Why are Diocesan "Advisors" Patronising Gits?

PDRPDR Shipmate
The down side of receiving funding from an outside source is that you have to jump through the hoops, but if you want the dough, you accept the inconvenience. Our early history meant that we ended up a diocesan, not a parochial mission with the result we have to jump through the hoops the diocesan board of mission has put in place. The guy who runs this - in day-to-day terms the board is just window dressing - is an A type personality with a neo-evangelical slant and a tendency to run rough-shod over any sort of dissent. He likes to fix things, and he has been very good at starting new churches in the past, but I don't think he is a good fit for his present position.

Anyway, we have been going for a year which means we were due for a review. The basic idea is to assess whether or not we are performing. Well, by most measures we are; membership is up; giving is to the point where we may well be self-sustaining in 2020; we are beginning to be known in the community; etc.. That said, there are some things that are distinctly work-in-progress, and I would not have minded some advice on that, but he fastened on two things.

The first was the timing of our morning service - 11:15am. far too late - says he. He has a point, but I explain to him that that time suits the organist who happens to play for another church in town. Then he goes on a rant about Organists being optional - less than veiled dig at our worship style - and that there are various options other than having live music, etc., etc., but we really needed to move the service earlier to get more families with young children. We have teenagers, but apparently that isn't good enough.

The next round was over the fact we do not have the Eucharist at both services. One service is either MP or EP with a fairly hefty sermon; whilst the other the Eucharist. This suits the existing, growing, congregation, who obviously are find something at the mission that they are not finding at the various St. Practically-Identicals around us.

The third round was on diatribe on information technology and social media of one sort or another, but by that time I had switched off, and was contemplating a more serious question...

Why are Diocesan Advisors patronising gits?

End of Rant!
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Comments

  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    PDR wrote: »
    Then he goes on a rant about Organists being optional
    Last time I checked, diocesan 'advisors' are even more optional. It seems that some people think that administration is the most important thing in the Church.
    PDR wrote: »
    but we really needed to move the service earlier to get more families with young children. We have teenagers, but apparently that isn't good enough.
    Yes, because families with young children is the only thing that exists for some people.
    PDR wrote: »
    The next round was over the fact we do not have the Eucharist at both services. One service is either MP or EP with a fairly hefty sermon; whilst the other the Eucharist. This suits the existing, growing, congregation, who obviously are find something at the mission that they are not finding at the various St. Practically-Identicals around us.
    What? Why is it a problem that an Anglican Church has MP or EP (assuming that this is an Anglican Church)?
  • Is he ignorable? By which i mean, can he affect your funding?

    We were once in a virtually identical situation with a similar staffer who missed his calling to be a CPA. He told us we were wrong to think pastors should shepherd the flock; we needed to think like ranchers, said he, and interact with people en masse only, and from a distance.

    Git.
  • kmann wrote: »
    Why is it a problem that an Anglican Church has MP or EP (assuming that this is an Anglican Church)?

    The received wisdom is that we are a community in communion with itself and others, hence for many clergy (and some faithful) the only truly "valid" service is a celebration of communion.

    We have tension over this at our place, but since the figures show that the parish eucharist numbers are holding steady (an achievement in itself) those for full-on Choral Matins are growing; furthermore that growth is not a short-lived thing but has been steady over the past 10 years, during which time we have added a staggering 35% to congregation numbers.

    Fifteen months ago it was decided to re-start Evensong, just once a month for the moment. Attendance for that was steady for the first 9 months but is now also growing. And to crown it all the Book of Common Prayer said 8am eucharist is also growing.

    Our Diocesan mission adviser is not entirely relaxed or happy about any of this, and I can see why: he goes about, preaching that being "modern" and eucharistic is the way forward, learn to embrace a worship band, throw out traditional language, and here are we with proof that the services that show greatest growth at our place are Book of Common Prayer, that music at all services is on the traditional side, and the standard parish eucharist is the service that isn't growing. :grin:
  • Heh.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited June 2019
    Is he ignorable? By which i mean, can he affect your funding?

    So far as 2019 is concerned - definitely ignorable. After that it is a little less clear cut. If we meet our budget projections then we should be OK, but if we slip behind then he might push to defund.

