My theory: Ck compulsively reads everything, and thus has found xemself in the unenviable position of force-feeding xemself all of Penny's mind-eroding drivel... and has gotten the full dose of annoyance.
Hmmm..."xemself". Haven't seen it before, but could be useful. Some people use "Latinx", rather than "Latino" or "Latina"...though that probably works better in writing rather than speaking, IMHO.
Anyone remember Transactional Analysis ("Games People Play")? The memory has been knocking on my brain the last few days. The concept is passe now but it did have interesting things to say about people's motivations for getting involved in these situations. Take our Penny S. Her purpose in life seems to be rescuing people as a Good Christian should and being abused for doing so. D likes bullying people and having already wrung out her son has moved on to Penny. D's son seems to be a mama's boy who never took the reins of his own life and now has a second, nicer mommy in Penny. Penny's Friends friends act as a Greek chorus of supporters/enablers, and we, dear shipmates, mostly are a Greek chorus of persecutors/critics.
Obviously, Penny, D and son are the primary players who have placed the situation at the center of their lives. There might be annoyance, hostility, depression, but there isn't boredom. The situation creates a lot of passion that is probably missing from their lives. The Friends get to sympathize and get points for being compassionate without really doing anything. We get to feel superior and unload some random anger because she insists on venting and not paying attention to our wisdom. Also it is interesting to watch a real life drama unfold. This has applied to me as a big time fan of "COPS", "The First 48", "Alaska State Troopers", and "Helicopter Rescue". There is a certain satisfaction in being able to type missives to the Ship instead of yelling at the screen. But I think I'll cool it now. (I've said that before!) It doesn't bring out the best in me. Anyone else who wants to keep berating her, don't worry. I'm sure your contributions are an acceptable part of the game, otherwise she wouldn't be bravely coming back for more.
By the way, what I just posted is called "game calling" which isn't very nice and is contraindicated in therapy groups. But this isn't therapy, it's Hell.
I agree with CK that far too many threads, especially the Diffficult Relatives thread, have been hijacked by this saga over the years.
I think all PennyS’s posts on the subject should be funnelled straight here.
Or maybe she could have her own thread in AS where those who are minded can say ‘oh dear, what a shame’ without feeling frustrated that she’s doing nothing to improve matters for anyone.
There comes a point when venting is unhelpful to both the person doing the venting and everyone in their immediate vicinity who has to listen to them. Eventually something snaps …
The public domain issue has been pointed out before and it has been recommended that Penny dial it back in case someone who knows them stumbles across her outpourings and it all kicks off.
This is a public, open access forum that anyone can read. It is not a safe, private space.
I’ll just mention that again as a few of the posts here, including my own, suggest it's been forgotten … Sigh ...
I think, based on posts by CK on the ship, that she has suffered terrible injury at the hands of another individual in her community - who was enabled to stay in the wrong place without adequate support by a 'bad samaritan'. And reading Penny S's accounts of being, as CK sees it, a 'bad samaritan' triggers very strong feelings.
I actually think both people concerned, CK & Penny, need rather more compassion than Hell is able to provide. Penny is unwise, but the emotional dynamics of relationships are extremely powerful and maybe she just can't do what she is advised to do. CK may appear 'unfailingly nasty' about this - but I think that if I had been through what seems to have happened to her, I might not be able to empathise with Penny's perspective either.
The thing is, what Penny wants to do should be possible. In an ideal world, you should be able to go to social services, tell them that you have this awkward old woman in your house, that you are going to put her out on the street, and that her own house is uninhabitable. And in that ideal world, they would make all the assessments they needed to make at that point, agree that it was kind not to dump an elderly lady on a street corner, and work with Penny to create a plan to transition D's mum into her own home, or into some other facility.
Penny thinks that should happen, and I agree with her. It should happen.
All of that would happen, if Penny was willing to go to social services, tell them that she has this awkward old woman in her house, that she is going to put her out on the street, and that her own house is uninhabitable. But that's not what Penny wants. She wants Social Services to unilaterally rock up to her door, declare the situation untenable and take D away without her having to actually do anything, so that she can maintain the fiction that she was being a "Good Christian" the whole time.
