That would be a liturgical matter - miscellaneous questions

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  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    The earliest Christian churches didn't have a particular orientation. It come from Origen who was a very creative theologian.

    In the archaeological record of the UK you can identify the spread of Christianity from the evidence of the C6-7th cemeteries. The pagan Anglo-Saxons buried their dead with grave goods. But the Christian Anglo-Saxons buried their dead in a shroud and oriented E-W so they were ready to meet Christ at the resurrection.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    @Nick Tamen - I was slight amused/alarmed when I was reading through the old Evangelical and Reformed (E&R) Church liturgy yesterday to find a rubric requiring them to celebrate the Lord's Supper twice a year. I guess that may have been to hold the Rs feet to the fire! Their general practice was monthly - old E churches; or quarterly - old R churches.

    I think most denominations have undergone an increase in the frequency of celebration in the last sixty years. In 1960 most PECUSA shacks had communion every week, but it was the main act of worship only once or twice a month. These days it would be considered unusual for a TEC parish to have anything other than HC as the main service.
  • Firstly humans are symbol-using animals. Just look at how we use language. Semiotics, the study of the structure of language actually means the study of signs.

    Second an anecdote. Many moons ago I was one of two leaders for a house group and one week we were discussing communion. One member who was a trained preacher talked about how the taking off of the white cloth before communion from the elements represented the rolling away of the stone from the tomb on Easter morning. We all listened to the detailed way she explained the symbolism and were quite moved by it.

    Then the Church Secretary spoke, "Do you want to know why we really have white cloths on the elements which we remove before communion?"
    There was a general agreement that we did
    "To stop plaster falling onto the elements" he replied.

    That is not to say theology was not relevant to that action. The Church Secretary had changed who took the cloths off. Before he became Church Secretary this had always been the Church Secretary, but he felt this was hierarchical and not in keeping with the priesthood of all believers. So he had got Elders meeting to change it so it was one of the serving elders.
  • Rublev: "It was Origen who came up with the idea that churches should face East towards the rising sun as a reminder of the Resurrection. The two candles on the altar are seen as symbols of the two natures of Christ."

    The first idea was, I thought, a lot earlier Origen. I thought it was there in the Didache, but it's been quite a while since I read it.
    Earlier and later. The idea of facing a particular direction to pray predates Jesus—Jews faced Jerusalem to pray, which for many was East. Christians adopted the practice, with the idea of looking East as looking toward the rising sun and the Second Coming. Origen didn't so much come up with the idea as acknowledge what was an established practice for Christians when praying. (And Origen seems to say that the reason wasn't known anymore.)

    As for church building, that followed on from the practice of facing east to pray. But it really wasn't much of an issue until Christianity was legalized.

  • Ugh, I hate the wee cuppies. Now that I think back on it, that was a big subconscious factor in my giving up on the local Lutheran church. I'm not too keen on intinction either but then I'm used to receiving everything on a common spoon from a common chalice.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    Firstly humans are symbol-using animals. Just look at how we use language. Semiotics, the study of the structure of language actually means the study of signs.

    Second an anecdote. Many moons ago I was one of two leaders for a house group and one week we were discussing communion. One member who was a trained preacher talked about how the taking off of the white cloth before communion from the elements represented the rolling away of the stone from the tomb on Easter morning. We all listened to the detailed way she explained the symbolism and were quite moved by it.

    Then the Church Secretary spoke, "Do you want to know why we really have white cloths on the elements which we remove before communion?"
    There was a general agreement that we did
    "To stop plaster falling onto the elements" he replied.

    That is not to say theology was not relevant to that action. The Church Secretary had changed who took the cloths off. Before he became Church Secretary this had always been the Church Secretary, but he felt this was hierarchical and not in keeping with the priesthood of all believers. So he had got Elders meeting to change it so it was one of the serving elders.

    A fine example of the knack practical ceremonial acts have of picking up a symbolism quite different from their practical function. I am like the Church Secretary though - I tend to be the one who knows the practical use of things.
  • And the practical reasons can vary. Here, the elements were "decently covered" with a white cloth to keep the flies off.

