ICE spokes-idiot: “It is the responsibility of an individual traveling in the vicinity of an international border to maintain awareness of their surroundings and their location at all times to ensure they do not illegally cross the border,”
Or, alternatively, Border Police could choose not to be dicks. I know they won't, but it seems reasonable to remind people that choosing to be reasonable is actually an option.
What happened to that family was horrible and incomprehensible. Those thugs have no business working for the government of this country. Unfortunately, my country now has thugs in its highest offices. I pray that we can change that soon.
What happened to that family was horrible and incomprehensible. Those thugs have no business working for the government of this country. Unfortunately, my country now has thugs in its highest offices. I pray that we can change that soon.
There appears to be more to this than was first reported.
The Washington Post further claims that they were carrying $16,000 in cash.
AIUI, that is $16,000 for the entire group: 4 adults, 3 children on vacation...under such circumstances, $16K is not exactly a record.
What I find more curious is the statement:
“Attempts were made to return the individuals to Canada, however, Canada refused to allow their return and two attempts to contact the United Kingdom consulate were unsuccessful,” the CBP statement read.
Two attempts to contact the UK consulate were "unsuccessful"????? What? The UK consulate doesn't have a phone answering service?? Or an answering machine? What does "unsuccessful" mean?
AIUI, that is $16,000 for the entire group: 4 adults, 3 children on vacation...under such circumstances, $16K is not exactly a record.
I think the point is - why were they carrying a large amount of American currency if they were holidaying in Canada and entered America accidentally, whilst swerving to avoid a moose? People don't usually obtain currency for a country they have no intention of visiting.
Actually, no-one travels with cash over $10K without declaring it at the border. Bank and border regulations. illegal otherwise. The amount in American money appears to 10K USA $ for reporting at the border as well. These people look like they intended to travel to USA. It would be interesting to know what the rental car agreement said: you have to have authorization to take a car rented in Canada into the USA and vice versa.
Would these people be somewhat suntanned, by any chance?
You might want to be careful there - is the implication "brown people more likely to be refused entry by USA" or "brown people more likely to try to sneak illegally into USA"?
AIUI, that is $16,000 for the entire group: 4 adults, 3 children on vacation...under such circumstances, $16K is not exactly a record.
None of the articles are clear about what currency this was. There's no reason for a British family on holiday in Canada to carry any quantity of US currency; carrying Canadian currency is more understandable. So there's evidence of intent in the details of the currency that they were carrying.
Is there any evidence for this $16k other than the say-so of the agency in question, which is widely distrusted within the United States for its proved abuse of citizens at airports?
Is there any evidence for this $16k other than the say-so of the agency in question, which is widely distrusted within the United States for its proved abuse of citizens at airports?
It's hard to see who else would be in a position to have evidence of this $16K (in whatever currency).
I'll note in passing that your use of "citizen" here seems to me to be rather distinctively American.
You can almost imagine the reality-show excitement that surely went into the ill-considered plan to introduce Anne Sacoolas, the American diplomatic wife who killed 19-year-old motorcyclist Harry Dunn when she drove down the wrong side of an English lane in August, to Dunn’s grieving parents. Sacoolas left the U.K. in early September under diplomatic-immunity protections and has not been seen in public since.
The Dunn family, now in the United States to drum up support to send Sacoolas back to the U.K. to face justice, had accepted an “urgent” invitation by the White House from National Security Adviser Robert O’Brien, to visit Donald Trump in Washington, D.C., on Tuesday night.
President Trump said Wednesday that he had arranged the meeting at the request of British Prime Minister Boris Johnson. Speaking at a joint press conference with Italian President Sergio Mattarella, he described the encounter as “beautiful in a certain way,” adding that he expressed condolences “on behalf of our country. ”
He then admitted that he tried to get the family to meet Sacoolas, who was waiting in an adjacent room. “I offered to bring the person in question in,” he said. “And they weren’t ready for it.”
Trump, it seems, thought he could convince the Dunns to meet the woman who killed their son, and would do so by opening a side door through which she would walk. The whole scene would be captured by a pool of photographers who had been summoned for the meeting.
But the Dunns would have none of it and refused to meet her. Dunn family spokesman Radd Seiger said that the family felt “ambushed” when the “bombshell” was dropped that Sacoolas was next door.