And that just ain't.gonna.fucking.happen.
Penny hates the situation she's in, but not half as much as she hates the idea that she might be seen as a Bad Person who kicked a frail old woman out of her home. And as long as that continues to be the case, she's going to continue to be D's doormat/carer/slave.
Whatever you think of Penny's decisions, situation, and stuckness, all she's done on the Ship is vent. You can easily scroll past her posts.
And if you're going to say "Because I care", your style is rather like a metal rasp that's been heated and dipped in acid. Generally, the opposite of helpful.
So what gives?
Hey, Golden Key. Curiosity killed suffered an acid attack committed by a mentally ill neighbour who was being poorly and inadequately "supported" by a Bad Samaritan. This is information that Curiosity killed has posted on this Ship, and the stated rationale for the initial post.
I knew she'd had a problem with a neighbor who was enabled by another neighbor, who *then* tried to interfere in CK's life. (Per OP.) TTBOMK, I never knew she'd been attacked with acid. That's horrible, and I hope you heal. I remember seeing the words "acid attack" somewhere online, but I don't think they were attached to any particular person. If I missed that or somehow forgot it, I sincerely apologize to CK. I do see now a mention of burns in the OP. TTBOMK, I didn't see that, or it didn't register, or I didn't connect it with an acid attack. Again, sincere apologies to CK.
Thanks for the info, Leaf, because it gives context.
ETA: Leaf, I just saw what you were probably referring to--the mention of acid. If I'd known/realized what had happened to CK, I would've never chosen that word. Apologies to CK. And you were a good friend to her to point that out. I didn't realize until just now that's what you meant.
@Penny S you may not have recognised yourself, but you were one of the Bad Samaritans I was thinking of as I started this thread. Some questions to ponder: ...
So ISTM that the focus is intended for more than her situation.
My concern has been, throughout the various discussions of Penny, that the overall discussion style seemed like dog-piling and/or a slow-moving feeding frenzy. And that seemed wrong.
Yes, suffered an acid attack the day the New Ship™¹ opened to us oiks, and yes, @RooK have spent entirely too much time on the Ship because I had 7 weeks off sick without a lot of energy to do much - that's why I'm one of the three people who've admitted to racking up over 1000 posts on the New Ship™. Still spending too much time here as we hates the sun, it burns us². What you missed on that list is that I'm also, currently, a carer.
All of which I have said on the Ship - but I've also played a lot of games. And yes, I do need to get a life.
¹ Which is going to court and is likely to hit the press as acid attacks do.
² Burns, any burns, leave the skin sun sensitive - for at least a year.
I had an MIL who was an ‘annoying Samaritan’ rather than a bad one. She would do all my ironing (marvellous!) then complain to everyone who would listen that she had to do my ironing (grrrr!)
I’ve spent the weekend at my DILs and I’m acutely aware of not just doing things that need doing and always asking ‘can I help’. But that could be annoying too. A minefield!
(Not that I would ever do an MIL style complain, it’s not in my nature)
The line between doing good because it makes us feel good and doing good because it needs doing can be a fine, hard to discern one. I do my charity work because I love it, a side effect is that it does good. I help my husband with his charity work because it needs doing - I don’t enjoy it at all.
Sorry to commit thread necromancy but the saga of @Penny S, D and son is beginning to dominate the Today I Call to Hell, Prayer thread and Praise threads over the last few days and weeks, starting with a series of posts from here on when the TICTH thread is being taken over (mea culpa we should not respond):
Hospital discharge procedures. Apparently the people at "home" must not indulge in any activities which might mean they can't accept the patient back without notice. Like seeing relations. Or anything, really.
And discharging people who can not longer care for themselves is OK because they can arrange for a string of care assistants to invade someone's house to do it.
I have been advised that I have the right to refuse to offer care. Not a concept known round here. It's here, or a house not fit for habitation.