    As for the trained preacher who said that taking off the white cloth represented the rolling away of the stone from the tomb on Easter morning, one wonders what she made of once again covering the elements with the white cloth after Communion was finished. (Or maybe that was only done here.)

  • When I was a curate I was told by the flower arranger that only white and yellow flowers were allowed in the sanctuary. So I asked the vicar the reason for it. And he said that was nonsense but it was probably what she had been told by her predecessor 6 vicars before.

    It's tying the cat.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    I had to deal with the "we have to have flowers" mythology when I first came here. At some point we had a group discussion on it, and we now have flowers on the major feasts, and when someone donates them. As a result people notice them, and they have become a sort of treat.

    Another thing that has happened is that we have decluttered the church (U.S. sanctuary) so things like the removable shelves that go in the window bottoms to support Christmas decorations are now put away rather than being left out all year long. We also got rid of the curtain along the inside of the old choir gallery balustrade that hid the previous congregations sound equipment, and incidentally kept daylight out of the centre of the building.

    The next thing to be taken in hand is the lighting. The previous owners seemed to think that you need the same light level to read a hymnbook as you need to perform neurosurgery, so the wattage of the overhead lights is far too high, and only possible thanks to the use of "industrial strength" compact florescent bulbs. I have been studying the architect's original (1925) lighting scheme, and it was far less aggressive.

    One of the funny stories about the previous congregation is that they never had communion on Christmas because the area around the altar was always occupied by two enormous Christmas trees which must have been 18' tall if they were an inch. In later time they used a free standing table for communion, but prior to about 1995, the trees precluded Communion!
  • Gee D: "What is interesting is that for some of us the reason is practical but others have a theological basis for their practice - with arguments each way."

    My suspicion is that for most (all?) liturgical practices the practical reason came first, and the theological explanation a while later. Several years ago I was taking a Remembrance Service, and noticed halfway through that the altar candles hadn't been lit. Rather than draw attention to the fact I left them as they were. Later I had comments about the poignant symbolism of unlit, or extinguished, candles for Remembrance.

    We'll have to work hard on it and catch up with a theological argument then. Seriously though, there's a lot of common sense in your post and more than a grain of truth.
  • Is there a "right" way to do a funeral? I was at one recently that seemed unusual to me. The burial took place earlier in the morning and a memorial service at the church followed. It seemed to me to be a great way to do it. The family had been close together to say 'goodbye' at the grave, and then came to church for what my wife described as the noisiest funeral we'd ever been to. It was a cheerful occasion with good singing, good preaching, and eulogies celebrating a much loved man who had died in his nineties. I thought it was a good way to go.
  • Is there a "right" way to do a funeral? I was at one recently that seemed unusual to me. The burial took place earlier in the morning and a memorial service at the church followed. It seemed to me to be a great way to do it. The family had been close together to say 'goodbye' at the grave, and then came to church for what my wife described as the noisiest funeral we'd ever been to. It was a cheerful occasion with good singing, good preaching, and eulogies celebrating a much loved man who had died in his nineties. I thought it was a good way to go.
    Burial with family and close friends attending, followed by a memorial service* at the church is a common way to do things around here, and least among Presbyterians and some other religious groups. It's what we did with both of my parents** and with my mother's parents. I wouldn't go so far as to say the services were noisy or particularly cheerful, though. Confident and hopeful, rather. (And certainly no eulogies.)

    As cremation becomes more common, I'm also used to services where the urn with the ashes may or may not be present in the church, with interment of the ashes at a later date.


    * I was taught that it's a "funeral" if the body of the deceased is present, and a "memorial service" if the body is not present.

    ** Well, it's what we intended to do with my father, but the ground was frozen and the cemetery folks couldn't dig the hole. We went back to the cemetery the next day (Sunday) immediately after church.

