Harvest festival is relatively late. However, the agricultural cycle was observed in other ways such as Plough Monday, Rogationtide, and Lammas. To what degree these survived the Reformation varied from place to place, but the Elizabethan Injunctions refer to the Rogations processions and make provision for them. The old custom of celebrating Communion (back in the days of quarterly communion) either the Lord's Day before or after Michaelmas was not unconnected to the fact that it was more or less after the Harvest.
And don't forget the Beating of the Bounds which went on for many centuries, though liturgically doesn't seem to be acknowledged. I think some parishes still do it. Rogation - already mentioned - could be very important, too, to the agricultural parishes. Fasting for a good crop, and all that. Makes it sound as if our modern harvest festivals are a little on the 'lite' side!
Not nekkid, as long as you have a Fair White Linen Cloth thereupon.
At the moment we have that, plus one of those 'mini-skirt' frontals on it, which looks a bit mean. I am not sure that the altar would not look better without it. No matter what my theological convictions might say, my 'catholicky' liturgical instincts are kicking in quite strongly. One snag in ordering stuff for that altar is that it is on the large side - 8'4" - which puts is just beyond what 'ye church supplie shoppes' consider a standard size. This means any purchases have to be made with a hefty mark-up as a custom order.
john holdingEcclesiantics Host, Mystery Worshipper Host
Not nekkid, as long as you have a Fair White Linen Cloth thereupon.
At the moment we have that, plus one of those 'mini-skirt' frontals on it, which looks a bit mean. I am not sure that the altar would not look better without it. No matter what my theological convictions might say, my 'catholicky' liturgical instincts are kicking in quite strongly.
If you can't go full Laudian, at least ditch the miniskirt. Outside the box -- try a length of seasonally coloured cloth across the altar (front to back) a little in from each end, hanging to the floor. Exact positioning depends on the proportions of the altar and the width of the cloth.
@john holding - not sure 'thinking outside of the box' would go down well with my folks, they seem to be aesthetically a fairly traditional crowd. I am tempted by the Laudian fall idea, if I can convince myself that it won't look odd with an altar that has a gradine. Maybe the besting I can do is get my sketch book out and try a few ideas that way.
That sounds a bit like wot some Lutheran churches do...
The folks before us - LCMS - had something that looked like a displaced pulpit fall in the middle of the altar. It drove me nuts as it covered an area about 3' by 9" in the middle, and I used to slip it off the altar when we had our service. Two long do-dads as John Holding suggested would have been considerably better. Oddly, they had always done it that way, as I have a phone of the church in the 1920s with the same sort of arrangement.
With your temptation to conceal carvings behind a frontal, then, you won't agree with my preference, which is that if you have an even remotely attractive table, a fair white cloth and let the table be clearly and visibly a table. Only hide it if it's ugly. And if you have the good fortune to have a quality original Jacobean one, is really outrage to conceal it behind a fancy frontal.
Or are the carvings on your stone one really ugly?
@Enoch - Jacobean Tables were made to be covered - 1604 Canons, though I am all in favour of leaving them bare outside of service time. The carving on the altar here is routine, rather than ugly, being a blackletter IHS in the middle and vine and grapes around the edge of the mensa. I am guessing from the existence of a frontal chest contemporaneous with the altar itself that the architect intended it to be covered at least some times, so I am wondering whether the best route might be a festal frontal for the Christmas and Easter - Ascension cycles and leave it with just the fair linen the rest of the time.
@Enoch - Sorry. there is a bit more to this. The building is otherwise very plain: white walls, dark woodwork, minimal carving. Except for the fact that the altar is stone, it looks a lot like the German Reformed churches of that era except it was built for an LCMS congregation. The place needs perking up, but without betraying the basic sparseness of the interior décor. The main focus is a large dark red dossal behind the altar.
Yes, perhaps some colour provided by altar frontals of some kind (PLEASE ensure they match your stoles/chasubles), along with a judiciously placed icon or three.
Would your congregation accept icons? They often seem to be OK for peeps who might balk at images/statues...and I guess such things are not part of your tradition, anyhoo.
Or, IOW, and reverting to the OP in a way, icons are often found in MOTR (or lower) churches who would never give house-room to a Popish image...
Yes, perhaps some colour provided by altar frontals of some kind (PLEASE ensure they match your stoles/chasubles), along with a judiciously placed icon or three.
Would your congregation accept icons? They often seem to be OK for peeps who might balk at images/statues...and I guess such things are not part of your tradition, anyhoo.
Or, IOW, and reverting to the OP in a way, icons are often found in MOTR (or lower) churches who would never give house-room to a Popish image...
The bit I am having to be careful about is that I have a Central to High CofE background, and my congregation is a mixed multitude - Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Catholics. I still get a nervous twinge when I remember the dirty looks I got for mentioning that the nice high roof was ideal for incense....