And then, just to remind me of my place in the scheme of things, while waiting while my friend saw his mother, I couldn't get into the hospital chapel, I couldn't get a copy of the Guardian, or anything else I wanted to read, and M&S didn't have the sandwich I wanted (I'd not been able to eat breakfast because of the phone call) or a sensible drink.
The idea that support networks exist is specious, apart from the community nurses leg wrapping visits. Today's moan is because yesterday they told us, and D, that she would be going to a sort of halfway place today, and then today rang me to say she was coming here today. Which is thoughtless, to say the least. And they apply emotional blackmail.
I shall be telling the CAB that their advice to refuse to have her back is ineffective.
D has, surprisingly, asked me for a bill.
A lot of work as I have not been able to catch up on the spreadsheets.
We are both trapped.
Nice one introduced yesterday. I have to admit someone to assess my downstairs room for accommodation for D. I do? The room which now houses my property as a store because I have to put things out of the way, and has a tiny corner for me to access the computer and printer. I wasn't allowed to explain this yesterday, as it depends on an outside person assessing it. I simply cannot believe that this is expected to happen. Legally.
And my response is now going to be Hellish, having responded on the Today I Call to Hell thread:
@Penny S You are trapped in a situation totally of your making - you can either follow CAB advice and let D move back to her own house, washing her hands of her and son. Or you can put up, shut up and live with the situation of your making. Because you were warned, repeatedly, that this is what would happen.
Oh, good Lord, so that's what happened to that saga! I don't usually read that thread and so was blissfully ignorant of the fact that the saga continues. I'm surprised that the woman is still alive and that she's still freeloading off of Penny, but I'm not surprised that Penny is still playing the suffering servant game and assuming that we want to know her troubles.
She is not going to do it, I reckon. The only thing I can figure is that as a "good" friend and Christian, it is simply something she can't face doing and still look at herself in the mirror. Another possible thing is that if D gets mad enough at Penny and her son to disinherit him, he might be in dire straits in the future.
However I think that if Penny did let her go back to her own property by refusing to let her be discharged to Penny's home, now that official people are poking around with inspections and such, they'd see that D can't make proper decisions for herself since she is ready to go back to a house that is uninhabitable and is unwilling to make it inhabitable although she has the means.
But Penny won't do it. This is the situation she spoke of using to leverage D out last year. And now here she is ready to take her back. It is what Penny chooses.
The official people looking at Penny S's home to consider adapting the downstairs room will be social services in Penny S's home area, either from the hospital or local social services. Often hospitals will employ a social worker as having one to sort out these things helps move on bed blocking patients. They will not be the social services local to D's home, which is in a different local authority area (think state).
If Penny S had ever taken the advice to be assessed as a carer and could show she wasn't coping she'd be in a better position to refuse to take D back.
That's the thing. We've all advised her repeatedly until we're blue in the face, and she has always come up with one excuse or another for why she can't follow our advice. It's a hopeless task. There's no point trying to advise her further.
Yeah, that's why I brought this back to Hell: to remind us (or tip off those new to this game) that we had been here before, repeatedly, offering advice from hard won experience, none of which was taken.
Without saying too much, I have (via PMs) tried to offer a bit of Sage Advice myself, along the lines of 'if, when they arrive with the patient, the house is not suitable/the care package is unavailable/the locks have been changed, the Ambulance Crew will take the patient back to the home/hospital'.
I have myself done this thing, putting the problem (and the patient, sadly) back in the hands of TPTB.
This, of course, chimes in with what @Pigwidgeon says above...
If Penny S had ever taken the advice to be assessed as a carer and could show she wasn't coping she'd be in a better position to refuse to take D back.
Does she have to improve her position? AIUI, she has no legal obligation towards D, who is not part of her family either. I can't see how she could be forced to take D back if she said No. Just close the door in her face if she's brought around.
The position has been complicated by D living that house for 2 years, which will make a presumption that it's her usual place of residence - legally it's the point at which she started receiving mail at that address. I doubt anything has ever been set up with legal advice, such as formal tenancy agreements.
