Manifestations of toxic masculinity and what we should do about it

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  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Why would his life be ruined - wouldn't his "good family and excellent school" support him in continuing his obviously important-to-him studies and similar preparation for becoming (just one timely example) a Supreme Court Judge by 45. His stellar progress would have been delayed certainly - maybe only being raised to the bench at age 50...but his life ruined??
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    I'm on reasonably certain ground in suggesting that any subsequent wife would still view the unrepentant use of prostitutes as a red flag.

    I'm not so sure. Prostitution is (unfortunately) a part of life. A future wife might be concerned if he didn't use protection, but in secular culture why would using a prostitute be a red flag to the average person?
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Perhaps not the use but the telling about it and the tone of voice
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    I'm on reasonably certain ground in suggesting that any subsequent wife would still view the unrepentant use of prostitutes as a red flag.

    I'm not so sure. Prostitution is (unfortunately) a part of life. A future wife might be concerned if he didn't use protection, but in secular culture why would using a prostitute be a red flag to the average person?

    Hahahahaha. Are you actually serious?

    In very limited circumstances the use of prostitutes might get elided. But if you want to know how the 'average person' from a 'secular culture' views prostitution, then feel free to go over to Mumsnet and have a read of the message boards there.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    I'm on reasonably certain ground in suggesting that any subsequent wife would still view the unrepentant use of prostitutes as a red flag.

    I'm not so sure. Prostitution is (unfortunately) a part of life. A future wife might be concerned if he didn't use protection, but in secular culture why would using a prostitute be a red flag to the average person?

    Hahahahaha. Are you actually serious?

    In very limited circumstances the use of prostitutes might get elided. But if you want to know how the 'average person' from a 'secular culture' views prostitution, then feel free to go over to Mumsnet and have a read of the message boards there.

    I am serious. I have met people who have used prostitutes and talked about it as normal. Like having a treat.

    I have no experience of mumsnet so you will have to fill me in.
  • Scene: restaurant
    Occasion: 3rd date

    Man: I often use prostitutes when I'm not dating.
    Man: ...
    Man: Where did she go?
  • US judge says teenager rape defendant from 'good family' deserves leniency.
    [The judge] said that prosecutors should have made it clear to the girl that pressing charges against the boy, who was an eagle scout with good grades, would destroy his life.

    WTF?!
    Not defending the judge at all, but fwiw, the actual appellate decision can be found here. I don’t think the BBC did a very good job of reporting the case. The story itself never even says where in the US this happened. (Only a “New Jersey” tag at the end gives any clue.) The actual opinion never says anything about “leniency.” The only question before the court was whether the state had the right to try the offender as an adult rather than as a juvenile. The case hasn’t gotten any further than that.

    Again, I’m not defending the trial judge. The appellate court has clearly said he was wrong legally, and clearly took a dim view of his analysis of the evidence, which he wasn’t supposed to be considering to start with.

    This judge, btw, is retired and has been called back into service for discrete periods of time. My guess is that will soon not be the case anymore.

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    I'm on reasonably certain ground in suggesting that any subsequent wife would still view the unrepentant use of prostitutes as a red flag.

    I'm not so sure. Prostitution is (unfortunately) a part of life. A future wife might be concerned if he didn't use protection, but in secular culture why would using a prostitute be a red flag to the average person?
    Because prostitution is still seeing women as being primarily about them being providers of sex.
    Because prostitution, even where legal, disadvantages women.
    Because unless it is a job you are happy with your mother, sister and/or daughter doing, there is still a stigma attached.

  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    the 'average person'

    Mumsnet

    The overlap between these two categories is not as large as you imply.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    the 'average person'

    Mumsnet

    The overlap between these two categories is not as large as you imply.

    I appreciate that, but it has a statistically significant and secular readership, and as such, provides a fairly reliable data point.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Why would hiring prostitutes be a red flag to a potential wife? Seriously? Okay, because maybe you really are this stupid and out of touch. It's not just a red flag. It's a deal-breaker just for a first date, never mind a romantic relationship, because a man who purchases sex from women as some kind of normal treat for himself views both as commodities.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    edited July 2019
    Ruth wrote: »
    a man who purchases sex from women as some kind of normal treat for himself views both as commodities.

