Is Central Churchmanship Dying Out?

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  • ECraigRECraigR Castaway
    I didn’t mean to imply that I personally am seeing an increase, merely that it has been reported that there’s been an increase in attendance and interest in AC practices.

    As far as practices go, the cathedral I attend does everything you asked about except dedicate the Mass to someone. I’ve been given to understand that we’re not unusual among congregations that self-identify as AC for doing so.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    The list of A-C identifiers is shorter than it use to be because some of what were once distinctive Anglo-Catholic touches - such as Mass vestments, wafer bread, mixed chalice, singing of the Benedictus qui and the Agnus Dei, have gone mainstream. Prayer for the dead, as opposed to thanksgiving for the Faithful Departed, Marianism, and asking the prayers of the saints would still count as A-C. There is also a distinctive A-C style of furnishing a church, which depends on the era of the church's construction, but greater is a milder form of pre-Vatican II Rome.

    These days, of course, a lot of English A-C parishes are indistinguishable from the more strongly liturgical MOTR parishes except they are a bit more conscientious about elevation and genuflection, and they'll throw in a reference to Our Lady, ask for the Prayers of the Saints, and chuck in the Angelus at the end if it is anywhere near midday. The Lord's Supper will tend to be celebrated a bit for frequently in the week, but there are nowhere near as many Daily Eucharists as there used to be.
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    PDR wrote: »
    Prayer for the dead, as opposed to thanksgiving for the Faithful Departed, ...would still count as A-C.
    You mean even in the sense of reading the names of recently departed/ year's mind, and saying 'may the souls of the faithful...'? I would have thought that was pretty mainstream myself.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    There's an alternative way of describing this.

    One could say that having lived through Series II, Series 3, the ASB and Common Worship, the party shibboleths of the late nineteenth century and the 1920s have lost much of their defining power. Although Common Worship provides options for them, most evangelicals who were rigidly 1662 have retired. Those who actually quite like Common Worship aren't as bothered about some of the things their predecessors used to get steamed up about. So they don't much mind candles, wear robes, though with a preference for simplicity, and have little if no aversion to some of the things that used to be party markers.

    There is though a 'different difference' between people who prefer liturgy and people who either don't get it or look for every opportunity to junk it.

    But then, on the AC side, there are
    • those who yearn that everything should be as it was in Dear Father Spike's time, even though the Romans have abolished most of it,
    • those who model themselves on current Roman practice - in London some of them even illegally use the Roman mass in stead of their own - and
    • those who actually quite like the rather more Cath options in Common Worship, make full use of Times and Seasons on every occasion, and have even bought and use the much more expensive President's Edition with its leather cover and music.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    angloid wrote: »
    PDR wrote: »
    Prayer for the dead, as opposed to thanksgiving for the Faithful Departed, ...would still count as A-C.
    You mean even in the sense of reading the names of recently departed/ year's mind, and saying 'may the souls of the faithful...'? I would have thought that was pretty mainstream myself.

    @angloid - I'd regard that as fairly mainstream too provided it doesn't go much beyond the mention of recently departed parishioners. If they start going OTT with it around November 2nd that might be a bit more on the A-C side. Monthly requiem definitely get on the A-C side ;)

    @Enoch - yes, I think you have pretty much hit the nail on the head. The parish I grew up in was basically one of those that embraced the ASB, and then the supplemental material that came out for that book, and they have done much the same with CW. Though by way of disclaimer, I did get monumentally confused in training and am basically the clergy equivalent of the confused pooch who brings in the newspaper and then poops on it. The big influences during my formation were either 1662 committed Evangelicals, or modern liturgy Anglo-Catholics. I don't think any of the Evangelical names would ring a bell, but Fr./Bishop/Msgr. Edwin Barnes was someone who had a decent amount of influence on me at one stage.
  • ECraigRECraigR Castaway
    We’ve been trying to do monthly requiems! But we don’t have black vestments :neutral:
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited July 2019
    My old parish had a black set. I wonder if my successor has worked out what they are for yet. Under current rules from Mama Roma violet is acceptable. Strangely enough, it was also acceptable under the old rules if you were short a black set.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    In CofE terms, a requiem in any other context than an actual funeral would be stratospherically AC.

    For those in other parts of the world or other ecclesiastical households, by the way, the majority of CofE funerals are not requiems. However, when a CofE funeral includes Holy Communion, the congregation are invited to communicate and expect to do so.

    The idea of a 'specific intention' for a Eucharist, which @stonespring referred to a few posts back is not really a part of how most CofE clergy or laity understand or experience the Eucharistic.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    The idea of a 'specific intention' for a Eucharist, which @stonespring referred to a few posts back is not really a part of how most CofE clergy or laity understand or experience the Eucharistic.

