This whole argument started from one posting on a Hell thread, not addressed at anyone, in a verbatim report, marked by quotation marks. ...
...for which I have repeatedly said I was wrong.
I know you have and for which I have thanked you. But the starting point seems to have missed by those who have taken this particular ball and run with it.
@Curiosity killed, do you truly not see any difference between obeying a rule handed down by an authority (i.e. Ship's Admin stating that XYZ is no longer permitted aboard this Ship) and deciding for yourself that, because XYZ upsets someone you care about, you won't engage in XYZ in situations involving that individual? Especially since you also retain the freedom to decide otherwise? And you can make this decision over and over, and decide differently each time on a case-by-case basis?
Where am I saying I have a problem with this personally? Before these two threads I've never previously used the word on the Ship. Here I've been using the words under discussion in full because elision and euphemism do not lead to clarity.
What I am saying is that any decision Shipmates in general are expected to make is unworkable because any n00b Brit starting a Hell thread is not necessarily going to know that there is a Pond difference here, and should they start an invective-filled rant, as is so often demonstrated on here, they are likely to employ a commonly used swearword in the UK. And to be met with fury from those who think that word should be eschewed and that this has been agreed.
@Curiosity killed, do you truly not see any difference between obeying a rule handed down by an authority (i.e. Ship's Admin stating that XYZ is no longer permitted aboard this Ship) and deciding for yourself that, because XYZ upsets someone you care about, you won't engage in XYZ in situations involving that individual? Especially since you also retain the freedom to decide otherwise? And you can make this decision over and over, and decide differently each time on a case-by-case basis?
Except we've been told, as Curiosity's quotes show, that we must never decide differently.
Oh, for pity's sake. Who is telling you this? Someone in authority? What will the consequences be if you disregard these requests (or, since you seem to see them that way, demands)? None, except that (since you now know that your use of XYZ offends so-and-so) so-and-so may be upset, perhaps call you to hell, or leave the thread, or the Ship, or who-knows.
If, on the other hand, there's an actual ban on XYZ, you risk being planked when you use XYZ.
These threads are public. There's no way of knowing who reads this stuff, who is offended by certain language, etc. None of us can know when we give offense (and it's sadly likely that most of us have done so at some point) until or unless someone tells us so.
So let's say you're at a party with a couple of dozen other people. You find yourself in conversation with a subset of 3-4 of these folks. You're telling a story and use the c-word. One of your subset says, "Sorry, but find that word very offensive; could you not use it?"
It's interesting that I have used said word a few times here, and nobody raised a peep. I think my cunts arrive with an extra dollop of bonhomie and well, charm.
What I am saying is that any decision Shipmates in general are expected to make is unworkable because any n00b Brit starting a Hell thread is not necessarily going to know that there is a Pond difference here, and should they start an invective-filled rant, as is so often demonstrated on here, they are likely to employ a commonly used swearword in the UK. And to be met with fury from those who think that word should be eschewed and that this has been agreed.
But I am not suggesting that "Shipmates in general" make some collective decision. As you correctly point out, that would be entirely unworkable. We're individuals (witness our varied reactions to the word under discussion). We post, and respond to posts, as individuals. What I am suggesting is much simpler than trying to jerry-rig some patchwork sub rosa nonofficial "convention" that Shipmates en masse agree to avoid some particular word. You're right; that's ridiculous, impossible, unworkable, and cannot happen.
Here's what I am suggesting:
I'm participating in some thread or other. I post something which another poster on that thread (call him Wilbur) finds offensive. Wilbur has options: (A) let my offense slide and say nothing; (B) put me on notice, either on the thread or by PM, that he finds my post offensive and/or (C) request that I cease whatever offended him; (D) skip intervening steps and call me to Hell; (E) complain in Styx about my appalling multiple transgressions of assorted Commandments, etc. etc.
About (A) I can do nothing, as I'm unaware that Wilbur's offended. About (B) I can apologize, perhaps also expressing surprise that Wilbur was offended, as whatever-it-was never rates a raised eyebrow in my neck of the woods, but acknowledging that WIlbur's are raised. About (C), I can either comply with Wilbur's request or not; if I think Wilbur's a knucklehead, maybe I won't, and maybe I'll say so. If, on the other hand, I hope to keep the discussion on track, probably I'll comply for the duration of that discussion / thread. About (D), I can follow Wilbur to Hell and try to defend myself. And so on.
It's possible that on some future thread where Wilbur is also a participant, I'll forget about his sensitivity and re-offend him. We can then move through these dance steps again. It's also possible I'll recall Wilbur's sore spot, and take care not to bash into it.
In short, all I'm suggesting is that Shipmates do pretty much what we already do, as individuals, not en masse, only perhaps a tad more mindfully of one another's sensitivities.
Except we've been told, as Curiosity's quotes show, that we must never decide differently.
Oh, for pity's sake. Who is telling you this? Someone in authority? What will the consequences be if you disregard these requests (or, since you seem to see them that way, demands)? ... What's your response?
Are we in Hell? Oh, good: I can, then, without breaking any Commandments, observe that, in my experience with that Shipmate, there will be no consequences of any kind, because he's a bit of a bully, and seems never to have doubted his own absolute rightness in anything he's ever done, thought, or written. He will blow right through the entire range of possible consequences and emerge on the other side convinced of his own infallibility and the abject wronger-than-a-wrong-thing-that-is-wrong-ness of all those who disagree in any respect. Bless his heart.
@Ohher the quotes below are all saying, in various forms, that either cunt should be censored, that people should refrain from using it and it should be avoided. That's just from this thread, not including the Styx thread.
@Curiosity killed, please let this idea of a desire to ban or censor this or any word go. Only one of the quotes you provided used the word “censor,” and in context it clearly means “self-censor.” Every other example was about the speaker/writer choosing not to use the word as a matter of courtesy. (And the quote you provided from me noted that there may be times use of the word can’t be avoided.). That is not a ban. That is not censoring. And nowhere did anyone ask for some “enforceable” rule.
This whole argument started from one posting on a Hell thread, not addressed at anyone, in a verbatim report, marked by quotation marks. If that usage is not allowed, then when can the word be used? Because if that is beyond the pale, then it looks like never.
FWIW, as I noted in that thread, I did not read it as a verbatim quote, quotation marks not withstanding. I readily accepted that it was a verbatim quote when others said they read it that way, and when KarlLB said that’s what it was. But it wasn’t clear to me from the post itself. I read the quotation marks as scare or sneer quotes, as though Karl was saying something akin to “that could put you in what could be called a ‘what kind of idiot are you’ zone”—in other words, as a name he was giving it, not something that had been shouted at him.
These threads are public. There's no way of knowing who reads this stuff, who is offended by certain language, etc. None of us can know when we give offense (and it's sadly likely that most of us have done so at some point) until or unless someone tells us so.
So let's say you're at a party with a couple of dozen other people. You find yourself in conversation with a subset of 3-4 of these folks. You're telling a story and use the c-word. One of your subset says, "Sorry, but find that word very offensive; could you not use it?"
What's your response?
