NOprophet_NØprofit and transgender

24

Comments

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    I don't care about a specific article's merits.
    W.T.F?! If you are citing a source, then you fucking well should. If all you care about is the article making the same noises you are, then why post it?
    The point of posting a link is corroboration, and that is not just some other idiot spouting the same rubbish as you.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    [sigh]

    You know, there's a reason why people complain of being quoted out of context. Sometimes such complaints are nonsense, but sometimes any of us can post a sentence which, taken from the original conversation, can make us look bad.

    NoProphet is well-able to speak for himself, but I personally think he's been misunderstood from his entrance into the transgender discussion. I think his intentions are being misconstrued.

    I suspect the attacks coming at him from several quarters simultaneously have taken him by surprise -- a long-term Shipmate who has engaged civilly and intelligently on a wide variety of topics with little kerfluffle -- so much so he's taken aback. I could be mistaken, but here's how I perceive what's gone on:

    NP raised an issue about transgender concerning a relative. He had questions. He was almost immediately branded as "anti-trans" -- not because he necessarily is, but because some posters on the thread apparently regard even raising questions about transgender as attacks on the very being of those with that status.

    And this issue is being prosecuted not (AFAIK) by any transgender folk; no, it's being prosecuted by self-appointed advocates who seem to suppose -- with no better evidence than that they're decrying -- that every transgender person is out there cowering in their boots, personally torn and shredded whenever they step out of their doors, expecting to be stoned or burned at the stake for existing.

    As already noted, i know very few transgender folks. Those I've known (with 1 exception) undertook the medical, surgical, psychological, familial, and social work of transition; they're not snowflakes. People still in the process of transitioning probably have an even tougher time.Sure, there will be some folks who are extra sensitive. There is still no evidence that the thread has driven away any transfolk. I am concerned we may be driving NP away, and for all the wrong reasons.

    NP's original concerns were about a very specific situation, and (in my view, anyway) his questions were reasonable. Further, that situation could conceivably affect, or have affected, others. That was the concern I understood NP to be raising.

    FWIW, I agree with NP, and have said so. Yet no one has taken me to Hell, called me a bigot, accused me of being a transphobe, etc. etc. (And i rather hope to maintain that status quo.)

    In the face of some hurtful and possibly mistaken accusations, what is NP to do? Anything he attempts to offer in his defense is taken as further proof of his bigotry. I was in primary school when Joe McCarthy was investigating Commies and have faint memories of seeing some of this on TV. I feel I've been watching a similar process here -- about both NP and about Eutychus as well.

    When we reach the point where we can't ask questions in good faith on the Ship and hope for good-faith answers from Shipmates, we're headed down the wrong path. When we start calling people to Hell because in some posters' view, a "conversion" -- which is usually a process, not a lightning-strike -- didn't quite take, we've set ourselves up as witch-hunters.


  • And there's a reason why I don't ask certain questions on the Ship, despite a genuine desire to learn the answers. And that's because after so much stress last year,I'm just not up to undergoing a similar stoning.

    So my discussion sticks to the safe, the banal, and the occasionally boring.

    That's what y'all want for the Ship, right?
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    And there's a reason why I don't ask certain questions on the Ship, despite a genuine desire to learn the answers. And that's because after so much stress last year,I'm just not up to undergoing a similar stoning.

    As sorry as I am about the stress you lived through, I'm sorry to hear we've managed to muzzle a poster for whom I have much admiration.
    So my discussion sticks to the safe, the banal, and the occasionally boring.

    That's what y'all want for the Ship, right?

    Well, I wouldn't describe your offerings that way, LC. I do worry that our floating bubble is becoming an inescapable dome.

  • I do fear it.
  • I took NOProphet to Hell after a year of the transgender thread, when he started asking the same question for the 7th time. He has consistently refused to accept any research from recognised sources of research in medicine from either the UK or the USA, criticising whatever is provided, and has continued to repeatedly find statements and "research" that come from sources seeking to suggest that transgender does not exist and/or that are hoping to cast a bad light on transgender, see this post for a very partial list.

