An equivalent amount of liberalism to what? The URC or the CofE. I would say 'yes' to CofE and 'No' to URC. The URC like the Scottish Episcopal Church is more liberal on the whole than their sister national denomination across the border. The CofS is a broad church in much the same way as the CofE.
The churches in the CofS tend to be more conservative the west and north* of Scotland. Churches in the South and East tend to be more liberal. The reasons are buried deep in history and there are always exceptions.
*excluding Shetland and Orkney who do not obey these generalisations as far as I can tell.
I didn't mention the CoE anywhere in my comment, so confused as to how I could have meant them. I meant a similar level of liberalism to the URC.
The churches in the CofS tend to be more conservative the west and north* of Scotland. Churches in the South and East tend to be more liberal. The reasons are buried deep in history and there are always exceptions.
*excluding Shetland and Orkney who do not obey these generalisations as far as I can tell.
I once confused a CofS Minister in Shetland for a Norwegian Lutheran pastor. In fairness, he was leading a service for some Norwegians.
More relevantly, my impression of Orkney and Shetland was that they were almost entirely free of the grimmer forms of Highland Calvinism (although I naturally worshipped with the Piskies). I know that Orkney and Shetland have a proud tradition of political liberalism, with the constituency voting consistently for the Liberal Party and then the Lib Dems even at times when virtually nobody else was.
And, if that's not enough to make one love them, they make some fine whisky (or Orkney) and gin (on Shetland).
An equivalent amount of liberalism to what? The URC or the CofE. I would say 'yes' to CofE and 'No' to URC. The URC like the Scottish Episcopal Church is more liberal on the whole than their sister national denomination across the border. The CofS is a broad church in much the same way as the CofE.
The churches in the CofS tend to be more conservative the west and north* of Scotland. Churches in the South and East tend to be more liberal. The reasons are buried deep in history and there are always exceptions.
*excluding Shetland and Orkney who do not obey these generalisations as far as I can tell.
I didn't mention the CoE anywhere in my comment, so confused as to how I could have meant them. I meant a similar level of liberalism to the URC.
Well, in which case you are wrong both currently and historically. As I said CofS is a broad church like the CofE. It has conservatives, it has liberals, slightly different style of both. The CofS has less Charismatic Evangelical and more Conservative Christians (strict Reformed theology which would make Moore College embarrassed and some I really cannot call Evangelical). The shared inheritance is the government and the style of worship in both the URC and CofS reflect their Reformed background.
I have used liberal and conservative above but those terms have a slightly different meaning in a Reformed context. I can best illustrate this by what I see as the two types of traditional liberal within the URC. There is the magisterial liberal, who would hold quite distinctly to traditional liturgical practice within worship, draw on Calvin's Eucharistic theology, a solid emphasis corporate understanding of the Bible and preaching but also be pretty liberal on social issues. Then there are radical liberals who are informal in worship practices, are often clearly Zwinglian in Eucharistic Theology, a strong emphasis on the individuals reading of the Bible and devotion but would also hold from Anabaptist value of personal freedom within religion and thus be liberal in the sense of acceptance of difference. If these sound odd mixes that is because you are working in a different tradition.
I didn't mention the CoE anywhere in my comment, so confused as to how I could have meant them. I meant a similar level of liberalism to the URC.
In that case, you are generally mistaken. The URC in Scotland appears to me to be considerably more liberal than the average Church of Scotland presence. And the Scottish Episcopal Church, yet again, more liberal still, potentially, though by no means universally, with its acceptance of Same-sex Marriage.
As Jengie Jon pointed out there is a broader spectrum in the Church of Scotland, but more liberal values are reflected in the URC.
My experience of the CofS in Orkney compared to Oban a few years ago was that the minister on Orkney was far more fundamentalist preaching hell fire and damnation.
My experience of the CofS in Orkney compared to Oban a few years ago was that the minister on Orkney was far more fundamentalist preaching hell fire and damnation.
I've been to St Olaf's in Kirkwall one time and the preaching must have been pretty inoffensive as I mostly remember the robed choir and the huge pillars.
I went to St Magnus and knew what we were getting from the service sheet; it was all based around Samuel, if I remember correctly. The hymn choices were pretty indicative.
I went to St Magnus and knew what we were getting from the service sheet; it was all based around Samuel, if I remember correctly. The hymn choices were pretty indicative.
Jengie and Anselmina - thanks for the correction and information, both very interesting. The emphasis on the Bible within the URC is something I had encountered and I found rather perplexing from an Anglican point of view given the particular context this was in, which was very socially liberal at least. I can see that there would be less of a charismatic influence on the CoS and more of a conservative one. Out of interest, is there a charismatic influence within the SEC at all?
I went to St Magnus and knew what we were getting from the service sheet; it was all based around Samuel, if I remember correctly. The hymn choices were pretty indicative.
Yikes. I've been there, but it wasn't that bad at that particular service. Duly noted.
Jengie and Anselmina - thanks for the correction and information, both very interesting. The emphasis on the Bible within the URC is something I had encountered and I found rather perplexing from an Anglican point of view given the particular context this was in, which was very socially liberal at least. I can see that there would be less of a charismatic influence on the CoS and more of a conservative one. Out of interest, is there a charismatic influence within the SEC at all?
All the bits of the SEC I'm familiar with are in the Affirming Catholicism region of the Anglican spectrum. There are a few large churches that were late joiners that have maintained a more protestant (and very conservative) feel but I couldn't say where they fell in the charismatic/evangelical/traditional low church scheme of things.
My bishop self identifies as Charismatic Anglo-Catholic. He was previously vicar of a church in West London which presumably accommodated this combination. Photos of that church reveal a contemporary catholic altar and sanctuary (in the non-US sense) and microphones and music stands of a praise band.
