[The West End is like Broadway. Most everyone who wants to be in theatre congregates there
What that means is that every frickin colour is available to choose from. One could pick a paint colour swatch and fill all the roles from just using it.
This does not follow. As I've already said, there is a considerable wealth bar to entering the acting profession (and by extension, other key theatre roles). 10% of actors are working class, and 90% are therefore not. Your colour palette is various shades of rich white, and has been for decades.
When Lenny Henry was guest editor on the BBC Radio 4 flagship news programme Today, he populated the entire studio with BME staff. They just about got the programme together. If he'd have tried it with just those who'd been to secondary schools, we'd have had three hours of dead air.
According to TicketMaster, 63% of Britain has been to the theatre in that year (2013). 23% were from London and the South East, so locals will be well represented in the West End…
I may have misread the figure, but I thought it was 26% across London and the South East. It doesn’t state where they attended the theatre, and it would be interesting to know what the West End statistics are for local versus distant attenders.
London and the South East combined account for 26% of theatregoers, where likelihood to attend was also high.
The statistics aren’t perfect, but I think it fair to guess that it would be across all theatres in the general area. Which means the West End would have at least proportional representation of local viewers.
The statistics aren’t perfect, but I think it fair to guess that it would be across all theatres in the general area. Which means the West End would have at least proportional representation of local viewers.
And you would still be wrong, for all the reasons I've previously given.
London theatre has tried and tried to bring in more Londoners but has failed. As a very regular West End theatre goer I would say the vast majority are visitors and tourists. The West End is cheaper than Broadway so lots of Americans watch stuff here rather than New York.
One problem with what LB describes as proper colour blind casting is that the roles are written in certain times and places. The character would be a certain type. Let’s make a comparison. Many Disney Princesses are white. Disney characters are closely linked to their country and are ethnically that culture. Brave is set in old Scotland. It unlikely their would be any black people. The Princess and the Frog is set in Jazz age New Orleans. There would be black characters. Do we ignore this? How authentic is it if we do? There are times when it matters such as Othello or the stage version of the Lion King which is mainly actors of African heritage.
It is happening more and more as I have said. I have seen black performers in Shakespeare plays. I am for it but we have to consider all views
[The West End is like Broadway. Most everyone who wants to be in theatre congregates there
What that means is that every frickin colour is available to choose from. One could pick a paint colour swatch and fill all the roles from just using it.
This does not follow. As I've already said, there is a considerable wealth bar to entering the acting profession (and by extension, other key theatre roles). 10% of actors are working class, and 90% are therefore not. Your colour palette is various shades of rich white, and has been for decades.
When Lenny Henry was guest editor on the BBC Radio 4 flagship news programme Today, he populated the entire studio with BME staff. They just about got the programme together. If he'd have tried it with just those who'd been to secondary schools, we'd have had three hours of dead air.
The problem is not primarily colour. It's wealth.
Colour and wealth are inextricably linked. Racism is not secondary, it is a feature. Not because all posh people hate brown people, but because like calls to like. Race is a problem because a working class white person is more likely to take the financial risk to go to a drama school because brown people have fewer opportunities.
BTW, in 2016, it was 26% working class, according to London School of Economics and Goldsmiths College. Whilst the trend towards posh is getting worse, I'm not sure it has changed that much in three years. IME, having the financial wherewithal has always been an advantage, but it is worse now than in the past. But race is better represented now than in the past, though still far behind what it should be.
Colour and wealth are inextricably linked. Racism is not secondary, it is a feature.
But not in this instance.
Race is a problem because a working class white person is more likely to take the financial risk to go to a drama school because brown people have fewer opportunities.
I think you're over-reaching again here.
BTW, in 2016, it was 26% working class, according to London School of Economics and Goldsmiths College.
Well, The Stage quotes a study saying that from 1981-2011, it was an unvarying 10%. If it's changed that much in 5 years, terrific, but I'm not betting my house on it.
Whilst the trend towards posh is getting worse, I'm not sure it has changed that much in three years. IME, having the financial wherewithal has always been an advantage, but it is worse now than in the past. But race is better represented now than in the past, though still far behind what it should be.
@lilbuddha are you saying middle class white kids go to acting school to get away from brown kids?
Good gods, where the hell did you pull that from?
Oh, from this I think:
Race is a problem because a working class white person is more likely to take the financial risk to go to a drama school because brown people have fewer opportunities.
Yeah, I suppose it does parse that way, except that working class is not middle class in the UK.
Middle class in the UK would be the rough equivalent or Upper middle class to upper class in America.
That should have read a working class white person is more likely to take the financial risk than a working class brown person would be
London theatre has tried and tried to bring in more Londoners but has failed. As a very regular West End theatre goer I would say the vast majority are visitors and tourists. The West End is cheaper than Broadway so lots of Americans watch stuff here rather than New York.