    The most recent questions NOprophet has sought to raise, as suggested in The Styx, are about social contagion and presentation of transgender in adolescence, both of which have been discussed by NOprophet repeatedly. I haven't bothered counting for the discussions about the presentation of transgender in adolescence, but when the average age of presentation in the UK in 2011 was 42, adolescence does not appear to be late. I did count the number of times that social contagion in transgender had been raised by NOprophet and that is four times already, in July, September and November 2018 and January 2019, if it's raised again it will be for the fifth time. Each time there was a discussion about this.

    It has been pointed out that this persistent behaviour of postings linking sites that are either suggesting that transgender does not exist or that are casting transgender people in a bad light, coupled with posts appearing to deny transgender appears transphobic.

    I totally get that NOprophet is working through this after a relative has presented as transgender, but his denial of that individual's transgender status is denying transgender generally and the existence of any other trans or non-binary Shipmate.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    edited July 2019
    Respectfully:

    Much of what I said on the "Eutychus" Hell thread applies here, too. (E.g. this, and this.)

    I have no idea whether or not NP's young, underage (?) relative is trans or not. I wish them, NP, and the family well, whatever the truth is. If there was no (noticed) hint about the young person's situation, I can see why the adults might doubt it. More so if they haven't been around anyone trans, or believe that condition to be mistaken, unnatural, or evil. And, in looking for answers or support, they may well focus on sources which align with their current views. That's what humans tend to *do*.

    I don't think it usually works to present someone with research and stats re an issue; argue with (and maybe insult) the person; expect them to have a full and instant conversion; and rain fire down on them if they don't. Not if you want *real* change.

    Haven't any of you who are decrying NP and Eutychus worked through your own changes? Come across a spreading idea that you just don't/can't accept? Did you ask around about it? Did anyone shut you down? How did that feel?

    Personally, I think it's brave of NP to try Ato figure things out...and it may well be a sign of how much he cares about his young relative.


    Addendum:

    I wasn't sure about whether or not to bring this up, but I will. Some time back, here or on the vintage Ship, a Shipmate posted about a young relative who was trying to sort out some issues, was pushed into defining themself as trans, and was pushed into the surgery *without* the standard "live it first" waiting period, and everything went to hell in a handbasket. Eventually, the young relative decided they were simply *gay*, and their previous gender was their correct gender.

    Maybe, sometimes, it's good to be cautious.

    (I've attempted to fix the links so that they lead somewhere rather than nowhere - DT)
  • No Prophet has consistently referred to anti-trans links. Furthermore, he has repeated some of them, even after they have been criticized. It seems absurd after that to say that he is well-intentioned or meaning well.
  • @Golden Key neither of your links works.
  • CK--

    I just now retried those links, and they worked for me. I used the link in the Quote function, so you get the quote in the edit box. Only way I know to link to a Ship quote without just pasting the quote in.

    Sorry for any confusion.
  • @Golden Key - the date/time stamp on each post? That gives the unique url of each post. I suggest you try that in the test thread in Styx...

    DT
    HH
  • Ahhh, mea culpa (my bad)!

    Thx. Will do.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    There is still no evidence that the thread has driven away any transfolk.

    Grayface left last summer because of it.

    As for complaints that NP is bringing up the same things again and again: stop answering him. Let the damn thread sink. Don't give him someone to argue with. Let. It. GO.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    There is still no evidence that the thread has driven away any transfolk.

    Grayface left last summer because of it.

    Sorry, and thanks, Ruth. I wasn't aware.

  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    First, thank you CK for your response.

    I appreciate your acknowledgement of frustration with what must seem sheer undiluted obstinacy on NP's part.
    I took NOProphet to Hell after a year of the transgender thread, when he started asking the same question for the 7th time. He has consistently refused to accept any research from recognised sources of research in medicine from either the UK or the USA, criticising whatever is provided, and has continued to repeatedly find statements and "research" that come from sources seeking to suggest that transgender does not exist and/or that are hoping to cast a bad light on transgender, see this post for a very partial list.