Anyway, I am betting that three, possibly four, out of the five groups would be uncomfortable with statues. I am OK with statues unless it yells counter-Reformation at me. Icons would be a safer bet with the MM, but in the space they would need to be fairly large - 2' by 18" (61 x 45cm) - to have much impact at all, and I would fight shy of putting them up by the altar which leaves the side walls. I think most of the MM would be OK with them provided they were not "worshipped or adored."
Frontals seems like the safest place to start. The dossal tends to throw into start relief the fact that the altar is not vested so much so that I wonder if the architect was trying to drop the Lutherans a hint. I wish I could find a picture of the RC church up the road before Post-Vatican II wreckovation because it is by the same architect but half a dozen years later, and I would put money (but not much) on him having planned a very similar altar arrangement there as in the ex-LCMS shack. Guess I need to go and butter their secretary up and see if they have a photo in the office or their archive.
What I am afraid of is some parishioner 'surprising' me with a really naff idea for jollying the place up. However, this is getting to the point where we might perhaps be better off having the discussion in the general questions thread.
The church I attend is hardly undecorated but does have an altar with an Art Deco front. The result is that while most of the time we do have frontals on, there are occasions and even feasts (e.g. Holy Trinity Sunday) when we do not. The photos are basically the same setting ready for worship on Maundy Thursday and Holy Saturday (for the Easter Vigil). In the first, there is no frontal and in the second, there is the best frontal.
What I wonder is if you could introduce a progressive scheme of frontals perhaps suggesting having them for Christmas and Easter and then expand.
Just to add that if you want a hint of what a plain version of that place might look like then you could do worse than look at my former church which is a grander1 slightly older church by the same architects.
1 'Grander' is indeed the word because, despite its plainness, it is larger and has very expensive fittings out. It only has two windows of stained glass but every other window is specialist-tinted french glass. Most of the wood you are seeing is light oak including the floor.
What I am afraid of is some parishioner 'surprising' me with a really naff idea for jollying the place up. However, this is getting to the point where we might perhaps be better off having the discussion in the general questions thread.
I suggest this with some trepidation, but also with the confidence that you can and will if appropriate say “probably not here, thanks all the same”:
If you have artistic—not crafty, but actually artistic—people in your congregation who know how to work with cloth/textiles, clothes made in-house for your space can be A Good Thing.
We are fortunate that we do have a number of talented artists in our congregation (and a thriving arts ministry), and starting about 20+ years ago, we began gradually replacing all of our generic church supply house paraments (mainly falls for the pulpit and bookmarks for the lectern) with custom made items, as well as frontals and antependia for the table. Many are designed to pick up on and compliment architectural aspects of the church, and all are well-made much nicer than anything we could buy. Some are more elaborate, some are quite simple, but they all look like they belong in our church. I know of an Episcopal parish in which members have made needlework paraments.
I recognize not every congregation is so fortunate, but many are. Just a thought.
I have been successful sticking in my heels when it comes to donations of furniture for the new Rain Shelter so far, so extending that principle to dodgy banners, and unfortunate soft furnishings should not be too difficult.
The only idea I have had that I have had to politely 'refer for further consideration' so far was one member was rather enamoured of the idea of putting a Big Six on the altar. I can see precisely where they were coming from because without anything on other than the fair linen, it seems to need either a full height frontal or a Big Six. It is an interesting space as it seems to lend itself more to a very few bold gestures than anything else. It seems that the architect designed a Catholic Church (he was a RC) and then removed the RC specific bits for the benefit of the original Lutheran congregation.
I am actually wondering if a long fair linen, and long pulpit falls and lectern book marks might do the trick most of the year, then we can really tart up the place with a festal frontal for Christmas-tide, Easter-tide and Trinity Sunday, and quietly retire the miniskirts. I think I need to see what some decent pulpit falls and lectern bookmarks will do first. Certainly when I had a long violet fall on the pulpit and the altar with just the fair linen in Lent it looked suitably spare, but not too austere.
Definition - The six tall candlesticks usually found on the high altar in Anglo-Catholic shacks. It works in some buildings and not others. In the Church of My Teenage Years it didn't as the building was mediaeval with the east window's sill about two feet above the altar top. Two of the Victorian Churches across the river had very effect Big Sixes because they had high east windows that allowed them to be introduced without there being a visual train wreck with the bottom of the East window.
Ah! That’s actually what I thought at first, but then something—lack of adequate caffeination probably—made me think it referred to a cloth of some kind.
Ah! That’s actually what I thought at first, but then something—lack of adequate caffeination probably—made me think it referred to a cloth of some kind.
Thanks!
I am actually surprised how many churches, even around here have 'the Six' if not 'the Big Six.' I guess the 'they are office lights' excuse worked even in Low Church Virginia. I know what you mean about being decaffeinate. Waiting for mine to brew.
