That would be a liturgical matter - miscellaneous questions

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  • Why does water get added to the wine in Communion? The pious explanation is that this represents our humanity being mingled with Christ's divinity, but I'm suspicious. Most pious explanations are later add ons. Was it originally to make the wine go further?
  • The explanation I have heard is that it represents the blood and water that flowed from Jesus' side. There are a variety of interpretations of what the blood and water flowing from Jesus' side represent.
  • And also of course as it was a common practice 2 millennia and more ago to make the water safe to drink, it was most likely done at the Last Supper itself.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Mixing water with wine was very common in BCE and early CE Mediterranean culture. Drinking unmixed wine was seen as a sign of dissipation. (Greece, Rome)

    I think the meanings attached to it were, so to speak, devotional aids attached to normal actions to aid/ inspire/ instruct the worshipper.
  • Indeed. I'm suspicious of a lot of later meanings, that are a bit too holy to be plausible.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    Why does water get added to the wine in Communion? The pious explanation is that this represents our humanity being mingled with Christ's divinity, but I'm suspicious. Most pious explanations are later add ons. Was it originally to make the wine go further?

    It was done to make the wine palatable and the water safe enough to drink. Other explanations are sort of <sigh, eyeroll> Durandus who had a mystical reason for everything.
  • Durandas is a new name to me,and Google gives several possibilities. To whom are you referring please?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    In context, I expect this is your man.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    William Durandus, Bishop of Mende, c. 1230 - 1296.
  • Many thanks
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I’ve never heard of charging for a baptism. We don’t charge for weddings of members, either, except for a fee for the organist and for the sexton/custodian. Nonmembers are charged a fee for use of the church.

    And no charge for funerals either, except possibly again for the organist and/or sexton/custodian.

    I have. sadly.

    When I was in a parish of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, we often had more recent arrivals from Russia who would be very apologetic and even embarrassed that they had no money to pay for things that we would never have dreamed that people would ever be expected to pay for, and sometimes we learnt from people who did offer money that they had been saving for some time before they even made the request for something that we would never have charged them for. This was completely alien to our British people and those who had long been part of the well-established Russian emigré community.

    I'm afraid it didn't do much to help the image of the Moscow Patriarchate in the minds of many of us. I understand that, outside of the urban centres in many countries, the funds might not always be available to give a priest a comfortable salary, and that there might be a social expectation that people requesting things from the priest might give him a little something to help him along - I get that. However, when it reaches the point that a Christian church is refusing to pray for the dead or to baptise people into the Church of God because the people requesting this have no money, something has gone very wrong indeed.
  • In the C18th the C of E tried bringing in baptism fees. It's in Parson James Woodford's diary. But they gave up the idea because it was 'encouraging immorality' - parishioners were not bringing their children for baptism. The sacraments of baptism and holy communion are seen as signs of the free grace of God to His people. And the pastoral offices of weddings and funerals only include essential fees.
  • Why does water get added to the wine in Communion? The pious explanation is that this represents our humanity being mingled with Christ's divinity, but I'm suspicious.

    I know what you mean but I'm not sure I've heard that particular wording before, and would be wary of it.
  • In the RC mass the priest says this prayer during the mixing of the water and wine "By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity." It is a shorter and clearer version of the prayer in the Tridentine Missal.
  • Rublev wrote: »
    The sacraments of baptism and holy communion are seen as signs of the free grace of God to His people. And the pastoral offices of weddings and funerals only include essential fees.

    I don't think anyone's yet pointed out that the fees charged by the C of E for weddings, and funerals, are a legal requirement, the C of E being the Established Church, and all that. In comparison with the overall costs of weddings/funerals these days, they are modest.



  • Indeed, but it often feels odd that we charge a fee for those services, and not for baptisms. From a practical point of view they are all ceremonies marking life events that we mainly offer to people who have little or no contact with church.
  • Today I saw a sign outside the local funeral directors advertising their special offer for 'Cremation no ceremony.' It made me feel rather sad. Does modern society really see a funeral as being something which is functional rather than a respectful laying to rest and commending to God in the presence of family and friends?
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    @Rublev - I agree. I would have thought that if there is any event in life that requires ritual it is the death of a loved one. However, modern society seems to live in a state of quasi-denial about death.
  • Perhaps it is because we live in a consumer society but we cannot buy life, so we ignore death instead. Previous generations were much more pragmatic about death:

    "The world is a city full of crowded streets,
    Death is the marketplace where all men meet;
    If life were merchandise that men could buy,
    The rich would always live and the poor would always die"
    (C16th tombstone epitaph).
  • Indeed, but it often feels odd that we charge a fee for those services, and not for baptisms. From a practical point of view they are all ceremonies marking life events that we mainly offer to people who have little or no contact with church.