I think that your first paragraph answers your second. Because these threads are public, the situation where there’s a little group of 3-4 people having a quiet conversation is never analogous. Any conversation here is more like an on-stage debate with an audience, where any audience member can climb up onto the stage at any point. The only conversation that ever happens in private “in the wings” is a PM or the Admins backstage.
Hence @Curiosity killed’s point that a polite request of refraining from using the word in question is pissing in the wind. I mean, I’ve refrained from using it on this thread (though I t@ke the p01nt that c3n50ring is sl1ght1y fut1le), but let’s face it, @Rossweisse ‘s request has indirectly led to the word in question getting much more air time, not less, even from some people objecting to its use (which I admit confuses me).
Are we in Hell? Oh, good: I can, then, without breaking any Commandments, observe that, in my experience with that Shipmate, there will be no consequences of any kind,
Wait, did you just gutlessly try to re-instigate your vendetta against @KarlLB in the middle of a thread that only exists because you tripped all over yourself to call him out on some nothingsauce bullshit?
Nothingsauce Bullshit.
Seriously: point to a single person who is actually demonstrably in favour of the wanton usage of the word cunt? There isn't a single fucking one. All we have are people who want to be conscientiously polite arguing with people who want to be conscientiously mindful of limitations. The only reason it continues is because of how nearly completely everyone agrees.
And the very genesis, the nominal target your unnecessary muttering, itself is perhaps the limited use case they all tend to agree is actually acceptable: a direct quote not aimed at anyone else.
KarlBS is hardly anyone's favourite poster; he's a crusty unnecessary genital of a person. And I recognize that you guys have history making things feel polarizing. But in this case, @Rossweisse, you are both the instigator and in the wrong.
@Nick Tamen we have already agreed that you were under a misapprehension on the Styx thread. The problem is that any request to self-censor/not use a word/refrain from using a word/however you want to phrase it, is a request for certain words not to be used which is effectively a ban on certain words. And having just spent some time looking on likely threads, I suspect this is already happening.
@Rossweisse I think you're going to have to prove that anyone is using particular words frequently if you're going to accuse them. For the record, with a quick look at various likely threads: UK and Australian politics threads in Hell, the most recent Brexit thread, I found that cunt was used as follows:
KarlLB two uses on the Share the Road thread here in April 2018 and here on June 5 2019 both in quote marks, both reporting verbatim insults he hears.
Alex Cockell and Schroedingers Cat both on the Treeza Rant thread, one just using the word as an insult, the other referring to a politician.
Dark Knight here and here referring to Australian politicians on the Another Australian Politician thread.
I have a lot of sympathy for @Ohher and @Huia (agreed: awesome) and the other women who raised this issue, and I've tried to avoid or censor the word in question for that reason, because they're on this thread. But there is a bigger picture, of which plenty of women and men have pointed out the nuances.
No, you knee-walking fuckwit, the implication is that *I* don't matter.
I use cunt whan I am in high dudgeon on social media and here. I think I've used it in real life because I have been passionate, but also, often, by way of cameraderie. The meaning very much depends on context. I feel like I wouldn't call a woman a cunt unless she was a close mate, or a Nazi.
I think for people my age, the Flying Circus skit in the early seventies, where Idle says words to the effect of 'He's such a silly bunt' means that we were saying it to each other in the primary school playground and laughing, along with 'Queens Bollege Bainbridge' and other silly phrases from the sketch. The sketch is about a bloke who can't say the letter c, and uses b instead. We used Python to bond, and we still do, even if it is a bit passe. It can be a fun and funny word or phrase to use because of this association.
People who I enjoy interacting with see the word differently, and I'm not going to use it on the Ship other than in these types of threads. These people are from different backgrounds and include my wife.
I have some issues with the whole thing, and when I am out and about I often have to stop myself from pointing out that x-person used it, or y-person used it. At a performance before I went away, Hannah Gadsby did this whole thing about how restrictive things were in LA, and she couldn't be herself and it was such a relief to be playing to a crowd where if she yelled cunt people wouldn't recoil in horror. Maybe Hannah can say cunt, and people don't think she's a mysoginist arsehole. But I don't think she was saying that. I think she was having a whinge about how prudish and restrictive American culture can be, even in the entertainment industry.
KarlLB can be a dipstick at times, Rossweisse can also come across as all hoity-toity and know-it-all - 'I'm superior because I like opera, I prefer the stiletto of sarcasm to the bludgeon of obscenity wielded by you unwashed oiks ...'
Wow, that’s the second-worst thing I’ve ever been called on the Ship.*
Look, mate. For you the life lesson of C*ntgate should have been straightforward. If you want to lecture people on not being offensive, then don’t be needlessly offensive yourself. It’s that simple.
* Spiffy once called me a bad friend on a thread about Glee (the TV show). That still hurts slightly more.
--I think it's ok for men to speak up in support of women. It's not ok to try to drown us out or take the wheel of the conversation. I don't think MT did anything wrong.
I confess that I tend to be surprised when a man speaks up for women, 'cause I don't run into that often. I'm happy, but I also mistrust him--ISTM men openly supporting women often have an agenda of their own.
In all my many years on the Ship, I've never detected MT's support of women to be anything but support of women.
--I don't use the c-word, ever. If I had to quote it, I'd paraphrase with a euphemism. I don't use the male-anatomy insults, either. I rarely use "b**ch". NOTE: This isn't saying how great I am--just that this is my particular assortment of "don't use" words related to anatomy and gender.
I also don't use the n-word, ever, and I strongly believe that the c-word is every bit as bad. Sometimes, people forget--or don't realize--just how badly women and girls are treated all the time, even in first-world countries. It's so pervasive that it hides in plain site.
I don't use "ba****d", because it does still carry the original meaning, and I don't want to hurt people whose parents didn't happen to be married.
--Someone suggested upthread that Shipmates who don't want the c-word used are ignoring that *they* might be asked not to use a word. Respectfully, I think we know that.
Over the years, there've been all sorts of discussions, among all sorts of Shipmates, about use of particular words, expressions, stereotypes, and ideas, including "bad" words and Pond differences--**including** the c-word.
A few of us periodically speak up against its use. Never does much good, in the long term. So we let it slide, until we're ready to try again.
I admit I'm periodically shocked by the use and seeming acceptance of "bad" words in other places, particularly the UK and Oz. Here, I've worked in a variety of jobs with a variety of people, and I've rarely run into anyone who swears extensively all the time. When people do use bad words, it's usually in anger or surprise, or for shock/joke value.
--Those of us who ask that the c-word not be used aren't being precious, whiny, or politically correct. We're just asking Shipmates to please refrain from using a very painful and insulting word that can easily be avoided.
--If you avoid racial and religious insults already, then please just add the c-word to the list.
The ‘religious insults’ bit of your post is especially interesting @Golden Key.
I’m sure @Curiosity killed ‘s excellent detective work will prove me wrong, but I’ve never seen any religiously ‘inspired’ insults or curses on the Ship.
No real surprise there - but it does demonstrate how easy it is to filter our written words.