The Cross was moved sideways from the centre of the front wall to allow for the installation of a pull-down screen. This caused a Degree Of Ruction - but the alternative would have been to have the Cross hidden whenever the screen was in use.
Any accusations of Popery can be easily refuted by our use of wee cuppies with non-alcoholic wine, together with Real Bread, at Communion. And an open Bible on the Table.
Among my tribe, a Moderate Two on or behind the table are quite common. But I've noticed a trend—particularly but not exclusively in newer or newly-renovated churches—toward a Big or Really Big One, set in a floor stand near the table or, sometimes, the font. Sometimes, it's a large pillar-style candle, but sometimes it has the appearance of a paschal candle without the decorations (cross, year, incense, etc.). And it's lit at every service, not just during Easter or at baptisms and funerals.
I usually go for the innocuous two candles and a cross routine of MOTR Anglicanism. Around my way growing up, the few really Low Churches still had the two candles, but they were rarely lit except at Evensong in winter.
I think part of this may be down to the fact that I need a self-help book entitled "Learning to Love Your Stone Altar." They are not really my thing, which is probably the revenge of the very Protestant ancestors!
I actually like the reredos (or at least don't hate them), but can't stand the arrangement of candles and flowers. Indeed, the "two stubby candles and one potted plant on the opposite end of the altar" has always struck me as a Roman Catholic ploy to cause Anglo-Catholic heart attacks. That, surely, is the true sign of rank Papistry!
Ah! That’s actually what I thought at first, but then something—lack of adequate caffeination probably—made me think it referred to a cloth of some kind.
Thanks!
I am actually surprised how many churches, even around here have 'the Six' if not 'the Big Six.' I guess the 'they are office lights' excuse worked even in Low Church Virginia. I know what you mean about being decaffeinate. Waiting for mine to brew.
I don't understand the description 'office lights'. Churches with the 'big six' often use(d) a couple of extra candles which were lit for low mass and the offices, leaving the big ones unlit except for solemn masses. I'd always understood that they, and not the six, were the 'office lights'.
Ah! That’s actually what I thought at first, but then something—lack of adequate caffeination probably—made me think it referred to a cloth of some kind.
Thanks!
I am actually surprised how many churches, even around here have 'the Six' if not 'the Big Six.' I guess the 'they are office lights' excuse worked even in Low Church Virginia. I know what you mean about being decaffeinate. Waiting for mine to brew.
I don't understand the description 'office lights'. Churches with the 'big six' often use(d) a couple of extra candles which were lit for low mass and the offices, leaving the big ones unlit except for solemn masses. I'd always understood that they, and not the six, were the 'office lights'.
From the standpoint of liturgical rubrics, your understanding is correct. But there's a weird American custom of having a free-standing altar with two lights on it, and then six or more "office lights" behind it (often on what had been a retable when the altar was eastward-facing). There is, of course, absolutely nothing wrong with having candles there (rubrics allow, and historical precedent suggests, candles throughout the sanctuary), but I don't like the term office lights.
Mind you, my parish recently had benediction with no lights at all. I'm meant to be one of the parish MCs and really do try my best, but it's not easy. In this case, I was also serving as thurifer and didn't notice until it was too late.
One observation I've gathered from many years. English Anglo-Catholics usually have some understanding of how things are done in other parishes. There are, after all, many more of them, so the likelihood of attending at least the odd patronal festival at another parish are much higher. American Anglo-Catholics (particularly those far from the coasts and major Midwestern shrines) have a pronounced tendency to make things up as they go along, which drives me absolutely around the bend.
Ah! That’s actually what I thought at first, but then something—lack of adequate caffeination probably—made me think it referred to a cloth of some kind.
Thanks!
I am actually surprised how many churches, even around here have 'the Six' if not 'the Big Six.' I guess the 'they are office lights' excuse worked even in Low Church Virginia. I know what you mean about being decaffeinate. Waiting for mine to brew.
I don't understand the description 'office lights'. Churches with the 'big six' often use(d) a couple of extra candles which were lit for low mass and the offices, leaving the big ones unlit except for solemn masses. I'd always understood that they, and not the six, were the 'office lights'.
From the standpoint of liturgical rubrics, your understanding is correct. But there's a weird American custom of having a free-standing altar with two lights on it, and then six or more "office lights" behind it (often on what had been a retable when the altar was eastward-facing). There is, of course, absolutely nothing wrong with having candles there (rubrics allow, and historical precedent suggests, candles throughout the sanctuary), but I don't like the term office lights.
