow parental leads here as well?
I know that Crœsos often characterizes Republicans in decidedly negative ways, and I've never called him on this because I generally agree with this view, though I don't necessarily agree with his wording . Currently, AFAICT, that political party really is up to no good. But is it really fair to assume that anyone who has recently worn that label or voted that way is 100% on board with stacking courts, stonewalling Congress, etc.?
After all, with only two parties to choose from, and with both parties having less-than-pristine track records, a voter who "signs on" as an affiliate to either inevitably dances with some devils. Coupled with the likelihood that we're following family footsteps in our political worldviews, it really does seem unfair to come down on LC as we have.
There's truth to this, I think. Humans often view group memberships as tribal and mandatory. Sports teams, beer brand, music, food, religion, politics, what a house's front yard should look like, celebs, role models, candy, coffee...
I don't know why LC is a Republican. She is conservative about other things, and maybe it just made sense to her--or maybe it's for the reasons above. But she didn't vote for T, so she's not responsible for him and his deeds.
I've had no great love for the Republican party as an institution, and that was before T. I've tended to think of them as the party of the rich and powerful; those who want to be rich and powerful; those who want to keep certain things a certain way; and business people. Those things aren't necessarily bad; but the party often seems to make people's lives worse, except for people in/near The 1%. I'm not fond of Congressional Republicans. There've been decent ones that I simply disagreed with on a good many things. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any currently in office--though I've heard bits of news that various ones publicly disagree with T on certain things. (IMHO, Sen. McCain was a mixed bag, but there were moments of valuing truth and common sense in his political career.)
The California Republican Party is focused on listening to all Californians. We are working to restore our state as the leader in economic growth, job creation and, most of all, affordability.
We recognize that the cost of living is harming Californians’ ability to provide a good life for their families. We want to make California the land of opportunity again—where everyone can get a slice of the American Dream. California should be a state where residents feel safe to run their businesses and raise their families.
We see a future with opportunity, where hard work leads to better jobs and pay. We envision a California where communities are safe, roads are built, air is clean and water is plentiful. Republicans want every child to have access to well-paid, effective teachers for a world-class education.
Our doors are open to you and we hope you will make the decision today to protect, improve and rebuild this state by joining the California Republican Party. Visit us at cagop.org to learn more.
To me, that seems very reasonable, and many "never-Trump" Republicans may be staying because of those ideas.
We see a future with opportunity, where hard work leads to better jobs and pay. We envision a California where communities are safe, roads are built, air is clean and water is plentiful. Republicans want every child to have access to well-paid, effective teachers for a world-class education.
And we will pass legislation that prevents every single one of these things because what we actually mean is we want these things for *us*, not *you*.
European Research Group. Basically the subset of UK Conservative Members of Parliament who are in favour of a Hard Brexit.
I think Hugal meant that it's the natural home for Right Wing loonies.
The ERG is the home (if not the Home) for Literate right-wing loonies. The Brexit Party and UKIP are the natural homes of the right-wing loonies who read with their fingers.
European Research Group. Basically the subset of UK Conservative Members of Parliament who are in favour of a Hard Brexit.
I think Hugal meant that it's the natural home for Right Wing loonies.
The ERG is the home (if not the Home) for Literate right-wing loonies. The Brexit Party and UKIP are the natural homes of the right-wing loonies who read with their fingers.
I get the impression that the tories house the upper and upper middle class racists, the Brexit party the middle and lower middle class racists, and UKIP now cater to the working and underclass racists who formerly found a home with the BNP.
European Research Group. Basically the subset of UK Conservative Members of Parliament who are in favour of a Hard Brexit.
I think Hugal meant that it's the natural home for Right Wing loonies.
The ERG is the home (if not the Home) for Literate right-wing loonies. The Brexit Party and UKIP are the natural homes of the right-wing loonies who read with their fingers.
I get the impression that the tories house the upper and upper middle class racists, the Brexit party the middle and lower middle class racists
It is interesting the extent to which supporters of the Brexit party are adopting the same affect as Trump supporters, complete with calls to 'Make Britain Great Again' and cries of 'lock her up' (presumably T May).
The ERG is the home (if not the Home) for Literate right-wing loonies. The Brexit Party and UKIP are the natural homes of the right-wing loonies who read with their fingers.
For a moment there I thought you were talking about Braille and couldn’t understand why you were being rude about blind people.
The ERG is the home (if not the Home) for Literate right-wing loonies. The Brexit Party and UKIP are the natural homes of the right-wing loonies who read with their fingers.
