Eutychus

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  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Ricardus wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Ricardus wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Ricardus wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Ricardus wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    No, you're not, Eutychus.

    Maybe many of the Shipmates who don't understand that aren't wired for negative instincts or knee-jerk fears? They sound like they've never been uncomfortable with any person's differences, of whatever type.

    FWIW.

    Or possibly people parse emotions differently?

    If I am in soul-searching mode, and notice that I am prejudiced against a certain group, that usually means that I feel discomfort in the presence of that group and would prefer to stay away from that group. In my head, I would categorise that as 'irrational fear' rather than 'hate', because 'hate' (to me) implies a positive desire for harm to come to that group, and so I find it bizarre that people are trying to draw a sharp distinction between irrational fear and prejudice.
    The problem is that you are characterising the difference incorrectly. One could believe all white people have poor rhythm without hating them. It is still a prejudice.
    Irrational fears have no reason for them to exist. One can rationally understand that the feared object is not a threat, and one still feels that threat.

    Not sure what difference you think I am drawing. Obviously prejudice, irrational fear and hate are not coterminous, but they overlap, and this thread seems to be describing what happens at the overlap.

    Regarding your second paragraph and subsequent posts, if you are saying 'irrational fear' should be reserved for clinical phenomena that one might see on a DSM-whatever list, then I agree it is disingenuous to say 'irrational fear' when you mean 'prejudice', but I think most people would use the term 'irrational fear' more loosely.
    Let us go back to the OP and the Purg post which spawned it. Eutychus says he had an irrational fear of transpeople, but an exchange of PM's sorted that out. There is a perfectly good word which describes Euty's state of mind prior to the PMs and that is called transphobia.
    I am no mind reader, but him labelling it "irrational fear" would seem to be an attempt at avoiding applying the more apropos label to himself. And why that matters is two-fold: One is the shifting of agency and the other is that prejudice doesn't disappear so quickly. The remains of that prejudice affect current behaviour, thus DT's creating a Hell thread.
    It doesn't matter if Euty is using the term loosely, it still hides the reality.
    Why employ a loose usage of one term whilst there is a perfectly good one that is way the hell more apt?

    Well I am no mind-reader either, but the explanation that springs immediately to mind is that, on that thread, the meaning and usefulness of the term 'transphobia' were in dispute. So it would make sense to use terminology that was not in dispute.
    Poor choice, then.
    He has said in this Hell thread that he was describing prejudice. If one wished to describe this prejudice without using transphobia, it would be much simpler and very much more accurate to use the word discomfort. Or the even more accurate; prejudice.
    One either has to take him at his word, or his past behaviours on the Ship.

    It's not really taking him at his word, though. It's taking him at a particularly uncharitable implication that you draw from his word. Which is a recipe for a string of 'well if you read what I actually said' posts.

    In general, if someone posts X and I think X implies Y, and Y is a bad opinion, then I would tend to challenge this as a question ('Did you really mean to suggest Y?'), rather than reacting as though they'd said Y all along.
    This sounds reasonable. Except that if you invite someone over and each time they are there, something goes missing, at some point you accept that they are a thief. Repeated behaviour sets a pattern and that is why I am unlikely to give him the benefit of the doubt. Especially when he is part of the problem on that very thread, as DT has pointed out.

  • Talking of being uncharitable with No Prophet is a complete joke. How many anti-trans articles has he linked? OK, this is about Eutychus, I think, it's all so bloody opaque.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    PSA: While it is very tempting, if you're heavily engaged in a thread, to feel that you (an individual on one side of the argument) need to answer every bat-shit crazy post from an ignorant (or potentially malicious) doofus who clearly deserves a smack with the clue bat... someone else can take up the slack if the fight's worth having.

    It's okay to step away, go outside, look up at the sky, go for a walk, read a book (preferably one of mine) and forget about That Person Who Is Wrong On The Internet. We all have our trigger points. Wisdom is recognising what they are. No one who matters will think badly of you if you take a time-out.
    Step outside into a world were triggers are everywhere?
    The Ship is a relatively unique place where sensitive issues can be discussed without one immediately being buried in troll shit. Or at least not completely covered in it.
    One can stay away from a thread, but that doesn't stop one from seeing the title of that thread, so the choice is don't participate at all, or deal with it.
    With race and LGB issues, one will still deal with shite, but at least one feels the Ship has one's back so it helps. Not feeling that with the T.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    PSA: While it is very tempting, if you're heavily engaged in a thread, to feel that you (an individual on one side of the argument) need to answer every bat-shit crazy post from an ignorant (or potentially malicious) doofus who clearly deserves a smack with the clue bat... someone else can take up the slack if the fight's worth having.