@Nick Tamen we have already agreed that you were under a misapprehension on the Styx thread. The problem is that any request to self-censor/not use a word/refrain from using a word/however you want to phrase it, is a request for certain words not to be used which is effectively a ban on certain words. And having just spent some time looking on likely threads, I suspect this is already happening.
...
If you say stuff like that in the Styx, the board for people who want "technical help, have a question or a bright idea about the forums ...", it looks like you're asking for an explanation of Ship's policy and looking to change it. We're going to answer accordingly.
Agreed, with regards to speaking up for @Ohher, @Rossweisse etc. No problem at all with that. @Nick Tamen also said similar things with respect and clarity. And I too don't doubt @mousethief 's motives at all.
Two howevers, though:
Firstly, the hypocrisy of someone who is quick on the trigger with insults and strong language, and who often initiates or escalates conflict telling people they should watch their language really rankles. Which is why I pointed it out - as clearly and non-aggressively as I could. The result? He calls me a "knee-walking fuckwit". This discussion isn't just about women - it's about offensiveness in general, and on that, I'm not sorry I called him out, because although he's a thoughtful and insightful Shipmate whom I value highly, on this, he's an offensive hypocrite.
I appreciate the good intention behind the thread, but I’m totally unhappy about the way women’s voices are being ignored or sidelined if they’re not saying the “right thing”.
I can honestly say this is the first time I’ve felt my arguments are being dismissed because I’m the wrong sort of women voicing a contrary opinion to a bloke on the Ship rather than because they’re crap.
Please, male posters, tell us again what the problem is and how it needs to be fixed. And, when we disagree, there’s no need to listen to us or acknowledge our right to hold a different POV. Just tell us again. And again. We’re bound to agree with you eventually.
...
But, as you seem to be struggling to understand, would it help if one of the Male Crew members said it instead of me or @Ruth?
ISTM there's more going on with regards to how a bunch of other women feel this is going.
We started with a challenge by @Rossweisse to a reported comment, in quotation remarks, not addressed to anyone, on a Hell thread, which is pretty much the situation that seems the least provocative use possible. From there we had @NicoleMR adding her comments to the thread. Rossweisse has since said that this was an incorrect challenge.
Since the discussions started @Ohher and @Golden Key have joined in the repeated requests that Shipmates refrain from using a word that is only occasionally used now, it was used more in the past. With the support of @Nick Tamen and the rather more dubious support of @mousethief. On this thread Nick, Rossweisse and Ohher have agreed that a ban is unfeasible. I am describing Mousethief's support as somewhat dubious as his opening thread and continued use of abusive language on a thread challenging the use of abusive language isn't the most helpful thing he can do. Nor is his continued ignoring and abuse of those women who have argued against a ban.
@Huia has been cited as someone for whom the word should be avoided and has said
I didn't write my experience to gag people, I wrote it because that is my experience of how that word was used against me, why I hate it. I don't expect, for example, KLB not to use that word when reporting on words motorist with a sense of entitlement used against him.
Of those arguing that a ban is unfeasible, @Doublethink, @fineline, @Tubbs, @anoesis, @Anselmina and I are women and have been systematically ignored and abused by mousethief. So colour me unimpressed by arguments that this is all about supporting women.
The way I see it, if every usage of the word is going to end up in a five-page hell thread, we’re already well on the way to a ban, because who has the energy for that? Especially if the argument is going to be “we don’t use that word around here”.
Also everyone is able to read every thread. I don’t see how not using it around certain people is supposed to work.
The way I see it, if every usage of the word is going to end up in a five-page hell thread, we’re already well on the way to a ban, because who has the energy for that? Especially if the argument is going to be “we don’t use that word around here”.
Also everyone is able to read every thread. I don’t see how not using it around certain people is supposed to work.
I will not be hosting crusades in Hell. I trust that is abundantly clear.
The way I see it, if every usage of the word is going to end up in a five-page hell thread, we’re already well on the way to a ban, because who has the energy for that? Especially if the argument is going to be “we don’t use that word around here”.
Also everyone is able to read every thread. I don’t see how not using it around certain people is supposed to work.
I will not be hosting crusades in Hell. I trust that is abundantly clear.
Attempts to unofficially enforce a ban on individual words across the boards are likely to fall foul of C1/C5/C8.
Firstly, the hypocrisy of someone who is quick on the trigger with insults and strong language, and who often initiates or escalates conflict telling people they should watch their language really rankles.
Firstly, yes, so I'm a hypocrite. And you leverage this to avoid talking about my points.
Secondly, I have tried to reinforce the points of (at least) two women on here who have ASKED for people to stop using the word. Not TOLD them to stop using the word.
Thirdly, you are still making the whole thing about me, and not the painful lived experience of the women I am (woefully inadequately, clearly) trying to defend.
Fourthly, the argument "Well people say a lot of other words on the ship, why should this word be any different?" has already been answered more than once.
Firstly, yes, so I'm a hypocrite. And you leverage this to avoid talking about my points.
Not good enough, and, if anyone's avoiding it's painfully obvious it's you. But pointing that out is apparently making the whole thing about you. So, I've said what I have to say, and I'll leave it there. FYI, I know this is Hell and all, but what you called me was, IMO, uncalled for and hurtful, considering we've generally got on pretty well over the years.
Secondly, I have tried to reinforce the points of (at least) two women on here who have ASKED for people to stop using the word. Not TOLD them to stop using the word.
You know I've taken that on board from the start, right, and avoided using the word or at least censored it every time on this thread? And I've not even been part of the asked/told part of the discussion (I can see both sides, tbh).
Fourthly, the argument "Well people say a lot of other words on the ship, why should this word be any different?" has already been answered more than once.
Not the argument I've made. I'm for less abuse on the Ship, not more. But I'm also for freedom of expression, I know Hell is important as a venting zone, and I'm aware that trying to (even get people to self-) censor any word is, in practice, futile, especially given the cultural differences. But @Curiosity killed, @Tubbs, @Ruth, @Doublethink, @RooK etc. have made those points better than I can.
Are we in Hell? Oh, good: I can, then, without breaking any Commandments, observe that, in my experience with that Shipmate, there will be no consequences of any kind, because he's a bit of a bully, and seems never to have doubted his own absolute rightness in anything he's ever done, thought, or written. He will blow right through the entire range of possible consequences and emerge on the other side convinced of his own infallibility and the abject wronger-than-a-wrong-thing-that-is-wrong-ness of all those who disagree in any respect. Bless his heart.
I think you have chosen an inappropriate target for your ire. I don't have any strong opinions about KarlLB one way or another, but I think I have a pretty keen nose for bullying and misogyny, and KarlLB is not a poster I would have identified as party to those. YMobviouslyV.
However, from statements such as "will blow right through the entire range of possible consequences and emerge on the other side convinced of his own infallibility and the abject wronger-than-a-wrong-thing-that-is-wrong-ness of all those who disagree in any respect" I am starting to get a strong whiff of projection from you.
@Nick Tamen we have already agreed that you were under a misapprehension on the Styx thread.
And yet you express surprise that anything was said to start with since KarlLB was obviously quoting someone verbatim.