For a moment there I thought you were talking about Braille and couldn’t understand why you were being rude about blind people.
The ERG is the home (if not the Home) for Literate right-wing loonies. The Brexit Party and UKIP are the natural homes of the right-wing loonies who read with their fingers.
For a moment there I thought you were talking about Braille and couldn’t understand why you were being rude about blind people.
I get you. Didn't think. Posting without due care and attention.
Forgive me for pointing out that there really isn't a Left in the USA, and arguably not a Centre. Rather a Far Right and a Centre Right. And peculiarly, none of that matters when it's guns and abortions being the defining issues. Because nothing else the F matters.
Not being American, I don't have a dog in the fight about Democrats vs Republicans. For that I am glad, because like many I have listened to ( a lot of them who voted for Trump reluctantly), I would have had to choose the lesser of two evils in the last election. A friend recently posted the following on Facebook ( and has given me permission to copy it anywhere I wish).
This is NOT a political statement or position. I am not equip[ed] to properly understand the policies and decisions made in our government. I am not apologizing for being a Christian and a Conservative. But I need to clarify some critical aspects of what is being displayed by our present president regarding his character and manner. I spent over 40 years in the ministry exhorting and compelling congregations about honesty, integrity, manner, courtesy, honoring others and not judging without knowing facts. I am heartbroken that Christians believe the expressions coming from the White House are representative of a man who is applauded and nearly worshiped by believers. I do understand the president stands for Christian liberties and freedoms. He has intermingled with Christian leaders and gained their support and trust without question. This breaks my heart to think that a man who abandons loyalty, throws away those who disagree, demeans and reverts to name calling of anyone and everyone who does not unwaveringly and without question support him, is the one believers value and uphold as their example of what a Christian should be and do. Of course there are examples of his policies that may be helpful politically. He likely has made decisions regarding economics and military directives that have proven correct. I am not here to bash him or his policies. I am here to say that as a Christian I stand opposite the character traits that I previously mentioned. I am not now nor have I ever been a never Trumper. I voted for him because he represented what I thought was healthy conservative thinking. But his methods are not worthy of support. I am not calling for impeachment or removal of this man. I am appealing to every Christian to require so much more from the man we call the President of the United States. It is likely that some of my liberal friends will see this as a support of their political position. It is not. It is simply and solely a call for integrity, honesty and truth.
The reason I post this here is to attempt to show how reasonable Christians can have voted Republican but be distraught about Trump's behaviour.
Republicans have consistently obstructed any attempts to ensure that those at the bottom of the pile of society actually have access to healthcare. They prefer to let people die. I don't see how a reasonable Christian can vote for them at all. There was an interview on the radio the other day with a woman who described a formative event in her childhood when her baby brother found a bottle of aspirin and swallowed them. The hospital did emergency care and pumped his stomach, but he needed admission and monitoring. They took the baby from hospital to hospital but by the time they found one which would take the child without proof the family could pay the child died.
Vote for that situation in a modern, rich country and you've no right to claim to be Christian.
There aren't many hills I'd die on but try to take away free at the point of use healthcare available to all and I'll kick your face in.
Not being American, I don't have a dog in the fight about Democrats vs Republicans. For that I am glad, because like many I have listened to ( a lot of them who voted for Trump reluctantly), I would have had to choose the lesser of two evils in the last election. A friend recently posted the following on Facebook ( and has given me permission to copy it anywhere I wish).
This is NOT a political statement or position. . . . <snip> . . . I do understand the president stands for Christian liberties and freedoms. . . . <snip> . . . He likely has made decisions regarding economics and military directives that have proven correct. . . . <snip> . . . I voted for him because he represented what I thought was healthy conservative thinking. . . . <snip> . . . It is likely that some of my liberal friends will see this as a support of their political position. It is not. It is simply and solely a call for integrity, honesty and truth.
The reason I post this here is to attempt to show how reasonable Christians can have voted Republican but be distraught about Trump's behaviour.
I'm sorry. If all this is meant as apologia for "reasonable Christians who voted for Trump," it's an epic fail.
The writer gives not one single example of the "healthy conservative thinking" he claims Trump exhibits. What, pray tell, are "Christian liberties and freedoms" as opposed to other varieties? Are these the liberties and freedoms which forbid access to birth control? To follow some other religion (you know, in line with the "free will" God is alleged to grant humanity)? Does he cite one instance of a "correct" military or economic decision this president has made (his own advisors frequently decry these!) And on what planet do serial life-long lying soulless morally-bankrupt Mafia-style grifters respond to calls from random preachers to shift lanes, pull U-turns, and suddenly transform into models of integrity, honesty, and truth?