Almost certainly not a tenancy; exclusive possession is an essential for a tenancy. At the most it could be a licence and absent any agreement to the contrary a licence is terminable at will. While it may have been D's usual place of residence for 2 years, that by itself does not give any particular rights. All this is subject of course to any UK legislation.
She needs a lawyer, not voices on the internet. But I don't think she'll seek one out, because if she seriously wanted D out she would have seen one long ago.
I think maybe @Penny S , that you need to be needed? Even ‘tho it takes over your life. Maybe you also need to be seen as a wonderful carer, even ‘tho this person drives you to distraction?
Maybe caring for this person helps you to stop thinking about your own life?
I guess one can always scroll past any further posts on this sad subject, but I do feel some sympathy for Penny S, who, whatever mess she's got herself into (willy-nilly), has at least tried to help someone less fortunate than herself.
I gave all this advice before, and made it clear it was from years of professional experience, but it was ignored. I wish Penny would stop sniping at the various health and social care professionals. D is their patient; Penny is not. If D chooses to live with Penny and Penny chooses to accept caring for her, there are no grounds on which a professional would be able to remove D from the house.
This is Today I Consign To Hell, the All Saints version.
We've been tossing this idea round in the Hosts' lounge for a wee while now, so here it is.
If you have a grouse or a grump, or next door's cat is getting on your nerves, or even if you're just really hacked off about something, tell us here.
Just one topic per post, please, and while responses of support and advice are OK (this is AS after all), if a particular topic becomes a bit overwhelming, we may suggest it gets its own thread. Please remember, too, that All Saints rules apply, so no personal attacks on Shipmates.
Yeah, and the reward for doing something difficult is to be given something harder.
But the hospital have grasped at last that this isn't her home - I was quite explicit on the phone yesterday, and she is showing them what a pain she is by refusing to be tested using stairs. "There's no point, Penny doesn't want me." I actually think it's because she hates failing at things, and having lost so much mobility, the girl who delights in telling me she won all the races doesn't want to fail on the stairs - and this could be behind all the other recent problems. Failing to keep herself clean is a very bad fail. But it can't be her fault. It's my fault.
I think having an acute hospital without a link to non-acute placement is utterly daft. I have written to Matt Hancock, who is probably too busy angling to be PM to read department stuff. Andrew Dilnott was talking about his report about adult social care on BBC R4 Today yesterday, and said that the carers who have been treated worse than me, as seen on TV last night about Somerset (missed it) are too exhausted to campaign. So I'll keep writing. My MP remains silent in response to my emails.
He's responded on other subjects, that didn't require constituent care, but were about my opinion on something or other, and one email has been with him for many months. I know he got it because I got the automatic feedback.
Sorry about the icecream, and the car.
What is it you think your MP could do, Penny? Presumably the best solution would be for D's son to fix up their own home, so that he and D could return there, and the "string of care assistants" could visit D there.
What progress has been made by D's son in the two years she's been living with you, vis a vis decluttering their own home, and fixing the cooker and the toilet flush?
Wrong place really, but progress is not possible when tradespeople will not, quite properly, embark on work without the householder's signature on paperwork, and the householder absolutely refuses to provide it.
I have forgotten much of what you said but is it possible for the council or some authority to insist on the place being repaired or cleaned out? I live in Australia so have no knowledge of your regulations. I do know of one place here which is regularly cleaned out of rubbish acquired by a hoarder which renders house and yard unsafe for living. Fire regulations etc are breached.
Is there no way that the need for her signature can be circumvented by officialdom?
That's a good point, Loth. Is a Power of Attorney for her son out of the question?
@Piglet - a lasting power of attorney is something the ailing/elderly person sets up to give the power of attorney to others - it's not something others can do for someone else. So D would have to agree and sign a LPA
The G4S patient transport driver who was so concerned about D's inabilities to a) walk from the transport, b) get from a wheelchair into the house, c) get out of the chair she was eventually decanted into, in the hall, next to the loo, that he spent ages on the phone trying to get a sensible outcome about the stairs they said they had tested her ability on. And the rapid response occupational therapist who was similarly concerned about the situation, but could not get the 111 and the 999 people to recognise enough of an emergency to get D taken back, though did get them to be concerned as well. They really went beyond their defined duties.