Not just with freestanding altars. The pre-1979 BCP norm in Episcopal churches around here—NC, where the majority of Episcopal churches traditionally haven’t been too high up the candle but weren’t as low as Virginia either—was an attached-to-the-wall altar with two candelabra (“office lights”) on the retable and two taller candles on the altar itself. This is still the arrangement in many (most?) churches around here. Generally, the candelabra have seven branches each, though I know of one church with three-branched candelabra. (In one nearby Episcopal church, the candelabra for the office lights look exactly like menorahs.)
The two altar candles were lit only at services of Holy Communion, while the office lights were lit at all services. This pattern still seems to be generally followed in the older churches that have office lights.
Free-standing altars tend to be found only in newer churches around here; so far as I know, very few older churches have been redesigned or modified to have a free-standing altar. (Typically, there isn’t room within the altar rails.) Generally, the newer churches with free-standing altars seem to have only the two altar candles.
All that said, I know of one nearby Episcopal church with an attached altar that has a Big Six, not two candelabra, on the retable for office lights. Interestingly, it is a church that is (I think) traditionally a little lower on the candle.
I have removed the office lights in all three of the parishes that I have served in the US before St Oddball's usually on the grounds of clutter removal. I am also a bit prone to exiling flower arrangements to stands on either side of the side of the altar, though at St Odd's we just have one arrangement on a stand on the Gospel side to "balance" the credence table on the other side. We also have no seating in the sanctuary (Anglican/TEC use of word) though I am on the lookout for some suitable stools, at which point vested servers, rather than someone just coming up to help be at the offertory, may happen. Again, chairs are out due to the clutter rubric.
Most of the strong influences on me liturgically are out of the Alcuin Club/SSM/pre-WW2 Liturgical Movement stable. It tends to be a bit toned down for the benefit of my 'liturgical Protestant mixed multitude' but it is definitely where I come from. I am not quite the disciple of Dearmer that I once was, mainly because he can get a bit prissy sometimes. That said, I still find his rants about birettas and such like enormously amusing when I have to dip into the Parson's Handbook for some reason.
We also have no seating in the sanctuary (Anglican/TEC use of word) though I am on the lookout for some suitable stools, at which point vested servers, rather than someone just coming up to help be at the offertory, may happen. Again, chairs are out due to the clutter rubric.
Do Episcopal churches in your neck of the woods typically have a chair in the sanctuary (Anglican/TEC use of word) for the bishop? A bishop's chair—noticeably different, often by the taller back (which may have a miter carved on it, or even a canopy) and/or upholstery—inside the rails seems almost universal in older Episcopal churches in these parts, and are often found in newer ones as well. I don't know if it has anything to do with the fact that only 1 of the 3 dioceses in NC has a cathedral, and All Souls, Asheville was only elevated to cathedral status in 1995.
I don't know how relevant it is, but Orthodox churches will all have a special seat for the bishop. Sometimes it's a fairly modest, upholstered chair, sometimes an ornate, canopied throne. I had thought this was a general practice in Christendom east and west.
It's probably not uncommon in older churches, but I doubt if many more recently-built C of E places could (or would want to) afford a 'special chair' for the Bishop. (Our Place has one, but it's devilishly uncomfortable... )
Let him (or her!) sit in the usual seat of the celebrant/president, with the local vicar (or whatever s/he's called) assisting. This is how Our Lord, His Blessed Mother, and all the Angels and Saints, like it.
BTW, this Revelation came to me in a Dream, so it must be True™.
It's often struck me as odd that, in Baptist churches which have a "lower" understanding of Ordination than Anglicans (and no theology of "priesthood"), that the Minister presiding at Communion often sits on a 'throne' which is considerably larger and more ornate than those used by the Deacons who will serve the elements. It seems all wrong, except for the fact that said chair usually has a harder seat and more Knobbly Carved Wooden Excrescences to poke into parts of one's anatomy, which is possibly a sort of penance!
I don't know how relevant it is, but Orthodox churches will all have a special seat for the bishop. Sometimes it's a fairly modest, upholstered chair, sometimes an ornate, canopied throne. I had thought this was a general practice in Christendom east and west.
Interesting; thanks! I don't think I've ever seen such a seat in a Catholic church, apart from cathedrals of course. They seem to just have the seat for the One Who Presides, at least around here.
I don't understand the description 'office lights'. Churches with the 'big six' often use(d) a couple of extra candles which were lit for low mass and the offices, leaving the big ones unlit except for solemn masses. I'd always understood that they, and not the six, were the 'office lights'.
I'm with you on this. I don't know what 'office lights' are, and I don't light any candles when leading the Office (Evening Prayer on alternate Wednesdays). Another officiant refers to the Big Six as "office lights" and does light them for Evening Prayer. To me, the Office is something distinct from Mass and we're not using the altar or even the sanctuary. Once EP is over, I light the two candles on the freestanding altar for Low Mass. The Big Six are lighted for High Mass, plus two candles flanking the tabernacle.