    Let me begin by acknowledging that the loss of patience you, DT, lilbuddha, and others (apologies if I've left out important others) have expressed with NP is understandable. In your shoes, I might feel the same. But if I may, can I just say where I'm coming from?

    It's my work. Every semester for the last 30 years, I've assigned research papers to first-year college students. (I have no choice; it's a departmental requirement.) I am not a professional researcher; I'm just your ordinary garden-variety English teacher with a background in journalism with the sorts of run-of-the-mill unsophisticated research skills required of a reporter for a small-town daily paper. I give my students free choice of research topics. They're not English majors; they're proto-engineers, nurses in training, wannabe architects, IT specialists, cops, and so on. Students have to print out and/or copy the source material they use, so I can assure myself they're not plagiarizing. End result is that I have read a humongous amount of research material on topics about which I know very little assembled by students who know even less.

    And here's one thing: methodological flaws are pretty common -- or at least, that's a pretty common criticism among folks who peer-review such things. Designing effective studies, particularly of something as complex as GD, to show "XYZ is likely true" has got to be a nightmare. Trying to isolate one aspect of a phenomenon while eliminating other potential influences in a population of potential subjects that's quite small -- well, I'm glad that's not my job.

    Here's another thing: research money is scarce and getting scarcer, and -- pretty much regardless of what you're researching -- competition for those dollars is fierce. It's also political (not usually in the Repub/Dem sense, though that can happen, or even in the
    conserv / progressive sense (more common), but in the academic "my theory is THE theory, and YOUR theory's mother wears combat boots." You'll look long and hard for a discipline in which wars are NOT waged over Who Is Right. Just to get away from transgender for a bit, try reading up on the vicious treatment accorded Gerta Keller by followers of Luis Alvarez over the extinction of the dinosaurs.

    I've taken a look at your partial list and NP's posts surrounding them and wish to comment. First, I don't see a lot of , "Hey, THIS is true" rhetoric from NP. I see questions. I can't speak for NP, but I think he repeats these because he doesn't get actual answers beyond "That's wrong!" I think he's looking for, "Why is it wrong? How is it wrong?" The material being linked to is the "Alvarez" side of the question, and he's raising questions from the "Keller" side: each "side" misses the point of the other.

    The first article from your partial list is by Lisa Marchiano, a transgender-affirming (really!) therapist who advises caution in rushing to judgment when dealing with what some writers label "Rapid Onset GD" in natal female adolescents. Her article deals with one (1) case. Horrific as it is, it's not research; it's merely a cautionary tale on which neither side of any argument should be hanging much credence. Apparently there's disagreement within the field whether ROGD is an actual separate subset of GD. The article quotes one J. Michael Bailey whose research in the early 'oughts' helped established the innateness of homosexuality; not exactly a right-wing view. Latterly he's got up to questionable stuff, but do we want to go all ad hominem here? Yes, the publication is characterized by RationalWiki as "right-wing" and that's where Marchiano's article appears. But the lefty daily for which I, a lefty, wrote, also regularly published stuff straight out of Archie Bunker. Doesn't make my stuff right-wing.

    Oh dear; I'm out of time. I'll come back to the list later.
    I totally get that NOprophet is working through this after a relative has presented as transgender,

    Thanks for that acknowledgment, but . . .
    but his denial of that individual's transgender status is denying transgender generally and the existence of any other trans or non-binary Shipmate.

    I sincerely and deeply believe you're mistaken about this. First, I think he's questioning, not denying, and second, this stance makes reasoned approaches like research impossible, because it disallows the possibility that a phenomenon is divisible into discrete entities.