Indeed, if it’s the bishop who was Vicar of St. Joseph the Worker that is a perfectly fair description of his former parish as I knew it in the early 90s.
Yes, I should have made my question clearer but I was wondering if there was any charismatic influence including charismatic catholic influence. There are definitely charismatic Aff Caths in England!
Indeed, if it’s the bishop who was Vicar of St. Joseph the Worker that is a perfectly fair description of his former parish as I knew it in the early 90s.
There used to be a couple of charismaticky places in the SEC in the "00s." One was Trinity, Aberdeen which was on a slightly featureless housing estate, though that might have been Evangelical trying to sound charismatic. There was another church in Musselburgh or Leith that I didn't like the sound of, and I reached the conclusion they were probably Charismatic-lite.
All the bits of the SEC I'm familiar with are in the Affirming Catholicism region of the Anglican spectrum. There are a few large churches that were late joiners that have maintained a more protestant (and very conservative) feel but I couldn't say where they fell in the charismatic/evangelical/traditional low church scheme of things.
My experience of the SEC is a bit of a cultural desert for me. On my somewhat limited experience it is either decidedly catholic, and the few Low Churches are so low that it is almost painful. The only two places I found really comfortable were St John's, Perth, and St James (I think), Aberdeen. I guess the MOTR folks in Scotland support the 'Moderate' end of the Kirk.
ACNA around here is nearly always what I think of as modern US Low Church, which to me is MOTR with modern/bad music. It leans praise band, Rite II, and alb and stole - chasuble if you are lucky - but with Bishop Guernsey the big cheese around here you don't get lucky very often. I suspect the ACNA 2019 BCP will be received with rapture around here,
"Presbie, presbie, dinna bend
Want to sit on man's chief end."
I have a friend whose father was a rock-ribbed Scots Presbyterian; she came to church with me once, but told me indignantly that her father had told her not to kneel to anyone. "Not even God?" I asked. The answer was a fierce shake of the head. Well, all righty, then.
Coming from a 50% Scots Presbyterian background, and here I'm guessing, it was a "Stand before your God" as in standing for judgement. But without a hint of "popery".
This is equally just a guess but it could be something quite different. In Reformed circles, there is quite an emphasis of the Church as the New Jerusalem. This is held to be a place where the hierarchical behaviours of the world no longer apply. I am used to milder forms where often a person status within the congregation does not reflect their status in wider society. It is common for congregations to esteem someone highly who has very low status outside the setting. I have come across citations of men in conservative Presbyterian churches not holding doors open for their wives when in Church although they would do it in everyday life. I can see how the leveller instinct, that is somehow retained, can lead to the idea that in the New Jerusalem nobody bows to another and so you do not do it in church either.
Comments
I didn't mention the CoE anywhere in my comment, so confused as to how I could have meant them. I meant a similar level of liberalism to the URC.
I once confused a CofS Minister in Shetland for a Norwegian Lutheran pastor. In fairness, he was leading a service for some Norwegians.
More relevantly, my impression of Orkney and Shetland was that they were almost entirely free of the grimmer forms of Highland Calvinism (although I naturally worshipped with the Piskies). I know that Orkney and Shetland have a proud tradition of political liberalism, with the constituency voting consistently for the Liberal Party and then the Lib Dems even at times when virtually nobody else was.
And, if that's not enough to make one love them, they make some fine whisky (or Orkney) and gin (on Shetland).
Well, in which case you are wrong both currently and historically. As I said CofS is a broad church like the CofE. It has conservatives, it has liberals, slightly different style of both. The CofS has less Charismatic Evangelical and more Conservative Christians (strict Reformed theology which would make Moore College embarrassed and some I really cannot call Evangelical). The shared inheritance is the government and the style of worship in both the URC and CofS reflect their Reformed background.
I have used liberal and conservative above but those terms have a slightly different meaning in a Reformed context. I can best illustrate this by what I see as the two types of traditional liberal within the URC. There is the magisterial liberal, who would hold quite distinctly to traditional liturgical practice within worship, draw on Calvin's Eucharistic theology, a solid emphasis corporate understanding of the Bible and preaching but also be pretty liberal on social issues. Then there are radical liberals who are informal in worship practices, are often clearly Zwinglian in Eucharistic Theology, a strong emphasis on the individuals reading of the Bible and devotion but would also hold from Anabaptist value of personal freedom within religion and thus be liberal in the sense of acceptance of difference. If these sound odd mixes that is because you are working in a different tradition.
In that case, you are generally mistaken. The URC in Scotland appears to me to be considerably more liberal than the average Church of Scotland presence. And the Scottish Episcopal Church, yet again, more liberal still, potentially, though by no means universally, with its acceptance of Same-sex Marriage.
As Jengie Jon pointed out there is a broader spectrum in the Church of Scotland, but more liberal values are reflected in the URC.
I've been to St Olaf's in Kirkwall one time and the preaching must have been pretty inoffensive as I mostly remember the robed choir and the huge pillars.
St Magnus, thank you. I misremembered.
All the bits of the SEC I'm familiar with are in the Affirming Catholicism region of the Anglican spectrum. There are a few large churches that were late joiners that have maintained a more protestant (and very conservative) feel but I couldn't say where they fell in the charismatic/evangelical/traditional low church scheme of things.
Indeed!
I have heard another version:
"Presbie, presbie, dinna bend
Want to sit on man's chief end."
I have a friend whose father was a rock-ribbed Scots Presbyterian; she came to church with me once, but told me indignantly that her father had told her not to kneel to anyone. "Not even God?" I asked. The answer was a fierce shake of the head. Well, all righty, then.
Take care, Ross.