The problem is that any request to self-censor/not use a word/refrain from using a word/however you want to phrase it, is a request for certain words not to be used which is effectively a ban on certain words.
No, it’s not. Unless it is imposed by admins, and unless admins have ability to enforce it, it is not a ban.
@Nick Tamen we have already agreed that you were under a misapprehension on the Styx thread. The problem is that any request to self-censor/not use a word/refrain from using a word/however you want to phrase it, is a request for certain words not to be used which is effectively a ban on certain words. And having just spent some time looking on likely threads, I suspect this is already happening.
...
If you say stuff like that in the Styx, the board for people who want "technical help, have a question or a bright idea about the forums ...", it looks like you're asking for an explanation of Ship's policy and looking to change it. We're going to answer accordingly.
It does seem worth noting that the Styx thread was not started by @Rossweisse or any of the others of us who have raised concerns about the use of “the word.” It started by @sionisais, who said he was “reluctant to see [the word] ruled out,” and that he “would like to see it retained in the Ship's vocabulary.”
In the next post, I linked to a previous discussion and said that because of the way the word is perceived differently in the different places, the international nature of the Ship and the potential to derail communication, “I’d avoid it.”
In the next post, @Curiosity killed said “So the question becomes, are we going to have a board-wide enforcement preventing the use of a commonly used swearword in the UK because it is heard as extremely offensive in the USA?” I responded, “Why is that the question? Has anybody suggested "a board-wide enforcement preventing the use" of the C-word?” A little later, Rossweisse posted and confirmed she was not seeking a ban.
Bottom line: Neither the Styx inquiry nor the “ban” discussion were started by the people whose quotes Curiosity killed gathered. And we “agreed” that a ban is “unfeasible” because we were never asking for a ban to start with.
The ‘religious insults’ bit of your post is especially interesting @Golden Key.
I’m sure @Curiosity killed ‘s excellent detective work will prove me wrong, but I’ve never seen any religiously ‘inspired’ insults or curses on the Ship.
No real surprise there - but it does demonstrate how easy it is to filter our written words.
Not an insult as such or a curse, much less a swear word, but even before I saw this post this morning, I was thinking about a recent discussion between, as it happens, Rossweise and me about, of all things, the ban on chasubles in the Anglican Diocese of Sydney. This particular part of the thread started here, where Rossweise said the diocese “sounds misogynistic, intolerant, and utterly Calvinist (which is to say, like my idea of hell).” In a later post she described Calvinism as “an unpleasant (in my view) theology based on the notions of predestination, election, and an unfortunate tendency to believe in Biblical inerrancy.” And she had reasons to feel this way.
As one in the Calvinist tradition, I took issue with what I saw as a bashing of Calvinism (something it seems to me occurs with a some regularity on the Ship). What Rossweise said was personal to me. I and some others explained why we thought her assessment was inaccurate, and I in particular explained why I thought it was an unfair dismissal and disparagement of a large and diverse tradition in Christianity. She responded with a “thank you,” and by saying that she would try to avoid such blanket statements in the future.
That’s pretty much the way of dealing with the issue here that Ohher and I have been suggesting for this situation. Not that everyone will always say “thanks” and offer to do things differently going forward, but we can at least try to talk things out.
Sorry for the very long post. With any luck, I’ve exhausted all I can say on this subject.
Secondly, I have tried to reinforce the points of (at least) two women on here who have ASKED for people to stop using the word. Not TOLD them to stop using the word.
You know I've taken that on board from the start, right, and avoided using the word or at least censored it every time on this thread? And I've not even been part of the asked/told part of the discussion (I can see both sides, tbh).
I queried whether a ban was being pursued in the Styx, because that is the impression I was getting. It feels as if anyone dares to use the word cunt on the Ship it is challenged.
Going back and checking my vague impressions (because I've been challenged on this), this comment by Simon Toad on the Removing Citizenship thread was challenged by Rossweisse and Simon Toad started the Swearing by Using Body Parts thread in response. Since the Swearing by Using Body Parts thread and before this thread and the C word thread in the Styx, the word has been used four times:
When the use of the word is being challenged so vehemently so regularly, it really does feel like an attempt to force a ban. Ironically, the most uses have been on this thread, the C word in the Styx thread and the Swearing by Using Body Parts thread
I confess to being a bit mystified by this, which must be the longest wank-thread that I've witnessed on the Ship. No one is convincing anyone of anything. Yes yes yes.... I understand that this is Hell but it's also pointless. Shouty pointlessness. Dogs chasing tails.
As an aside... There is what is known as "The Proust Questionnaire" (Google it), and one of the questions is "What is your favourite curse word?" I could never (having a broad "vocabulary") quite decide, until one night en route to the bathroom in the dark I stubbed my foot on the dining room table. My first thought: ***********************! My second thought: My God! That's it! The Questionnaire came up in conversation over brunch with a friend of mine and his parents and other relatives. They pressed me, when I told them the story, what the curse was. I said that I would not utter it over such a pleasant brunch. I would do, however, in the dead of night or directed toward the bicyclist who tries to run me down. Lessons: know your audience; read for comprehension.
What I don't understand is the outcry over a simple request to not use one certain word. One word! Yet people are responding as though their most treasured liberties were being stripped away. I don't get it!
What I don't understand is the outcry over a simple request to not use one certain word. One word! Yet people are responding as though their most treasured liberties were being stripped away. I don't get it!
You're hearing echoes of your own outcries. Nobody wants to use the word. All your keening has accomplished is the single greatest concentration of deployments of cunts uttered on the Ship. Congratulations.
I give you the finest word in the English language: bugger as in
the bugger
(you/the) lucky bugger!
silly bugger
poor (wee/little) bugger
don't give a (tupenny) bugger!
don't play silly buggers!
it's a bugger
bugger it
bugger me
bugger all
bugger off
well I'm/I'll be buggered!
I'll be buggered if I'll...
don't bugger about
(that's) just buggering about
well that buggered it up
it's buggered
Yes, Nicole, you're requesting that folks not use one word. So you'll be okay with it if folks just say "retard" instead? There are absolutely no other words you wish people would just not use?
Ruth, people already don't say that word here. That's sort of the point I've been making. People don't use the "n" word, the "r" word, the "k" word, voluntarily. There's no rule against it, people just don't do it. All I'm asking is that they do the same with the "c" word.
What I don't understand is the outcry over a simple request to not use one certain word. One word! Yet people are responding as though their most treasured liberties were being stripped away. I don't get it!
You're hearing echoes of your own outcries. Nobody wants to use the word. All your keening has accomplished is the single greatest concentration of deployments of cunts uttered on the Ship. Congratulations.
I give you the finest word in the English language: bugger as in
the bugger
(you/the) lucky bugger!
silly bugger
poor (wee/little) bugger
don't give a (tupenny) bugger!
don't play silly buggers!
it's a bugger
bugger it
bugger me
bugger all
bugger off
well I'm/I'll be buggered!
I'll be buggered if I'll...
don't bugger about
(that's) just buggering about
well that buggered it up
it's buggered
Ha! Good laugh! Thanks.