    It's okay to step away, go outside, look up at the sky, go for a walk, read a book (preferably one of mine) and forget about That Person Who Is Wrong On The Internet. We all have our trigger points. Wisdom is recognising what they are. No one who matters will think badly of you if you take a time-out.
    Step outside into a world were triggers are everywhere?
    The Ship is a relatively unique place where sensitive issues can be discussed without one immediately being buried in troll shit. Or at least not completely covered in it.
    One can stay away from a thread, but that doesn't stop one from seeing the title of that thread, so the choice is don't participate at all, or deal with it.
    With race and LGB issues, one will still deal with shite, but at least one feels the Ship has one's back so it helps. Not feeling that with the T.

    Okay, so you can't help yourself. Hopefully, other people aren't in such an unfortunate position.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Link to relevant XKCD comic about being wrong on the Internet. Be sure to mouse over the comic, once you've read it.
    It is a relevant comic. Thank you! (What is mousing over it supposed to do?)

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    PSA: While it is very tempting, if you're heavily engaged in a thread, to feel that you (an individual on one side of the argument) need to answer every bat-shit crazy post from an ignorant (or potentially malicious) doofus who clearly deserves a smack with the clue bat... someone else can take up the slack if the fight's worth having.

    It's okay to step away, go outside, look up at the sky, go for a walk, read a book (preferably one of mine) and forget about That Person Who Is Wrong On The Internet. We all have our trigger points. Wisdom is recognising what they are. No one who matters will think badly of you if you take a time-out.
    Step outside into a world were triggers are everywhere?
    The Ship is a relatively unique place where sensitive issues can be discussed without one immediately being buried in troll shit. Or at least not completely covered in it.
    One can stay away from a thread, but that doesn't stop one from seeing the title of that thread, so the choice is don't participate at all, or deal with it.
    With race and LGB issues, one will still deal with shite, but at least one feels the Ship has one's back so it helps. Not feeling that with the T.

    Okay, so you can't help yourself. Hopefully, other people aren't in such an unfortunate position.

    Exactly what is that supposed to mean?
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited July 2019
    Eutychus wrote: »
    @Golden Key I think the extent to which people do this (seek clarification) actually serves as quite a good measure of their good faith in any given exchange.

    In the present circumstances, I think this is pretty much how @Doublethink and I are actually having a conversation here (having overcome one such misunderstanding very early on), whereas trying to engage @lilbuddha sensibly at the moment is a bit like Arthur Dent trying to have a conversation with Agrajag.
    Interesting you should choose that character, because Agrajag isn't wrong.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Ricardus wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Ricardus wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Ricardus wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Ricardus wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    No, you're not, Eutychus.

    Maybe many of the Shipmates who don't understand that aren't wired for negative instincts or knee-jerk fears? They sound like they've never been uncomfortable with any person's differences, of whatever type.

    FWIW.

    Or possibly people parse emotions differently?

    If I am in soul-searching mode, and notice that I am prejudiced against a certain group, that usually means that I feel discomfort in the presence of that group and would prefer to stay away from that group. In my head, I would categorise that as 'irrational fear' rather than 'hate', because 'hate' (to me) implies a positive desire for harm to come to that group, and so I find it bizarre that people are trying to draw a sharp distinction between irrational fear and prejudice.
    The problem is that you are characterising the difference incorrectly. One could believe all white people have poor rhythm without hating them. It is still a prejudice.
    Irrational fears have no reason for them to exist. One can rationally understand that the feared object is not a threat, and one still feels that threat.

    Not sure what difference you think I am drawing. Obviously prejudice, irrational fear and hate are not coterminous, but they overlap, and this thread seems to be describing what happens at the overlap.

