It's quite simple for anyone who isn't a white supremacist, @Russ
Nobody has an issue with closing a park at night. Most would accept that there are reasons to impose curfews, to restrict access by age and to do things that affect one group but not another.
What isn't right is when those activities, directly it indirectly, disadvantage people from a particular ethnicity.
I mean, come on now. This is schoolboy stuff not serious debate.
It's quite simple for anyone who isn't a white supremacist, @Russ
Nobody has an issue with closing a park at night. Most would accept that there are reasons to impose curfews, to restrict access by age and to do things that affect one group but not another.
What isn't right is when those activities, directly it indirectly, disadvantage people from a particular ethnicity.
That's the clearest statement of principle I can recall from you, Mr Cheesy.
What you're saying is that race is different. That an ethnic group being disadvantaged by some action is morally different from some other sort of group being similarly disadvantaged.
So, like any thinking person, I ask "why ?" What's different about race ?
And when you've no good answer, I'm left suspecting that this is just how people think in your subculture. That this is what is socially accepted in the circles in which you move.
But making exceptions to unchanging universal moral rules on the basis of the stories that your subculture tells is the same phenomenon that leads to gas chambers and slavery - the historic wrongs that you rightly recoil from and say "never again" to.
We prevent future atrocity by subordinating cultural narrative to moral principle, not vice versa.
I'm not a supremacist of any colour. Belief in the innate superiority of one's own race seems to me a form of wishful thinking rather than an evidence-based belief that deserves to he taken seriously.
But demonising such a group - making them the people it's OK to hate - is the wrong response. Try holding them to the same exceptionless moral standards that you hold yourself.
People exist who have a shitty life. Many of them have a shitty life directly related to the fact that they have black skin and because white people like you feel threatened by them.
That's why anti-discrimination rules exist. To stop the abused being more abused from the likes of you.
What you're saying is that race is different. That an ethnic group being disadvantaged by some action is morally different from some other sort of group being similarly disadvantaged.
So, like any thinking person, I ask "why ?" What's different about race ?
And when you've no good answer, I'm left suspecting that this is just how people think in your subculture. That this is what is socially accepted in the circles in which you move. ...
There is a good answer. It's the same answer to the question of Why? your city does not have a Zebra Control and Management Program. Zebras are not a problem in your community. Neither is systemic discrimination against people with red hair, beards, or extreme height. You just don't want to accept the answer. Yes, Russ, race is different - along with sex, religion, disability, gender and sexuality - and only someone deliberately oblivious to human history would think otherwise, let alone embarrass themselves in public arguing about it.
No thinking person would ask, "Why do you care so much about dog bites and not zebra bites? It's socially acceptable in your circles to hate dogs and love zebras." Your version of "thinking" is that it's "immoral" to have a rule banning pit bulls unless there is also a rule banning zebras. The fact that packs of roaming zebras are no danger to your community is irrelevant to you. As Dr. McCoy would put it, "It's thinking, Jim, just not as we know it."
I'm left suspecting that you don't think racism is a problem because you're white. You don't think sexism is a problem because you're male. And so forth.
No thinking person would ask, "Why do you care so much about dog bites and not zebra bites? It's socially acceptable in your circles to hate dogs and love zebras." Your version of "thinking" is that it's "immoral" to have a rule banning pit bulls unless there is also a rule banning zebras. The fact that packs of roaming zebras are no danger to your community is irrelevant to you.
The fact that zebras are no danger to the inhabitants of Caprica City would indeed be an explanation as to why the local statutes there make no mention of zebras but include rules about keeping dogs which are seen as a problem.
But that local experience does not add to universal and timeless morality an 11th commandment about keeping dogs.
The extent to which local law and custom reflects local problems and experiences is the extent to which it does not reflect universal right and wrong.
Seems like you want it both ways. In the parts of the world where herds of zebras are moving in and crowding out the local animals and thus seen by the affected local people as a problem, you want to condemn any local laws that single out zebras as morally wrong. As against the universal rights of zebras.