It reminds my of the observation/joke about the difference between Americans and Canadians. When suffering an offence, an American responds "Fuck you!" A Canadian responds "Fuck me!" The difference is that the former is retaliatory; the latter disbelief at the offence.
As (yet another) aside, I recommend a book on swearing in Indo-European languages, Your Mother's Tongue. Good for a Circus thread.
Ruth, people already don't say that word here. That's sort of the point I've been making. People don't use the "n" word, the "r" word, the "k" word, voluntarily. There's no rule against it, people just don't do it. All I'm asking is that they do the same with the "c" word.
This.
We tend to have a similar conversation whenever there's a dispute about whether to use a hurtful word. IIRC, things got *very* heated during a discussion over "f**kt*rd".
IMHO, it 's really hard to keep track of all the different things that aren't acceptable to say now--offline or on. It's especially hard in this kind of public format, because *anyone* with access to the Web can read whatever we say--and we can hurt and/or offend any of them, without conscious intent. Yikes.
...And/but...
Part of being around other people is learning there need to be some limits on what you say/do--it's in your best interest. Someone else's free expression could hurt you. If you help create an atmosphere of at least minimal courtesy and mutual respect, that atmosphere helps protect you, too.
ISTM that being mindful with Shipmates should be simpler than worrying about offending anonymous strangers reading our boards, because we're part of the same community and are repeatedly around each other. Use of certain volatile words hurts people **right here**. Using the c-word here hurts Shipmates **right here**.
If you don't use the n-, r-, k-, p-, etc. words here, then don't use the c-word here, either.
If your desire is to reduce the use of the word cunt on the Ship, then challenging it seems to be counterproductive.
Searching back to October 2018, because that's how far the search engine took me back on a page (I was aiming for January), we have occasional use of the word:
Four uses, starting with a quotation on the Atheism is better than your stupid cult thread in Hell, second use here, next two uses in response to that second (and one of that exchange is quoted on the next page) - all in October;
Five uses on the Mr Cheesy You Just have to Interfere thread in November, again in Hell, starting with N0Prophet twice here, gently challenged by KarlLB, and then challenged again by Rossweisse to bring the total up to five;
One use from Lyda quoting KarlLB's put down on the Quotes File;
One use on the Treeza Rant thread in Hell in December 2018 (mentioned earlier);
Then we get to the Removing Citizenship comment that was rolled back here, but still challenged by Rossweisse here, which led to repeated challenges and another 6 uses on that thread, such as Ohher's use here,
that whole derailment sparked the Swearing by Using Female Body Parts thread which thread features the word cunt 119 times (in full, I haven't searched for euphemisms, circumlocutions or elisions).
Since the Swearing by Using Female Body Parts thread it has been used in the four posts I picked up on earlier in the thread:
The two challenges on the Share the Road thread and further discussions have led to many additional uses of the word cunt: 23 times on the C Word thread in the Styx and before this post, 78 times on this thread.
Totalling up the lists above, putting the challenges and threads that spawned from challenges into a separate category, we have had 22 uses of the word on threads various since October, and 226 uses on the threads challenging the use. So it seems that the challenges have led to a ten-fold increase in usage.
Ok, I understand the simple request that people refrain from using a word, and where it comes from. And what follows is definitely NOT about "well, this is why I'll carry on using it anyhow." It's not like I did in the first place (with one exception in a decade on the Ship). But here are my issues with it. Most of these have already been stated on this thread, but maybe it will help to have them all in one place:
#1 It ignores that this is a site that chooses not to censor words. This could be one of those forums where no swearing whatsoever is allowed. But it's not. And for all of us, that means that there are times that we're going to see language that we'd rather not. If it is a case of requesting rather than enforcing, then we're going to have to live with the fact that people are free and entitled to ignore that request, and they might have good reasons.
#2 It puts all the emphasis on the first half of commandment 5. Sometimes the pendulum will swing so that the onus is on "Don't easily offend'. Other times we have to suck it up and choose not to take offense (see #3, context)
#3 It ignores context. I don't want to see anyone calling anyone else on the Ship a 'c***' or a 're****', or a 'f***t**d' or anything else offensive. But context matters. Quoting a word (as @KarlLB did, and @Rossweisse acknowledges, or for that matter, I did on the Brexit thread) is a massively different beast than calling someone else something offensive directly. There's so much nuance to context that making it about using a word or not using a word is too simplistic (see #4).
#4 It oversimplifies offence. Someone can avoid the word in question but say something massively misogynistic with everyday words. The simple word 'it' can be used in a vile way, depersonalising women. A request of "Don't be a sexist asshole", will cover many uses of the c-word (culture dependent), and would have the backing of everyone on this thread, I'd guess (plus, it's there in Commandment 1). But actually, I'll formally submit my request, now, which is that everyone thinks a little harder before being offensive towards any other Shipmate. Hell is an important safety valve, but IMHO there are way too many Shipmates, many of whom I value highly, who are too quick to slam other Shipmates with unnecessary harsh language. And everyone can and will ignore my request as well. Hey ho.
#5 It ignores cultural differences. As has been stated, there is a pond difference. Until now, I honestly had no idea that the word in question was received so differently in Canadian and American cultures. You can persuade all the British people on this thread that they should refrain from ever using a word that they hear and maybe use pretty frequently in society, without the misogynistic overtones. But if we want to be an inclusive place where new British posters don't get immediately jumped on for naive use of language, then ISTM that if we're not going to enforce a no-swearing board (see #1), then there are going to at least be times where the pendulum is going to have to swing to the "don't be easily offended" side.
#6 It ignores human nature. As @Curiosity killed, has noted, the request to refrain from the word in question has led to a tenfold increase in its use. Because people.
So, yeah, I doubt I'll ever use the c-word on the Ship again without censoring it. I have no desire to upset or offend anybody. But, as nice as it would be, a simple request not to use a word turns out to be not so simple. I can't imagine any Shipmate would call another Shipmate the n-word. But the n-word does get used on the Ship occasionally. It'd be nice if no-one ever called anyone else the c-word as well. But, for the reasons above, I don't think it's a practical or maybe even helpful request to simply ask that the c-word doesn't ever get used at all.
Comments
Where am I saying I have a problem with this personally? Before these two threads I've never previously used the word on the Ship. Here I've been using the words under discussion in full because elision and euphemism do not lead to clarity.
What I am saying is that any decision Shipmates in general are expected to make is unworkable because any n00b Brit starting a Hell thread is not necessarily going to know that there is a Pond difference here, and should they start an invective-filled rant, as is so often demonstrated on here, they are likely to employ a commonly used swearword in the UK. And to be met with fury from those who think that word should be eschewed and that this has been agreed.
Oh, for pity's sake. Who is telling you this? Someone in authority? What will the consequences be if you disregard these requests (or, since you seem to see them that way, demands)? None, except that (since you now know that your use of XYZ offends so-and-so) so-and-so may be upset, perhaps call you to hell, or leave the thread, or the Ship, or who-knows.
If, on the other hand, there's an actual ban on XYZ, you risk being planked when you use XYZ.
