When I was in college, one Easter Sunday the Episcopal chaplain asked a retired priest to assist him. In those days only a priest was allowed to distribute the elements; with the large crowd expected the chaplain wanted help in the distribution. As soon as the chaplain told the priest he wanted help, the man lit up and said, "I know; you want me to preach the sermon." The chaplain didn't have the heart to say no.
Normally, the sermon was about five minutes long; that's what everyone expected. This man preached for forty-five minutes, and no one could follow what he said. Afterwards we speculated that he had written a sermon every Sunday since he retired, and had given us one sentence from each. After everyone had stopped trying to understand, he jolted everyone awake by bellowing the word LOVE.
When I was in college the TEC chaplain asked a retired priest to help him with the Easter service. (In those days only a priest was allowed to distribute the elements.) The chaplain meant he wanted help in distributing the elements, but the priest immediately said, "You want me to preach." The chaplain didn't have the heart to say no, so this man preached.
Although he had been told the sermon should only last five minutes, he preached for forty-five. Afterwards we speculated that since he retired he had written a sermon every Sunday. At this Easter service, he gave us one sentence from each. After everyone had stopped trying to follow it, he suddenly jolted the congregation by bellowing the word LOVE. From then on, everyone struggled to contain their giggles.
Yes @Bishops Finger I agree. That is really, really bad. If there was a Wow button, it would get one.
Was Lovely Wife II present to hear herself being so tactlessly extolled?
IMHO that's even worse than the wedding sermon I mentioned on this thread back in December, though I'm not sure the one that Eutychus mentioned shortly after that doesn't cap it.
I suppose we ought to ask - which Patron Saint was it that he was claiming had brought them together? And were a stand and candles provided and available for people to light at the end of the service? Perhaps your shack could develop a lucrative cult, and English Lisdoonvarna?
I was at an indepedent evangelical church many years ago. They had a visiting student who was asked to preach.
Clearly, he had been around churches where they preached what God told them to preach, so he didn't bother preparing anything. It showed. He rambled on incoherently for 20 minutes or so. Including references to "fe fi fo fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman" (I would explain the context, but I am not sure there was any).
I actually walked out.
Clearly, nobody had told him that people who preach extempore have usually practiced and prepared for hours beforehand.
Yes @Bishops Finger I agree. That is really, really bad. If there was a Wow button, it would get one.
Was Lovely Wife II present to hear herself being so tactlessly extolled?
IMHO that's even worse than the wedding sermon I mentioned on this thread back in December, though I'm not sure the one that Eutychus mentioned shortly after that doesn't cap it.
I suppose we ought to ask - which Patron Saint was it that he was claiming had brought them together? And were a stand and candles provided and available for people to light at the end of the service? Perhaps your shack could develop a lucrative cult, and English Lisdoonvarna?
No, I don't think Lovely Wife (Wife the First was always referred to as 'Dear Wife') was present on that particular sick-making occasion, but she is probably used by now to his fawning...
The Saint referred to was not AFAIK noted for match-making. Without going into too much detail, he was an Evangelist, a Doctor, and (by tradition) an Artist.
On holiday, I once attended a conservative-evangelical community church over Easter and the preacher gave his daily sermons on Zechariah, from Good Friday to Easter Sunday.
As we've moved on to visiting preachers, when I was attending a more charismatic church, we once had a healing service scheduled for Easter Sunday afternoon - by a preacher invited by the church leader who had never heard him speak, but had stayed in the same retreat and had been impressed by his habit of praying for several hours every morning.
The illustration which tied together why he was holding a preaching service on Easter was the famous one where a stream of blood from the cross healed the lady standing under it - yes, he had confused the plot of Ben Hur with the Bible.
When the registers are signed the Priest signs that the couple have been married "according to the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England" so if people have gone off-piste and decided to do their own thing then they have not been so married, the registration is not correct and so, technically, the marriage hasn't taken place.
Random legal question: Is the defect cured by creation of a common law marriage if the couple hold themselves as married for a prescribed length of time?