    I am pretty convinced that 90% of the angst is due to the fact that we do not tick any of the usual boxes, so he somehow thinks his whole system for planting new congregations is being undermined. What he seems to miss is that the whole premise behind the plant was 'to do something different' and in our case that means doing things that have become rare - such as Sung Morning Prayer, or an eastward facing, traditional language Sung Eucharist.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    On reflection, not defund, as defunding a mission that is almost "there" would back fire. However, he could push to have us put us on a short leash. For example, we might have to knuckle under and offer communion at both services, or drop trad. language at one of them, as a condition of continued funding.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    PDR wrote: »
    but we really needed to move the service earlier to get more families with young children. We have teenagers, but apparently that isn't good enough.

    If you've got teenagers you're doing bloody well. At almost every church I can think of with young children, the children disappear off the face of the planet as soon as they reach secondary school.
  • Odd that he's insisting on communion at both services. Most evangelical / neo-evangelical clergy I come across seem to sit lightly by eucharistic observance with communion offered monthly rather than weekly in some instances.

    Is outrage.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Wow. Who's running your parish, him or you and your team? Except that it wouldn't go down well, a lot of people would be tempted to say 'well if you think that's how things should be done, we could always swap. You come here and do my job, and I'll come to your place and do yours'.

    Have you people in your congregation who would be squeamish about the notion of anyone offering the Eucharist more than once on the same day on the same altar? Would you be uncomfortable celebrating more than once on the same day? Both of those are quite widely held sentiments.
  • I mean, Pop-Psych here, but he's scared. He has exactly one model of how things are done, and here you are showing him that his paradigm is not necessarily the winning strategy.

    My advice is treat him not as an adversary, but as a victim. Invite him along to your services, and love-bomb him into submission.
  • That's a good strategy. Here's a bad one: in front of him, attribute your recent successes (while talking to a third party) to his wonderful advice -- and then quote what YOU are doing, not what he actually said.

    Bad Lamb, very bad. Must go sit on the naughty step...
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited June 2019
    Odd that he's insisting on communion at both services. Most evangelical / neo-evangelical clergy I come across seem to sit lightly by eucharistic observance with communion offered monthly rather than weekly in some instances.

    Is outrage.

    That would be the case in the UK, but USA is a bit different. The Parish Communion Movement took over in the 1970s, and then a revival of Evangelicalism arrived in the 1980s. So communion as the main service was well established before the Evangelicals really got going again. Low here would be a loosely constructed modern language Eucharist with the presider in alb and stole celebrating west facing using leavened bread and "two-buck Chuck" for the elements. Most of the music coming from a praise band and post dating the 1982 Hymnal.

    @Enoch - as to who is in control; legally it is the Bishop, with the Vicar as the bishop's representative, and the mission committee. The bishop is hands off with new congregations, so in practice it is the Vicar and the Mission Committee, though in effect we make most of our decisions on the basis of a quick group discussion at coffee hour.

    I am MOTR in churchmanship, but I was trained in a traditional Anglo-Catholic environment, so I am not real keen on celebrating twice in one day unless there is a pressing pastoral reason. On the other hand, a lot of my congregation have a background where weekly communion would be uncommon to unheard of. I also have some 'twicers' so two communion services would be awkward for them.

    @Doc Tor - the temptation for me is to treat him as neither an adversary or as a victim, but to give him "the Martian treatment" - listen respectfully, acknowledge that he comes from another planet, and carry on as usual. He does not like High Church worship (in the sense of both culture and catholicism, though I irritate him mainly with the former) and so he is out of his comfort zone with us. I am out of my depth with his "Bluegrass Mass" and various other things he has organised, so I can see why he might be uncomfortable.

    I actually wonder whether others might be having problems with him. No-one really dislikes him, but he doesn't seem to be real popular with any of the groups in the diocese, except the other "Church Growth" folks.

    @Lamb Chopped - in the nicest possible way, I am going to have to say 'get thee behind me, Satan' - that is far too tempting a suggestion.
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    PDR wrote: »
    [...give him "the Martian treatment"

    You leave us out of this.
  • Heheheheheheheheh. Must go repent now.
  • Is he into 'Church Growth' as in the Church Growth Movement (CGM)? There is a nice discussion of it in CGM in context in this article.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited June 2019
    Up to a point, I would say yes. He is definitely into the whole market research, target audience, location thing as he was a marketing man before his collar was reversed ten years ago. That is where I spot the similarity to CGM. On the other hand he brings quite a few other ideas to the table, so I am beginning to think that St Oddballs is just in his blind spot.

    Initially, I did follow quite a lot of his advice about identifying the who, what, where, why, and how. However, knowing the folks who wanted a plant in this area, I did largely ignore him when it came to the actual product. I got a very different mix to the one he anticipated so I went with their 'traditional Liturgical Protestant' leanings rather than his more seeker-friendly style. The fact that it is working is rather at odds with his market research, methinks.