  • {tangent}

    Ohher--

    Thank you for mentioning the Keller/Alvarez feud! I've heard of some theories, but don't think I ever heard of that mess. I did a search on "Gerta Keller followers of Luis Alvarez extinction of dinosaur". Wow. Bookmarking all sorts of stuff to read. Oh, and gifts emblazoned with "Keller Was Right!" abound.
    :)

    BTW, I don't envy you teaching that class. Yikes!
    (boggle)
  • @Ohher, according to NOprophet, assessing this kind of research is his employment. On that thread he's doing a piss poor job of it, falling into the trap of confirmation bias time after time.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    If NP were honestly* researching the issue, he would come up with more variation than he does. That he relates only dubious sources that speak to the apparently pre-determined POV doesn't speak well of his search methodology.

    *I do not mean he is being intentionally dishonest, much is likely subconscious bias.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    If NP were honestly* researching the issue, he would come up with more variation than he does. That he relates only dubious sources that speak to the apparently pre-determined POV doesn't speak well of his search methodology.

    *I do not mean he is being intentionally dishonest, much is likely subconscious bias.

    Depends on what issue he's researching, doesn't it? Some posters seem to expect him to be researching "what's transgender all about, and how best do I support a relative who is newly transitioning?" An honest search on that topic will yield up a wide variety studies.

    I suspect NP is researching, "Is there any research out there which supports the concerns I / my family have about how my relative's transgender announcement was handled?" That's an entirely different (and much more specific) question, and instead of getting answers, he's being told that asking it is illegal, immoral, unethical, not kosher, and probably fattening.
  • Psychoanalysis unwelcome. Won't go for phrenology either. And I don't have employment. And this topic is not my area which I stated in the first post. And more or less Ohher has it most of it. I hesitated to post anything but it's not fair for others to carry my sh--.

    I've mentioned a few times that I think there's a diverse group involved in transgender. I'm persuaded that for some it's clear from young. For some part of an adolescent identity exploration and might tip either way. For some not about anything clear and the troubles cut both causative directions. I'm unlikely to budge until decent data emerges. None of which means anything because I am obviously a repetitive transphobic asshole. Drill away. Evangelise me another.

    And what Lamb Chopped said, which prompted additionally to post. And it doesn't matter who I know and have known.

  • Ohher thanks for putting a real effort in on an issue that I suspect you don't find engaging. These sorts of attack threads often make me feel sympathy for the target.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Ohher thanks for putting a real effort in on an issue that I suspect you don't find engaging. These sorts of attack threads often make me feel sympathy for the target.

    I'll tell you what engages me: attacking people for asking questions. I'm a teacher in a community college in a rural state which puts insufficient money toward public or higher education. For 30 years I have been turning myself inside out trying to get my students to grasp that learning begins with asking questions, and NOT with supplying correct -- or allegedly correct -- answers.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Ohher wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    If NP were honestly* researching the issue, he would come up with more variation than he does. That he relates only dubious sources that speak to the apparently pre-determined POV doesn't speak well of his search methodology.

    *I do not mean he is being intentionally dishonest, much is likely subconscious bias.

    Depends on what issue he's researching, doesn't it? Some posters seem to expect him to be researching "what's transgender all about, and how best do I support a relative who is newly transitioning?" An honest search on that topic will yield up a wide variety studies.