Trump campaigned beginning June 15, 2015. He usurped the Oval Office on Jan. 20, 2017. He's been fucking Tweeting what passes for his fucking brains out now for one fucking month short of 4 solid fucking years and has had MASSIVE press coverage for EVERY BIT of this.
Your preacher friend is a willfully ignorant ostrich-in-sand-headed asshole who has OBVIOUSLY paid ZERO attention to the presidential campaign or to the asshole he voted for. He has invested NOTHING -- not ONE IOTA of rational thought, emotional intelligence, spiritual discernment, or ordinary fucking minimal EFFORT to inform himself to this decision or to love and protect his flock, friends, or neighbors from the catastrophe he has helped unleash.
Maybe the writer was trying to give T the benefit of the doubt? And to give himself some breathing and/or wiggle room in a tangle that is clearly hard for him?
NOT defending what he said/did. If, however, what he said is accurate (or he really believes it is), then he may have had a too-simple checklist for choosing a candidate...or he may have heard and seen what he wanted to hear and see.
He sounds like he thinks he and other Christians have been duped, and that he himself finally realized it.
I don't know what kind of denomination he's from. But I wonder if he's wondering if T is the anti-Christ? 'Cause his description of T insinuating himself with Christians sure sounds like it. (I don't know if the a-C is or will be true. My understanding has been that the a-C would seem so wonderful, polished, and competent that even Christians wouldn't see what he was until it was too late. I think T is wayyyy too damaged to pull that off. I don't think he's really the a-C, but a case could be made.)
I don't think it is in any sense that would spare LC's and Rossweisse's blushes regarding the respectability of conservatives and the Republican party.
There are usually some individuals who stand on their own. I read up on all the candidates who will be on my ballot (weirdo, I know), and make my decisions. Not all Republicans are fascists; not all Democrats in Chicago are corrupt. I refuse to vote any party line.
There are usually some individuals who stand on their own. I read up on all the candidates who will be on my ballot (weirdo, I know), and make my decisions. Not all Republicans are fascists; not all Democrats in Chicago are corrupt. I refuse to vote any party line.
I’m another one who does research on the individual candidates and vote based on that research. I am registered Independent rather than Democrat or Republican.
I don't think it is in any sense that would spare LC's and Rossweisse's blushes regarding the respectability of conservatives and the Republican party.
Please learn to follow the thread of the conversation:
LC, tangentially to her continued fantasizing about vast numbers of never-Trump conservatives, equated the Trump disaster to Clinton's scandal 20 years ago.
You chimed in with more scatter-shot Clinton animus, including "In some ways, they paved the way for Trump".
I noted that never-Trump conservatives can't ever seem to explain why their movement and the Republican party is ecstatically supporting Trump without blaming liberals and the Clintons.
Somebody half-heartedly tried to bait me, though I assert that my monitor remains unbeflecked by (additional) spittle.
I think that brings us about up to date with the post of mine you quoted. Nobody was talking about how you voted, only how people like you and LC can't seem to bring yourselves to assign any responsibility for Trump to anyone except the opposite party.
I’m another one who does research on the individual candidates and vote based on that research. I am registered Independent rather than Democrat or Republican.
Please learn to follow the thread of the conversation... Nobody was talking about how you voted, only how people like you and LC can't seem to bring yourselves to assign any responsibility for Trump to anyone except the opposite party.
Wrong again, Dave. Obviously, the Republicans are primarily to blame; they have sold their souls for a mess of judges, and the Republic - if it stands - will suffer for their monstrous actions for decades to come. My point was merely that the Republicans are not alone in their guilt. Again, please learn to read for comprehension.
Nobody was talking about how you voted, only how people like you and LC can't seem to bring yourselves to assign any responsibility for Trump to anyone except the opposite party.
Murc's Law: only Democrats have any agency or causal influence over American politics.
I'd be prepared to let sharkshooter's preacher have the benefit of the doubt. But not if they are anti-choice Christians. They should have worked out that being anti-choice in a free country is indefensible.
A friend recently posted the following on Facebook ( and has given me permission to copy it anywhere I wish).
I voted for him because he represented what I thought was healthy conservative thinking.