Donald Trump, of course, has no human empathy whatsoever so this sleazy reality show move is unsurprising. The surprising bit is that there is no one left in the White House to tell him what a bad idea this was.
You can almost imagine the reality-show excitement that surely went into the ill-considered plan to introduce Anne Sacoolas, the American diplomatic wife who killed 19-year-old motorcyclist Harry Dunn when she drove down the wrong side of an English lane in August, to Dunn’s grieving parents. Sacoolas left the U.K. in early September under diplomatic-immunity protections and has not been seen in public since.
The Dunn family, now in the United States to drum up support to send Sacoolas back to the U.K. to face justice, had accepted an “urgent” invitation by the White House from National Security Adviser Robert O’Brien, to visit Donald Trump in Washington, D.C., on Tuesday night.
President Trump said Wednesday that he had arranged the meeting at the request of British Prime Minister Boris Johnson. Speaking at a joint press conference with Italian President Sergio Mattarella, he described the encounter as “beautiful in a certain way,” adding that he expressed condolences “on behalf of our country. ”
He then admitted that he tried to get the family to meet Sacoolas, who was waiting in an adjacent room. “I offered to bring the person in question in,” he said. “And they weren’t ready for it.”
Trump, it seems, thought he could convince the Dunns to meet the woman who killed their son, and would do so by opening a side door through which she would walk. The whole scene would be captured by a pool of photographers who had been summoned for the meeting.
But the Dunns would have none of it and refused to meet her. Dunn family spokesman Radd Seiger said that the family felt “ambushed” when the “bombshell” was dropped that Sacoolas was next door.
Donald Trump, of course, has no human empathy whatsoever so this sleazy reality show move is unsurprising. The surprising bit is that there is no one left in the White House to tell him what a bad idea this was.
Yeah, he opined there must be lawyers involved. As opposed to, like, the fucking obvious.
He also blamed Boris for the idea, which 10 Downing Street has denied. Hard to know who's lying there, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to BoJo on this one.
What word do other countries use for their fellow countrymen?
Well, according to one of your countrymen that I once had a fruitless debate with online - not here but on another site - as a British citizen I didn't really have the right to refer to myself that way. I wasn't a citizen but a 'subject' because we still have a monarchy and so aren't as 'free' as those as fortunate as he was to be a citizen of the USA.
I was polite ...
FWIW, I couldn't see what was particularly 'American' about your use of the term 'citizen' in relation to the way people are allegedly treated at airports.
If it was part of a discussion about constitutions and forms of government and citizenship and so on, then perhaps there would be something discernibly American or British, French, Egyptian, Maltese, Russian or Australian or whatever else that might emerge.
As it is, I'm a tad mystified by Leorning Cnight's comment.
It's more that other countries don't seem quite so keen to distinguish between their fellow countrymen and foreigners when it comes to abuse of authority by government agencies. My experience is that Americans are quick to point out that it is a citizen that is being abused, whereas Europeans are more likely to talk about it being a person.
I don't think most Americans who talk this way mean to imply that it's OK if a non-citizen is being abused - I think it's mostly a habit of American speech - but as a non-citizen living in the US, it's one that stands out to me.
The family in question look as though they might be Travellers, which might explain a bit.
If you look at where this happened on Google street view, on the one hand it is clearly extremely simple to cross the border in this neighbourhood and conceivably possible to mistakenly do so. On the other hand it's hard to imagine being in that particular vicinity and a) not being aware one is on the border b) having any reason for being there other than visiting some place extremely local or, um, attempting to cross the border.
(Or being a border freak, it has a fascinating draw for me, but then I've always been fascinated by borders)
Is there any evidence for this $16k other than the say-so of the agency in question, which is widely distrusted within the United States for its proved abuse of citizens at airports?
Probably not, since on CBP’s theory the family deliberately crossed the border illegally and in the process failed to report a reportable (>10k) amount of currency. As I understand matters, non-reporting is in itself enough to support confiscation, even if the border crossing was otherwise legal (and even if the cash itself was legal...).
Curiously, apparently Canada refused to take them back which is one reason they ended up stuck in detention for so long.
Either these people got really, really unlucky or they were up to something that they should have foreseen would get them into trouble if they were caught.
The US border is an intimidating enough thing, and staffed by intimidating enough people, even when crossing legally and in possession of all the proper paperwork. You don't mess with those guys.