We also have no seating in the sanctuary (Anglican/TEC use of word) though I am on the lookout for some suitable stools, at which point vested servers, rather than someone just coming up to help be at the offertory, may happen. Again, chairs are out due to the clutter rubric.
Do Episcopal churches in your neck of the woods typically have a chair in the sanctuary (Anglican/TEC use of word) for the bishop? A bishop's chair—noticeably different, often by the taller back (which may have a miter carved on it, or even a canopy) and/or upholstery—inside the rails seems almost universal in older Episcopal churches in these parts, and are often found in newer ones as well. I don't know if it has anything to do with the fact that only 1 of the 3 dioceses in NC has a cathedral, and All Souls, Asheville was only elevated to cathedral status in 1995.
I think the Episcopal butt-breaker is an article of faith around here. However, the pre-1900 churches often have a pair of chairs at either end of the altar, which is a relic of north ending days in VA. In that case the bishop's butt-breaker is against the north wall of the sanctuary where it can be in the way if you have an assistant when administering communion.
Cathedrals are bit of an after thought in TEC. The oldest ones are 1850s and basically products of the Oxford Movement. Definitely protestant dioceses tended not to have one. Virginia has Shrine Mont which is an open air "cathedral" at the summer camp at Orkney Springs, but SW Va, and Southern Va. did not have cathedrals the last time I checked. NC tends to be more centre-Low than Low, but there was a similar reluctance there. SC was also fairly late getting on the cathedral bandwagon.
We also have no seating in the sanctuary (Anglican/TEC use of word) though I am on the lookout for some suitable stools, at which point vested servers, rather than someone just coming up to help be at the offertory, may happen. Again, chairs are out due to the clutter rubric.
Do Episcopal churches in your neck of the woods typically have a chair in the sanctuary (Anglican/TEC use of word) for the bishop? A bishop's chair—noticeably different, often by the taller back (which may have a miter carved on it, or even a canopy) and/or upholstery—inside the rails seems almost universal in older Episcopal churches in these parts, and are often found in newer ones as well. I don't know if it has anything to do with the fact that only 1 of the 3 dioceses in NC has a cathedral, and All Souls, Asheville was only elevated to cathedral status in 1995.
I think the Episcopal butt-breaker is an article of faith around here. However, the pre-1900 churches often have a pair of chairs at either end of the altar, which is a relic of north ending days in VA. In that case the bishop's butt-breaker is against the north wall of the sanctuary where it can be in the way if you have an assistant when administering communion.
Cathedrals are bit of an after thought in TEC. The oldest ones are 1850s and basically products of the Oxford Movement. Definitely protestant dioceses tended not to have one. Virginia has Shrine Mont which is an open air "cathedral" at the summer camp at Orkney Springs, but SW Va, and Southern Va. did not have cathedrals the last time I checked. NC tends to be more centre-Low than Low, but there was a similar reluctance there. SC was also fairly late getting on the cathedral bandwagon.
Some TEC dioceses still don't have cathedrals. West Texas is one of them. Or, technically, the cathedral is a tiny chapel adjacent to the bishop's offices. But, for obvious reasons, this is not used for major diocesan services, which are always held in one of the larger parish churches or in a large school chapel.
We also have no seating in the sanctuary (Anglican/TEC use of word) though I am on the lookout for some suitable stools, at which point vested servers, rather than someone just coming up to help be at the offertory, may happen. Again, chairs are out due to the clutter rubric.
Do Episcopal churches in your neck of the woods typically have a chair in the sanctuary (Anglican/TEC use of word) for the bishop? A bishop's chair—noticeably different, often by the taller back (which may have a miter carved on it, or even a canopy) and/or upholstery—inside the rails seems almost universal in older Episcopal churches in these parts, and are often found in newer ones as well. I don't know if it has anything to do with the fact that only 1 of the 3 dioceses in NC has a cathedral, and All Souls, Asheville was only elevated to cathedral status in 1995.
I think the Episcopal butt-breaker . . . .
NC tends to be more centre-Low than Low, but there was a similar reluctance there.
The first two bishops of NC had clear sympathies with the Oxford Movement; the second founded a community in western NC (the Order of the Holy Cross in Valle Crucis, which disbanded after a few years, though the church and lands are still there and are used as an Episcopal retreat center) and eventually swam the Tiber. The diocesan convention chose not to react to that by swinging the pendulum completely to the Low side, but rather elected succeeding bishops who were somewhere in the middle.
Some TEC dioceses still don't have cathedrals. West Texas is one of them. Or, technically, the cathedral is a tiny chapel adjacent to the bishop's offices. But, for obvious reasons, this is not used for major diocesan services, which are always held in one of the larger parish churches or in a large school chapel.