    I am going to have a go at hitting the reset button with him. He is not a deadly enemy or something, but he does have a touching belief that liturgical modernity is the answer to all problems - well, that and market research. If nothing else he can use us as an example of 'sometimes you just have to break the mould...'

  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    PDR wrote: »
    I am pretty convinced that 90% of the angst is due to the fact that we do not tick any of the usual boxes, so he somehow thinks his whole system for planting new congregations is being undermined.
    So he's an asshole, then, who thinks that the Church should only do things his way.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Surely "worship band" is an oxymoron in a traditional Anglican setting?
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    Surely "worship band" is an oxymoron in a traditional Anglican setting?
    Not so. This and this

  • Enoch wrote: »
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    Surely "worship band" is an oxymoron in a traditional Anglican setting?
    Not so. This and this
    Quite so. But that is not the sort of "praise" or "worship" band these people have in mind.

    A mate near London is in a "worship" band that plays once a month - it is a small string and woodwind ensemble that accompanies Mozart and Haydn masses, not the sort of band of choice for most DAs.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited June 2019
    If he was talking West Gallery Music, or Haydn I could definitely get quite enthusiastic. My music range runs from roughly Machaut to Mahler, so that would be meat and drink to me. Alas not, he means something along the lines of what the landlord uses at their main worship service, which, the last time I looked was two guitars, bass, drums, piano, and clarinet/sax all hitched together with enough wire to run the transcontinental telegraph!

    When we get a bit further on, and there is some money in the pot to do it, we are considering forming a small vocal group to tackle something a bit more ambitious than Merbeck or Healey Willan once a month, but that will be a year or two yet. Something like the Byrd four-part in the context of an English Missal Mass has a certain appeal as a special liturgy - not sure what the more protestant element in the congregation would make of it though! As the church has side and rear galleries there are some interesting possibilities musically if we ever have the resources.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    Lovely!
  • PDR wrote: »
    When we get a bit further on, and there is some money in the pot to do it, we are considering forming a small vocal group to tackle something a bit more ambitious than Merbeck or Healey Willan once a month, but that will be a year or two yet. Something like the Byrd four-part in the context of an English Missal Mass has a certain appeal as a special liturgy - not sure what the more protestant element in the congregation would make of it though! As the church has side and rear galleries there are some interesting possibilities musically if we ever have the resources.

    Some rough medieval folk is what you need, guv. Belt it out (preferably in the nearest tavern) and fill the halls.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited June 2019
    West Gallery music was - ahem! - vernacular. I suspect that, in many Places (not to mention Quires), unaccompanied music, led by a precentor, might have been less enthusiastic but more melodious.

    Having said that, I do think that many modern (amateur) worship bands are the natural successors to West Gallery players. And of course they play modern music - as did the Players in their day. After all, wasn't there great outrage in many places when hymns were introduced? You can just imagine the comments: "Tate and Brady's paraphrases were good enough for my parents. I don't see why we have to sing these dreadful new-fangled hymns by Mr. Watts and Mr. Wesley - and they're Nonconformists! Standards in the Church of England are clearly dropping - why, in Parson Smith's day .....".
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    [Random nonsense] Parish Communion - as distinct, I suppose, from non-parish communion as celebrated, for example, by a ship's chaplain at sea ...
  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    edited June 2019
    Parish Communion Movement. The group of people that took the weekly communion from being the early service to the main Sunday service instead of mattins. The nearest NonConformist equivalent was largely forgotten Family Church Movement that had the idea that the whole family should be in church on Sunday morning so moved Sunday School to happen as a children's session at the time of part of the Sunday Service rather than on the afternoon.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    I grew up with the consequences of the PCM, and like most 15-18 y.o. males I resented having to be washed, dressed, and capable of constructing a sentence by 9:30am on a Sunday morning. I would have been a lot happier with 10am or 10:30am. However, I went because I was in the choir, and more importantly, so was my girlfriend. Before the days of choir and girlfriend, if the inside of a church saw me it was almost always at 6:30pm.

    In one respect, I am an horrible old Prot., and that is I do not have a tremendous need to receive communion every week. I am glad to know it is on the schedule, but in the times that I have been 'clerically unemployed' I have been happy enough trotting along to EP, or to the local Lutheran shack on 'dry' weeks, and receiving Communion once a month.