I've seen CBP's video now, which is inconclusive. There's an American road and a Canadian road running parallel to each other, with a dozen or so feet of grass ditch between them. The US side appears to be slightly downhill of the Canadian side.
The video doesn't show how the car entered the ditch, but given the layout, if one were to enter the ditch accidentally, it would seem easier to continue forwards onto the road in front of you rather than trying to back out. There are, I am told, no clear indications that the road on the other side of the ditch is in the USA.
CBP claims the family entered the US on purpose. The family claim it was an accident. The video provides no information either way. The only thing that might suggest motive is whether the $16K that they were carrying was in US or Canadian currency - it would seem unusual at best for a UK family holidaying in Canada to carry a significant sum in US currency and nothing in Canadian.
Probably not, since on CBP’s theory the family deliberately crossed the border illegally and in the process failed to report a reportable (>10k) amount of currency.
As the family comprised two couples, with their children, would the money have been reportable if each couple had $8,000?
Probably not, since on CBP’s theory the family deliberately crossed the border illegally and in the process failed to report a reportable (>10k) amount of currency.
As the family comprised two couples, with their children, would the money have been reportable if each couple had $8,000?
The limits are per family group travelling together. So yes.
They are not travelling at speed or swerving to avoid anything immediately ahead of them.
And as posted earlier, I find it hard to believe one could find oneself on that road for any reason other than either visiting somebody one knew on it, or attempting a border crossing, and just as hard to believe in unawareness of the general proximity of the border.
This story reminds me of the inmate transferred to my jail for an attempted escape who mournfully explained to me "I was in the exercise yard, and suddenly somehow found myself on the other side of the fence".
An unexpected warp in the space-time continuum, no doubt...
That's the most generous thing that can be said in this family's favour. Much as we find migration officials and authorities in most countries to be "difficult" it's very hard to accept the family's position on this.
They are not travelling at speed or swerving to avoid anything immediately ahead of them.
I see the car appear from the left, and come to a stop before moving slowly through the ditch. What I can't see is whether the car stopped on the roadway, or whether it was already in the ditch. I'd imagine with daytime images from the same camera, you could work it out. Although the more I think about it, if someone did come off the road and decide to drive across the grass to get to another road, I might expect them to step out of the car and look at how the land lay first. So the more I think about it, the more their story smells.
For me, the smoking gun would be the currency that the $16K was in. If it's USD, they were up to no good.
It's more that other countries don't seem quite so keen to distinguish between their fellow countrymen and foreigners when it comes to abuse of authority by government agencies. My experience is that Americans are quick to point out that it is a citizen that is being abused, whereas Europeans are more likely to talk about it being a person.
I don't think most Americans who talk this way mean to imply that it's OK if a non-citizen is being abused - I think it's mostly a habit of American speech - but as a non-citizen living in the US, it's one that stands out to me.
Your experience is limited, then.
And it seems like a very odd point to be making.
Seems like a lot of work to go through to cross illegally into the United States when there are towns straddling the border in many places where you can just drive across.
He also blamed Boris for the idea, which 10 Downing Street has denied. Hard to know who's lying there, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to BoJo on this one.
Whosever idea it was it was, I would've thought, obviously completely crass; almost cruel, to land that on a grieving family, in that manner. What if they had been so caught out, or felt compelled to say 'yes', and gone through to see the woman, and all hell ensued? Who would Trump have blamed for that? The parents?
I think the parents' response was remarkably gracious.
I noticed they also expressed concern for the woman who (allegedly) killed their son, and said that kind of meeting wouldn't be fair to *her*, either.
US presidents and administrations do sometimes intervene in difficult situations. Remember Obama's Beer Summit? But, as to be expected, T handled this very, very badly. I don't know if his staff had any control, or even input. But he wouldn't have listened, anyway.
I felt sorry for the mom, having to shake his hand.
(shudder)
It's not that weird to come to Canada with US dollars. It is easy to buy US dollars everywhere on the planet. OTOH, I doubt you could walk in and buy Canadian dollars at a bank anywhere but large or capital cities in Europe, Asia, South America, or Africa. If you're going to Canada, it will usually be more convenient to buy US currency at home and then exchange upon arrival (or as you need it) in Canada.
Using cash has advantages, such as not getting screwed by credit card companies with every purchase - you will always get a better rate at the bank than you will when Visa or MasterCard calculate exchange on your transactions.