One problem with what LB describes as proper colour blind casting is that the roles are written in certain times and places. The character would be a certain type. Let’s make a comparison. Many Disney Princesses are white. Disney characters are closely linked to their country and are ethnically that culture. Brave is set in old Scotland. It unlikely their would be any black people. The Princess and the Frog is set in Jazz age New Orleans. There would be black characters. Do we ignore this? How authentic is it if we do? There are times when it matters such as Othello or the stage version of the Lion King which is mainly actors of African heritage.
It is happening more and more as I have said. I have seen black performers in Shakespeare plays. I am for it but we have to consider all views
The question is more how important is ethnicity to the part. We know Richard III is white, but ethnicity is not a feature of the play. For Othello, it is. He might be black, he might be brown, but he surely is not white. If black and brown people had truly equal shots at parts, then it wouldn't matter if a white woman played Othello. The fact is that they do not, so white people getting that role makes things worse.
@lilbuddha are you saying middle class white kids go to acting school to get away from brown kids?
Good gods, where the hell did you pull that from?
Oh, from this I think:
Race is a problem because a working class white person is more likely to take the financial risk to go to a drama school because brown people have fewer opportunities.
Yeah, I suppose it does parse that way, except that working class is not middle class in the UK.
Middle class in the UK would be the rough equivalent or Upper middle class to upper class in America.
That should have read a working class white person is more likely to take the financial risk than a working class brown person would be
I wouldn’t bet on that lilbuddha. (The quote system seems to not work that well at my work) There have been female Richard 2. Othello can just be other. There was an African production where all the actors were black. Othello has different heritage to the rest. Yes generally it played as in the text but there are all kinds of exceptions. Truly colour blind casting in the way you describe it is not really possible. There cannot he time when all roles are interchangeable. That would also mean that modern black specific roles could be played by a white actor. Again with some notable exceptions this is very unlikely to happen.
I wouldn’t bet on that lilbuddha. (The quote system seems to not work that well at my work) There have been female Richard 2. Othello can just be other. There was an African production where all the actors were black. Othello has different heritage to the rest. Yes generally it played as in the text but there are all kinds of exceptions.
Most of the exceptions have been white people playing Othello.
Othello is specifically about race, not merely othering. But it is theatre and Shakespeare, and people can get the idea despite the colour of the actors. The problem is that there are so few opportunities for black people in the theatre, it is flat racist to deny them roles that are written as black.
Truly colour blind casting in the way you describe it is not really possible. There cannot he time when all roles are interchangeable. /quote]Why? Whilst I agree that racism will always be with us, why can there not be a time when we minimise it?
That would also mean that modern black specific roles could be played by a white actor. Again with some notable exceptions this is very unlikely to happen.
Reduce racism to a point of inconsequential and and this can happen. Part of reducing it is by putting BAME/POC in more prominent roles.
I am in my 50s, and I have never seen a live performance of Othello where a black man didn't play the lead.
As I said, things are getting better.* But that is a distraction from the main point that letting anyone play any character is not the solution. Letting BAME/POC people play net neutral characters and white characters where colour is not the point is a step towards the solution.
*The worst Othello with, ironically, the best Iago. Hopkins performance was an affront to the bard as well as the blackface being racist.
But that is a distraction from the main point that letting anyone play any character is not the solution.
It's a distraction you introduced. I've seen several Othellos in my life (most recently, the National Theatre), and I've never seen a white man in that role.
But that is a distraction from the main point that letting anyone play any character is not the solution.
It's a distraction you introduced. I've seen several Othellos in my life (most recently, the National Theatre), and I've never seen a white man in that role.
The distraction came from Hugal and I discussing how race works in entertainment/theatre. That Othello is no longer played by white men doesn't erase the basic problem.
But that is a distraction from the main point that letting anyone play any character is not the solution.
It's a distraction you introduced. I've seen several Othellos in my life (most recently, the National Theatre), and I've never seen a white man in that role.
The distraction came from Hugal and I discussing how race works in entertainment/theatre. That Othello is no longer played by white men doesn't erase the basic problem.
It is true that it doesn't erase the basic problem, but you still have yet to make the case that this is primarily about colour, not class, especially on the West End stage.
But that is a distraction from the main point that letting anyone play any character is not the solution.
It's a distraction you introduced. I've seen several Othellos in my life (most recently, the National Theatre), and I've never seen a white man in that role.
The distraction came from Hugal and I discussing how race works in entertainment/theatre. That Othello is no longer played by white men doesn't erase the basic problem.
It is true that it doesn't erase the basic problem, but you still have yet to make the case that this is primarily about colour, not class, especially on the West End stage.
Again, it is interrelated. Class affects colour disproportionately. Colour is part of class, not a separate issue.
There is a reason that the classically trained black talent can be found in Hollywood more than London. And it is not only the size of the pay-cheque, but a pay-cheque at all.
Colour is (often) a subset of class. Yes, there is a problem with UK TV and stage being predominantly white, and not having regular roles for BME actors. But that is overlying the problem with UK TV and stage being upper middle class, and therefore predominantly white.