    But I am way off the point.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Enoch wrote: »
    Not so. This and this
    I had forgot the Georgians. I do prefer the Anglican tradition of choir and organ. Bring on the Howells!
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    I like most forms of church music, but I have a real blind spot when it comes to amps, drums and 7-11 music.
  • I’ll tell you though—there’s no Easter like a traditional Moravian Easter with a Moravian brass band. The best part starts at around 2:30 in the video, with the procession to the cemetery.

    (Yeah, I know. Not an Anglican worship band. But still.)
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Yeah, but I am a sucker for brass bands...
  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    edited June 2019
    We get a brass band for the carol service and for major processions so it is not just the Moravians; they do occur in Anglican settings albeit in the old coal and steel belt of South Yorkshire.
  • I've been to CofE services in deepest darkest Dorset with a brass band playing hymns.
  • When we cleared out a glory hole some years ago it coincided with the chance to acquire a harpsichord which is used to good effect for things like The Record of John and other delights.😉
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    At first sight that looks like an occasion that would require both smelling salts and gin to speed recovery if it occurred anywhere even remotely culturally inappropriate.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    To update you on the story...

    The Patronizing Git phoned me last night after close of play. He allegedly was calling me on business regarding the Commission for Ministry, which we are both on. He wanted to check on a few things regarding that committee's business, then he came around to the subject of St Oddball's. Compared to last time he seemed quite conciliatory, and left the subject of worship style alone. He still got a couple of his pet-peeves in - morning service time, and my arm's length relationship with social media - but it was a much more constructive conversation - i.e. I came off the phone thinking about what he said that seemed useful, rather than wanting to throttle him.

    Possible progress.
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    Sounds like someone's had a quiet word in his shell-like.
  • CharlesReadCharlesRead Shipmate Posts: 8
    Well I am a diocesan advisor in the Church of England and I wish some parishes in the diocese would take my advice! Like that they would include intercessions in their services, have more than one Bible reading, learn how to use liturgy in a charismatic church, get their worship leaders some training and authorisation.....
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited June 2019
    Part of my annoyance was down to the fact that he has missions under his nose that are far less inclined to play along than I am, but I was getting tweaked because I actually pay some attention in so far as local circumstances allow. I occasionally feel like reminding him that I have been around a bit - examining chaplain, area dean, etc., - so am not a complete neophyte.

    The one that is regarded as the classic around here is meeting at 12:30 or 1:00pm and wondering why you do not get a congregation. I had to have the 'come to Jesus talk' with several mission committees about that one when I was an area dean. Thankfully I have never had to deal with English style charismatics since I took orders. From what I remember of them from college they were - erm - "challenging" to those of us of other churchmanships.
  • As a tangent, precisely what training and authorisation does a worship leader in the C of E need?

    Asking for a friend...
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Sounds like someone's had a quiet word in his shell-like.

    Given his usual level of perceptiveness, I would suggest that someone 'grabbed hold and twisted' rather than 'had a quiet word' in his shell-like.
  • That all sounds pretty normal. I have 'legacy skills' on guitar, but I really don't like all that stuff in church. I wish I could push a button and become able to play the organ instead of the things I _can_ play. Even just the hands. But alas, my memory no longer works and I can't learn much of anything new.

    PDR - why does the bloke want you to do the stuff which your host church already does? That sounds daft.

    (If you hear of me playing the hymns of Wesley and - special favourite - Joachim Neander competently on the organ, pray for me - you'll know I met the devil at the crossroads on a dark and windy night... :wink: )
  • No, and nor is this.

    (That was hard to find; there's much more popular tune which I like less that this one...I'm a sucker for a minor key. Off to find Aberystwyth and cry.)
  • No, and nor is this.

    (That was hard to find; there's much more popular tune which I like less that this one...I'm a sucker for a minor key. Off to find Aberystwyth and cry.)

    I think you can get at least most of the way by train from Manchester. @Baptist Trainfan ?
  • I like it. But British Rail never moved me like this.
  • But it might have shaken you!

    Re. trains: change at Shrewsbury for the Cambrian Coast line.
  • Well I am a diocesan advisor in the Church of England and I wish some parishes in the diocese would take my advice! Like that they would include intercessions in their services, have more than one Bible reading, learn how to use liturgy in a charismatic church, get their worship leaders some training and authorisation.....

    It does begin to look a bit like some centralised control is going on

  • PDR wrote: »
    Thankfully I have never had to deal with English style charismatics since I took orders. From what I remember of them from college they were - erm - "challenging" to those of us of other churchmanships.
    Works both ways ... as some of us who are charismatically inclined discover very quickly

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