It's not that weird to come to Canada with US dollars. It is easy to buy US dollars everywhere on the planet. OTOH, I doubt you could walk in and buy Canadian dollars at a bank anywhere but large or capital cities in Europe, Asia, South America, or Africa. If you're going to Canada, it will usually be more convenient to buy US currency at home and then exchange upon arrival (or as you need it) in Canada.
Using cash has advantages, such as not getting screwed by credit card companies with every purchase - you will always get a better rate at the bank than you will when Visa or MasterCard calculate exchange on your transactions.
No. If you do £ or € to USA $ then to Cdn $, you will pay the most in exchange. Two transactions. This is poor advice.
Best if you haven't preplanned, you go to a bank machine, insert card, with withdraw local currency. Done this with Canadian bank card throughout Europe in € and non-€ countries, UK, USA, South America. Do it in an airport at a machine which displays a symbol like Interact or whatever system your card coordinates with. Aware that it's the same in most of Asia. By far best way and lowest rate.
And no, you do not always get penalized with a credit card. It's forbidden for merchants to charge a credit card and bank card premium in North America, and dependent on your card choice you get the best exchange rate versus a worse one. Unless the credit card companies have vastly different rules across the world. Vendors can negotiate the card fees they pay. They may not charge an additional amount to customers.
It's not that weird to come to Canada with US dollars. It is easy to buy US dollars everywhere on the planet. OTOH, I doubt you could walk in and buy Canadian dollars at a bank anywhere but large or capital cities in Europe, Asia, South America, or Africa. If you're going to Canada, it will usually be more convenient to buy US currency at home and then exchange upon arrival (or as you need it) in Canada.
Not in the UK it won't. Canadian dollars are pretty easy to obtain, because most bureaux de change are national chains (e.g. The Post Office). So even if the office in Smalltown-on-the-Wold doesn't happen to have Canadian dollars behind the counter, it can always order them from head office.
Comments
ICE spokes-idiot: “It is the responsibility of an individual traveling in the vicinity of an international border to maintain awareness of their surroundings and their location at all times to ensure they do not illegally cross the border,”
Or, alternatively, Border Police could choose not to be dicks. I know they won't, but it seems reasonable to remind people that choosing to be reasonable is actually an option.
There appears to be more to this than was first reported.
What I find more curious is the statement: Two attempts to contact the UK consulate were "unsuccessful"????? What? The UK consulate doesn't have a phone answering service?? Or an answering machine? What does "unsuccessful" mean?
I think the point is - why were they carrying a large amount of American currency if they were holidaying in Canada and entered America accidentally, whilst swerving to avoid a moose? People don't usually obtain currency for a country they have no intention of visiting.
You might want to be careful there - is the implication "brown people more likely to be refused entry by USA" or "brown people more likely to try to sneak illegally into USA"?
None of the articles are clear about what currency this was. There's no reason for a British family on holiday in Canada to carry any quantity of US currency; carrying Canadian currency is more understandable. So there's evidence of intent in the details of the currency that they were carrying.
It's hard to see who else would be in a position to have evidence of this $16K (in whatever currency).
I'll note in passing that your use of "citizen" here seems to me to be rather distinctively American.
Another account from The Daily Beast.
Donald Trump, of course, has no human empathy whatsoever so this sleazy reality show move is unsurprising. The surprising bit is that there is no one left in the White House to tell him what a bad idea this was.
Yeah, he opined there must be lawyers involved. As opposed to, like, the fucking obvious.
Well, according to one of your countrymen that I once had a fruitless debate with online - not here but on another site - as a British citizen I didn't really have the right to refer to myself that way. I wasn't a citizen but a 'subject' because we still have a monarchy and so aren't as 'free' as those as fortunate as he was to be a citizen of the USA.
I was polite ...
FWIW, I couldn't see what was particularly 'American' about your use of the term 'citizen' in relation to the way people are allegedly treated at airports.
If it was part of a discussion about constitutions and forms of government and citizenship and so on, then perhaps there would be something discernibly American or British, French, Egyptian, Maltese, Russian or Australian or whatever else that might emerge.
As it is, I'm a tad mystified by Leorning Cnight's comment.
I don't think most Americans who talk this way mean to imply that it's OK if a non-citizen is being abused - I think it's mostly a habit of American speech - but as a non-citizen living in the US, it's one that stands out to me.