These threads are public. There's no way of knowing who reads this stuff, who is offended by certain language, etc. None of us can know when we give offense (and it's sadly likely that most of us have done so at some point) until or unless someone tells us so.
So let's say you're at a party with a couple of dozen other people. You find yourself in conversation with a subset of 3-4 of these folks. You're telling a story and use the c-word. One of your subset says, "Sorry, but find that word very offensive; could you not use it?"
What's your response?
But I am not suggesting that "Shipmates in general" make some collective decision. As you correctly point out, that would be entirely unworkable. We're individuals (witness our varied reactions to the word under discussion). We post, and respond to posts, as individuals. What I am suggesting is much simpler than trying to jerry-rig some patchwork sub rosa nonofficial "convention" that Shipmates en masse agree to avoid some particular word. You're right; that's ridiculous, impossible, unworkable, and cannot happen.
Here's what I am suggesting:
I'm participating in some thread or other. I post something which another poster on that thread (call him Wilbur) finds offensive. Wilbur has options: (A) let my offense slide and say nothing; (B) put me on notice, either on the thread or by PM, that he finds my post offensive and/or (C) request that I cease whatever offended him; (D) skip intervening steps and call me to Hell; (E) complain in Styx about my appalling multiple transgressions of assorted Commandments, etc. etc.
About (A) I can do nothing, as I'm unaware that Wilbur's offended. About (B) I can apologize, perhaps also expressing surprise that Wilbur was offended, as whatever-it-was never rates a raised eyebrow in my neck of the woods, but acknowledging that WIlbur's are raised. About (C), I can either comply with Wilbur's request or not; if I think Wilbur's a knucklehead, maybe I won't, and maybe I'll say so. If, on the other hand, I hope to keep the discussion on track, probably I'll comply for the duration of that discussion / thread. About (D), I can follow Wilbur to Hell and try to defend myself. And so on.
It's possible that on some future thread where Wilbur is also a participant, I'll forget about his sensitivity and re-offend him. We can then move through these dance steps again. It's also possible I'll recall Wilbur's sore spot, and take care not to bash into it.
In short, all I'm suggesting is that Shipmates do pretty much what we already do, as individuals, not en masse, only perhaps a tad more mindfully of one another's sensitivities.
FWIW, as I noted in that thread, I did not read it as a verbatim quote, quotation marks not withstanding. I readily accepted that it was a verbatim quote when others said they read it that way, and when KarlLB said that’s what it was. But it wasn’t clear to me from the post itself. I read the quotation marks as scare or sneer quotes, as though Karl was saying something akin to “that could put you in what could be called a ‘what kind of idiot are you’ zone”—in other words, as a name he was giving it, not something that had been shouted at him.
Meanwhile, Ohher hits the nail on the head.
I think that your first paragraph answers your second. Because these threads are public, the situation where there’s a little group of 3-4 people having a quiet conversation is never analogous. Any conversation here is more like an on-stage debate with an audience, where any audience member can climb up onto the stage at any point. The only conversation that ever happens in private “in the wings” is a PM or the Admins backstage.
Hence @Curiosity killed’s point that a polite request of refraining from using the word in question is pissing in the wind. I mean, I’ve refrained from using it on this thread (though I t@ke the p01nt that c3n50ring is sl1ght1y fut1le), but let’s face it, @Rossweisse ‘s request has indirectly led to the word in question getting much more air time, not less, even from some people objecting to its use (which I admit confuses me).
Wait, did you just gutlessly try to re-instigate your vendetta against @KarlLB in the middle of a thread that only exists because you tripped all over yourself to call him out on some nothingsauce bullshit?
Nothingsauce Bullshit.
Seriously: point to a single person who is actually demonstrably in favour of the wanton usage of the word cunt? There isn't a single fucking one. All we have are people who want to be conscientiously polite arguing with people who want to be conscientiously mindful of limitations. The only reason it continues is because of how nearly completely everyone agrees.
And the very genesis, the nominal target your unnecessary muttering, itself is perhaps the limited use case they all tend to agree is actually acceptable: a direct quote not aimed at anyone else.
KarlBS is hardly anyone's favourite poster; he's a crusty unnecessary genital of a person. And I recognize that you guys have history making things feel polarizing. But in this case, @Rossweisse, you are both the instigator and in the wrong.
Thank you for yesterday's synopsis - very helpful!
@Rossweisse I think you're going to have to prove that anyone is using particular words frequently if you're going to accuse them. For the record, with a quick look at various likely threads: UK and Australian politics threads in Hell, the most recent Brexit thread, I found that cunt was used as follows:
No, you knee-walking fuckwit, the implication is that *I* don't matter.
Speaking is doing. Any and all oppressed people groups can tell you about that. ISTM that thinking otherwise is a symptom of privilege.
I think for people my age, the Flying Circus skit in the early seventies, where Idle says words to the effect of 'He's such a silly bunt' means that we were saying it to each other in the primary school playground and laughing, along with 'Queens Bollege Bainbridge' and other silly phrases from the sketch. The sketch is about a bloke who can't say the letter c, and uses b instead. We used Python to bond, and we still do, even if it is a bit passe. It can be a fun and funny word or phrase to use because of this association.
People who I enjoy interacting with see the word differently, and I'm not going to use it on the Ship other than in these types of threads. These people are from different backgrounds and include my wife.
I have some issues with the whole thing, and when I am out and about I often have to stop myself from pointing out that x-person used it, or y-person used it. At a performance before I went away, Hannah Gadsby did this whole thing about how restrictive things were in LA, and she couldn't be herself and it was such a relief to be playing to a crowd where if she yelled cunt people wouldn't recoil in horror. Maybe Hannah can say cunt, and people don't think she's a mysoginist arsehole. But I don't think she was saying that. I think she was having a whinge about how prudish and restrictive American culture can be, even in the entertainment industry.
Move on, there's nothing to see here.
Wow, that’s the second-worst thing I’ve ever been called on the Ship.*
Look, mate. For you the life lesson of C*ntgate should have been straightforward. If you want to lecture people on not being offensive, then don’t be needlessly offensive yourself. It’s that simple.
* Spiffy once called me a bad friend on a thread about Glee (the TV show). That still hurts slightly more.
--I think it's ok for men to speak up in support of women. It's not ok to try to drown us out or take the wheel of the conversation. I don't think MT did anything wrong.
I confess that I tend to be surprised when a man speaks up for women, 'cause I don't run into that often. I'm happy, but I also mistrust him--ISTM men openly supporting women often have an agenda of their own.
In all my many years on the Ship, I've never detected MT's support of women to be anything but support of women.
--I don't use the c-word, ever. If I had to quote it, I'd paraphrase with a euphemism. I don't use the male-anatomy insults, either. I rarely use "b**ch". NOTE: This isn't saying how great I am--just that this is my particular assortment of "don't use" words related to anatomy and gender.
I also don't use the n-word, ever, and I strongly believe that the c-word is every bit as bad. Sometimes, people forget--or don't realize--just how badly women and girls are treated all the time, even in first-world countries. It's so pervasive that it hides in plain site.