    I suspect NP is researching, "Is there any research out there which supports the concerns I / my family have about how my relative's transgender announcement was handled?" That's an entirely different (and much more specific) question, and instead of getting answers, he's being told that asking it is illegal, immoral, unethical, not kosher, and probably fattening.
    There is no substantive difference between what I said:
    That he relates only dubious sources that speak to the apparently pre-determined POV
    And what you are saying:
    Is there any research out there which supports the concerns I / my family have about how my relative's transgender announcement was handled?
    An honest exploration would look at the available evidence, filter out the more obvious nutters and then try to draw answers from the rest.
    That is not what he appears to be doing.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited July 2019
    Lilbuddha, can you not give it a rest? Maybe if the topic were sent to Dead Horses, you could ignore it there. But lately I feel like you've become the self-appointed conscience of these boards--and a perfectionist one at that. We are none of us absolutely correct in everything we say and think and do, much less post. But by going after NOprophet and Eutychus and who ever else so incredibly persistently and at such incredible length, you give the impression of a person whom nothing can ever satisfy. And frankly, raise sympathy for the people you are ... persecuting??? Forgive the harsh language, but it's starting to look like that.
  • ...kind of like Javier in "Les Mis"...and that wasn't healthy for him.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Lilbuddha, can you not give it a rest? Maybe if the topic were sent to Dead Horses, you could ignore it there. But lately I feel like you've become the self-appointed conscience of these boards--and a perfectionist one at that. We are none of us absolutely correct in everything we say and think and do, much less post. But by going after NOprophet and Eutychus and who ever else so incredibly persistently and at such incredible length, you give the impression of a person whom nothing can ever satisfy. And frankly, raise sympathy for the people you are ... persecuting??? Forgive the harsh language, but it's starting to look like that.
    I'm persecuting them? By commenting on Hell threads raised by other people? Interesting.
    I like NP. He's generally a decent person, but in this topic he is letting his prejudice guide him.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    lilbuddha, I think there's more than one "apparently pre-determined POV" here. I also think there's daylight between the two positions you list. I believe that NP's posts have been pretty consistently misunderstood and misinterpreted, and that we now have some solid entrenchment in hardened positions rather than any possibility of rapprochement.

    Above all, though, I believe there is more we don't understand, collectively speaking, about transgender than that we do, and that moving understanding forward is best accomplished by discussion.


  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Ohher wrote: »
    I'll tell you what engages me: attacking people for asking questions.
    Absolutely, @Ohher . Me too. My engagement on this topic is nothing to do with my feelings towards any particular minority and everything to do with that.

    Plus everything you put in your above post.


  • Ohher wrote: »
    lilbuddha, I think there's more than one "apparently pre-determined POV" here. I also think there's daylight between the two positions you list. I believe that NP's posts have been pretty consistently misunderstood and misinterpreted, and that we now have some solid entrenchment in hardened positions rather than any possibility of rapprochement.

    Above all, though, I believe there is more we don't understand, collectively speaking, about transgender than that we do, and that moving understanding forward is best accomplished by discussion.


    Really? I think it's best accomplished by listening to what trans folk tell us about what the experience.
  • The problem with the thesis that this is all a general enquiry and interest is the cherry-picking and linking of specific articles. For example here where some Iranian research on brain development is picked up on. Now it was published on the www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov website, which publishes research. Having spent some years searching those sites for information on CFS/ME (CFIDS) a decade ago, I know there will be summary lists of a long series of articles published on a topic each week/month to search through. That's an awful lot of mainstream research being disregarded to cherry pick this one piece of research.

    Most of what is being linked is not research, but opinion articles, often with a slant or coming from reporters or newspapers which are known for posting anti-trans articles.

    And why this Hell thread and not Ohher? That's because in the middle of June several of us posting on the thread were pointing out that the conversation was a repetition of the earlier thread, with the same people and we were about to have the 7th go around on the same ground. For example on here on 16 June, so a year on, we are back to:
    <snip>
    With trans, with children, we see they are affirmed promptly. I think it's out of love and concern, out of kindness. But is it kind and right to just support this with nonadults who are not developmentally ready to solidify adult life structures about so much else? There's desire to not even inform parents. Sure, some parents are hostile. But the vast majority of parents love their children and are not the enemy. Their legitimate concerns for children are dismissed as anti-trans and basically evil. <snip>
    which is a repetition of the challenges and strawmen which had been repeatedly answered
  • <snip>
    Really? I think it's best accomplished by listening to what trans folk tell us about what the experience.
    One of the things that I am finding so frustrating about this discussion, is that those of us challenging the views on these threads are assumed to have no knowledge or discussions with trans people going on in our lives.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    <snip>
    Really? I think it's best accomplished by listening to what trans folk tell us about what the experience.
    One of the things that I am finding so frustrating about this discussion, is that those of us challenging the views on these threads are assumed to have no knowledge or discussions with trans people going on in our lives.