  • This is (almost) what we organised for the late Mr Ll. The only thing I knew was that he wished to be cremated; the rest I had to make up as I went along.
    The crematorium Chapel was too small for the number of people expected. To hold the service in Church followed by family going to the crematorium (not close by) for the committal would have meant missing people who had, in some cases, travelled for hours to attend. So we had a service for family in the morning at the crematorium followed by a memorial service in 'our' Church in the afternoon. Family had lunch together in between, which allowed us to catch up and talk about him together and we had tea for everyone at the end of the afternoon. It wasn't cheerful, exactly, but there was indeed "good singing [and] good preaching".
    It depends who the person was. 'Doing it right' felt like the last thing I could do for him, but 'right' will vary from person to person.
  • Landlubber wrote: »
    The crematorium Chapel was too small for the number of people expected. To hold the service in Church followed by family going to the crematorium (not close by) for the committal would have meant missing people who had, in some cases, travelled for hours to attend. So we had a service for family in the morning at the crematorium followed by a memorial service in 'our' Church in the afternoon.
    I know this has been talked about before, but I think it might be worth mentioning again in this context: Services at the crematorium don't happen here, unless the crematorium happens to be attached to what we call the "funeral home" (mortuary). Funeral homes typically do have chapels, but a service there is an alternative to a church service. The norm here (though as with so many things, traditions are changing) is a service at the church, the funeral home or perhaps some other venue, with committal—burial or disposition of ashes—either prior to or sometime after the service.


  • Yes, it is interesting to read of the differences and I'm sorry for not making my UK location clear.
  • This is a question for almost every church funeral I take, as we can no longer bury people in the churchyard, and the crem is a little way away. There isn't an easy answer, but I'm inclining to: church service, reasonable gap for wake, then committal at crem. Obviously, I do my best to make whatever the family want work for them.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Yes. Most crematoria that I have encountered (England) are local authority owned/managed, and have chapel(s) attached, as are and do most public cemeteries.

    American style funeral homes are (almost) unknown here, I think, although funeral directors usually have what is called a ‘chapel of rest’ where the body of the deceased may be viewed.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    I have yet to do a funeral here, but I have noted that the crematory (as Americans seem to call it) is next door but one to the church. Their gas metre is of impressive dimensions - far bigger than the church's, and we have a heating plant that looks like the boiler out of a trawler!
  • Recent funerals, family and others, have begun with the committal, then a service in church to celebrate the life of the deceased. I think this works particularly well if they have lived a long life, not died prematurely. The same families have also discouraged the wearing of black.

    If I may return to Holy Communion practices, are there any Methodists out there who can explain to me the tradition of serving communion in “ tables”? ie a group of people come up to receive, sufficient to fill the space available, but wait for a prayer of dismissal before returning to their seats.
    It is not as if there must always be twelve, as in the Last Supper. I fail to see the significance of this practice, and find it strange.
  • Puzzler wrote: »
    If I may return to Holy Communion practices, are there any Methodists out there who can explain to me the tradition of serving communion in “ tables”? ie a group of people come up to receive, sufficient to fill the space available, but wait for a prayer of dismissal before returning to their seats.
    It is not as if there must always be twelve, as in the Last Supper. I fail to see the significance of this practice, and find it strange.
    I’m not a Methodist, but service by tables has a long history in Presbyterian churches, though I don’t see it very often anymore. My understanding it is a relic of the days (at least in Reformed practice) when everyone would have actually sat at table—either coming in groups to sit at the one Communion table, or sitting at tables set up throughout the church. One can still find a church here and there in these parts where the Communion table is long and has benches or seats.

    The significance has to do with underscoring the communal aspect of the Sacrament as a meal. That is, we sit (or stand or kneel) together just as we would sit together for a meal, not each coming as space opens up and going as soon as we each are done.

    FWIW, I’ve encountered service by tables in Lutheran churches, too.

  • Funerals here are typically "from the house" or "from the church" but are almost invariably conducted by a minister and are followed by burial at one of the two remaining cemeteries on the island (both close to chapels that are now ruined). With no facility on the island for refrigeration of bodies a death is followed fairly promptly by the coffining, with the minister and family (and sometimes elders) in attendance. The coffin usually then rests either at home or in a church until the day of the funeral (usually no more than 2 or 3 days, for obvious reasons) and is thereafter conveyed immediately for burial. It is common for most people attending the funeral to also attend the burial, with the elders and family members assisting in lowering the coffin into the grave. If someone dies away then they may be cremated and their ashes returned for burial, or the body may return and be conveyed straight to the funeral. In either case the custom is for at least some of the elders to meet the remains at the ferry as escort them to their destination.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    @Nick Tamen - you can add Low Church Episcopal/Anglican congregations in Virginia to the list. There are several around here that still do communion by tables - including my own. In this neck of the woods it seems to be a hangover from the days of three sided rails, and the Evangelical Revivals of the 19th century where it was intended to emphasize the corporate aspect of Communion.