There is no such thing as a "common law marriage" in the UK. Marital Status (or otherwise) recognised by the UK state is limited to the following
single, never married
single, previous marriage/ civil partnership dissolved
widowed
in a civil partnership
married
You can "hold yourself as married" until you're blue in the face, but if you're not married you're not married, end of. And since "common law" marriage doesn't exist if the ceremony meant to signify the marriage was deficient to the extent that the issuing of a Certificate was for the registrar (priest in the case of a church) to give witness to a falsehood (perjury) then you're not married.
Of course in most cases a Superintendent Registrar will be inclined to be lenient, at least towards the couple, but for the whole business of accurately recording marriages to have any credibility as to the registers being held to be documents of record a SR must be satisfied/ confident that the rules are being adhered to. That is why it is necessary for anyone re-marrying after divorce to produce their Decree Absolute beforehand so that there is evidence that they are free to marry - on the whole bigamy is frowned on!
I organized an interfaith memorial service on the anniversary of 911. I asked each faith group who signed up to come to give a brief introduction and then offer a prayer, a reading, a song, or a piece of art, in memorial for those who had died. All went well. Example the Rabbi said he was from such and such a temple, and that he would be reciting the prayer that Jews say for the dead. He told the words in English and then recited it in Hebrew. The Buddhist, Hindu, Moslem, Jewish, Roman Catholic, Methodist, and others did the same. It was a lovely event. UNTIL The Lutheran representative took to the microphone and introduced herself by explaining for 10 full minutes why Martin Luther had felt the need to leave the Roman Catholic church.
On the first he apparently rambled on for about twenty minutes about the best way to cook a leg of lamb. As far as I know there was no reference to the Lamb of God.
P'haps he fancied himself as a latter day Robert Capon.
Visiting preacher from a US charismatic church, something of a name in certain circles (though I had never heard of him). Speaking at an Elim Pentecostal church in the UK, which had no truck with ‘prosperity gospel’ (no idea what its stance is these days).
Paraphrasing:
“Yes, I have a big house with a pool, and a nice car, and plenty of money. And I’m grateful to God for all these things. They are a blessing from Him. So no, I’m not gonna share them with other people, because that would stop them asking God for their own blessings!”
A service to celebrate the successful launch of a joint-project between many different churches in the area had to include a presentation on the work done by their young people. The work was related, but completely separate from the project.
But no presentation, no more volunteers or money. (TBH, by the time it was all over, everyone else on the project wished they had been told where to go. They were a total nightmare).
A young boy of about 13 was to give the presentation. His older sister accompanied him as he didn't want to do it by himself. Although she had no involvement whatsoever, it didn't stop her shoving him out the way and doing it herself ...
It was a lovely event. UNTIL The Lutheran representative took to the microphone and introduced herself by explaining for 10 full minutes why Martin Luther had felt the need to leave the Roman Catholic church.
Missouri Synod? As I recall, some of their clergy got in hot water for participating in those events at all.
When the registers are signed the Priest signs that the couple have been married "according to the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England" so if people have gone off-piste and decided to do their own thing then they have not been so married, the registration is not correct and so, technically, the marriage hasn't taken place.
Random legal question: Is the defect cured by creation of a common law marriage if the couple hold themselves as married for a prescribed length of time?
There is no such thing as a "common law marriage" in the UK. Marital Status (or otherwise) recognised by the UK state is limited to the following
single, never married
single, previous marriage/ civil partnership dissolved
widowed
in a civil partnership
married
You can "hold yourself as married" until you're blue in the face, but if you're not married you're not married, end of. And since "common law" marriage doesn't exist if the ceremony meant to signify the marriage was deficient to the extent that the issuing of a Certificate was for the registrar (priest in the case of a church) to give witness to a falsehood (perjury) then you're not married.
Of course in most cases a Superintendent Registrar will be inclined to be lenient, at least towards the couple, but for the whole business of accurately recording marriages to have any credibility as to the registers being held to be documents of record a SR must be satisfied/ confident that the rules are being adhered to. That is why it is necessary for anyone re-marrying after divorce to produce their Decree Absolute beforehand so that there is evidence that they are free to marry - on the whole bigamy is frowned on!