And then treat your own laws, that single out dogs because dogs are seen as a problem, as having moral force.
Ah - yes. Earth round or flat? Scientific community say it's round; flat earthers say it's flat. People of good will ought to be able to meet in the middle somewhere.
New York City? Grab some fresh "everything" bagels and schmear? Or maybe some bialys (/bialies?), since they're flatish bagelish things. Roundish and flatish!
According to hollow earthers, the earth is toroidal.
Maybe the bagel analogy carries more merit than we thought.
I love donuts! But make sure there's some DARK donuts, you know there's nothing tastier than a chocolate BROWN donut! Glazed donuts are too...white! Too bland. I like the excitement of those mysterious donuts, all devil's food....
@Russ, I cannot see any reason why you would include lyrics to Rule Britannia on a Purgatory thread discussing suitable dates to celebrate American emancipation if you are not trolling, so I've brought it here:
The big question here is whether this proposed holiday will help to heal division or widen it.
Is this to become a black people's day on which it is considered inappropriate to praise any white person who worked to end slavery ?
Or a celebration of re-union, of what the US has achieved and can achieve when all work together, of putting divisions behind ?
Peace or Victory ?
Personally, I think what's needed is a new song that everyone comes together to sing on this day. Something along the lines of "Americans never never never more shall be slaves"...
If it wasn't you and you hadn't got so much previous form I'd have asked the question. But as it's you and you have been caught trolling before, Hell it is.
@Russ, I cannot see any reason why you would include lyrics to Rule Britannia on a Purgatory thread discussing suitable dates to celebrate American emancipation if you are not trolling, so I've brought it here:
The big question here is whether this proposed holiday will help to heal division or widen it.
Is this to become a black people's day on which it is considered inappropriate to praise any white person who worked to end slavery ?
Or a celebration of re-union, of what the US has achieved and can achieve when all work together, of putting divisions behind ?
Peace or Victory ?
Personally, I think what's needed is a new song that everyone comes together to sing on this day. Something along the lines of "Americans never never never more shall be slaves"...
If it wasn't you and you hadn't got so much previous form I'd have asked the question. But as it's you and you have been caught trolling before, Hell it is.
Honestly, it is beyond me how any of Russ' rather anodyne post warrants a Hell call. This looks more like an example of dog piling than of honest outrage at anything even mildly offensive.
@Russ, I cannot see any reason why you would include lyrics to Rule Britannia on a Purgatory thread discussing suitable dates to celebrate American emancipation if you are not trolling, so I've brought it here:
The big question here is whether this proposed holiday will help to heal division or widen it.
Is this to become a black people's day on which it is considered inappropriate to praise any white person who worked to end slavery ?
Or a celebration of re-union, of what the US has achieved and can achieve when all work together, of putting divisions behind ?
Peace or Victory ?
Personally, I think what's needed is a new song that everyone comes together to sing on this day. Something along the lines of "Americans never never never more shall be slaves"...
If it wasn't you and you hadn't got so much previous form I'd have asked the question. But as it's you and you have been caught trolling before, Hell it is.
Honestly, it is beyond me how any of Russ' rather anodyne post warrants a Hell call. This looks more like an example of dog piling than of honest outrage at anything even mildly offensive.
Russ has a history of posing offensive ideas under the cover of anodyne.
Actually, I thought this line more intended for offence:
Is this to become a black people's day on which it is considered inappropriate to praise any white person who worked to end slavery ?
One person posting hardly constitutes dogpiling, by any reasonable definition of the term.
Any Russ post seems guaranteed to be buried under an avalanche of responses by the Ships own little outrage factory. Looking at a single odd Hell call hardly captures the full flavor of the dynamic of the Ship in this matter. I know it is a fool's errand to bother pointing that out and asking for people to consider their part in this dynamic, but I am just the fool for the task I guess.
"Outrage factory" because nobody has any right to actually be offended or outraged, and deserve to be mocked for saying they are. Even though THAT'S WHAT HELL IS FOR. Moron.
One person posting hardly constitutes dogpiling, by any reasonable definition of the term.