    I am told communion by tables in a slightly different form was common among the local Presbys before the 'efficiency method' caught on. Apparently a long table was set up, and after that I am a bit hazy, but the original Presbys around here were Ulster-Scots.
  • Our local crematorium chapel is far too small, there is insufficient waiting space for mourners, and the "slots" available are very short.

    As a result we tend here to have a funeral in church, then just a committal at the crem (with very close family only) while everyone else goes to the wake, where the group from the crem join them after c25 minutes.
  • Fascinating. Thanks for that photo.
  • Kilninian church on the Isle of Mull used to have a communion table which I remember from visits many years ago. Regular Church of Scotland worship ceased and it was used by RC for a few years before being taken on by Orthodox who had plans to build a small monastery adjacent. Much money has been spent on the fabric of the church building. The communion table was moved to a museum elsewhere in Scotland.
  • Organist, if the family could get back to the wake in 25 minutes here, we wouldn't have a problem. Here the round trip is about an hour, in which time people have left the wake.

    By the way, I'm beginning to come across people who don't like the word "wake" because it's too gloomy. This has surprised me (to me it suggests a wild Irish party). Have the rest of you found this too?
  • Here it is usually called "the Tea!" But while it may begins with tea and soup, it usually ends with more like your idea of a wake...
  • Here its called "afterwards."
    Odd, when you think we are just across the Mersey from Liverpool.
    I call it the wake - even though I don't have a shred of Irish DNA in me.
  • Organist, if the family could get back to the wake in 25 minutes here, we wouldn't have a problem. Here the round trip is about an hour, in which time people have left the wake.

    By the way, I'm beginning to come across people who don't like the word "wake" because it's too gloomy. This has surprised me (to me it suggests a wild Irish party). Have the rest of you found this too?

    We manage it through careful choreography. Coffin is asperged then leaves church while rest of congregation listen to music chosen for purpose; then usually some final prayers, possibly a hymn, blessing before they leave for the Wake.

    Meanwhile at the crem it is just 1 prayer and committal, no frills.

    In theory it should be a minimum of 40 minutes but ending the church service in a measured way, and the walk to our hall - or the pub next door - where most Wakes are held makes it work. But yes, I realise we're lucky. And most of our funerals are still burials, if the deceased lived in the parish, because around here a burial costs less than a third of the cost of a cremation.
  • Here it's not so much cost as space. All my churchyards are full, unless you reserved a space years ago. It's tricky as some regular worshippers don't like cremation, and some reserved spots may be for folk who've moved away and died elsewhere. We have no way of checking.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Reserved spots here have to be by (paid for) faculty. Nothing else counts legally.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Cathscats wrote: »
    Here it is usually called "the Tea!" But while it may begins with tea and soup, it usually ends with more like your idea of a wake...

    It was 'the Tea' around where I grew up, but it was 'the Wake' in my mother's family due to Irish ancestry. Thanks to Methodist influence they can be totally sober affairs, but there is also the back room of the pub variety which is handy if you need a pint after the proceedings but they still tend to be fairly. We tend to get bottle out at weddings and funerals; somethings cannot be done properly strictly sober!
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    Here, such post funeral events generally happen either at the church or at the family home. If called anything, it’s called a reception, because it’s where the family receives those who came to the funeral. And that’s how it’s often phrased—“the family will receive in the church hall following the service.”

    If on an evening before the day of the funeral, it’s referred to a “visitation.” Visitations generally happen at the funeral home.

  • There are very few church funerals here, almost all being at a crematorium/cemetery. Most of those are conducted by a civil celebrant. The crematoria have function rooms attached and provide catering for drinks, morning or afternoon tea etc.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    Reserved spots here have to be by (paid for) faculty. Nothing else counts legally.