If a couple established a common law marriage in Scotland prior to the abolition of common law marriage in 2006, their valid marriage remains valid. So there are still couples in the Scottish part of the UK who have a common law marriage, and there will continue to be couples with a common law marriage for many years to come. There just aren't any recent common law marriages.
And then there was the vicar who used to boast that he was so gifted at preaching he only ever needed the time it took for him to walk from the rectory door to the church door, two hundred yards away, on a Sunday morning to prepare his sermon.
The PCC bought him a new vicarage in the next town.
When I had a student on placement (a mature and sensible woman) a few years ago, she came to me after being in her own church on Christmas Eve wanting to know if she was right to be worried at what her minister had said. On Christmas Eve, with lots of strangers in the congregation, he had likened the incarnation to his adolescent desire to see a naked woman and had told how he used to peep through the keyhole of his mother's bedroom in hope.....!!!
I assured her that it showed her good sense that she was concerned, and added I wouldn't think she had overshot her duties as an elder (which she was) if she had told him to shut up or switched off his microphone.
@Cathscats apart from that being a salaciously inappropriate analogy that no minister should consider using in public worship, what on earth did he claim was the connection between his spotty adolescent lusts and the nature of the incarnation?
I'm not sure that doesn't beat Eutychus's example.
A young boy of about 13 was to give the presentation. His older sister accompanied him as he didn't want to do it by himself. Although she had no involvement whatsoever, it didn't stop her shoving him out the way and doing it herself ...
As someone with not an older sister, but 2 of them, I know just what happened.
@Cathscats apart from that being a salaciously inappropriate analogy that no minister should consider using in public worship, what on earth did he claim was the connection between his spotty adolescent lusts and the nature of the incarnation?
I'm not sure that doesn't beat Eutychus's example.
I wasn't there, but I think that the context was that just as his teenage self wanted to see what a naked woman was like we all want to see what God is like, so he showed us. (It may have been his most memorable sermon....)
I wasn't there, but I think that the context was that just as his teenage self wanted to see what a naked woman was like we all want to see what God is like, so he showed us. (It may have been his most memorable sermon....)
If that was his normal level, I'd imagine it was the only memorable sermon in his ministerial career. That's so bad an analogy that I hadn't guessed that might have been what he was trying to say. The Incarnation was intentional, God's plan centuries in the making. Presumably his mother had no suspicion even that her grubby little pride and joy was a Peeping Tom.
Unfortunately, we all seem to remember the worst sermons rather than the best ones. Last year we interviewed three candidates for Rector. Each celebrated the Eucharist just for the Vestry and a few others. I remember being impressed with Candidate #1's (our new rector) but couldn't for the life of me tell you what it was about. I remember very little of #2's. But OMG -- #3's! I won't go into it here, but is was horrendous. Almost a year later I could tell you all about it (but I'll spare you). Why do I remember that horror, but not #1's, which I thought was so good?
A sermon should be of the moment, for its time and place. Doesn't mean that it should necessarily be forgettable afterwards, of course, but it has met its situation, it has done its job. They preacher doesn't want you to remember his or her words, but to get the message that was behind them and act on it or let it act on you.
Bad sermons don't do this,and so they are things in themselves and also we always remember what makes us cringe.
I wasn't .... she was Young, Innocent and wanted to see if IP was really as awful as she had heard ...
I'm all for intellectual curiosity but there are limits ...!
A new church opened up around the corner from me. I never attended a service because you could stand on the other side of the busy road and still hear the Minister preaching / praying. God obviously needed telling ... LOUDLY!
I wasn't there, but I think that the context was that just as his teenage self wanted to see what a naked woman was like we all want to see what God is like, so he showed us. (It may have been his most memorable sermon....)
If that was his normal level, I'd imagine it was the only memorable sermon in his ministerial career.
Oh, I don’t know. Seems to me that anyone who could come up with that analogy might be capable of any number of memorable sermons.
A sermon should be of the moment, for its time and place. Doesn't mean that it should necessarily be forgettable afterwards, of course, but it has met its situation, it has done its job. They preacher doesn't want you to remember his or her words, but to get the message that was behind them and act on it or let it act on you.