    Regarding your second paragraph and subsequent posts, if you are saying 'irrational fear' should be reserved for clinical phenomena that one might see on a DSM-whatever list, then I agree it is disingenuous to say 'irrational fear' when you mean 'prejudice', but I think most people would use the term 'irrational fear' more loosely.
    Let us go back to the OP and the Purg post which spawned it. Eutychus says he had an irrational fear of transpeople, but an exchange of PM's sorted that out. There is a perfectly good word which describes Euty's state of mind prior to the PMs and that is called transphobia.
    I am no mind reader, but him labelling it "irrational fear" would seem to be an attempt at avoiding applying the more apropos label to himself. And why that matters is two-fold: One is the shifting of agency and the other is that prejudice doesn't disappear so quickly. The remains of that prejudice affect current behaviour, thus DT's creating a Hell thread.
    It doesn't matter if Euty is using the term loosely, it still hides the reality.
    Why employ a loose usage of one term whilst there is a perfectly good one that is way the hell more apt?

    Well I am no mind-reader either, but the explanation that springs immediately to mind is that, on that thread, the meaning and usefulness of the term 'transphobia' were in dispute. So it would make sense to use terminology that was not in dispute.
    Poor choice, then.
    He has said in this Hell thread that he was describing prejudice. If one wished to describe this prejudice without using transphobia, it would be much simpler and very much more accurate to use the word discomfort. Or the even more accurate; prejudice.
    One either has to take him at his word, or his past behaviours on the Ship.

    It's not really taking him at his word, though. It's taking him at a particularly uncharitable implication that you draw from his word. Which is a recipe for a string of 'well if you read what I actually said' posts.

    In general, if someone posts X and I think X implies Y, and Y is a bad opinion, then I would tend to challenge this as a question ('Did you really mean to suggest Y?'), rather than reacting as though they'd said Y all along.
    This sounds reasonable. Except that if you invite someone over and each time they are there, something goes missing, at some point you accept that they are a thief. Repeated behaviour sets a pattern and that is why I am unlikely to give him the benefit of the doubt. Especially when he is part of the problem on that very thread, as DT has pointed out.

    It's not about giving them (in general) the benefit of the doubt, but about giving them enough rope to hang themselves. (I do give Eutychus the benefit of the doubt, but for the sake of argument let's assume I'm wrong.)

    Plus, when the boot is on the other foot, my windows of opportunity for posting on the Ship are quite narrow, and I find it frustrating if I have to spend that time doing a mental dot-to-dot puzzle to work out 'How the hell did they get from my post to their post?' Which then makes me less receptive to any valid point the other poster may well have.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Link to relevant XKCD comic about being wrong on the Internet. Be sure to mouse over the comic, once you've read it.
    It is a relevant comic. Thank you! (What is mousing over it supposed to do?)

    You should see a text box with a follow-up line - in this case:
    "What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    PSA: While it is very tempting, if you're heavily engaged in a thread, to feel that you (an individual on one side of the argument) need to answer every bat-shit crazy post from an ignorant (or potentially malicious) doofus who clearly deserves a smack with the clue bat... someone else can take up the slack if the fight's worth having.

    It's okay to step away, go outside, look up at the sky, go for a walk, read a book (preferably one of mine) and forget about That Person Who Is Wrong On The Internet. We all have our trigger points. Wisdom is recognising what they are. No one who matters will think badly of you if you take a time-out.
    Step outside into a world were triggers are everywhere?
    The Ship is a relatively unique place where sensitive issues can be discussed without one immediately being buried in troll shit. Or at least not completely covered in it.
    One can stay away from a thread, but that doesn't stop one from seeing the title of that thread, so the choice is don't participate at all, or deal with it.
    With race and LGB issues, one will still deal with shite, but at least one feels the Ship has one's back so it helps. Not feeling that with the T.

    Okay, so you can't help yourself. Hopefully, other people aren't in such an unfortunate position.

    While this is a truly clever response, and all hail to your intelligence, cleverness, and wit, it does not actually respond to the most important point lilbuddha makes in the post it purports to be a response to:
    With race and LGB issues, one will still deal with shite, but at least one feels the Ship has one's back so it helps. Not feeling that with the T.
  • I wasn't dealing with that point. lB shoehorned hers into a general comment about people knowing when to step away from their computer for a while. Let the reader understand.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Dave W wrote: »
    You should see a text box with a follow-up line - in this case:
    "What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
    That didn't show up. Thank you!