    The fact remains that so far as I know, neither you nor anyone else in the conversation are a trans person telling us about what they experience. You are telling us what you think they experience. However well-informed you are, that is not the same thing by a million miles.
  • But of the out transgender people on the Ship, @Grayface left in July 2018 and someone else I'm aware of has not been active since April (and no, I'm not outing them). Which makes it hard to hear out transgender people's voices here.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    But of the out transgender people on the Ship, @Grayface left in July 2018 and someone else I'm aware of has not been active since April (and no, I'm not outing them).
    What makes you so sure your knowledge is exhaustive? And even if it is, you can't presume to speak for them. @Grayface gave her reasons for leaving, but anybody else could have any number of reasons for not being involved. Those reasons are entirely their own and it is their right, not yours, to disclose them or refrain from doing so.

    Again, with the exception of Crew announcements, each of us speaks only for our individual selves here. Nobody can presume to speak on behalf of other people.
    Which makes it hard to hear out transgender people's voices here.
    This is undeniably true, and a problem, but that doesn't give anybody an automatic right to speak on their behalf.
  • There are, however, plenty of sources on the internet where one may listen to trans folk speaking for themselves, and there has to be a question about why those are not given primacy in any discussion.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    From my perspective, this place works best when the conversation is going on between the people in the room, as it were. "Some of my best friends are gay", for instance, doesn't usually command much legitimacy.
  • Ohher wrote: »
    lilbuddha, I think there's more than one "apparently pre-determined POV" here. I also think there's daylight between the two positions you list. I believe that NP's posts have been pretty consistently misunderstood and misinterpreted, and that we now have some solid entrenchment in hardened positions rather than any possibility of rapprochement.

    Above all, though, I believe there is more we don't understand, collectively speaking, about transgender than that we do, and that moving understanding forward is best accomplished by discussion.


    Really? I think it's best accomplished by listening to what trans folk tell us about what the experience.

    I don't think that's going to happen. And Ohher's suggestions are ludicrous. I doubt if moving forwards will happen by basically circular discussions.
  • There are, however, plenty of sources on the internet where one may listen to trans folk speaking for themselves, and there has to be a question about why those are not given primacy in any discussion.

    The underlying assumption seems to be that transgender Shipmates want to spend their time here talking about transgender issues. When they might actually prefer to talk about gardening, books etc for perfectly legitimate reasons that have nothing to do with that particular thread.

    TBH, I think you're more likely to learn from listening to people talk about their life experiences (pastoral approach) than from reading endless research papers (academic approach).
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Ohher wrote: »
    lilbuddha, I think there's more than one "apparently pre-determined POV" here. I also think there's daylight between the two positions you list. I believe that NP's posts have been pretty consistently misunderstood and misinterpreted, and that we now have some solid entrenchment in hardened positions rather than any possibility of rapprochement.
    I do not think they are misunderstood at all. IMO, your being close to hos position affects your judgement.
    Ohher wrote: »
    Above all, though, I believe there is more we don't understand, collectively speaking, about transgender than that we do, and that moving understanding forward is best accomplished by discussion.
    So why is opting towards the sceptical side better?


  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    Ohher wrote: »
    I'll tell you what engages me: attacking people for asking questions.
    Absolutely, @Ohher . Me too. My engagement on this topic is nothing to do with my feelings towards any particular minority and everything to do with that.

    Plus everything you put in your above post.
    Rubbish. No one is being attacked for asking questions. If this were the case than at least Ohher would have been included in one of the Hell calls. NP is being called to task for rubbish links.

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    But of the out transgender people on the Ship, @Grayface left in July 2018 and someone else I'm aware of has not been active since April (and no, I'm not outing them).
    What makes you so sure your knowledge is exhaustive? And even if it is, you can't presume to speak for them. @Grayface gave her reasons for leaving, but anybody else could have any number of reasons for not being involved. Those reasons are entirely their own and it is their right, not yours, to disclose them or refrain from doing so.