Any Russ post seems guaranteed to be buried under an avalanche of responses by the Ships own little outrage factory. Looking at a single odd Hell call hardly captures the full flavor of the dynamic of the Ship in this matter. I know it is a fool's errand to bother pointing that out and asking for people to consider their part in this dynamic, but I am just the fool for the task I guess.
*imagines with growing horror tclune as counsellor at a women's refuge* "have you considered not making him so angry that he hits you?"
He has decided that I am not worth responding to at all. And of course he is still trying desperately to define his way out of being racist despite his white superiority complex. "Unless you can come up with a single unifying definition of racist that includes each and every thing that is racist but nothing else, then you can't say that my white superiority complex is racist." Desperation has never smelled so foul.
He is a fucking troll. The shame is that it took a special board for hosts to notice, but the bastard posts like that in Purg and has done for years. Roman idiot was less subtle, but was no more a troll for all that.
Absolutely a troll. Why anyone continues to interact with the gormless fucking plank is beyond me. He has demonstrated no understanding of logic or any human decency whatsoever on the instances I have read his posts. I now no longer bother.
He is a fucking troll. The shame is that it took a special board for hosts to notice, but the bastard posts like that in Purg and has done for years. Roman idiot was less subtle, but was no more a troll for all that.
Well, sealioning is a new idea to me, but it's a definite kind of trolling, and I recall some other instances of it. It's cleverer than your bogstandard troll who uses emotional wind-ups. It's a bit like the idea of the Gish gallop, as used to be used by creationists, an endless torrent of questions, objections, minutiae, which can literally go on for years. Any moderator dealing with this has my sympathy, as at first it sounds almost reasonable, and sucks people in. But boring as hell.
The shame is that it took a special board for hosts to notice ...
Oh, just fuck right off. If the administration of these boards is so awful that you have to criticize every thing we do or don't do, leave already.
Fuck you right back with a rusty rake.
I’ve defended you lot at least as much as criticised. You want to hear that you are perfect? Change the comment rules.
If you think Russ is a misunderstood sweetheart, let’s see your work.
You do not remember the defence, but it has been there. Never an "Oh the Crew is the Wonderfuls, aren't they?!" but certainly defences against "The Crew are the Horribles!". But whatevs, it wouldn't matter if I only criticised, fucking defend against the statement.
That Russ has not changed his behaviour and only now gets called for it, says something. You tell me what that is if it is not a miss.
Comments
I don't advise anyone pollute their minds reading Russ' posts there though - he's completely dropped the mask.
Nobody has an issue with closing a park at night. Most would accept that there are reasons to impose curfews, to restrict access by age and to do things that affect one group but not another.
What isn't right is when those activities, directly it indirectly, disadvantage people from a particular ethnicity.
I mean, come on now. This is schoolboy stuff not serious debate.
That's the clearest statement of principle I can recall from you, Mr Cheesy.
What you're saying is that race is different. That an ethnic group being disadvantaged by some action is morally different from some other sort of group being similarly disadvantaged.
So, like any thinking person, I ask "why ?" What's different about race ?
And when you've no good answer, I'm left suspecting that this is just how people think in your subculture. That this is what is socially accepted in the circles in which you move.
But making exceptions to unchanging universal moral rules on the basis of the stories that your subculture tells is the same phenomenon that leads to gas chambers and slavery - the historic wrongs that you rightly recoil from and say "never again" to.
We prevent future atrocity by subordinating cultural narrative to moral principle, not vice versa.
I'm not a supremacist of any colour. Belief in the innate superiority of one's own race seems to me a form of wishful thinking rather than an evidence-based belief that deserves to he taken seriously.
But demonising such a group - making them the people it's OK to hate - is the wrong response. Try holding them to the same exceptionless moral standards that you hold yourself.
People exist who have a shitty life. Many of them have a shitty life directly related to the fact that they have black skin and because white people like you feel threatened by them.
That's why anti-discrimination rules exist. To stop the abused being more abused from the likes of you.