No good came of it, but not their fault.
And if she had gone back to her own place, and if it had been got up to spec., she would still have not been in a fit state to live there. She cannot leave the chair she is now in (upstairs), or eat more than a bite or two, or drink more than the occasional sip.
This is praise? Not another excuse for a blogging whinge?
@Lothlorien there are limited grounds allowing agencies to enter privately owned houses, which were reduced and consolidated a few years ago under this pdf document. The only possible under clauses 23, 24 and 25, assuming any stripped to the bone local authority agency has the capacity to do any of these where there is no danger to anyone else:
23: Sch. 7. Further Provisions regarding Empty Dwelling Management Orders.
Pt 3. Interim and Final Empty Dwelling Management Orders.
Para. 25. This is the power to enter premises to carry out improvement works.
The aim is to consolidate this power with s239 Consolidation Housing Act 2004. It has been deemed necessary to keep the power itself to tackle sub-standard accommodation that has been left empty for a significant period of time. A series of other amendments have already been put in place to stop disproportionate use of these powers.
24: Part 7. Supplementary & Final Provisions.
s.239. General powers of entry - the power to enter premises for inspection or to ascertain if a crime has been committed.
This is the power that is the key to housing authorities being able to inspect properties to check reported health risks such as carbon monoxide poisoning and to check that enforcement notices have been complied with. The power is non-invasive and normally requires 24 hour notification. No warrant is required to ascertain whether a crime has been committed.
25: Sch. 3. Improvement Notices: Enforcement Action by local housing authorities.
Para. 3. Power to take action without agreement.
This power is needed to enable a local authority to enter a dwelling to carry out improvement works where an improvement notice has not been complied with, or to address a hazard
I’m beginning to think Penny S and D are well matched. Neither listens to anyone or even considers taking advice.
I think she should keep her moans to this thread. I think she enjoys martyr status - but we don’t enjoy reading about it on threads which are set up for prayer or general grumbles.
I shall be telling the CAB that their advice to refuse to have her back is ineffective.
Their advice is 100% correct. To make it effective, all you need to do is to tell those trying to place D with you is that your house is your house and that you are no longer going to accept D into it - then keep firm in your position. To put it bluntly, you need to be effective yourself.
As to a power of attorney: a person needs to be of sound mind to give a Power. Subject to any statutory authority, a Power of Attorney ceases when the person giving it loses the ability (ie, the sound mind) to revoke it. Think about that for a moment and it will become clear why that is the position. It may be possible for someone - and I doubt that that someone is you, but D's son would be suitable - to apply to the court for an order appointing a manager of D's affairs. That certainly used be the position in England (no idea about the position in the rest of the UK) and the matter would have been heard in the Chancery Division of the High Court. Please note carefully that you need to seek competent legal advice about the present position.
I have no idea of the ability of a council to clean up a house in the UK. It can be done here but the position is considerably more complex than you may gather from Lothlorien's post.
But in the end, it all comes back to your being effective, setting out your position and sticking to it.
@Gee D - see above, there are very limited powers of entry into private houses to make them safe in England and Wales
Wrong place really, but progress is not possible when tradespeople will not, quite properly, embark on work without the householder's signature on paperwork, and the householder absolutely refuses to provide it.
We are going on holiday soon. Our son, who lives elsewhere, will be staying in our house, primarily to care for our pet. If the toilet flush breaks while we are away, I can guarantee that he will be able to get it fixed without our signature on any paperwork. Most tradespeople, faced with a problem and somebody willing to pay to have it fixed, would just crack on. I'm sure even if our son made it explicit that he was not the householder the conversation would go something like this:
"The fuse in the main fuse box has blown, and I need to get it fixed before my parents get home from holiday."
"It's a busy time of year, but I can get somebody round the day after tomorrow. Are your parents off somewhere nice?"
Plus, who, exactly, is preventing D's son from cleaning and decluttering?
I have no idea of the ability of a council to clean up a house in the UK. It can be done here but the position is considerably more complex than you may gather from Lothlorien's post.