    Yes, and it would be interesting to see whether churches would become more popular wedding/funeral venues (IYSWIM) if set fees were not charged, but donations invited instead.

    At Our Place, a poor UPA parish, we find that families are often quite generous at baptisms, making voluntary donations to the church which has welcomed them...
    Rublev wrote: »
    Today I saw a sign outside the local funeral directors advertising their special offer for 'Cremation no ceremony.' It made me feel rather sad. Does modern society really see a funeral as being something which is functional rather than a respectful laying to rest and commending to God in the presence of family and friends?

    It certainly does in the secular, post-Christian, UK. The service offered may well include a respectful laying to rest, but it seems, sadly, logical to have no commendation to a god in whom probably no-one there believes anyway.
    :grimace:
  • Rublev wrote: »
    Today I saw a sign outside the local funeral directors advertising their special offer for 'Cremation no ceremony.' It made me feel rather sad. Does modern society really see a funeral as being something which is functional rather than a respectful laying to rest and commending to God in the presence of family and friends?

    One of my churches is twinned with a rural Czech congregation of the ECCB (Evangelical Church of the Czech Brethren, a Protestant church made of various strands which came together a hundred years ago). The minister there envies me funerals. He says that in the communist years obviously church funerals were not encouraged, and instead the state offered a ceremony. This state ceremony is still on offer, but is so dire (he says) that most people, not knowing that there is an alternative, opt for no ceremony, as in @Rublev's observation above. My Czech friend says that this is very bad for the grieving process and emotional health.
  • Indeed, but it often feels odd that we charge a fee for those services, and not for baptisms. From a practical point of view they are all ceremonies marking life events that we mainly offer to people who have little or no contact with church.

    In countries (most I believe) where the clergy do not act on behalf of the state as registrars, a church wedding is a purely religious service and it's up to the church whether it charges a fee or asks for a donation. In the C of E we have to charge a fee but the couple don't then have to pay a fee to the state registrar. I'd prefer the former arrangement but since they would have to pay a fee in any case I don't think the church is acting unfairly. And in the vast majority of cases the expenditure on costumes, room hire, food and drink, flowers etc vastly outweighs the church fee.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    I don’t think there’s any reason in law why the Church of England has to charge a fee. It could decide that no fee should be charged.
  • Many (most?) CoE churches are struggling for money to survive. As others have said, the church fee for weddings and funerals is a small part of the total, which is why it feels odd that we can't charge for baptisms.
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    In the RC mass the priest says this prayer during the mixing of the water and wine "By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity." It is a shorter and clearer version of the prayer in the Tridentine Missal.

    It exists as well in our Orthodox rite, although it forms part of the preparation prior to the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, and is said by the deacon as he pours the water into the chalice.

    "O God, Who wonderfully created and yet more wonderfully restored the dignity of our human nature, grant that, by the mystery of this water and wine, we may come to share in the divine life of Him Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity."
  • Cyprian wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    In the RC mass the priest says this prayer during the mixing of the water and wine "By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity." It is a shorter and clearer version of the prayer in the Tridentine Missal.

    It exists as well in our Orthodox rite, although it forms part of the preparation prior to the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, and is said by the deacon as he pours the water into the chalice.

    "O God, Who wonderfully created and yet more wonderfully restored the dignity of our human nature, grant that, by the mystery of this water and wine, we may come to share in the divine life of Him Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity."

    That is much closer to the Tridentine wording. I wonder if it predates the Schism.
  • Is it possible that Cyprian is quoting from the Western rite Orthodox liturgy which to an outside observer looks much like the Roman rite (minus perhaps the prayer for the pope ?

    It is equally possible that it comes from the pre-schism Byzantine rite liturgy.

    However I would ask Cyprian from what time does the text of the Western rite Orthodox liturgy date in its present form ?
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    Cyprian wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    In the RC mass the priest says this prayer during the mixing of the water and wine "By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity." It is a shorter and clearer version of the prayer in the Tridentine Missal.

    It exists as well in our Orthodox rite, although it forms part of the preparation prior to the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, and is said by the deacon as he pours the water into the chalice.

    "O God, Who wonderfully created and yet more wonderfully restored the dignity of our human nature, grant that, by the mystery of this water and wine, we may come to share in the divine life of Him Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity."

    That is much closer to the Tridentine wording. I wonder if it predates the Schism.

    Possibly.