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    And you missed the bit where the real world isn’t a refuge for everyone. In friendly online communities, or at least not overtly hostile ones, the computer is the refuge.
  • You may find something in clouds, birds, flowers, a nice cup of tea, or your favourite music to fight with, this is true...
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Whatevs, bro
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    I wasn't dealing with that point.

    Maybe you should.
  • Sure. Okay. I understand there's a 10-hour version of Nyan-cat on YouTube. I think even lB won't find that triggering.

    Happy now?
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited July 2019
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Sure. Okay. I understand there's a 10-hour version of Nyan-cat on YouTube. I think even lB won't find that triggering.

    Happy now?

    Unworthy. I really thought better of you.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    We'll, I don't know, mousethief. I've been mostly off the site for a couple of months, due to the final illness and death of my mother and am just catching up. Maybe I'm still under the influence of that painful experience? But the 10 hour Nyan-cat repetitive video pretty much resonated with my feelings after catching up with this thread.

    My two pennorth. In my experience, people who have come to personal judgment about previous prejudices are very careful not to repeat them, only too aware of the damage to themselves and others such prejudices have caused. In their interactions with folks still prejudiced in the way they once were, they may well be able to understand but are not very likely to condone.

    And that's how I read Eutychus. And in general being upfront about previous faults is more likely to be a sign of a willingness to be vulnerable, rather than some form of self defence or self promotion. I don't read Eutychus as mimicking the old Charles Atlas advert. "Once I was a 7 stone weakling, but see my muscles now!".

    Of course YMMV, but I'm cutting him some slack. Not out of H&A loyalty but simply because that's how I read this Hell Call. Bite me.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    Bloody autotext correction. Wish I could call that to Hell. The first word should have been 'Well".
  • So sorry to hear about your mother @Barnabas62 - I did wonder if that was what was keeping you off the Ship.

    I don't have a problem with allowing the conversation and exploring issues. generally and transgender. Neither, it appears, do most people on the Transgender thread, see the way Marvin's recent posts were addressed, no shutting down, just further exploration and suggested answers. Where there are problems are allowing that thread in its current form continue in Purgatory and the blinkers on dealing with NOprophet.

    NOprophet seems to be unreasoningly obsessed by transgender and that thread. He seems to be seeking ways to negate or discredit transgender as his way of dealing with a personal issue and he's totally blinkered to the effects he is having on anyone else. This has resulted in him posting offensive material and links, often the same ideas, repeatedly.

    We've seen other Shipmates banned in the past for continuing to post offensive links and/or advised not to post on certain threads if they want to remain on the Ship. NOprophet has had no official warnings or censure. And from the posts we are seeing in the Styx and on this thread it feels as if there is a total blind spot here in the H&As - as a whole, not individually, but Eutychus has been their spokesman.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    from the posts we are seeing in the Styx and on this thread it feels as if there is a total blind spot here in the H&As - as a whole, not individually, but Eutychus has been their spokesman.

    It's me that's been called to Hell here, not the H&As.

    In the above post, you, however, are saying "we". Who is the "we"?
  • I'm not sure which "we" you're challenging. This one?
    We've seen other Shipmates banned in the past for continuing to post offensive links and/or advised not to post on certain threads if they want to remain on the Ship.
    General "we" for something that has happened in the past on the Ship? As in that's something that's happened for people in the past. But if it makes you happier, I'll change that to "I've seen other Shipmates banned ..." and not presume to speak for anyone else here.
    NOprophet has had no official warnings or censure. And from the posts we are seeing in the Styx and on this thread it feels as if there is a total blind spot here in the H&As - as a whole, not individually, but Eutychus has been their spokesman.
    This "we"? OK, I'll change that to: "from the posts I am seeing in the Styx ..." and not presume to speak for anyone else.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited July 2019
    This "we"? OK, I'll change that to: "from the posts I am seeing in the Styx ..." and not presume to speak for anyone else.
    That "we". And not presuming to speak for anyone else would be good too (unless you are, in which case it would be better to say so).