    Again, with the exception of Crew announcements, each of us speaks only for our individual selves here. Nobody can presume to speak on behalf of other people.
    Which makes it hard to hear out transgender people's voices here.
    This is undeniably true, and a problem, but that doesn't give anybody an automatic right to speak on their behalf.
    And yet you are doing exactly that. Any position taken without trans input is defacto speaking for them.

  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    And yet you are doing exactly that.
    Where?

  • I admit I logged out earlier because I felt as if I was being told that I cannot challenge any of the anti-trans tropes because I am not an authentic transgender voice. It felt as if what was being said was that the only people who can challenge the inaccuracies and anti-trans propaganda are authentic trans voices.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    And yet you are doing exactly that.
    Where?
    In te part you cut out.
    Any position taken without trans input is defacto speaking for them.

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    I admit I logged out earlier because I felt as if I was being told that I cannot challenge any of the anti-trans tropes because I am not an authentic transgender voice. It felt as if what was being said was that the only people who can challenge the inaccuracies and anti-trans propaganda are authentic trans voices.
    It does feel that this is what is being said and it is utter bullshit and exactly not how any other topic is treated on SOF.
    Do men here feel OK challenging misogynistic propaganda?
    Do white people here feel OK challenging racist propaganda?
    Do straight people here feel OK challenging homophobic propaganda?
  • I admit I logged out earlier because I felt as if I was being told that I cannot challenge any of the anti-trans tropes because I am not an authentic transgender voice. It felt as if what was being said was that the only people who can challenge the inaccuracies and anti-trans propaganda are authentic trans voices.

    Well, one of the As stuck on LGBTIAA is for Allies, isn't it? There is such a tide of anti-trans stuff in the English media, that I think any ally is welcome. You have the full political spread, the Times has a ton of it, and so does New Statesman. Then the gender critical feminists, fucking Ada. Don't give up.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Any position taken without trans input is defacto speaking for them.
    I have not taken a personal position here on what the best solution for trans input is.
    I think any ally is welcome.
    Are you sure?
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Tubbs wrote: »
    There are, however, plenty of sources on the internet where one may listen to trans folk speaking for themselves, and there has to be a question about why those are not given primacy in any discussion.

    The underlying assumption seems to be that transgender Shipmates want to spend their time here talking about transgender issues. When they might actually prefer to talk about gardening, books etc for perfectly legitimate reasons that have nothing to do with that particular thread.

    TBH, I think you're more likely to learn from listening to people talk about their life experiences (pastoral approach) than from reading endless research papers (academic approach).
    I think it is a combination. Especially because what one learns in life is often rubbish and always filtered through tinted lenses.
  • Ohher wrote: »
    lilbuddha, I think there's more than one "apparently pre-determined POV" here. I also think there's daylight between the two positions you list. I believe that NP's posts have been pretty consistently misunderstood and misinterpreted, and that we now have some solid entrenchment in hardened positions rather than any possibility of rapprochement.

    Above all, though, I believe there is more we don't understand, collectively speaking, about transgender than that we do, and that moving understanding forward is best accomplished by discussion.

    Really? I think it's best accomplished by listening to what trans folk tell us about what the[y] experience.

    Yes. A bunch of non-trans people sitting around discussing transsexuality are unlikely to arrive at any worthwhile conclusions.
    There are, however, plenty of sources on the internet where one may listen to trans folk speaking for themselves, and there has to be a question about why those are not given primacy in any discussion.

    Hear, hear.
    Eutychus wrote: »
    From my perspective, this place works best when the conversation is going on between the people in the room, as it were. "Some of my best friends are gay", for instance, doesn't usually command much legitimacy.

    However, "None of my best friends are gay, none of your best friends are gay, and we are studiously avoiding what gay people online say being gay is like for them" is a lunatic way to go about discussing homosexuality.

  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Fortunately, nobody is suggesting that.
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