But in the end, it all comes back to your being effective, setting out your position and sticking to it.
@Gee D - see above, there are very limited powers of entry into private houses to make them safe in England and Wales
As there are here. That's why I said that the position is much more complex than the post may have led Penny to believe. In the case to which Lothlorien refers, there had been numerous breaches of fire and health safety regulations, prosecutions, fines, and from memory prison sentences imposed and court orders for work to be done. After all this history, plus rather a lot more, an order was made. AFAIK, if this was not a one-off case, there would have been very few others.
It goes back to my last paragraph, as Boogie's post says also. Penny has to decide to be effective herself.
Comrades, it's one thing to bring Penny's shit over here and grouse about it, but it might well be crossing a finely-drawn line to say that board boundaries are being not only ignored but trampled on, and the implicit criticism thereafter of the AS hosts.
If you have a beef with how threads in AS are being run, that's a Styx matter and not a Hell one. I will direct this latest outpouring of wailing and teeth-gnashing to the appropriate eyes. If they have further comments, there'll be a Styx thread opened up.
This thread has moved well past its remit. If anyone has new ideas for help, please PM Penny S but no more here. Yes, I am aware I also posted recently on it and see it did not really help. But nothing helps. Could all refrain from giving further advice or comments.
The thread was for minor grievances and short moans were fine.
Please drop further comments on this AS thread on anything to do with this topic as of now.
New whines suiting original purpose of things are fine. Just nothing more on this.
Sorry, I was called to dinner where screens are totally forbidden even for the matriarch of the family. That above was a host post. Thread will be closed if instructions are not heeded. Lothlorien, AS Host.
Is it possible for Lothlorien's host-post to be transferred, or copied, to the TICTH in All Saints? I suspect that some peeps may not be picking up the Penny S saga on this thread.
Penny has tried, long and hard, to get better situations in place, to get help for the woman, to get the local powers that be (PTB) to do what they should and get stuff done. She's talked to all sorts of people, and I know the problem with getting a signature for the tradespeople to prove it's ok for them to do the job has come up before.
I think maybe the son had difficulties with the woman, after trying for a long time, and pretty much ran away screaming when there was a chance of any relief. IIRC, he had some difficulties of his own, too.
I suspect that views on this situation depend largely on the Shipmate's own experience with bureaucracies, etc., and other situations they've heard of. I know that dealing with bureaucracies at all is almost always a royal pain. Being in the right (and having proof) is no guarantee of getting any help at all. Even if you have advocates. (And sometimes advocates quit doing the direct interceding with bureaucrats, authorities, agency workers, etc., because it's disheartening and they did it for years already.)
Several points - @Penny S has not been directing her efforts in the right directions. That's the cause of much of the ire here. Penny S cannot get people to act on D's behalf unless D requests that help. All Penny S can do is request help for herself. This is the UK, there is a lot more in place if you approach the right people for the right help. Lots of us are working and/or living within the same restraints.
I have been irritated by many of the posts from Penny S inveighing against various support agencies, because those agencies are doing their job. What Penny S wants them to do is often something else, out of their remit. And it's not fair slagging off various people publicly for doing what they should be just because you want it to be something else.
Comments
Obviously, Penny, D and son are the primary players who have placed the situation at the center of their lives. There might be annoyance, hostility, depression, but there isn't boredom. The situation creates a lot of passion that is probably missing from their lives. The Friends get to sympathize and get points for being compassionate without really doing anything. We get to feel superior and unload some random anger because she insists on venting and not paying attention to our wisdom. Also it is interesting to watch a real life drama unfold. This has applied to me as a big time fan of "COPS", "The First 48", "Alaska State Troopers", and "Helicopter Rescue". There is a certain satisfaction in being able to type missives to the Ship instead of yelling at the screen. But I think I'll cool it now. (I've said that before!) It doesn't bring out the best in me. Anyone else who wants to keep berating her, don't worry. I'm sure your contributions are an acceptable part of the game, otherwise she wouldn't be bravely coming back for more.
But I also think we all need to give up now.
