"When in Rome" . . .

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Comments

  • sydneyhighsydneyhigh Shipmate Posts: 7
    Gee D
    With respect I think you may have been confusing John Moyse with Bishop Burgmann the Bishop of Canberra Goulburn. Moyse was outspoken in respect to the Vietnam war when Harold Holt was Prime Minister. I recall a TV discussion on the Vietnam war in which Moyse participated and he made it clear that prior to Vietnam he had been a conservative voter.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited October 2019
    Zappa wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    He did not get an ++ because his politics were far too liberal for those days.

    Was he contemporary with Burgmann?

    Almost completely. From memory, he started at Armidale a few years before Burgmann was elected to Goulburn (and I think Canberra but that part of the title may have been added afterwards) and finished a little later. For those of us growing up in the unthinking neutralism of Sydney and probably much of the rest of Australia they were a breath of fresh air. Menzies could not understand how Anglicans did not automatically support him.

    sydneyhigh, no, I was not confusing them. I'm too young to know anything of the Communist Party referendum first hand, but I do recall an uncle, heavily involved in Liberal Party politics, speaking of Moyes's opposition to that and also to other initiatives of Menzies. Like Menzies, he expected Anglican bishops to support the Liberal Party
  • sydneyhighsydneyhigh Shipmate Posts: 7
    GeeD
    I owe you an apology. I did some googling which confirms your view. He did oppose banning the Communist Party and Menzies was not amused. I have independent memory of his opposition to the Vietnam war. He was also an advocate of the “social gospel “ something he had in common with Father John Hope. This makes it even more mystifying why he sent his ordinands to Moore College where the concept of the social gospel was an anathema. I heard the Moore College rector Broughton Knox talking once on the subject. Actually it was a reference to one of Knox’s bête noirs Rev Alan Walker. Knox said the Bible was not a social document as some preachers try to make out. Adding that they may find themselves down the drain if they weren’t there already. Is what some Christians refer to preaching the truth in love. Or the Moore College version.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    No need for an apology. I can't answer your rhetorical question but Moore has always had a good reputation for the high standards it sets, even if the theology taught is questionable.

    From the start almost, CCSL has preached a strong social gospel and cared deeply about the poor in society.= much as did many Anglo-Catholics in the UK. There was a lot of direct care given as well as such matters as helping children get education and then jobs. I don't have anything in front of me, but my memory is that a family called Spooner were very active there. Then one of them joined the UAP and then the Liberals, becoming a senator and one of Menzies' ministers. He kept going to CCSL. One of Gough's ministers was a parishioner and Gough went to the funeral. Afterwards, he said "I wish I could believe but I can't".
  • sydneyhighsydneyhigh Shipmate Posts: 7
    An interviewer once asked Gough (knowing he was agnostic) if when he died he went heaven and found himself face to face with God what would he say to Him? Within a flash Gough replied “nice to meet an equal.” Pure Gough.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    A great man.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    No need for an apology. I can't answer your rhetorical question but Moore has always had a good reputation for the high standards it sets, even if the theology taught is questionable.

    Where Moore gives me a gut ache - particularly now that I am seeing their theology in the USA - is ecclesiology and liturgiology. I am fairly sympathetic to 'Protestant Augustinian' theology, though I have a preference for Bucer and Bullinger over Calvin, but Moore seems to have an understanding of the church, the sacraments, and worship which is on the low side of Low Church Reformed rather than anything 16th century.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    PDR wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    No need for an apology. I can't answer your rhetorical question but Moore has always had a good reputation for the high standards it sets, even if the theology taught is questionable.

    Where Moore gives me a gut ache - particularly now that I am seeing their theology in the USA - is ecclesiology and liturgiology. I am fairly sympathetic to 'Protestant Augustinian' theology, though I have a preference for Bucer and Bullinger over Calvin, but Moore seems to have an understanding of the church, the sacraments, and worship which is on the low side of Low Church Reformed rather than anything 16th century.

    You may not like the answers they arrive at any more than Madame and I do, but it's hard to deny the quality of the teaching overall. For a start, there's 3 or 4 years compulsory ancient Greek*. Yes, the teaching on the church and sacraments is way out of the Anglican tradition but then compare the teaching overall with what is offered in England. A decade ago, I was a parish nominator, one of a small group looking for a new rector. We followed directions and looked at some Moore trained clergy and did not much like what they said. But we also looked at several English clergy and while they may well have had great pastoral skills, the academic teaching they had was very limited indeed, not just in Greek but overall.