There is a good answer. It's the same answer to the question of Why? your city does not have a Zebra Control and Management Program. Zebras are not a problem in your community. Neither is systemic discrimination against people with red hair, beards, or extreme height. You just don't want to accept the answer. Yes, Russ, race is different - along with sex, religion, disability, gender and sexuality - and only someone deliberately oblivious to human history would think otherwise, let alone embarrass themselves in public arguing about it.
No thinking person would ask, "Why do you care so much about dog bites and not zebra bites? It's socially acceptable in your circles to hate dogs and love zebras." Your version of "thinking" is that it's "immoral" to have a rule banning pit bulls unless there is also a rule banning zebras. The fact that packs of roaming zebras are no danger to your community is irrelevant to you. As Dr. McCoy would put it, "It's thinking, Jim, just not as we know it."
I'm left suspecting that you don't think racism is a problem because you're white. You don't think sexism is a problem because you're male. And so forth.
The fact that zebras are no danger to the inhabitants of Caprica City would indeed be an explanation as to why the local statutes there make no mention of zebras but include rules about keeping dogs which are seen as a problem.
But that local experience does not add to universal and timeless morality an 11th commandment about keeping dogs.
The extent to which local law and custom reflects local problems and experiences is the extent to which it does not reflect universal right and wrong.
Seems like you want it both ways. In the parts of the world where herds of zebras are moving in and crowding out the local animals and thus seen by the affected local people as a problem, you want to condemn any local laws that single out zebras as morally wrong. As against the universal rights of zebras.
And then treat your own laws, that single out dogs because dogs are seen as a problem, as having moral force.
Just another double standard...
According to hollow earthers, the earth is toroidal.
Maybe the bagel analogy carries more merit than we thought.
AFF
Oh, for goodness sake! (See what I did there?)
Your only reason to be aboard the Ship is to be wind up merchant @Russ.
Do you enjoy it? Attention seeking?
I rose to the bait -more fool me. 🙄🙄
Doughnuts for everyone!
Who wants doughnuts? Or donuts?
AFF
Nicely done.
If it wasn't you and you hadn't got so much previous form I'd have asked the question. But as it's you and you have been caught trolling before, Hell it is.
Honestly, it is beyond me how any of Russ' rather anodyne post warrants a Hell call. This looks more like an example of dog piling than of honest outrage at anything even mildly offensive.
Actually, I thought this line more intended for offence:
I was aware of the first, not aware of the second, but I still am missing where the horror lies.
Any Russ post seems guaranteed to be buried under an avalanche of responses by the Ships own little outrage factory. Looking at a single odd Hell call hardly captures the full flavor of the dynamic of the Ship in this matter. I know it is a fool's errand to bother pointing that out and asking for people to consider their part in this dynamic, but I am just the fool for the task I guess.
*imagines with growing horror tclune as counsellor at a women's refuge* "have you considered not making him so angry that he hits you?"
He's a tedious arsehole to boot. Very probably our Most Boring Shipmate.
Can someone really be this lacking in self awareness?
I certainly can find no evidence to refute this claim.
Well, sealioning is a new idea to me, but it's a definite kind of trolling, and I recall some other instances of it. It's cleverer than your bogstandard troll who uses emotional wind-ups. It's a bit like the idea of the Gish gallop, as used to be used by creationists, an endless torrent of questions, objections, minutiae, which can literally go on for years. Any moderator dealing with this has my sympathy, as at first it sounds almost reasonable, and sucks people in. But boring as hell.
Oh, just fuck right off. If the administration of these boards is so awful that you have to criticize every thing we do or don't do, leave already.
I’ve defended you lot at least as much as criticised. You want to hear that you are perfect? Change the comment rules.
If you think Russ is a misunderstood sweetheart, let’s see your work.
This from someone who when directly asked for a suggestion about what we should do declined to offer one. Fuck off.
Oh, please.
That Russ has not changed his behaviour and only now gets called for it, says something. You tell me what that is if it is not a miss.
What am I missing?
Not being a twerp?