    This.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Ruth wrote: »
    Why would hiring prostitutes be a red flag to a potential wife? Seriously? ... a man who purchases sex from women as some kind of normal treat for himself views both as commodities.
    Ahhmen. (I think my eyeballs just about rolled out of their sockets when I read that worse-than-clueless post. Seriously?)

  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    I did a few things I am pleased that my significant other does not know about (eg running through a field of standing hay one summer!) but I imagine he has a few too. (Again of that order of magnitude).
    A one-time, before I entered the picture use of prostitutes would certainly give me pause for thought but would not seriously impact on 33 plus years of together if I heard about it tomorrow. Again, (as I said above) depending on the tone and the circs of the revelation. And I would be seriously aggrieved about the "blokes reminiscing at the pub" situation if I heard about it.
    He said he never took part in that sort of conversation anyway. It would come up with monotonous regularity at Army Reserve Duty along with the one about "Scandinavian kibbutz volunteers I have slept with". (Generally exaggerated by a factor of 10, he said)
  • A field of standing hay, huh. You're not related to Theresa May by any chance?
  • stonespringstonespring Shipmate
    edited July 2019
    Interestingly there is currently a debate in the Netherlands about half-criminalizing prostitution - making it illegal to buy sex but not illegal to sell it, like in Scandinavia. The Economist podcast I listened to said that in the countries where this has been tried (moving from having prostitution be legal to having it be half-illegal), prostitution hasn't gone down by much, prostitutes' clients haven't been prosecuted much compared to prostitutes themselves who have been charged with other laws like pimping, sex trafficking hasn't gone down, and prostitutes have had to deal with much more dangerous working conditions (not that any prostitution is safe from violence and other harm). I honestly don't know what side I should come down on in all this.

    But it's interesting given some men's attitudes to the normalcy of visiting prostitutes.

    For a long time, prostitution was given a blind eye because it was a more socially palatable form of adultery than unpaid adulterous sex among socioeconomic peers, right? Although unpaid adultery is still widely condemned, it is easier to do now. Paying for sex, meanwhile, is now widely seen as morally worse than unpaid adultery.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Interestingly there is currently a debate in the Netherlands about half-criminalizing prostitution - making it illegal to buy sex but not illegal to sell it, like in Scandinavia. The Economist podcast I listened to said that in the countries where this has been tried (moving from having prostitution be legal to having it be half-illegal), prostitution hasn't gone down by much, prostitutes' clients haven't been prosecuted much compared to prostitutes themselves who have been charged with other laws like pimping, sex trafficking hasn't gone down, and prostitutes have had to deal with much more dangerous working conditions (not that any prostitution is safe from violence and other harm). I honestly don't know what side I should come down on in all this.

    But it's interesting given some men's attitudes to the normalcy of visiting prostitutes.
    But it si not normal. It will be normal when they wouldn't mind their wives, daughters, sisters and mothers being prostitutes.

  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    But it si not normal. It will be normal when they wouldn't mind their wives, daughters, sisters and mothers being prostitutes.
    [/quote]

    Don't forget sons! I wonder what the married gentlemen who said it was normal for them to patronize sex workers would think if their sons said they would like to work in the field.

    Are you in favor of criminalizing sex work then, either both for the worker and the client or only for the client?
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited July 2019
    I hadn’t forgotten about male prostitutes. At the time of posting, I had a reason I didn’t include them. My half-remembered thought is that it was for clarity, but I’m not sure the logic behind that.
    If one is uncomfortable with every possible sort of loved one being a prostitute, then it still has a stigma that precludes acceptability for other people to be a prostitute.
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    There are a number of jobs that I wouldn’t want my son to end up doing*, but that doesn’t - and shouldn’t - render them unacceptable for anyone to do.

    Not defending prostitution here, just pointing out that I don’t think your current argument from whether a given person would want their own family members to do it is particularly good.

    .

    * = the first two that came to mind were soldier and miner. I’m very glad that someone does those jobs, but I wouldn’t want it to be anyone I love.
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