    The rite I vaguely referred to as "our Orthodox rite" above is the rite of the Gauls as reconstructed by St John of Saint-Denis in the last century from ancient sources. I have only this weekend purchased his commentary on his sources and method but haven't yet read it. If I'm able to find anything about the prayers of the preparation rite I'll post back here.
  • Cyprian wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Cyprian wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    In the RC mass the priest says this prayer during the mixing of the water and wine "By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity." It is a shorter and clearer version of the prayer in the Tridentine Missal.

    It exists as well in our Orthodox rite, although it forms part of the preparation prior to the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, and is said by the deacon as he pours the water into the chalice.

    "O God, Who wonderfully created and yet more wonderfully restored the dignity of our human nature, grant that, by the mystery of this water and wine, we may come to share in the divine life of Him Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity."

    That is much closer to the Tridentine wording. I wonder if it predates the Schism.

    Possibly.

    The rite I vaguely referred to as "our Orthodox rite" above is the rite of the Gauls as reconstructed by St John of Saint-Denis in the last century from ancient sources. I have only this weekend purchased his commentary on his sources and method but haven't yet read it. If I'm able to find anything about the prayers of the preparation rite I'll post back here.

    Ah. I thought you were referring to one of the traditional orthodox liturgies.
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    Cyprian wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Cyprian wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    In the RC mass the priest says this prayer during the mixing of the water and wine "By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity." It is a shorter and clearer version of the prayer in the Tridentine Missal.

    It exists as well in our Orthodox rite, although it forms part of the preparation prior to the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, and is said by the deacon as he pours the water into the chalice.

    "O God, Who wonderfully created and yet more wonderfully restored the dignity of our human nature, grant that, by the mystery of this water and wine, we may come to share in the divine life of Him Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity."

    That is much closer to the Tridentine wording. I wonder if it predates the Schism.

    Possibly.

    The rite I vaguely referred to as "our Orthodox rite" above is the rite of the Gauls as reconstructed by St John of Saint-Denis in the last century from ancient sources. I have only this weekend purchased his commentary on his sources and method but haven't yet read it. If I'm able to find anything about the prayers of the preparation rite I'll post back here.

    Ah. I thought you were referring to one of the traditional orthodox liturgies.

    Well, I would say that the Liturgy according to St Germanus is a traditional Orthodox Liturgy, but there are so many traditional Orthodox liturgies that I realised after posting that my wording was vague and for that I apologise. It's how those of us who use that rite refer to it among ourselves and, having just spent the past week on retreat among such people, I forgot my audience here.

    For clarity, the prayer doesn't exist in the Byzantine or other local Eastern, Mediterranean, or African rites. However, it does exist in the Roman rite and may well have existed in the Gallican and other Western European texts. I'll post here if I discover that to be the case.
  • Indeed, but it often feels odd that we charge a fee for those services, and not for baptisms. From a practical point of view they are all ceremonies marking life events that we mainly offer to people who have little or no contact with church.
    I'm not entirely sure but I have been told that what you pay for is the organist and the building.

    And I would assume that the idea is that salvation is free. You don't need to be married to be saved.
  • Forthview wrote: »
    Is it possible that Cyprian is quoting from the Western rite Orthodox liturgy which to an outside observer looks much like the Roman rite (minus perhaps the prayer for the pope ?

    It is equally possible that it comes from the pre-schism Byzantine rite liturgy.

    However I would ask Cyprian from what time does the text of the Western rite Orthodox liturgy date in its present form ?

    I'm so very sorry, @Forthview

    I must have cross-posted with you and have only just seen your post.

    There are various western rites used within Orthodoxy. The Roman rite is certainly the most commonly used among them and its use was given a blessing in the 19th century.

    The Gallican-tradition liturgy I was referring to was restored in the 1940s, primarily by St John of Saint-Denis (Eugraph Kovalevsky) for use by the church that was then known as the Western Orthodox Church (founded under the auspices of the Moscow Patriarchate in 1936). over the weekend I bought two of the three volumes of St John's academic commentary on the restoration of this rite. I'll slowly make my way through it as a means if practising my very poor French.
  • Yes, as someone who was quite secular and atheistic when my child was baptised, my thinking was:

    i) You Church-y People hold that this is a prerequisite for salvation, so you can hardly deny it to a child, can you?
    ii) Insofar as it's about welcoming the young 'un into the Christian community - well, right now he's coming from outside it to inside it, so there's no fee there. Once he's older, being a member of that community will have obligations!

    My views now have shifted only to the extent that I'm not sure about (i) anymore.
  • A liturgical question: despite the fact that I’ve gone and inserted it into my user handle willy-billy, I realise I’m in fact a bit vague about the thinking behind the part of the Mass known as the ‘peace’ or ‘pax’. When I’ve participated, it’s always seemed to me more a sign of love or friendship than ‘peace’ as such. And in fact I’m not entirely clear what it’s doing in the Mass at all.