I don't use "ba****d", because it does still carry the original meaning, and I don't want to hurt people whose parents didn't happen to be married.
--Someone suggested upthread that Shipmates who don't want the c-word used are ignoring that *they* might be asked not to use a word. Respectfully, I think we know that.
Over the years, there've been all sorts of discussions, among all sorts of Shipmates, about use of particular words, expressions, stereotypes, and ideas, including "bad" words and Pond differences--**including** the c-word.
A few of us periodically speak up against its use. Never does much good, in the long term. So we let it slide, until we're ready to try again.
I admit I'm periodically shocked by the use and seeming acceptance of "bad" words in other places, particularly the UK and Oz. Here, I've worked in a variety of jobs with a variety of people, and I've rarely run into anyone who swears extensively all the time. When people do use bad words, it's usually in anger or surprise, or for shock/joke value.
--Those of us who ask that the c-word not be used aren't being precious, whiny, or politically correct. We're just asking Shipmates to please refrain from using a very painful and insulting word that can easily be avoided.
--If you avoid racial and religious insults already, then please just add the c-word to the list.
Thx,
I’m sure @Curiosity killed ‘s excellent detective work will prove me wrong, but I’ve never seen any religiously ‘inspired’ insults or curses on the Ship.
No real surprise there - but it does demonstrate how easy it is to filter our written words.
If you say stuff like that in the Styx, the board for people who want "technical help, have a question or a bright idea about the forums ...", it looks like you're asking for an explanation of Ship's policy and looking to change it. We're going to answer accordingly.
Agreed, with regards to speaking up for @Ohher, @Rossweisse etc. No problem at all with that. @Nick Tamen also said similar things with respect and clarity. And I too don't doubt @mousethief 's motives at all.
Two howevers, though:
Firstly, the hypocrisy of someone who is quick on the trigger with insults and strong language, and who often initiates or escalates conflict telling people they should watch their language really rankles. Which is why I pointed it out - as clearly and non-aggressively as I could. The result? He calls me a "knee-walking fuckwit". This discussion isn't just about women - it's about offensiveness in general, and on that, I'm not sorry I called him out, because although he's a thoughtful and insightful Shipmate whom I value highly, on this, he's an offensive hypocrite.
Secondly, for Tubbs to post this:
and this
and this
ISTM there's more going on with regards to how a bunch of other women feel this is going.
Since the discussions started @Ohher and @Golden Key have joined in the repeated requests that Shipmates refrain from using a word that is only occasionally used now, it was used more in the past. With the support of @Nick Tamen and the rather more dubious support of @mousethief. On this thread Nick, Rossweisse and Ohher have agreed that a ban is unfeasible. I am describing Mousethief's support as somewhat dubious as his opening thread and continued use of abusive language on a thread challenging the use of abusive language isn't the most helpful thing he can do. Nor is his continued ignoring and abuse of those women who have argued against a ban.
@Huia has been cited as someone for whom the word should be avoided and has said
Of those arguing that a ban is unfeasible, @Doublethink, @fineline, @Tubbs, @anoesis, @Anselmina and I are women and have been systematically ignored and abused by mousethief. So colour me unimpressed by arguments that this is all about supporting women.
As an aside, Everyday Sexism has a good section about how to be an effective male ally.
Also everyone is able to read every thread. I don’t see how not using it around certain people is supposed to work.
I will not be hosting crusades in Hell. I trust that is abundantly clear.
Attempts to unofficially enforce a ban on individual words across the boards are likely to fall foul of C1/C5/C8.
And to be fair, it started with a 4 letter c bomb...
Firstly, yes, so I'm a hypocrite. And you leverage this to avoid talking about my points.
Secondly, I have tried to reinforce the points of (at least) two women on here who have ASKED for people to stop using the word. Not TOLD them to stop using the word.
Thirdly, you are still making the whole thing about me, and not the painful lived experience of the women I am (woefully inadequately, clearly) trying to defend.
Fourthly, the argument "Well people say a lot of other words on the ship, why should this word be any different?" has already been answered more than once.
You know I've taken that on board from the start, right, and avoided using the word or at least censored it every time on this thread? And I've not even been part of the asked/told part of the discussion (I can see both sides, tbh).
Not the argument I've made. I'm for less abuse on the Ship, not more. But I'm also for freedom of expression, I know Hell is important as a venting zone, and I'm aware that trying to (even get people to self-) censor any word is, in practice, futile, especially given the cultural differences. But @Curiosity killed, @Tubbs, @Ruth, @Doublethink, @RooK etc. have made those points better than I can.
I think you have chosen an inappropriate target for your ire. I don't have any strong opinions about KarlLB one way or another, but I think I have a pretty keen nose for bullying and misogyny, and KarlLB is not a poster I would have identified as party to those. YMobviouslyV.
However, from statements such as "will blow right through the entire range of possible consequences and emerge on the other side convinced of his own infallibility and the abject wronger-than-a-wrong-thing-that-is-wrong-ness of all those who disagree in any respect" I am starting to get a strong whiff of projection from you.
I have believed that you are better than this.
No, it’s not. Unless it is imposed by admins, and unless admins have ability to enforce it, it is not a ban.
It does seem worth noting that the Styx thread was not started by @Rossweisse or any of the others of us who have raised concerns about the use of “the word.” It started by @sionisais, who said he was “reluctant to see [the word] ruled out,” and that he “would like to see it retained in the Ship's vocabulary.”
In the next post, I linked to a previous discussion and said that because of the way the word is perceived differently in the different places, the international nature of the Ship and the potential to derail communication, “I’d avoid it.”
In the next post, @Curiosity killed said “So the question becomes, are we going to have a board-wide enforcement preventing the use of a commonly used swearword in the UK because it is heard as extremely offensive in the USA?” I responded, “Why is that the question? Has anybody suggested "a board-wide enforcement preventing the use" of the C-word?” A little later, Rossweisse posted and confirmed she was not seeking a ban.
Bottom line: Neither the Styx inquiry nor the “ban” discussion were started by the people whose quotes Curiosity killed gathered. And we “agreed” that a ban is “unfeasible” because we were never asking for a ban to start with.
Not an insult as such or a curse, much less a swear word, but even before I saw this post this morning, I was thinking about a recent discussion between, as it happens, Rossweise and me about, of all things, the ban on chasubles in the Anglican Diocese of Sydney. This particular part of the thread started here, where Rossweise said the diocese “sounds misogynistic, intolerant, and utterly Calvinist (which is to say, like my idea of hell).” In a later post she described Calvinism as “an unpleasant (in my view) theology based on the notions of predestination, election, and an unfortunate tendency to believe in Biblical inerrancy.” And she had reasons to feel this way.
As one in the Calvinist tradition, I took issue with what I saw as a bashing of Calvinism (something it seems to me occurs with a some regularity on the Ship). What Rossweise said was personal to me. I and some others explained why we thought her assessment was inaccurate, and I in particular explained why I thought it was an unfair dismissal and disparagement of a large and diverse tradition in Christianity. She responded with a “thank you,” and by saying that she would try to avoid such blanket statements in the future.