This! I liken it to a good meal with family or friends. Yes, there may be a few really good where later on details about the food can be remembered. And you often remember the bad ones. But a good meal has done its work if you are fed and nourished, and if you’re drawn closer at least for a time to friends and family.
A sermon should be of the moment, for its time and place. Doesn't mean that it should necessarily be forgettable afterwards, of course, but it has met its situation, it has done its job. They preacher doesn't want you to remember his or her words, but to get the message that was behind them and act on it or let it act on you.
Bad sermons don't do this,and so they are things in themselves and also we always remember what makes us cringe.
Missouri Synod? As I recall, some of their clergy got in hot water for participating in those events at all.
Yes, most infamously in a 9/11 prayer service. A distinguished organist of my acquaintance recalls that at an organization of which he was a board member, the non-Christians like the Jews and Mormons stayed in the room for the opening prayer, but the MoSyn gentlemen had to leave the room until it was over.
The sermon I remember the most is one delivered by a RC priest who was known for his hellfire and brimstone homilies. One Sunday he was talking about how to make a good confession. He said something like:
"You go to confession. 'Bless me Father, for I have sinned. I missed mass twice, I told three lies, I used the Lord's name in vain four times. I'm sorry for my sins.' Na-a-a-a. You're not sorry for your sins! That's not a confession . . . that's a laundry list!"
In the RC church of my youth, the 9:00 children's mass was routinely taken by a supply priest, a Franciscan as I recall. He had a way of engaging the children in dialog, asking them questions, and really making the mass an interesting experience for them.
At the children's mass, each school class would sit with their teacher, who was of course a nun. Now the nuns weren't having any of Father's ways of livening up the mass. When he got going with his dialogs and questions, they would whisper under their breath to their charges, "Don't answer him!" "Put your hand down!" Naturally, the priest picked up on that and would simply do his thing all the more.
One Halloween he was preaching about the origins of the day and of the custom of trick-or-treating. He asked, "And how many of you are dressing up tonight and going out trick-or-treating?" Of course, every hand went up, with the usual reaction from the nuns.
"Now be sure to ring the doorbell at the convent," he said. "The nuns would love to have you come by so they can give you candy." Naughty? Yes. Wicked? Yes. But it could be argued that they were asking for it.
With all the sympathy in the world for those tasked with preaching on Trinity Sunday, did anyone else play heresy bingo this morning? I got modalism and partialism, anyone manage any more than that from their preacher today? (I had to check the names of the heresies https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/Trinitarian Heresies.html )
We got confounding the Persons (to be fair, it was the children's reply to an ill-thought-out question from the pastor) and it prompted a complete change of sermon in the second service.
I felt an unease which now you mention it turns out to be related to the preachers ideas and
Modalism. But on reflection I can't do any better. Our service had more immediate problems owing to a lack of rhythmic synchronisation between preacher on guitar, and organist.
One member of our congregation, on being asked 'what does the Trinity mean to you', recalled that her kids (or probably grandkids) had attended a school of that name. Well, she was on safe ground, I reckon.
We got a guest preacher who attributed the Three-Legged Stool of Scripture, Tradition, and Reason to Thomas Cranmer. I startled others in my section of the choir (and the associate rector, who was parked close to me) when I said, "No, Hooker!" At least I didn't use my opera voice.
We got a guest preacher who attributed the Three-Legged Stool of Scripture, Tradition, and Reason to Thomas Cranmer. I startled others in my section of the choir (and the associate rector, who was parked close to me) when I said, "No, Hooker!" At least I didn't use my opera voice.
Something at the back of my mind is yelling that the three-legged stool comes from John Keble's preface to the 1840 edition of Hooker, not from Hooker himself.
PDR, I believe you are right. The base theology came from Hooker, but he never used the example of a three-legged stool. His idea was more one of layers with scripture being the foundation layer.
Arguably, there should be a ban on mentioning TV evangelists in this thread, since that's kind of like finding bad acting in a porn film. But since it's one of the rare times that I have heard an absolutely putrid sermon(I've been generally blessed in this regard)...
Somewhat uncharacteristically for his profession, the guy was speaking in a tin-voiced monotone, and standing still, not engaged in leather-lunged bellowing or jumping about the stage. The topic was the scriptural ignorance of youth.