    I suspect my problem is two-fold: not understanding liturgy or the liturgical tradition generally; and maybe not really understanding the specifically-Christian resonances of ‘peace/pax/eirene’. Can anyone enlighten me?
  • Yep, that was perfect. And the passage from Augustine it cites does a nice job of unpicking how the kiss of friendship is a kiss of peace.
  • It occurs to me that the handshake offered at the peace in many churches was, so popular legend has it, originally a sign that you were unarmed and, indeed, intending peace.
  • It occurs to me that the handshake offered at the peace in many churches was, so popular legend has it, originally a sign that you were unarmed and, indeed, intending peace.

    That is the origin of the handshake - while you are shaking hands you can't be drawing your sword,,
  • A possible need to draw your sword explains why at least some of us drive on the left, so we pass right-to-right.
  • Whereas a possible need to fling poo explains why some of us drive on the right.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    A possible need to draw your sword explains why at least some of us drive on the left, so we pass right-to-right.

    That has always been my understanding. While I am reluctant to disagree with an aristocrat, I'm not quite convinced by Palomides....
  • Gee D wrote: »
    A possible need to draw your sword explains why at least some of us drive on the left, so we pass right-to-right.

    Indirectly; my recollection is that it's to do with mounting your horse while carrying your sword.
  • Whereas a possible need to fling poo explains why some of us drive on the right.

    :smiley:

    @SirPalomides , that's beautiful.
  • ComplineCompline Shipmate Posts: 19
    If one is inserting an office hymn into a (pre-1970s) version of BCP Morning or Evening Prayer, is there a traditional place to do so? The English Office book has it after the first or second reading (depending on the office) before the canticle, but that feels slightly off to me.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Compline wrote: »
    If one is inserting an office hymn into a (pre-1970s) version of BCP Morning or Evening Prayer, is there a traditional place to do so? The English Office book has it after the first or second reading (depending on the office) before the canticle, but that feels slightly off to me.

    Percy Dearmer, and the Alcuin Club Manual both advocate for before the Psalms, which would be after the Venite at MP, and after Praise ye the Lord/The Lord's name be praised at EP. It is what we do here and it seems to fit better than before the Benedictus and the Mag, which are taken straight from the Roman Breviary without taking into account the slightly different set up to the BCP office.
  • PDR wrote: »
    Compline wrote: »
    If one is inserting an office hymn into a (pre-1970s) version of BCP Morning or Evening Prayer, is there a traditional place to do so? The English Office book has it after the first or second reading (depending on the office) before the canticle, but that feels slightly off to me.

    Percy Dearmer, and the Alcuin Club Manual both advocate for before the Psalms, which would be after the Venite at MP, and after Praise ye the Lord/The Lord's name be praised at EP. It is what we do here and it seems to fit better than before the Benedictus and the Mag, which are taken straight from the Roman Breviary without taking into account the slightly different set up to the BCP office.

    Yes, that's what we do at Our Place, BCP here being the 1662 version. It does indeed sit better, as PDR says.

  • If you're using the 1662 book, shouldn't any hymn have to go before the service, after it, or where the anthem is?
  • I don't have a copy to hand, but I don't think the 1662 BCP disallows the insertion of a suitable Office Hymn. I'd hazard a guess that it re-appeared during the late 19th/early 20th centuries, as a result of The English Hymnal's many translations of mediaeval (or earlier) hymns.

    Certainly, a hymn could (and often does) replace the anthem, and IIRC the Church of My Yoof used to sandwich the sermon between two hymns.

    Local usage...
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    Matins at our place runs:
    Office Hymn, introductory sentence, General confession, Preces and responses
    Venite followed by Psalm(s), 1st lesson
    Te Deum/ Benedicite, 2nd lesson
    Benedictus/ Jubilate
    Creed, responses, collects
    Anthem, sermon (hymn)
    Prayers/ Litany, Offertory Hymn, Blessing

    Second hymn is dropped if we have the Litany.
  • Actually, I guess that, if the first hymn sets the tone/theme of the service, it might well be most appropriate at the very beginning, in line with what Enoch, and TheOrganist, have said.

    Perhaps I've been over-influenced by The Blessed Percy, but Ritual Notes (FWIW) also prescribes the Office Hymn between the Venite, and Psalm(s), at Matins. RN says it goes before the Magnificat at Evensong, but that seems to be in imitation of Roman Vespers, and IMHO it's better before the Psalm(s), as at Matins.

    As there appears to be no definite instruction, local custom takes over, which may, or may not, be a Good Thing!
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