    Yes, that's the same here. But we still have no idea where people are if they've moved away.
  • My Godmother and her husband both had a Requiem Mass in the church, done by someone who didn't really know what they were doing, as the church had gone down the candle since they were last well enough to be active there, followed by the wake, during the course of which the coffin was taken to the local crem on its own as their churchyard is now internment of ashes only. Except in his case it snowed really heavily the night before after the coffin was received into church. So everyone turned up in wellies and the coffin ended up waiting several days in a side chapel until the weather was better.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    I know a few Lutheran pastors who did their vicarage up in MinneSOta, and Nor' DaKOta, and they all seem to have a frozen ground story or three to tell! One of them his aunt died in January, and they had the service, but it was March before they could actually bury her, the ground was so frozen. I don't know whether he was having me on, but it sounds plausible.
  • The irony is, I suppose, that They would have had to keep Auntie in cold storage the while, too...
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    BroJames wrote: »
    Reserved spots here have to be by (paid for) faculty. Nothing else counts legally.

    Yes, that's the same here. But we still have no idea where people are if they've moved away.
    Maybe you can find a parishioner who’s happy to do a little sleuthing. It’s surprisingly easy to trace people these days. They could begin with some of the older faculties.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    BroJames wrote: »
    Reserved spots here have to be by (paid for) faculty. Nothing else counts legally.

    Yes, that's the same here. But we still have no idea where people are if they've moved away.
    Maybe you can find a parishioner who’s happy to do a little sleuthing. It’s surprisingly easy to trace people these days. They could begin with some of the older faculties.

    I have a vague memory of reading that in CofE churchyards grave reservation faculties only lasted for 30 years?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    You may be right. I can see that some dioceses offer only 30 year faculties.
  • Many years ago the vicar of a parish in the upper Thames valley near Cirencester, a flat boggy area where there is a high water table and a lot of gravel pits, told me that for burials in winter, they put stones in the coffins as otherwise, when it was time to lower the deceased into their grave, mourners found it disconcerting if they floated rather than descended.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    In my circles, incidentally, the "wake" (which I too saw as a wild Irish shindig) is increasingly referred to as the "Aftermatch Function" or AMF, a term borrowed from sports, whose ecclesiastical applications I solemnly swear I initiated in Australia in the late-1980s. But I'm not necessarily able to provide solid etymological evidence, sadly.
  • Re, the bell after the priest's communion, it was not originally to tell people to come to Communion.
    It was traditional in the RC church for the authorities regularly to remind people to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days. Then the question arose as to how much of the Mass one should attend to fulfil the obligation. Generally it was accepted that the Mass of the Catchumens/Liturgy of the Word could be missed BUT the Mass of the Faithful/Liturgy of the Eucharist should on no account be missed.
    The essential parts here were/are : the offering of the bread and wine, the consecration of the bread and wine, the offering of the Body and Blood of Christ to the Eternal Father and the reception of the element by the priest,who acted both 'in persona Christi' and as the representative of the community.

    It is virtually universal in the RC church for a bell to be rung at the beginning of Mass and the bell rung after the priest's communion was (in pre Vatican 2 days ) the sign that the obligation to attend Mass had now been fulfilled.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Forthview wrote: »
    It is virtually universal in the RC church for a bell to be rung at the beginning of Mass and the bell rung after the priest's communion was (in pre Vatican 2 days ) the sign that the obligation to attend Mass had now been fulfilled.

    And the faithful should leave their pews and get back to working on their master's property.
  • Timo PaxTimo Pax Shipmate
    edited October 2019
    Gee D wrote: »
    And the faithful should leave their pews and get back to working on their master's property.

    Hmmm. Was the Sabbath not respected in pre-Vatican II times? My impression was that even in medieval Europe, pretty much all holy days constituted exemptions from working another's land. But I Am Not A Social Historian.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Sheep and cattle to tend to for a start, harvests to get in - these activities did not know the day of the week and it would have been a brave villein to try to teach the livestock or crops.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Sheep and cattle to tend to for a start, harvests to get in - these activities did not know the day of the week and it would have been a brave villein to try to teach the livestock or crops.

    I presume, then, that the strict Sabbatarianism that saw crofters feed their beasts on Saturday evening was without pre-reformation antecedents?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I'd expect not
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