Philadelphia had a lovely Episcopal cathedral until around 2000 when the rector vandalized the interior according to some pet theory of his, stuccoing the walls and throwing out all the artwork and furniture.
I can't think of an Anglican church that I've been to here (save for tiny ones in remote country areas) that does not have a throne for the bishop - regardless of churchmanship. Usually a large wooden one with a tall back on the southern side of the sanctuary, and always a purple cushion.
Did the pre-Vatican II RCC have special chairs to be used only by visiting bishops in parish churches aside from the Cathedral?
Where did the Episcopal Church get this practice from? The Church of England? Or just from the practice of bishops going from parish to parish to minister without having a cathedral?
Vatican II liturgical theology (I think) regards the chair of the presider as one of the key centers of liturgical action (along with the altar and the ambo - which in Vatican II terminology usually refers to the pulpit or lectern), and it is where the presider should (I know this differs in practice) conduct the penitential rite, pray the collect and prayer after communion, and give the blessing during the concluding rite). I think it's supposed to symbolize not only the presider's role as a representative of Christ (Christ is also represented in the Eucharist, in the Word proclaimed, and in the congregation), but also the presider's role as a representative of the bishop. That is why, coming from a Vatican II Catholic background, it strikes me as so odd that Episcopal churches have these chairs for the bishop that are left empty during Eucharists when the bishop is absent.
I get that the Orthodox see this differently. What is the reason for them for why the cathedra in non-cathedral churches can only be occupied by the bishop?
I'm not sure of the Episcopal liturgical theology behind all this, both traditionally and following the mid-twentieth century liturgical movement.
Wasn't it the norm before Vatican II for a bishop to "preside" over most masses he attended sitting in choir robes (not the robes of a singer in the choir, mind you ) the biggest chair but not being the "celebrant" at the altar (back then at most masses there was only one celebrant, and it wasn't really until Vatican II that there was much talk about the whole congregation also being celebrants in a sense, just not in the same way as the celebrating priest(s)). I guess the bishop was only supposed to celebrate if it was a pontifical high mass, which almost never happened. I don't get the reasoning behind this, although there was a reason. Something like this happened in a Novus Ordo mass at Ted Kennedy's funeral, although that was mostly because of the politics of abortion, I imagine. (Not a Dead Horse thread, I get it.)
Comments
And don't forget the Beating of the Bounds which went on for many centuries, though liturgically doesn't seem to be acknowledged. I think some parishes still do it. Rogation - already mentioned - could be very important, too, to the agricultural parishes. Fasting for a good crop, and all that. Makes it sound as if our modern harvest festivals are a little on the 'lite' side!
At the moment we have that, plus one of those 'mini-skirt' frontals on it, which looks a bit mean. I am not sure that the altar would not look better without it. No matter what my theological convictions might say, my 'catholicky' liturgical instincts are kicking in quite strongly. One snag in ordering stuff for that altar is that it is on the large side - 8'4" - which puts is just beyond what 'ye church supplie shoppes' consider a standard size. This means any purchases have to be made with a hefty mark-up as a custom order.
If you can't go full Laudian, at least ditch the miniskirt. Outside the box -- try a length of seasonally coloured cloth across the altar (front to back) a little in from each end, hanging to the floor. Exact positioning depends on the proportions of the altar and the width of the cloth.
The folks before us - LCMS - had something that looked like a displaced pulpit fall in the middle of the altar. It drove me nuts as it covered an area about 3' by 9" in the middle, and I used to slip it off the altar when we had our service. Two long do-dads as John Holding suggested would have been considerably better. Oddly, they had always done it that way, as I have a phone of the church in the 1920s with the same sort of arrangement.
Or are the carvings on your stone one really ugly?
Yes, perhaps some colour provided by altar frontals of some kind (PLEASE ensure they match your stoles/chasubles), along with a judiciously placed icon or three.
Would your congregation accept icons? They often seem to be OK for peeps who might balk at images/statues...and I guess such things are not part of your tradition, anyhoo.
Or, IOW, and reverting to the OP in a way, icons are often found in MOTR (or lower) churches who would never give house-room to a Popish image...
The bit I am having to be careful about is that I have a Central to High CofE background, and my congregation is a mixed multitude - Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Catholics. I still get a nervous twinge when I remember the dirty looks I got for mentioning that the nice high roof was ideal for incense....
Anyway, I am betting that three, possibly four, out of the five groups would be uncomfortable with statues. I am OK with statues unless it yells counter-Reformation at me. Icons would be a safer bet with the MM, but in the space they would need to be fairly large - 2' by 18" (61 x 45cm) - to have much impact at all, and I would fight shy of putting them up by the altar which leaves the side walls. I think most of the MM would be OK with them provided they were not "worshipped or adored."
