I am always a bit dubious about the ability of toasters to really support congregational singing. The organ in St Oddballs has 18 ranks but 22 stops - there is a fair bit of borrowing going on - but it has the necessary chorus for supporting congregation singing. I find toasters tend to be more concert hall organs with far imitations of all the mutation, and reed stops one might hope to find on a French organ, but they are weak on the meat-and-potatoes stops.
That isn't to say that some pipe organs are not flawed in that respect. The Canadian Cassavant organs of the mid-1960s were very French, with the result they were not really suitable for Protestant liturgical worship. The one in the TEC parish here was tamed a few years ago with a digital add on.
FWIW I am a bit less hostile to digitals than I am to electronics mainly because a well engineered digi seem to have the necessary oomph for congregational singing. That said, for the liturgy I still prefer a pipe organ, but the gap has closed a bit with the progression from electronic technology to digital.
P.S. I actually had a civilised conversation with the Patronizing Git who sparked the thread this evening. I am definitely thinking that someone "had a word."
The (thoroughly Protestant) church in the city where I live is the reason we have Cassavant. The company relied on the church's order of a new organ in the mid 1930's to keep themselves alive.
At School the Chapel had an organ, a modest two manual and pedal instrument. The Great Hall, following refurbishment following the great fire of 1979, was kitted out with an electronic instrument with four manuals and more stops than you could shake a stick at .
The (thoroughly Protestant) church in the city where I live is the reason we have Cassavant. The company relied on the church's order of a new organ in the mid 1930's to keep themselves alive.
Yes, there's a very decent Cassavant in the city centre United Church of Canada where we used to worship before we moved away. It certainly sustained fine Protestant singing, and also let the rather flamboyant organist have his fun in the postlude.
And the Zimbelstern stop added something to Christmas celebrations, but I'm not quite sure what...
There's a Diocesan Organ Adviser in a southern diocese who has "advised" several churches to get rid of their pipe organs and replace with electronic, frequently on the grounds that they take up less space. The same "adviser" is notorious for producing schemes that take dreary-but-worthy organs and replace them with ... the same dreary-but-worthy instrument plus a 15th big enough for the Albert Hall, or with the imaginative addition of an 8 foot reed.
There is nothing to equal the joy of an organ that is in the wrong place, rarely tuned, has no reed, eight 8 foot stops, two 4 foot stops and the infamous all-purpose 16 foot Open Wood is the only pedal
Just asking. Without real pipes with real air in them, can an electronic instrument make the building vibrate in the way real bass pipes do?
Yes. Where we tend to be on Sundays in the summer is large space with stone walls and hard floor, and with perhaps as many as 1,000 or more in worship. The organ is digital and works very well for supporting liturgy and hymn-singing, for choir or soloists, and for organ-only voluntarily, etc. And it has made the building (or at least the pews) vibrate.
...and the infamous all-purpose 16 foot Open Wood is the only pedal
Do organ builders avoid providing a coupler to enable pedal stops to be played on a keyboard, so as to defeat the attentions of mere pianists? Ours is like that. And I'm a long way short of 'mere'.
The (thoroughly Protestant) church in the city where I live is the reason we have Cassavant. The company relied on the church's order of a new organ in the mid 1930's to keep themselves alive.
I am not slagging them per se, but I am stating that they had a bad patch where style got the better of purpose around 1960-65. The 1960s Cassavants were fine concert organs, but indifferent at best for accompanying congregational singing, but otherwise they are great instruments in the French tradition.
...and the infamous all-purpose 16 foot Open Wood is the only pedal
Do organ builders avoid providing a coupler to enable pedal stops to be played on a keyboard, so as to defeat the attentions of mere pianists? Ours is like that. And I'm a long way short of 'mere'.
You end up, unless you're good at rearranging the part to hand allocation on the fly, at the least playing both the tenor and bass parts with the 16' pedal stop which makes for a muddy sound - as with the instruments mentioned above with a 16' manual stop.
Do organ builders avoid providing a coupler to enable pedal stops to be played on a keyboard, so as to defeat the attentions of mere pianists? Ours is like that. And I'm a long way short of 'mere'.
Its never done.
Of course, you do get specifications with a genuine 16 foot on a manual that isn't a snarly trumpety thing, but not often, and frequently these are "borrowed" from the pedal. Back in the mid 19th century there was Holdich who invented a 16 foot Dioctaton but as far as I'm aware none of his extant organs have one. (The two most complete are those in Lichfield Cathedral and the organ that was at the Radcliffe Infirmary Chapel in Oxford, now in a church in Sidlesham, Sussex.)
On the subject of filling a building with sound, an electronic or digital device is only as good as the speaker system which relays the sounds.
There is nothing to equal the joy of an organ that is in the wrong place, rarely tuned, has no reed, eight 8 foot stops, two 4 foot stops and the infamous all-purpose 16 foot Open Wood is the only pedal
The English Organ Building tradition at its most banal... or perhaps the Victorian version of cheap and nasty. BTW, I have heard the all-purpose 16' referred to as 'the wet fart stop' before today!
There is nothing to equal the joy of an organ that is in the wrong place, rarely tuned, has no reed, eight 8 foot stops, two 4 foot stops and the infamous all-purpose 16 foot Open Wood is the only pedal
The English Organ Building tradition at its most banal... or perhaps the Victorian version of cheap and nasty. BTW, I have heard the all-purpose 16' referred to as 'the wet fart stop' before today!