    Granted, in many of the MOTR suburban RC parishes without many immigrants here in the US, mass intentions are printed in the bulletin - with many masses often being blank because no one has requested an intention - but aren't mentioned during the mass, either because the priest forgets or because he just isn't in the habit of doing it. When the mass intention is mentioned, it's often done during the prayers of the faithful or at the very beginning, rather than during the Eucharistic Prayer which is the one place you would think a mass intention would be mentioned! But it's a bit much to ask many priests to do anything else but charge through Eucharistic Prayer II on autopilot without stopping at the designated point to think if there is a mass intention or not. Those priests who do make a point of mentioning mass intentions during the EP often either clip a card into the missal to remember it or they put a card onto the altar to glance at at the appropriate time.

    Is there a rule in the RCC prohibiting specific intentions for Sunday masses? Because I have certainly seen them at Sunday masses. I don't know where I remember reading that they are not allowed. I think they are still allowed at Saturday evening vigil masses, which count as Sunday masses, but not on masses on Sunday itself, which is interesting.
  • Is there a rule in the RCC prohibiting specific intentions for Sunday masses? Because I have certainly seen them at Sunday masses. I don't know where I remember reading that they are not allowed. I think they are still allowed at Saturday evening vigil masses, which count as Sunday masses, but not on masses on Sunday itself, which is interesting.
    I may be wrong on this, but I think that the rule is that at least one Sunday Mass must be offered for the intentions of all members of the parish, rather than for a specific intention. Perhaps that’s what you’re thinking of?

  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    I think indeed that that is what stonespring has in mind. One of the Masses on Sundays and holydays of obligation must be 'pro populo' 'for the people of the parish'.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Back when the dinosaurs roamed and the insanely A-C priest who trained me was train the intention of the Mass was announced either at the very, very beginning, or at the offertory usually just before "Brethren, pray..." It could not be mentioned in the EP - Canon as it was called then - because the Canon is by definition invariable, apart IIRC for the Communicates, and they ain't in the Interim Rite Canon, honest guv!
  • PDR wrote: »
    Back when the dinosaurs roamed and the insanely A-C priest who trained me was train the intention of the Mass was announced either at the very, very beginning, or at the offertory usually just before "Brethren, pray..." It could not be mentioned in the EP - Canon as it was called then - because the Canon is by definition invariable, apart IIRC for the Communicates, and they ain't in the Interim Rite Canon, honest guv!

    By Canon, do you mean the Roman Canon? Doesn't that have specific parts in the Commemoration of the Living and the Commemoration of the Dead to pray for specific people (silently originally (?) but now in the Ordinary Form I think it can be (or is supposed to be?) out loud)? Isn't this when the intention of the mass would be included?
  • We seem to have strayed just a bit from central CofE churchmanship ...
  • In my experience, mass intentions are a bit different in Roman Catholic and Anglo-Catholic parishes. In Roman Catholics parishes, they are generally for a specific person's intention (usually a departed loved one). In Anglo-Catholic parishes, they are more likely to be for general causes like "theological colleges" or "homelessness charities."
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    PDR wrote: »
    Back when the dinosaurs roamed and the insanely A-C priest who trained me was train the intention of the Mass was announced either at the very, very beginning, or at the offertory usually just before "Brethren, pray..." It could not be mentioned in the EP - Canon as it was called then - because the Canon is by definition invariable, apart IIRC for the Communicates, and they ain't in the Interim Rite Canon, honest guv!

    By Canon, do you mean the Roman Canon? Doesn't that have specific parts in the Commemoration of the Living and the Commemoration of the Dead to pray for specific people (silently originally (?) but now in the Ordinary Form I think it can be (or is supposed to be?) out loud)? Isn't this when the intention of the mass would be included?

    No, the use of the communicates was prescribed. Insane A-C training priest tended to use the Roman Canon on weekdays, and the Interim Rite Canon when he was more likely to get caught. The intention of the Mass was declared at the Offertory. Even with my MOTR-High background it all came across as being too too much, and not particularly Anglican.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    PDR wrote: »
    ... No, the use of the communicates was prescribed. Insane A-C training priest tended to use the Roman Canon on weekdays, and the Interim Rite Canon when he was more likely to get caught. The intention of the Mass was declared at the Offertory. Even with my MOTR-High background it all came across as being too too much, and not particularly Anglican.
    @PDR don't answer this if you feel you shouldn't, but which province and diocese was that in? I get the impression that round here, a person wouldn't be authorised as a training incumbent if that was one of the things they got up to.

    Sitting more loose on liturgy than I suspect you would approve of, might be OK provided it could be defended as having a 'missional justification'. However, since most of the seeking or unbelieving multitudes would not be interested in the Roman Canon, not care and not recognise it anyway, it would be next to impossible to argue that there was a missional justification for using it rather than a legitimate permutation from Common Worship.
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    PDR what do you mean by 'communicates' which was prescribed ?
    It is not the same as the 'communicantes' in the Roman Canon,is it ?
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    @Forthview - spelling and I have never been great friends - you are indeed correct.

    @Enoch - The incumbent who had the dubious privilege of trying to train me had been a moderate - basically BCP/Rite B with the usual A-C additions, but he took a radical turn just before I landed on his doorstep in 1994 and had reintroduced the English Missal. Apparently he had decided it was time come out of the liturgical closet and I was the unlucky guinea pig.
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