Frontals seems like the safest place to start. The dossal tends to throw into start relief the fact that the altar is not vested so much so that I wonder if the architect was trying to drop the Lutherans a hint. I wish I could find a picture of the RC church up the road before Post-Vatican II wreckovation because it is by the same architect but half a dozen years later, and I would put money (but not much) on him having planned a very similar altar arrangement there as in the ex-LCMS shack. Guess I need to go and butter their secretary up and see if they have a photo in the office or their archive.
What I am afraid of is some parishioner 'surprising' me with a really naff idea for jollying the place up. However, this is getting to the point where we might perhaps be better off having the discussion in the general questions thread.
What I wonder is if you could introduce a progressive scheme of frontals perhaps suggesting having them for Christmas and Easter and then expand.
1 'Grander' is indeed the word because, despite its plainness, it is larger and has very expensive fittings out. It only has two windows of stained glass but every other window is specialist-tinted french glass. Most of the wood you are seeing is light oak including the floor.
If you have artistic—not crafty, but actually artistic—people in your congregation who know how to work with cloth/textiles, clothes made in-house for your space can be A Good Thing.
We are fortunate that we do have a number of talented artists in our congregation (and a thriving arts ministry), and starting about 20+ years ago, we began gradually replacing all of our generic church supply house paraments (mainly falls for the pulpit and bookmarks for the lectern) with custom made items, as well as frontals and antependia for the table. Many are designed to pick up on and compliment architectural aspects of the church, and all are well-made much nicer than anything we could buy. Some are more elaborate, some are quite simple, but they all look like they belong in our church. I know of an Episcopal parish in which members have made needlework paraments.
I recognize not every congregation is so fortunate, but many are. Just a thought.
The only idea I have had that I have had to politely 'refer for further consideration' so far was one member was rather enamoured of the idea of putting a Big Six on the altar. I can see precisely where they were coming from because without anything on other than the fair linen, it seems to need either a full height frontal or a Big Six. It is an interesting space as it seems to lend itself more to a very few bold gestures than anything else. It seems that the architect designed a Catholic Church (he was a RC) and then removed the RC specific bits for the benefit of the original Lutheran congregation.
I am actually wondering if a long fair linen, and long pulpit falls and lectern book marks might do the trick most of the year, then we can really tart up the place with a festal frontal for Christmas-tide, Easter-tide and Trinity Sunday, and quietly retire the miniskirts. I think I need to see what some decent pulpit falls and lectern bookmarks will do first. Certainly when I had a long violet fall on the pulpit and the altar with just the fair linen in Lent it looked suitably spare, but not too austere.
My brain inserted a letter N in violet and I was worried.
I'll get me hourglass.
Definition - The six tall candlesticks usually found on the high altar in Anglo-Catholic shacks. It works in some buildings and not others. In the Church of My Teenage Years it didn't as the building was mediaeval with the east window's sill about two feet above the altar top. Two of the Victorian Churches across the river had very effect Big Sixes because they had high east windows that allowed them to be introduced without there being a visual train wreck with the bottom of the East window.
Thanks!
I am actually surprised how many churches, even around here have 'the Six' if not 'the Big Six.' I guess the 'they are office lights' excuse worked even in Low Church Virginia. I know what you mean about being decaffeinate. Waiting for mine to brew.
I believe that round here that would be considered Rank Papism.
Why, we didn't even have a CROSS visible anywhere in the building! Sacred symbol of our redemption? No, Popery, rank Popery!!
Any accusations of Popery can be easily refuted by our use of wee cuppies with non-alcoholic wine, together with Real Bread, at Communion. And an open Bible on the Table.
Well, we are an Ecumenical church!
Looks good. The reredos thing on the other hand ........
https://sites.google.com/site/wirralhha/wirral-heritage-open-days-events---group-2/holy-apostles/Holy%20Apostles%20%26%20Martyrs%20Parish%20Church.JPG?attredirects=0
I actually like the reredos (or at least don't hate them), but can't stand the arrangement of candles and flowers. Indeed, the "two stubby candles and one potted plant on the opposite end of the altar" has always struck me as a Roman Catholic ploy to cause Anglo-Catholic heart attacks. That, surely, is the true sign of rank Papistry!
I don't understand the description 'office lights'. Churches with the 'big six' often use(d) a couple of extra candles which were lit for low mass and the offices, leaving the big ones unlit except for solemn masses. I'd always understood that they, and not the six, were the 'office lights'.
From the standpoint of liturgical rubrics, your understanding is correct. But there's a weird American custom of having a free-standing altar with two lights on it, and then six or more "office lights" behind it (often on what had been a retable when the altar was eastward-facing). There is, of course, absolutely nothing wrong with having candles there (rubrics allow, and historical precedent suggests, candles throughout the sanctuary), but I don't like the term office lights.