Isn't that normally the nickname of the not very good 16' reed?
Another problem, of course, is that toasters wear out and have to be replaced in a relatively short time, whereas a good pipe organ can, with proper maintenance, go on indefinitely. (The great organ at Notre-Dame is an example of that; some of the pipes are more than 200 years old. It turns out that it just needs to be cleaned and restored post-fire; Deo gratias!)
@Rossweisse - I agree with you on the durability of toasters. At St Oddballs' (we have bought the building we were meeting in - the sale closed Monday) has an Austin that is 94 years old, and almost everything except the 1960s wiring to the console aft is in good condition. I find a few hundred here and there, and a good tuning every now and again with spot tuning in between keeps everything running smoothly. My organist used to be a tech, so he will occasionally clue me in when our tuner/tech is pushing his own agenda. At the moment he is gung-ho to replace the 1960s electric action with some piece of digital wizardry which the Organist is poo-pooing. The Organist's main concern seems to be re-voicing a rather shouty trumpet that was baroque back in the 1965 rebuild.
The Methodists across the road have got through three toasters in the 55 years since the Austin in St O's was rebuilt. The present one seems to be currently in the first flush of youth as no-one is moaning about it yet.
I've just seen the specification of the organ I have to play for the funeral of an old friend in a couple of weeks.
They've lost the tuning book (always a good start). 16 foot Bourdon is the pedal stop, draw-stops for 8 but the Stopped Diapason is shared between the manuals, one 4 foot on the Swell - pleasant enough but no oomph, and a 15th that wouldn't be out of place in the Albert Hall.
Request from incumbent - can I play a transcription of Finlandia on it?
Thanks for the wishes. I've been laid low by a virulent nasty one of the sons brought back from a recent trip - such fun having a temperature over 100F in a clammy summer.
Just to keep you posted. The PG has crawled out of the woodwork and is now trespassing on my patch, which is clergy training. He wants to cut back on the amount of Church history we teach, and replace it with mission and evangelism course which will, of course, be "facilitated" by him. This won't be going anywhere, but it is symptomatic of his tendency to stick his nose in...
Comments
That isn't to say that some pipe organs are not flawed in that respect. The Canadian Cassavant organs of the mid-1960s were very French, with the result they were not really suitable for Protestant liturgical worship. The one in the TEC parish here was tamed a few years ago with a digital add on.
FWIW I am a bit less hostile to digitals than I am to electronics mainly because a well engineered digi seem to have the necessary oomph for congregational singing. That said, for the liturgy I still prefer a pipe organ, but the gap has closed a bit with the progression from electronic technology to digital.
P.S. I actually had a civilised conversation with the Patronizing Git who sparked the thread this evening. I am definitely thinking that someone "had a word."
The (thoroughly Protestant) church in the city where I live is the reason we have Cassavant. The company relied on the church's order of a new organ in the mid 1930's to keep themselves alive.
Guess which one sounded better?
Yes, there's a very decent Cassavant in the city centre United Church of Canada where we used to worship before we moved away. It certainly sustained fine Protestant singing, and also let the rather flamboyant organist have his fun in the postlude.
And the Zimbelstern stop added something to Christmas celebrations, but I'm not quite sure what...
There is nothing to equal the joy of an organ that is in the wrong place, rarely tuned, has no reed, eight 8 foot stops, two 4 foot stops and the infamous all-purpose 16 foot Open Wood is the only pedal
If you don't mind the moving of a lot of air degenerating into theatre.
Do organ builders avoid providing a coupler to enable pedal stops to be played on a keyboard, so as to defeat the attentions of mere pianists? Ours is like that. And I'm a long way short of 'mere'.
I am not slagging them per se, but I am stating that they had a bad patch where style got the better of purpose around 1960-65. The 1960s Cassavants were fine concert organs, but indifferent at best for accompanying congregational singing, but otherwise they are great instruments in the French tradition.
You end up, unless you're good at rearranging the part to hand allocation on the fly, at the least playing both the tenor and bass parts with the 16' pedal stop which makes for a muddy sound - as with the instruments mentioned above with a 16' manual stop.
Of course, you do get specifications with a genuine 16 foot on a manual that isn't a snarly trumpety thing, but not often, and frequently these are "borrowed" from the pedal. Back in the mid 19th century there was Holdich who invented a 16 foot Dioctaton but as far as I'm aware none of his extant organs have one. (The two most complete are those in Lichfield Cathedral and the organ that was at the Radcliffe Infirmary Chapel in Oxford, now in a church in Sidlesham, Sussex.)
On the subject of filling a building with sound, an electronic or digital device is only as good as the speaker system which relays the sounds.
The English Organ Building tradition at its most banal... or perhaps the Victorian version of cheap and nasty. BTW, I have heard the all-purpose 16' referred to as 'the wet fart stop' before today!
Isn't that normally the nickname of the not very good 16' reed?
The Methodists across the road have got through three toasters in the 55 years since the Austin in St O's was rebuilt. The present one seems to be currently in the first flush of youth as no-one is moaning about it yet.
They've lost the tuning book (always a good start). 16 foot Bourdon is the pedal stop, draw-stops for 8 but the Stopped Diapason is shared between the manuals, one 4 foot on the Swell - pleasant enough but no oomph, and a 15th that wouldn't be out of place in the Albert Hall.
Request from incumbent - can I play a transcription of Finlandia on it?
I'm off to lie down in a darkened room now...