    *++ Glenn insists that non-Moore clergy seeking his appointment to a parish in Sydney satisfy him that they have 3 years undergraduate training in Greek. If they don't, he either rejects them outright or or gives them a short-term appointment while they do a crammed Greek course over 18 months to 2 years at Moore.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    On the whole I think Broughton Knox was right about the need to give the clergy a solid academic background. I have certain seen my share of folks who had their four years in who could not pour water out of a boot with the instructions on the heel. That said, standards these days a very patchy. Ours are not very high, but we have a couple of folks who are on short appointments whilst they get their basics sorted out. One of them has an M. Div., but theologically he didn't know Mao from Marcion when he was interviewed, so he was given a two year appointment and given a list of courses he needs to complete. I am glad to say that he is taking his medicine quite well!
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Moore's an instance of agreeing with the method but not the substance.
  • CJSCJS Shipmate Posts: 16
    Gee D wrote: »
    My memory is that Gordon Cheng, sometime sailor on the Ship, was at some time also the rector at Roseville.

    Gordon was never Rector of anywhere.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    GI was going on ancient memory. Was he not at Roseville?
  • Lloyd HaroldLloyd Harold Shipmate Posts: 11
    Gee D wrote: »
    Apart from the Jensen years of unhappy memory, both the Abp and the Regional Bishop here more or less follow the practice Angloid describes: indeed the present diocesan can be seen decked out in lace celebrating Pontifical High Mass one week, and the next leading Family Worship and wearing a suit The less part is that rather than lace, they wear Canterbury (or Convocation) rig - you choose how you'd describe it - and they don't preside.

    And I'm glad to say that IME they have not discriminated against gays in the congregation or indeed the sanctuary party. That battle by and large was won way back in the 1930's, at Christ Church St Laurence. The Abp had wandered down George St to do some bishoply act, and commented delicately to Fr John Hope that a lot in the congregation looked to be a certain type. Fr John replied robustly along the lines that yes, there were and wasn't it good that they could come there, be welcomed and comfortable, and worship God. Surrender of Abp.

    A few years ago we celebrated fifty years of the Order of St Luke in Australia and the original mover was Fr John Hope of CCSL, which is still the guild church of the Order. He was supported by Canon Jim Glennon from St Andrew's Cathedral, who began a weekly healing ministry there which continues today. There was some opposition at the time from many evangelical clergy (with more support from Anglo-Catholics), but this changed rapidly and today support comes from across the Anglican spectrum (and from other denominations).
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Thank you for those details, previously unknown to me. Fr John was a good man and a good priest.
  • Lloyd HaroldLloyd Harold Shipmate Posts: 11
    Gee D wrote: »
    Apart from the Jensen years of unhappy memory, both the Abp and the Regional Bishop here more or less follow the practice Angloid describes: indeed the present diocesan can be seen decked out in lace celebrating Pontifical High Mass one week, and the next leading Family Worship and wearing a suit The less part is that rather than lace, they wear Canterbury (or Convocation) rig - you choose how you'd describe it - and they don't preside.

    And I'm glad to say that IME they have not discriminated against gays in the congregation or indeed the sanctuary party. That battle by and large was won way back in the 1930's, at Christ Church St Laurence. The Abp had wandered down George St to do some bishoply act, and commented delicately to Fr John Hope that a lot in the congregation looked to be a certain type. Fr John replied robustly along the lines that yes, there were and wasn't it good that they could come there, be welcomed and comfortable, and worship God. Surrender of Abp.

    A few years ago we celebrated fifty years of the Order of St Luke in Australia and the original mover was Fr John Hope of CCSL, which is still the guild church of the Order. He was supported by Canon Jim Glennon from St Andrew's Cathedral, who began a weekly healing ministry there which continues today. There was some opposition at the time from many evangelical clergy (with more support from Anglo-Catholics), but this changed rapidly and today support comes from across the Anglican spectrum (and from other denominations).

    The change came when Marcus Loane became archbishop as he gave Jim Glennon and the ministry his full support. The emblem of the OSL is in a plaque on the wall of CCSL with acknowledgement of the role of John Hope and his successor Austin Day.
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