I agree with CK that far too many threads, especially the Diffficult Relatives thread, have been hijacked by this saga over the years.
I think all PennyS’s posts on the subject should be funnelled straight here.
Or maybe she could have her own thread in AS where those who are minded can say ‘oh dear, what a shame’ without feeling frustrated that she’s doing nothing to improve matters for anyone.
The public domain issue has been pointed out before and it has been recommended that Penny dial it back in case someone who knows them stumbles across her outpourings and it all kicks off.
This is a public, open access forum that anyone can read. It is not a safe, private space.
I’ll just mention that again as a few of the posts here, including my own, suggest it's been forgotten … Sigh ...
I actually think both people concerned, CK & Penny, need rather more compassion than Hell is able to provide. Penny is unwise, but the emotional dynamics of relationships are extremely powerful and maybe she just can't do what she is advised to do. CK may appear 'unfailingly nasty' about this - but I think that if I had been through what seems to have happened to her, I might not be able to empathise with Penny's perspective either.
All of that would happen, if Penny was willing to go to social services, tell them that she has this awkward old woman in her house, that she is going to put her out on the street, and that her own house is uninhabitable. But that's not what Penny wants. She wants Social Services to unilaterally rock up to her door, declare the situation untenable and take D away without her having to actually do anything, so that she can maintain the fiction that she was being a "Good Christian" the whole time.
And that just ain't.gonna.fucking.happen.
Penny hates the situation she's in, but not half as much as she hates the idea that she might be seen as a Bad Person who kicked a frail old woman out of her home. And as long as that continues to be the case, she's going to continue to be D's doormat/carer/slave.
Hey, Golden Key. Curiosity killed suffered an acid attack committed by a mentally ill neighbour who was being poorly and inadequately "supported" by a Bad Samaritan. This is information that Curiosity killed has posted on this Ship, and the stated rationale for the initial post.
Maybe think about what you just wrote.
I knew she'd had a problem with a neighbor who was enabled by another neighbor, who *then* tried to interfere in CK's life. (Per OP.) TTBOMK, I never knew she'd been attacked with acid. That's horrible, and I hope you heal. I remember seeing the words "acid attack" somewhere online, but I don't think they were attached to any particular person. If I missed that or somehow forgot it, I sincerely apologize to CK. I do see now a mention of burns in the OP. TTBOMK, I didn't see that, or it didn't register, or I didn't connect it with an acid attack. Again, sincere apologies to CK.
Thanks for the info, Leaf, because it gives context.
ETA: Leaf, I just saw what you were probably referring to--the mention of acid. If I'd known/realized what had happened to CK, I would've never chosen that word. Apologies to CK. And you were a good friend to her to point that out. I didn't realize until just now that's what you meant.
As far as why CK started the thread: Yes, it was about her horrible situation. But, on the first page of this thread, she said:
So ISTM that the focus is intended for more than her situation.
My concern has been, throughout the various discussions of Penny, that the overall discussion style seemed like dog-piling and/or a slow-moving feeding frenzy. And that seemed wrong.
FWIW.
All of which I have said on the Ship - but I've also played a lot of games. And yes, I do need to get a life.
¹ Which is going to court and is likely to hit the press as acid attacks do.
² Burns, any burns, leave the skin sun sensitive - for at least a year.
I hope for the best possible outcome from the trial, and that any publicity isn't more than you can easily handle. (Which might be none at all.)
And that you heal well and completely.
I had an MIL who was an ‘annoying Samaritan’ rather than a bad one. She would do all my ironing (marvellous!) then complain to everyone who would listen that she had to do my ironing (grrrr!)
I’ve spent the weekend at my DILs and I’m acutely aware of not just doing things that need doing and always asking ‘can I help’. But that could be annoying too. A minefield!