That’s pretty much the way of dealing with the issue here that Ohher and I have been suggesting for this situation. Not that everyone will always say “thanks” and offer to do things differently going forward, but we can at least try to talk things out.
Sorry for the very long post. With any luck, I’ve exhausted all I can say on this subject.
Sucks to be you then because that's what you're getting.
Then why bring it up?
Going back and checking my vague impressions (because I've been challenged on this), this comment by Simon Toad on the Removing Citizenship thread was challenged by Rossweisse and Simon Toad started the Swearing by Using Body Parts thread in response. Since the Swearing by Using Body Parts thread and before this thread and the C word thread in the Styx, the word has been used four times:
When the use of the word is being challenged so vehemently so regularly, it really does feel like an attempt to force a ban. Ironically, the most uses have been on this thread, the C word in the Styx thread and the Swearing by Using Body Parts thread
As an aside... There is what is known as "The Proust Questionnaire" (Google it), and one of the questions is "What is your favourite curse word?" I could never (having a broad "vocabulary") quite decide, until one night en route to the bathroom in the dark I stubbed my foot on the dining room table. My first thought: ***********************! My second thought: My God! That's it! The Questionnaire came up in conversation over brunch with a friend of mine and his parents and other relatives. They pressed me, when I told them the story, what the curse was. I said that I would not utter it over such a pleasant brunch. I would do, however, in the dead of night or directed toward the bicyclist who tries to run me down. Lessons: know your audience; read for comprehension.
You're hearing echoes of your own outcries. Nobody wants to use the word. All your keening has accomplished is the single greatest concentration of deployments of cunts uttered on the Ship. Congratulations.
I give you the finest word in the English language: bugger as in
the bugger
(you/the) lucky bugger!
silly bugger
poor (wee/little) bugger
don't give a (tupenny) bugger!
don't play silly buggers!
it's a bugger
bugger it
bugger me
bugger all
bugger off
well I'm/I'll be buggered!
I'll be buggered if I'll...
don't bugger about
(that's) just buggering about
well that buggered it up
it's buggered
That hurt! I can't stop laughing you...
It was a late add.
Ha! Good laugh! Thanks.
It reminds my of the observation/joke about the difference between Americans and Canadians. When suffering an offence, an American responds "Fuck you!" A Canadian responds "Fuck me!" The difference is that the former is retaliatory; the latter disbelief at the offence.
As (yet another) aside, I recommend a book on swearing in Indo-European languages, Your Mother's Tongue. Good for a Circus thread.
This.
We tend to have a similar conversation whenever there's a dispute about whether to use a hurtful word. IIRC, things got *very* heated during a discussion over "f**kt*rd".
IMHO, it 's really hard to keep track of all the different things that aren't acceptable to say now--offline or on. It's especially hard in this kind of public format, because *anyone* with access to the Web can read whatever we say--and we can hurt and/or offend any of them, without conscious intent. Yikes.
...And/but...
Part of being around other people is learning there need to be some limits on what you say/do--it's in your best interest. Someone else's free expression could hurt you. If you help create an atmosphere of at least minimal courtesy and mutual respect, that atmosphere helps protect you, too.
ISTM that being mindful with Shipmates should be simpler than worrying about offending anonymous strangers reading our boards, because we're part of the same community and are repeatedly around each other. Use of certain volatile words hurts people **right here**. Using the c-word here hurts Shipmates **right here**.
If you don't use the n-, r-, k-, p-, etc. words here, then don't use the c-word here, either.
Searching back to October 2018, because that's how far the search engine took me back on a page (I was aiming for January), we have occasional use of the word:
Since the Swearing by Using Female Body Parts thread it has been used in the four posts I picked up on earlier in the thread:
The two challenges on the Share the Road thread and further discussions have led to many additional uses of the word cunt: 23 times on the C Word thread in the Styx and before this post, 78 times on this thread.
Totalling up the lists above, putting the challenges and threads that spawned from challenges into a separate category, we have had 22 uses of the word on threads various since October, and 226 uses on the threads challenging the use. So it seems that the challenges have led to a ten-fold increase in usage.
Ok, I understand the simple request that people refrain from using a word, and where it comes from. And what follows is definitely NOT about "well, this is why I'll carry on using it anyhow." It's not like I did in the first place (with one exception in a decade on the Ship). But here are my issues with it. Most of these have already been stated on this thread, but maybe it will help to have them all in one place:
#1 It ignores that this is a site that chooses not to censor words. This could be one of those forums where no swearing whatsoever is allowed. But it's not. And for all of us, that means that there are times that we're going to see language that we'd rather not. If it is a case of requesting rather than enforcing, then we're going to have to live with the fact that people are free and entitled to ignore that request, and they might have good reasons.
#2 It puts all the emphasis on the first half of commandment 5. Sometimes the pendulum will swing so that the onus is on "Don't easily offend'. Other times we have to suck it up and choose not to take offense (see #3, context)
#3 It ignores context. I don't want to see anyone calling anyone else on the Ship a 'c***' or a 're****', or a 'f***t**d' or anything else offensive. But context matters. Quoting a word (as @KarlLB did, and @Rossweisse acknowledges, or for that matter, I did on the Brexit thread) is a massively different beast than calling someone else something offensive directly. There's so much nuance to context that making it about using a word or not using a word is too simplistic (see #4).
#4 It oversimplifies offence. Someone can avoid the word in question but say something massively misogynistic with everyday words. The simple word 'it' can be used in a vile way, depersonalising women. A request of "Don't be a sexist asshole", will cover many uses of the c-word (culture dependent), and would have the backing of everyone on this thread, I'd guess (plus, it's there in Commandment 1). But actually, I'll formally submit my request, now, which is that everyone thinks a little harder before being offensive towards any other Shipmate. Hell is an important safety valve, but IMHO there are way too many Shipmates, many of whom I value highly, who are too quick to slam other Shipmates with unnecessary harsh language. And everyone can and will ignore my request as well. Hey ho.
#5 It ignores cultural differences. As has been stated, there is a pond difference. Until now, I honestly had no idea that the word in question was received so differently in Canadian and American cultures. You can persuade all the British people on this thread that they should refrain from ever using a word that they hear and maybe use pretty frequently in society, without the misogynistic overtones. But if we want to be an inclusive place where new British posters don't get immediately jumped on for naive use of language, then ISTM that if we're not going to enforce a no-swearing board (see #1), then there are going to at least be times where the pendulum is going to have to swing to the "don't be easily offended" side.
#6 It ignores human nature. As @Curiosity killed, has noted, the request to refrain from the word in question has led to a tenfold increase in its use. Because people.
So, yeah, I doubt I'll ever use the c-word on the Ship again without censoring it. I have no desire to upset or offend anybody. But, as nice as it would be, a simple request not to use a word turns out to be not so simple. I can't imagine any Shipmate would call another Shipmate the n-word. But the n-word does get used on the Ship occasionally. It'd be nice if no-one ever called anyone else the c-word as well. But, for the reasons above, I don't think it's a practical or maybe even helpful request to simply ask that the c-word doesn't ever get used at all.