    And if you could manage not to presume that I'm speaking on behalf of anyone else but myself here, on a thread with my name at the top, that would be good too, because I'm not.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    My two pennorth. In my experience, people who have come to personal judgment about previous prejudices are very careful not to repeat them, only too aware of the damage to themselves and others such prejudices have caused. In their interactions with folks still prejudiced in the way they once were, they may well be able to understand but are not very likely to condone.
    In my experience, it varies. Some people are ultra aware and cautious. Others see progress in themselves and think they have completely changed when they have not. Some see finally acting like a decent human as a badge of honour. Some see their awareness as licence to commit venial sin.
    There is no one response.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    Maybe I've been fortunate, lilBuddha? Genuine repentance normally reduces tendencies to self righteousness. I guess that, after a while, we can all forget the impact of the revelation that we've been wrong. I've just seen a lot of folks change for the better.

    Call me Mr Hopeful! Or Mr Naive?
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    Maybe I've been fortunate, lilBuddha? Genuine repentance normally reduces tendencies to self righteousness. I guess that, after a while, we can all forget the impact of the revelation that we've been wrong. I've just seen a lot of folks change for the better.

    Call me Mr Hopeful! Or Mr Naive?
    I've seen people change for the better, I totally believe people can change. I am saying that change is rarely the complete 180 often depicted.
    What we perceive is often a reflection of our perspectives.
    I think, in part, you are measuring the journey from the starting point and I am measuring from its distance from the end.
    Also, I think genuine repentance is a measureless concept. One can be genuinely repentant of an act that one continues to do.
    But I don't think we are necessarily discussing repentance. We are discussing change. and that is a slightly different thing.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    Not really. Repentance includes both remorse and resolve to do different. It's more than just expressing sorrow for wrongdoing. Else self justification and rationalisation produce amnesia about what really happened.

    The measure of repentance is sincerity, both in sorrow and resolve to do better. Missing the mark to some extent is normal of course.
  • I'd say the measure of repentance is subsequent behavior. By their fruits ye shall know them and all that.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    Fair enough. You don't get decent fruit without sincere engagement in the metanoia. I think the fruit is the measure of the commitment to change, to turn away and around.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    That is not how the human mind works, and it misses that one can fell regret and still not completely modify one's behaviour. Especially as regret does not bring full insight into the issue. For instance, one can come to the realisation that racism is bad, truly be sorry and wish to change but still not understand what racism entails beyond the grosser mechanisms. The relevance here is just this.
    What triggered this thread is essentially that Euty has not managed the transition as fully as he thinks and that it affects how he processes posts on the trans thread.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    What triggered this thread is essentially that Euty has not managed the transition as fully as he thinks and that it affects how he processes posts on the trans thread.

    No, what triggered this thread was that accusation.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    What triggered this thread is essentially that Euty has not managed the transition as fully as he thinks and that it affects how he processes posts on the trans thread.

    I'm going to point out here that Eutychus is not a Purgatory host. He, nor any of the other admins, host the thread in question.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    I don't see the evidence to support your specific suspicions and assertions, lilBuddha. But you are of course right that folks may not see all the error of their ways on any specific issue. In terms of Christian belief, repentance opens us up to the benign work by the Holy Spirit known as conviction of sin. That's quite likely to be an ongoing process. The truth is that we cannot bear all the truth about ourselves all at once.

    One of the reasons why it pays us to be very slow in thinking we have a complete handle on someone else's mind. There's a fine line between sound judgment and judgmentalism, and it's best not to cross it. When one finger points at another, three point back at ourselves.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    Maybe I've been fortunate, lilBuddha? Genuine repentance normally reduces tendencies to self righteousness. I guess that, after a while, we can all forget the impact of the revelation that we've been wrong. I've just seen a lot of folks change for the better.

    Call me Mr Hopeful! Or Mr Naive?
    I've seen people change for the better, I totally believe people can change. I am saying that change is rarely the complete 180 often depicted.
    What we perceive is often a reflection of our perspectives.
    I think, in part, you are measuring the journey from the starting point and I am measuring from its distance from the end.
    Also, I think genuine repentance is a measureless concept. One can be genuinely repentant of an act that one continues to do.
    But I don't think we are necessarily discussing repentance. We are discussing change. and that is a slightly different thing.

    what is 'the end' in this context for us flawed and dangerous human beings?
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    I would have to dig through the old ship, and hunt for the relevant threads, if they even still exist.
    I don't think I have a complete handle on Euty's mind, but we all have patterns and I've noted some of his.
    Regardless of all that, this thread was started because DT thinks Euty's past prejudice affects the current way the purg and styx threads are being handled.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Regardless of all that, this thread was started because DT thinks Euty's past prejudice affects the current way the purg and styx threads are being handled.
    You just can't repeat that accusation often enough, can you? Why is that?
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    Transference?