"Kids today know everything about Axl Rose, but nothing about Aaron. And they've all heard of Backstreet Boys, but not about Bartholomew. And they can tell you everything about The Cars, but not one thing about Caiphas..."
And on and on he went, with 26 pairs from each list conjoined.
If he's talking about "kids" today, he's better find some relatively contemporary examples...Axl Rose and the Backstreet Boys are decades out of date.
Not by church standards they're not. We're talking about an institution where at 50-something I'm young.
I instigated a rule with the previous minister here that she was not allowed to call church music modern if it was written before I was born. I'm considering a further restriction to things written this century as I get older but that might be pushing things too far. Barring my daughter and the two children of one of the elders I've got a good decade on the rest of the congregation, two or more on most, and 3-4 on most of the visiting preachers.
Comments
Erm.... Moo?
Was Lovely Wife II present to hear herself being so tactlessly extolled?
IMHO that's even worse than the wedding sermon I mentioned on this thread back in December, though I'm not sure the one that Eutychus mentioned shortly after that doesn't cap it.
I suppose we ought to ask - which Patron Saint was it that he was claiming had brought them together? And were a stand and candles provided and available for people to light at the end of the service? Perhaps your shack could develop a lucrative cult, and English Lisdoonvarna?
Clearly, he had been around churches where they preached what God told them to preach, so he didn't bother preparing anything. It showed. He rambled on incoherently for 20 minutes or so. Including references to "fe fi fo fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman" (I would explain the context, but I am not sure there was any).
I actually walked out.
Clearly, nobody had told him that people who preach extempore have usually practiced and prepared for hours beforehand.
Was it Martin Luther who said something along the lines of "the Holy Spirit did speak: he told me I was lazy and should have prepared more"?
No, I don't think Lovely Wife (Wife the First was always referred to as 'Dear Wife') was present on that particular sick-making occasion, but she is probably used by now to his fawning...
The Saint referred to was not AFAIK noted for match-making. Without going into too much detail, he was an Evangelist, a Doctor, and (by tradition) an Artist.
As we've moved on to visiting preachers, when I was attending a more charismatic church, we once had a healing service scheduled for Easter Sunday afternoon - by a preacher invited by the church leader who had never heard him speak, but had stayed in the same retreat and had been impressed by his habit of praying for several hours every morning.
The illustration which tied together why he was holding a preaching service on Easter was the famous one where a stream of blood from the cross healed the lady standing under it - yes, he had confused the plot of Ben Hur with the Bible.
There is no such thing as a "common law marriage" in the UK. Marital Status (or otherwise) recognised by the UK state is limited to the following
You can "hold yourself as married" until you're blue in the face, but if you're not married you're not married, end of. And since "common law" marriage doesn't exist if the ceremony meant to signify the marriage was deficient to the extent that the issuing of a Certificate was for the registrar (priest in the case of a church) to give witness to a falsehood (perjury) then you're not married.
Of course in most cases a Superintendent Registrar will be inclined to be lenient, at least towards the couple, but for the whole business of accurately recording marriages to have any credibility as to the registers being held to be documents of record a SR must be satisfied/ confident that the rules are being adhered to. That is why it is necessary for anyone re-marrying after divorce to produce their Decree Absolute beforehand so that there is evidence that they are free to marry - on the whole bigamy is frowned on!
Channeling Spong, mainly
Visiting preacher from a US charismatic church, something of a name in certain circles (though I had never heard of him). Speaking at an Elim Pentecostal church in the UK, which had no truck with ‘prosperity gospel’ (no idea what its stance is these days).
Paraphrasing:
“Yes, I have a big house with a pool, and a nice car, and plenty of money. And I’m grateful to God for all these things. They are a blessing from Him. So no, I’m not gonna share them with other people, because that would stop them asking God for their own blessings!”
Exit Gill H, stage right.
...what would be his prayer to God in those circumstances, I wonder?
But no presentation, no more volunteers or money. (TBH, by the time it was all over, everyone else on the project wished they had been told where to go. They were a total nightmare).