Mind you, my parish recently had benediction with no lights at all. I'm meant to be one of the parish MCs and really do try my best, but it's not easy. In this case, I was also serving as thurifer and didn't notice until it was too late.
One observation I've gathered from many years. English Anglo-Catholics usually have some understanding of how things are done in other parishes. There are, after all, many more of them, so the likelihood of attending at least the odd patronal festival at another parish are much higher. American Anglo-Catholics (particularly those far from the coasts and major Midwestern shrines) have a pronounced tendency to make things up as they go along, which drives me absolutely around the bend.
The two altar candles were lit only at services of Holy Communion, while the office lights were lit at all services. This pattern still seems to be generally followed in the older churches that have office lights.
Free-standing altars tend to be found only in newer churches around here; so far as I know, very few older churches have been redesigned or modified to have a free-standing altar. (Typically, there isn’t room within the altar rails.) Generally, the newer churches with free-standing altars seem to have only the two altar candles.
All that said, I know of one nearby Episcopal church with an attached altar that has a Big Six, not two candelabra, on the retable for office lights. Interestingly, it is a church that is (I think) traditionally a little lower on the candle.
Most of the strong influences on me liturgically are out of the Alcuin Club/SSM/pre-WW2 Liturgical Movement stable. It tends to be a bit toned down for the benefit of my 'liturgical Protestant mixed multitude' but it is definitely where I come from. I am not quite the disciple of Dearmer that I once was, mainly because he can get a bit prissy sometimes. That said, I still find his rants about birettas and such like enormously amusing when I have to dip into the Parson's Handbook for some reason.
Let him (or her!) sit in the usual seat of the celebrant/president, with the local vicar (or whatever s/he's called) assisting. This is how Our Lord, His Blessed Mother, and all the Angels and Saints, like it.
BTW, this Revelation came to me in a Dream, so it must be True™.
Yes, maybe the Uncomfy Chairs are there to remind Bishops, and others of High Office, of their painful, but shared, mortality...
After all, Our Blessed Lord wore the cross. On his back.
I'm with you on this. I don't know what 'office lights' are, and I don't light any candles when leading the Office (Evening Prayer on alternate Wednesdays). Another officiant refers to the Big Six as "office lights" and does light them for Evening Prayer. To me, the Office is something distinct from Mass and we're not using the altar or even the sanctuary. Once EP is over, I light the two candles on the freestanding altar for Low Mass. The Big Six are lighted for High Mass, plus two candles flanking the tabernacle.
Cathedrals are bit of an after thought in TEC. The oldest ones are 1850s and basically products of the Oxford Movement. Definitely protestant dioceses tended not to have one. Virginia has Shrine Mont which is an open air "cathedral" at the summer camp at Orkney Springs, but SW Va, and Southern Va. did not have cathedrals the last time I checked. NC tends to be more centre-Low than Low, but there was a similar reluctance there. SC was also fairly late getting on the cathedral bandwagon.
Some TEC dioceses still don't have cathedrals. West Texas is one of them. Or, technically, the cathedral is a tiny chapel adjacent to the bishop's offices. But, for obvious reasons, this is not used for major diocesan services, which are always held in one of the larger parish churches or in a large school chapel.
The first two bishops of NC had clear sympathies with the Oxford Movement; the second founded a community in western NC (the Order of the Holy Cross in Valle Crucis, which disbanded after a few years, though the church and lands are still there and are used as an Episcopal retreat center) and eventually swam the Tiber. The diocesan convention chose not to react to that by swinging the pendulum completely to the Low side, but rather elected succeeding bishops who were somewhere in the middle.
Here, the chapel of a well-known university historically related to the Methodist Church is often used.
Where did the Episcopal Church get this practice from? The Church of England? Or just from the practice of bishops going from parish to parish to minister without having a cathedral?
Vatican II liturgical theology (I think) regards the chair of the presider as one of the key centers of liturgical action (along with the altar and the ambo - which in Vatican II terminology usually refers to the pulpit or lectern), and it is where the presider should (I know this differs in practice) conduct the penitential rite, pray the collect and prayer after communion, and give the blessing during the concluding rite). I think it's supposed to symbolize not only the presider's role as a representative of Christ (Christ is also represented in the Eucharist, in the Word proclaimed, and in the congregation), but also the presider's role as a representative of the bishop. That is why, coming from a Vatican II Catholic background, it strikes me as so odd that Episcopal churches have these chairs for the bishop that are left empty during Eucharists when the bishop is absent.
I get that the Orthodox see this differently. What is the reason for them for why the cathedra in non-cathedral churches can only be occupied by the bishop?
I'm not sure of the Episcopal liturgical theology behind all this, both traditionally and following the mid-twentieth century liturgical movement.
Wasn't it the norm before Vatican II for a bishop to "preside" over most masses he attended sitting in choir robes (not the robes of a singer in the choir, mind you