    In asking that question I'm following Ricardus's advice. This thread has genuinely puzzled me.

    Given the ethos of unrest, it is genuinely an ongoing challenge for all Admin to find the right point of balance between censuring jerkish behaviour and allowing free room for comment. I can advise on that, openly now since the rule change, but I don't carry that responsibility directly as a Host.

    The Styx thread was an eye-opener. And in the interval between the 2018 posts and the recent reopening of the thread, Eutychus became an Admin. In July 2018. So his direct personal responsibility for jerkishness started about a year ago.

    So here is a challenge to DT and you. Find me one illustration in that interval which justifies your suspicions and assertions that he has condoned transphobic behaviour. I've looked hard at the Transgender thread from July 2018 onwards and I can't spot anything which would justify your suspicions about Eutychus personally.

    If you wanted to weigh in on all the H and A for a failure to act on posts on that thread that's a different matter. Hosts are free now to announce that they've reported a Shipmate for a Command 1 offence. And Admin collectively take the responsibility for censuring a transphobic jerk. Maybe we have collectively fallen down on that job?

    But why single out Eutychus? I really do not see that he deserves that.

  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    If you find anything substantive I suggest you take it to the Styx.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    I would have to dig through the old ship, and hunt for the relevant threads, if they even still exist.
    I don't think I have a complete handle on Euty's mind, but we all have patterns and I've noted some of his.
    Regardless of all that, this thread was started because DT thinks Euty's past prejudice affects the current way the purg and styx threads are being handled.

    Which suggests a complete misunderstanding of how things work backstage.

    Some of the descriptions of how the speeds at which policy decisions are arrived at don’t chime with my experience at all either. Hosting calls tend to be arrived at quickly. Policy decisions take longer because they impact the whole Ship not just a particular thread or one group. The Crew are deliberating at the moment and will post their conclusions when they’re good and ready.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    If you find anything substantive I suggest you take it to the Styx.
    There are three threads in the Styx and two down here because of the handling of the Transgender thread,
  • The RogueThe Rogue Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Interesting you should choose that character, because Agrajag isn't wrong.

    Agrajag was wrong. He thought Arthur had a vendetta against him but Arthur's appearances at his many demises actually were merely coincedence.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Tubbs wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I would have to dig through the old ship, and hunt for the relevant threads, if they even still exist.
    I don't think I have a complete handle on Euty's mind, but we all have patterns and I've noted some of his.
    Regardless of all that, this thread was started because DT thinks Euty's past prejudice affects the current way the purg and styx threads are being handled.

    Which suggests a complete misunderstanding of how things work backstage.

    Some of the descriptions of how the speeds at which policy decisions are arrived at don’t chime with my experience at all either. Hosting calls tend to be arrived at quickly. Policy decisions take longer because they impact the whole Ship not just a particular thread or one group. The Crew are deliberating at the moment and will post their conclusions when they’re good and ready.
    We only know what you lot say. If you say you are deliberating, then it is not unreasonable for you to expect us to be patient. I have not read the Styx Transphobia thread past where I left it, but I do not remember anything stating that there was current deliberation.
  • TubbsTubbs Admin
    edited July 2019
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Tubbs wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I would have to dig through the old ship, and hunt for the relevant threads, if they even still exist.
    I don't think I have a complete handle on Euty's mind, but we all have patterns and I've noted some of his.
    Regardless of all that, this thread was started because DT thinks Euty's past prejudice affects the current way the purg and styx threads are being handled.

    Which suggests a complete misunderstanding of how things work backstage.

    Some of the descriptions of how the speeds at which policy decisions are arrived at don’t chime with my experience at all either. Hosting calls tend to be arrived at quickly. Policy decisions take longer because they impact the whole Ship not just a particular thread or one group. The Crew are deliberating at the moment and will post their conclusions when they’re good and ready.
    We only know what you lot say. If you say you are deliberating, then it is not unreasonable for you to expect us to be patient. I have not read the Styx Transphobia thread past where I left it, but I do not remember anything stating that there was current deliberation.