If you look at where this happened on Google street view, on the one hand it is clearly extremely simple to cross the border in this neighbourhood and conceivably possible to mistakenly do so. On the other hand it's hard to imagine being in that particular vicinity and a) not being aware one is on the border b) having any reason for being there other than visiting some place extremely local or, um, attempting to cross the border.
(Or being a border freak, it has a fascinating draw for me, but then I've always been fascinated by borders)
Did they give it back?
Curiously, apparently Canada refused to take them back which is one reason they ended up stuck in detention for so long.
Either these people got really, really unlucky or they were up to something that they should have foreseen would get them into trouble if they were caught.
The video doesn't show how the car entered the ditch, but given the layout, if one were to enter the ditch accidentally, it would seem easier to continue forwards onto the road in front of you rather than trying to back out. There are, I am told, no clear indications that the road on the other side of the ditch is in the USA.
CBP claims the family entered the US on purpose. The family claim it was an accident. The video provides no information either way. The only thing that might suggest motive is whether the $16K that they were carrying was in US or Canadian currency - it would seem unusual at best for a UK family holidaying in Canada to carry a significant sum in US currency and nothing in Canadian.
As the family comprised two couples, with their children, would the money have been reportable if each couple had $8,000?
The limits are per family group travelling together. So yes.
They are not travelling at speed or swerving to avoid anything immediately ahead of them.
And as posted earlier, I find it hard to believe one could find oneself on that road for any reason other than either visiting somebody one knew on it, or attempting a border crossing, and just as hard to believe in unawareness of the general proximity of the border.
This story reminds me of the inmate transferred to my jail for an attempted escape who mournfully explained to me "I was in the exercise yard, and suddenly somehow found myself on the other side of the fence".
That's the most generous thing that can be said in this family's favour. Much as we find migration officials and authorities in most countries to be "difficult" it's very hard to accept the family's position on this.
I see the car appear from the left, and come to a stop before moving slowly through the ditch. What I can't see is whether the car stopped on the roadway, or whether it was already in the ditch. I'd imagine with daytime images from the same camera, you could work it out. Although the more I think about it, if someone did come off the road and decide to drive across the grass to get to another road, I might expect them to step out of the car and look at how the land lay first. So the more I think about it, the more their story smells.
For me, the smoking gun would be the currency that the $16K was in. If it's USD, they were up to no good.
Your experience is limited, then.
And it seems like a very odd point to be making.
Whosever idea it was it was, I would've thought, obviously completely crass; almost cruel, to land that on a grieving family, in that manner. What if they had been so caught out, or felt compelled to say 'yes', and gone through to see the woman, and all hell ensued? Who would Trump have blamed for that? The parents?
I think the parents' response was remarkably gracious.
I noticed they also expressed concern for the woman who (allegedly) killed their son, and said that kind of meeting wouldn't be fair to *her*, either.
US presidents and administrations do sometimes intervene in difficult situations. Remember Obama's Beer Summit? But, as to be expected, T handled this very, very badly. I don't know if his staff had any control, or even input. But he wouldn't have listened, anyway.
I felt sorry for the mom, having to shake his hand.
(shudder)
Using cash has advantages, such as not getting screwed by credit card companies with every purchase - you will always get a better rate at the bank than you will when Visa or MasterCard calculate exchange on your transactions.
No. If you do £ or € to USA $ then to Cdn $, you will pay the most in exchange. Two transactions. This is poor advice.
Best if you haven't preplanned, you go to a bank machine, insert card, with withdraw local currency. Done this with Canadian bank card throughout Europe in € and non-€ countries, UK, USA, South America. Do it in an airport at a machine which displays a symbol like Interact or whatever system your card coordinates with. Aware that it's the same in most of Asia. By far best way and lowest rate.
And no, you do not always get penalized with a credit card. It's forbidden for merchants to charge a credit card and bank card premium in North America, and dependent on your card choice you get the best exchange rate versus a worse one. Unless the credit card companies have vastly different rules across the world. Vendors can negotiate the card fees they pay. They may not charge an additional amount to customers.
Not in the UK it won't. Canadian dollars are pretty easy to obtain, because most bureaux de change are national chains (e.g. The Post Office). So even if the office in Smalltown-on-the-Wold doesn't happen to have Canadian dollars behind the counter, it can always order them from head office.