I really can't get my head around this bullshit. Ruth said it better than I can, but it bears repeating- what the actual fuck about a candidate promoting violence against his perceived enemies, outright racism against Black and hispanic Americans, and straight up misogyny is healthy conservative thinking? And how the fuck are there enough assholes out there stupid enough to overlook this crap and vote for the fucker? At the very least, own that shit and apologize for your stupidity.
Yes, yes. But her emails. We must never forget what's truly important here.
Try not to be a bigger jerk than is absolutely necessary, Dave.
(So, I geddit - yer a Chicawguh Democrat. So, what parish you from? Who's your clout? Do you work for the City or the County? I geddit - you have to vote a straight ticket, because if yer in the voting booth longer than it takes to punch that one item, they'll figure out that yer voting for non-Dems. And you could lose yer job for that. Ain't no such thing as a secret ballot in Chicawguh.)
Yes, as the country prepares to charge into yet another war in the Middle East, it is vital that we not take our eye off the true crisis of our times - the corruption of the Democratic machine in Chicago.
Yes, as the country prepares to charge into yet another war in the Middle East, it is vital that we not take our eye off the true crisis of our times - the corruption of the Democratic machine in Chicago.
You're being a jerk again, Dave. Thank you for illustrating my point. Now try to think rationally for a change.
Yes, as the country prepares to charge into yet another war in the Middle East, it is vital that we not take our eye off the true crisis of our times - the corruption of the Democratic machine in Chicago.
Possibly one situation is as intractable as the other?
Comments
Simon Toad, that leopard isn't going to change its spots.
The emails weren't the best example, although they remain problematic. I dislike her more for the way she treated the women who came forward about Bill. (This article is from a source sympathetic to the Clintons: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/03/us/politics/hillary-bill-clinton-women.html?login=email&auth=login-email)
This article examines and rates the seriousness of the various scandals surrounding the Clintons:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/tracking-the-clinton-controversies-from-whitewater-to-benghazi/396182/
Actually, I think it is. But perhaps not in the way you're pantomiming.
Thx.
I think Hugal meant that it's the natural home for Right Wing loonies.
There's truth to this, I think. Humans often view group memberships as tribal and mandatory. Sports teams, beer brand, music, food, religion, politics, what a house's front yard should look like, celebs, role models, candy, coffee...
I don't know why LC is a Republican. She is conservative about other things, and maybe it just made sense to her--or maybe it's for the reasons above. But she didn't vote for T, so she's not responsible for him and his deeds.
I've had no great love for the Republican party as an institution, and that was before T. I've tended to think of them as the party of the rich and powerful; those who want to be rich and powerful; those who want to keep certain things a certain way; and business people. Those things aren't necessarily bad; but the party often seems to make people's lives worse, except for people in/near The 1%. I'm not fond of Congressional Republicans. There've been decent ones that I simply disagreed with on a good many things. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any currently in office--though I've heard bits of news that various ones publicly disagree with T on certain things. (IMHO, Sen. McCain was a mixed bag, but there were moments of valuing truth and common sense in his political career.)
OTOH, I went to the Republican party's statement of purpose on our state site. Here's what is says:
To me, that seems very reasonable, and many "never-Trump" Republicans may be staying because of those ideas.
And we will pass legislation that prevents every single one of these things because what we actually mean is we want these things for *us*, not *you*.
The ERG is the home (if not the Home) for Literate right-wing loonies. The Brexit Party and UKIP are the natural homes of the right-wing loonies who read with their fingers.
I get the impression that the tories house the upper and upper middle class racists, the Brexit party the middle and lower middle class racists, and UKIP now cater to the working and underclass racists who formerly found a home with the BNP.
Many at the moment. That is why we got the Brexit party. Lord help the EU if a load of them get in.
They’ll be incredibly out of their depth.
UKIP MEPs were always out of their depth, as was Nick Griffin of the BNP when he was MEP. They were all spectacularly lazy too.
It is interesting the extent to which supporters of the Brexit party are adopting the same affect as Trump supporters, complete with calls to 'Make Britain Great Again' and cries of 'lock her up' (presumably T May).
For a moment there I thought you were talking about Braille and couldn’t understand why you were being rude about blind people.
Same.
I get you. Didn't think. Posting without due care and attention.
Bernie Saunders is definitely a right winger. Says so on his Wikipedia page.
Bernie Sanders, on the other hand . . .
The reason I post this here is to attempt to show how reasonable Christians can have voted Republican but be distraught about Trump's behaviour.
Vote for that situation in a modern, rich country and you've no right to claim to be Christian.