    Indirectly referenced on the Styx thread here:
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    We have already taken on board what you (and every other contributor) have said: that has resulted in the collegiate effort to revise the Purg rules. We will continue to keep the rules, all of them, under scrutiny, to see if they are fit for purpose.

    ...

    And you definitely saw that.

    And further up on this very thread:
    Tubbs wrote: »
    Eutychus wrote: »
    It feels for this topic that the Admins are being far slower to act than they have in the past for cases where the issue was sexism or racism (thinking of a couple of recent cases) and that seems to be a lack of knowledge of this issue among the admins.
    From my perspective, any perceived corporate slowness to act has nothing to do with latent transphobia and everything to do with discerning what the appropriate course of action is.

    Pretty much. Particularly after the reaction we got last time.

    Which you may have also seen. Although the comments about speed of Admin action in relation to policy are, as I mentioned before, wrong in my experience. Although sometimes it may not seem that way because conversations on the public boards echo those that are already happening elsewhere.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    If you find anything substantive I suggest you take it to the Styx.
    There are three threads in the Styx and two down here because of the handling of the Transgender thread,

    Why not use the one called 'Transphobia'? in Styx. That would seem to be the best fit.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Tubbs wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Tubbs wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I would have to dig through the old ship, and hunt for the relevant threads, if they even still exist.
    I don't think I have a complete handle on Euty's mind, but we all have patterns and I've noted some of his.
    Regardless of all that, this thread was started because DT thinks Euty's past prejudice affects the current way the purg and styx threads are being handled.

    Which suggests a complete misunderstanding of how things work backstage.

    Some of the descriptions of how the speeds at which policy decisions are arrived at don’t chime with my experience at all either. Hosting calls tend to be arrived at quickly. Policy decisions take longer because they impact the whole Ship not just a particular thread or one group. The Crew are deliberating at the moment and will post their conclusions when they’re good and ready.
    We only know what you lot say. If you say you are deliberating, then it is not unreasonable for you to expect us to be patient. I have not read the Styx Transphobia thread past where I left it, but I do not remember anything stating that there was current deliberation.

    Indirectly referenced on the Styx thread here:
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    We have already taken on board what you (and every other contributor) have said: that has resulted in the collegiate effort to revise the Purg rules. We will continue to keep the rules, all of them, under scrutiny, to see if they are fit for purpose.

    ...

    And you definitely saw that.
    I did. And what it says to me is that “We deliberated and we did something. Now we will wait and see what happens.” Not at all unreasonable if what you did was enough at present. I obviously do not think it was.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    If you find anything substantive I suggest you take it to the Styx.
    There are three threads in the Styx and two down here because of the handling of the Transgender thread,

    Why not use the one called 'Transphobia'? in Styx. That would seem to be the best fit.
    the point was twofold: that a problem obviously exists and that if you do not see it in all that, you aren’t likely too if I add more to it.
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    ...but at least one feels the Ship has one's back...

    Allow me to disabuse you of that notion. The Ship doesn't "have your back" on any subject, from the most inconsequential to the most controversial. The Ship doesn't have a policy stance. The Ship does not advocate for or against any issue or belief. The Ship is not a 'safe space', not a refuge, and despite the best efforts of many posters and a certain demographic drift over time it is not a liberal echo chamber where dissenting views are banned.

    Unless they break one of the (very few) rules, The Ship is not going to silence those who disagree with you just so that you can feel better. To do so would be the very antithesis of Unrest.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    I've done the work, lilBuddha. Eutychus is active on page 29 of the Transgender thread, virtually inactive from August 2018 up to that point. Just have a look at those posts, quote the words which support DT's inference in the OP.

    Or DT can do it. Or another critic. Where does he condone transphobia on p29 of that thread?
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    If you say you are deliberating, then it is not unreasonable for you to expect us to be patient. I have not read the Styx Transphobia thread past where I left it, but I do not remember anything stating that there was current deliberation.
    In addition to the references made above, the latest policy statement on that thread, which was posted well before your most recent posts on it, concludes thus:
    We'll be keeping an eye on how Transgender continues to fare in Purgatory, and reviewing whether other topics currently assigned Dead Horse status might not benefit from the same treatment.

This discussion has been closed.