If we could fix the class thing, there would be more BME actors, playwrights, directors and technical staff in paying jobs. If we could fix only the race thing, there would still be very few working class actors, playwrights, directors and technical staff.
Colour is (often) a subset of class. Yes, there is a problem with UK TV and stage being predominantly white, and not having regular roles for BME actors. But that is overlying the problem with UK TV and stage being upper middle class, and therefore predominantly white.
If we could fix the class thing, there would be more BME actors, playwrights, directors and technical staff in paying jobs.
Yes Othello is about race. However so long as the actor playing him is different in some way from the main body of the cast it still works. Part of the role is that he is other, not the same.
Getting back to the OP. There is more to singing than tuning. The technique helps with the tuning. There also appears to be a decent amount of male singer who are totally unaware of where the passagio is in their voice and sing a lot in that area. The weakest part of their voice.
That should have read a working class white person is more likely to take the financial risk than a working class brown person would be
I've worked in the lower divisions of UK HE for 25 years, and I'm certain that statement (here) is wrong. Our institution rarely fills courses, and scrapes the bottom of the intake barrel in ways I find morally questionable. However it means I am sure that culture plays a bigger part than race, class or wealth in terms of who applies. Working class white and black young people from the UK - some, but not very many. Working class British Asians (mainly from Pakistani backgrounds in these parts, and who rank lowest in terms of average household income) - up to 50% of the intake on many courses. There is an entrepreneur-thing going on, along with an education-prestige thing which is absent in other cultures.
(This is not necessarily a good thing - I believe a good proportion of the worst-prepared entrants are not well-served by their acceptance into HE - but that is not what this thread is about).
Comments
This does not follow. As I've already said, there is a considerable wealth bar to entering the acting profession (and by extension, other key theatre roles). 10% of actors are working class, and 90% are therefore not. Your colour palette is various shades of rich white, and has been for decades.
When Lenny Henry was guest editor on the BBC Radio 4 flagship news programme Today, he populated the entire studio with BME staff. They just about got the programme together. If he'd have tried it with just those who'd been to secondary schools, we'd have had three hours of dead air.
The problem is not primarily colour. It's wealth.
And you would still be wrong, for all the reasons I've previously given.
One problem with what LB describes as proper colour blind casting is that the roles are written in certain times and places. The character would be a certain type. Let’s make a comparison. Many Disney Princesses are white. Disney characters are closely linked to their country and are ethnically that culture. Brave is set in old Scotland. It unlikely their would be any black people. The Princess and the Frog is set in Jazz age New Orleans. There would be black characters. Do we ignore this? How authentic is it if we do? There are times when it matters such as Othello or the stage version of the Lion King which is mainly actors of African heritage.
It is happening more and more as I have said. I have seen black performers in Shakespeare plays. I am for it but we have to consider all views
BTW, in 2016, it was 26% working class, according to London School of Economics and Goldsmiths College. Whilst the trend towards posh is getting worse, I'm not sure it has changed that much in three years. IME, having the financial wherewithal has always been an advantage, but it is worse now than in the past. But race is better represented now than in the past, though still far behind what it should be.
Oh, from this I think: Yeah, I suppose it does parse that way, except that working class is not middle class in the UK.
Middle class in the UK would be the rough equivalent or Upper middle class to upper class in America.
That should have read a working class white person is more likely to take the financial risk than a working class brown person would be
Got the class wrong. So sue me.
*The worst Othello with, ironically, the best Iago. Hopkins performance was an affront to the bard as well as the blackface being racist.
It's a distraction you introduced. I've seen several Othellos in my life (most recently, the National Theatre), and I've never seen a white man in that role.
It is true that it doesn't erase the basic problem, but you still have yet to make the case that this is primarily about colour, not class, especially on the West End stage.
There is a reason that the classically trained black talent can be found in Hollywood more than London. And it is not only the size of the pay-cheque, but a pay-cheque at all.
If we could fix the class thing, there would be more BME actors, playwrights, directors and technical staff in paying jobs. If we could fix only the race thing, there would still be very few working class actors, playwrights, directors and technical staff.
As class, and everyone looking the fucking same, are becoming worse; this part I agree with.
Getting back to the OP. There is more to singing than tuning. The technique helps with the tuning. There also appears to be a decent amount of male singer who are totally unaware of where the passagio is in their voice and sing a lot in that area. The weakest part of their voice.
I've worked in the lower divisions of UK HE for 25 years, and I'm certain that statement (here) is wrong. Our institution rarely fills courses, and scrapes the bottom of the intake barrel in ways I find morally questionable. However it means I am sure that culture plays a bigger part than race, class or wealth in terms of who applies. Working class white and black young people from the UK - some, but not very many. Working class British Asians (mainly from Pakistani backgrounds in these parts, and who rank lowest in terms of average household income) - up to 50% of the intake on many courses. There is an entrepreneur-thing going on, along with an education-prestige thing which is absent in other cultures.
(This is not necessarily a good thing - I believe a good proportion of the worst-prepared entrants are not well-served by their acceptance into HE - but that is not what this thread is about).