There aren't many hills I'd die on but try to take away free at the point of use healthcare available to all and I'll kick your face in.
What did Donald Trump ever say or do that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that he represented “healthy conservative thinking”?
"Healthy Conservative Thinking" - an oxymoron if ever I heard one.
I'm sorry. If all this is meant as apologia for "reasonable Christians who voted for Trump," it's an epic fail.
The writer gives not one single example of the "healthy conservative thinking" he claims Trump exhibits. What, pray tell, are "Christian liberties and freedoms" as opposed to other varieties? Are these the liberties and freedoms which forbid access to birth control? To follow some other religion (you know, in line with the "free will" God is alleged to grant humanity)? Does he cite one instance of a "correct" military or economic decision this president has made (his own advisors frequently decry these!) And on what planet do serial life-long lying soulless morally-bankrupt Mafia-style grifters respond to calls from random preachers to shift lanes, pull U-turns, and suddenly transform into models of integrity, honesty, and truth?
Trump campaigned beginning June 15, 2015. He usurped the Oval Office on Jan. 20, 2017. He's been fucking Tweeting what passes for his fucking brains out now for one fucking month short of 4 solid fucking years and has had MASSIVE press coverage for EVERY BIT of this.
Your preacher friend is a willfully ignorant ostrich-in-sand-headed asshole who has OBVIOUSLY paid ZERO attention to the presidential campaign or to the asshole he voted for. He has invested NOTHING -- not ONE IOTA of rational thought, emotional intelligence, spiritual discernment, or ordinary fucking minimal EFFORT to inform himself to this decision or to love and protect his flock, friends, or neighbors from the catastrophe he has helped unleash.
He can go straight to hell and stay there.
It sounds like he's saying "he must have done SOMETHING right, I just can't think of anything right now."
NOT defending what he said/did. If, however, what he said is accurate (or he really believes it is), then he may have had a too-simple checklist for choosing a candidate...or he may have heard and seen what he wanted to hear and see.
He sounds like he thinks he and other Christians have been duped, and that he himself finally realized it.
I don't know what kind of denomination he's from. But I wonder if he's wondering if T is the anti-Christ? 'Cause his description of T insinuating himself with Christians sure sounds like it. (I don't know if the a-C is or will be true. My understanding has been that the a-C would seem so wonderful, polished, and competent that even Christians wouldn't see what he was until it was too late. I think T is wayyyy too damaged to pull that off. I don't think he's really the a-C, but a case could be made.)
I’m another one who does research on the individual candidates and vote based on that research. I am registered Independent rather than Democrat or Republican.
Please learn to follow the thread of the conversation:
- LC, tangentially to her continued fantasizing about vast numbers of never-Trump conservatives, equated the Trump disaster to Clinton's scandal 20 years ago.
- I called bullshit.
- You chimed in with more scatter-shot Clinton animus, including "In some ways, they paved the way for Trump".
- I noted that never-Trump conservatives can't ever seem to explain why their movement and the Republican party is ecstatically supporting Trump without blaming liberals and the Clintons.
- Somebody half-heartedly tried to bait me, though I assert that my monitor remains unbeflecked by (additional) spittle.
I think that brings us about up to date with the post of mine you quoted. Nobody was talking about how you voted, only how people like you and LC can't seem to bring yourselves to assign any responsibility for Trump to anyone except the opposite party.Wrong again, Dave. Obviously, the Republicans are primarily to blame; they have sold their souls for a mess of judges, and the Republic - if it stands - will suffer for their monstrous actions for decades to come. My point was merely that the Republicans are not alone in their guilt. Again, please learn to read for comprehension.
Murc's Law: only Democrats have any agency or causal influence over American politics.
I really can't get my head around this bullshit. Ruth said it better than I can, but it bears repeating- what the actual fuck about a candidate promoting violence against his perceived enemies, outright racism against Black and hispanic Americans, and straight up misogyny is healthy conservative thinking? And how the fuck are there enough assholes out there stupid enough to overlook this crap and vote for the fucker? At the very least, own that shit and apologize for your stupidity.
(So, I geddit - yer a Chicawguh Democrat. So, what parish you from? Who's your clout? Do you work for the City or the County? I geddit - you have to vote a straight ticket, because if yer in the voting booth longer than it takes to punch that one item, they'll figure out that yer voting for non-Dems. And you could lose yer job for that. Ain't no such thing as a secret ballot in Chicawguh.)
Possibly one situation is as intractable as the other?