(Not that I would ever do an MIL style complain, it’s not in my nature)
The line between doing good because it makes us feel good and doing good because it needs doing can be a fine, hard to discern one. I do my charity work because I love it, a side effect is that it does good. I help my husband with his charity work because it needs doing - I don’t enjoy it at all.
and
And my response is now going to be Hellish, having responded on the Today I Call to Hell thread:
@Penny S You are trapped in a situation totally of your making - you can either follow CAB advice and let D move back to her own house, washing her hands of her and son. Or you can put up, shut up and live with the situation of your making. Because you were warned, repeatedly, that this is what would happen.
AMEN!
Then leave on a long cruise without internet or phones (but only after changing the locks on your home).
However I think that if Penny did let her go back to her own property by refusing to let her be discharged to Penny's home, now that official people are poking around with inspections and such, they'd see that D can't make proper decisions for herself since she is ready to go back to a house that is uninhabitable and is unwilling to make it inhabitable although she has the means.
But Penny won't do it. This is the situation she spoke of using to leverage D out last year. And now here she is ready to take her back. It is what Penny chooses.
If Penny S had ever taken the advice to be assessed as a carer and could show she wasn't coping she'd be in a better position to refuse to take D back.
That's the thing. We've all advised her repeatedly until we're blue in the face, and she has always come up with one excuse or another for why she can't follow our advice. It's a hopeless task. There's no point trying to advise her further.
I have myself done this thing, putting the problem (and the patient, sadly) back in the hands of TPTB.
This, of course, chimes in with what @Pigwidgeon says above...
Does she have to improve her position? AIUI, she has no legal obligation towards D, who is not part of her family either. I can't see how she could be forced to take D back if she said No. Just close the door in her face if she's brought around.
Maybe caring for this person helps you to stop thinking about your own life?
Excellent advice all round.
...
Now how can the other threads be freed from this saga?
One assumes that the ongoing saga will come to an end at some future date, but at what cost to those involved?
There comes a point, surely, when everyone not immediately concerned needs to simply step back...
From the TICTH, the board that is prefaced with:
Starting again here
Following some advice about writing to MPs:
@Piglet - a lasting power of attorney is something the ailing/elderly person sets up to give the power of attorney to others - it's not something others can do for someone else. So D would have to agree and sign a LPA
And from the Praise thread
This is praise? Not another excuse for a blogging whinge?
I think she should keep her moans to this thread. I think she enjoys martyr status - but we don’t enjoy reading about it on threads which are set up for prayer or general grumbles.
@Gee D - see above, there are very limited powers of entry into private houses to make them safe in England and Wales
@North East Quine @Penny S
Because really, this saga deserves a thread to itself, rather than taking over TICTH, the Praise thread and the Prayer thread
As there are here. That's why I said that the position is much more complex than the post may have led Penny to believe. In the case to which Lothlorien refers, there had been numerous breaches of fire and health safety regulations, prosecutions, fines, and from memory prison sentences imposed and court orders for work to be done. After all this history, plus rather a lot more, an order was made. AFAIK, if this was not a one-off case, there would have been very few others.
It goes back to my last paragraph, as Boogie's post says also. Penny has to decide to be effective herself.
If you have a beef with how threads in AS are being run, that's a Styx matter and not a Hell one. I will direct this latest outpouring of wailing and teeth-gnashing to the appropriate eyes. If they have further comments, there'll be a Styx thread opened up.
DT
HH
The thread was for minor grievances and short moans were fine.
Please drop further comments on this AS thread on anything to do with this topic as of now.
New whines suiting original purpose of things are fine. Just nothing more on this.
Thank you all.
Now, I have an ingrown toenail...
Lothlorien, AS Host.
This thread will remain open (unless it becomes a complete car-crash, of course).
DT
HH
Because I want to respond to @Golden Key
Several points - @Penny S has not been directing her efforts in the right directions. That's the cause of much of the ire here. Penny S cannot get people to act on D's behalf unless D requests that help. All Penny S can do is request help for herself. This is the UK, there is a lot more in place if you approach the right people for the right help. Lots of us are working and/or living within the same restraints.
I have been irritated by many of the posts from Penny S inveighing against various support agencies, because those agencies are doing their job. What Penny S wants them to do is often something else, out of their remit. And it's not fair slagging off various people publicly for doing what they should be just because you want it to be something else.