A young boy of about 13 was to give the presentation. His older sister accompanied him as he didn't want to do it by himself. Although she had no involvement whatsoever, it didn't stop her shoving him out the way and doing it herself ...
If a couple established a common law marriage in Scotland prior to the abolition of common law marriage in 2006, their valid marriage remains valid. So there are still couples in the Scottish part of the UK who have a common law marriage, and there will continue to be couples with a common law marriage for many years to come. There just aren't any recent common law marriages.
But why were you in there to start with ...?
The PCC bought him a new vicarage in the next town.
I assured her that it showed her good sense that she was concerned, and added I wouldn't think she had overshot her duties as an elder (which she was) if she had told him to shut up or switched off his microphone.
I'm not sure that doesn't beat Eutychus's example.
As someone with not an older sister, but 2 of them, I know just what happened.
I wasn't there, but I think that the context was that just as his teenage self wanted to see what a naked woman was like we all want to see what God is like, so he showed us. (It may have been his most memorable sermon....)
Bad sermons don't do this,and so they are things in themselves and also we always remember what makes us cringe.
I'm all for intellectual curiosity but there are limits ...!
A new church opened up around the corner from me. I never attended a service because you could stand on the other side of the busy road and still hear the Minister preaching / praying. God obviously needed telling ... LOUDLY!
This! I liken it to a good meal with family or friends. Yes, there may be a few really good where later on details about the food can be remembered. And you often remember the bad ones. But a good meal has done its work if you are fed and nourished, and if you’re drawn closer at least for a time to friends and family.
Thanks -- that makes a lot of sense.
"You go to confession. 'Bless me Father, for I have sinned. I missed mass twice, I told three lies, I used the Lord's name in vain four times. I'm sorry for my sins.' Na-a-a-a. You're not sorry for your sins! That's not a confession . . . that's a laundry list!"
In the RC church of my youth, the 9:00 children's mass was routinely taken by a supply priest, a Franciscan as I recall. He had a way of engaging the children in dialog, asking them questions, and really making the mass an interesting experience for them.
At the children's mass, each school class would sit with their teacher, who was of course a nun. Now the nuns weren't having any of Father's ways of livening up the mass. When he got going with his dialogs and questions, they would whisper under their breath to their charges, "Don't answer him!" "Put your hand down!" Naturally, the priest picked up on that and would simply do his thing all the more.
One Halloween he was preaching about the origins of the day and of the custom of trick-or-treating. He asked, "And how many of you are dressing up tonight and going out trick-or-treating?" Of course, every hand went up, with the usual reaction from the nuns.
"Now be sure to ring the doorbell at the convent," he said. "The nuns would love to have you come by so they can give you candy." Naughty? Yes. Wicked? Yes. But it could be argued that they were asking for it.
Also, obligatory St Patrick's bad analogies:
https://youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw
Modalism. But on reflection I can't do any better. Our service had more immediate problems owing to a lack of rhythmic synchronisation between preacher on guitar, and organist.
One member of our congregation, on being asked 'what does the Trinity mean to you', recalled that her kids (or probably grandkids) had attended a school of that name. Well, she was on safe ground, I reckon.
Something at the back of my mind is yelling that the three-legged stool comes from John Keble's preface to the 1840 edition of Hooker, not from Hooker himself.
Somewhat uncharacteristically for his profession, the guy was speaking in a tin-voiced monotone, and standing still, not engaged in leather-lunged bellowing or jumping about the stage. The topic was the scriptural ignorance of youth.
"Kids today know everything about Axl Rose, but nothing about Aaron. And they've all heard of Backstreet Boys, but not about Bartholomew. And they can tell you everything about The Cars, but not one thing about Caiphas..."
And on and on he went, with 26 pairs from each list conjoined.
Xerxes, I should think.
Not by church standards they're not. We're talking about an institution where at 50-something I'm young.
So the accountants would steal his money, then take up residence in the pool?
I instigated a rule with the previous minister here that she was not allowed to call church music modern if it was written before I was born. I'm considering a further restriction to things written this century as I get older but that might be pushing things too far. Barring my daughter and the two children of one of the elders I've got a good decade on the rest of the congregation, two or more on most, and 3-4 on most of the visiting preachers.